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118 Comments
- Zector, on 07/06/2008, -2/+44Doesn't A-GPS just mean it uses a GPS receiver, in conjunction with the GSM triangulation?
I have seen devices like GPS mice and USB GPS for laptops which are rather small. So I believe that it wouldn't be so space consuming that a crippled version of a GPS reciever that couldn't function on its own would be needed.
What I believe A-GPS means is that it uses Triangulation first, and I have no idea how long it takes, to figure out which satellites are optimal for connection, and then connect to the GPS satellite through standard GPS protocols. Which would be nice, since most of my experiences with a GPS device, is having trouble getting it to connect in the first place.
I could be wrong though, I sure hope I'm not. ):
On a side note, I hope they get Installer.app on this iPhone working soon after it releases.
A turn by turn GPS application could always be homebrew for it. - petard, on 07/07/2008, -9/+41A-GPS is just like GPS but with OPTIONAL support of using cell phone towers to get a lock faster. This is just FUD trying to get money form adsense.
- placidified, on 07/07/2008, -1/+28http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-GPS
- amawg9, on 07/07/2008, -2/+25or Manhattan
- stirlo, on 07/07/2008, -1/+21it does have "Real" GPS, just like the nokia n95, A-GPS means that it can lock on to satellites faster, using info from cell tower or wifi networks. If this feature is switched off, the GPS receiver will still lock on to satellites, but will take a little longer.
(in my experience, the nokia takes about 20 seconds to lock on using AGPS, and about 1 - 2 minutes using "normal" ) - Fratz, on 07/06/2008, -5/+22"Doesn't A-GPS just mean it uses a GPS receiver, in conjunction with the GSM triangulation?"
Yes. It's better than a regular GPS in that it can function in environments where the GPS signal doesn't reach. - dalesmatrix, on 07/07/2008, -1/+17Yeah I think the big selling point of A-GPS is that it can acquire your position a lot faster initially, as it gets that first key bit of information (something to do with the current exact time and where the satellites are I think), from the cell towers not from the slow as treacle Satellite connection. From that point on it's regular GPS as far as I know.
- codelogic, on 07/07/2008, -1/+15"Some A-GPS solutions require an active connection to a cell phone (or other data) network to function, in others it simply makes positioning faster and more accurate, but is not required."
Which type is iPhone's GPS receiver? A GPS receiver that _needs_ cellular signal to tell you where you are is not a full fledged GPS in my books. Especially if it is to function on travel and treks. - Fratz, on 07/06/2008, -1/+13"I could see Apple taking the market right out from underneath the existing players."
Not if they charge a monthly fee for navigation services, as hinted at in the article. Most GPS units don't require any subscription fees, unless you get one that updates map data automatically or gets real-time traffic info. - dagamer34, on 07/07/2008, -1/+13Cities with high rise buildings won't get a good GPS signal because of multi-path (GPS signals bouncing off of skyscrapers).
- HuskyPuzzle, on 07/06/2008, -4/+15Really interesting. I could see Apple taking the market right out from underneath the existing players.
I hope we can keep our privacy intact when these networks know where I am, who I'm talking to, what I'm saying, all my email, photos and video.
But how could anyone not want all that in a phone... "Convenience", is also a bitch. - knuckles, on 07/07/2008, -6/+16***** ROGERS!
- Nar1117, on 07/07/2008, -1/+10I will be very disappointed in Apple if they decide to charge users for turn-by-turn directions via GPS. Also, what would be the point of restricting developers from selling GPS software if Apple itself does not have a clear plan for the GPS capabilities of the iPhone? It seems to me that the only reason would be that, as the article suggests, Apple either a) has their own software ready to roll out, or b) has made a deal for 3rd party dedicated development.
In a perfect world, they would out-source the software development to Garmin or TomTom, and they would not charge for the software. But there's gotta be a catch. - RyeBrye, on 07/07/2008, -1/+10@Cytranic
You have obviously not ever used GPS. GPS signals do not propagate very well through any kind of solid surface - i.e. car roof, building... etc - you basically have to have a clear view of the sky for it to work.
Last time I checked, the set of places in the world that do not have a clear view of the sky is much larger than hell or under the ocean. - codelogic, on 07/07/2008, -0/+8dagamer34, if you read that quote properly, it clearly states that some A-GPS receivers _need_ an active connection i.e. cell / other data signal (not the GPS signal) to function.
Yes, I have used a GPS, I use a non-assisted GPS quite regularly. My GPS locks on in 20-30 seconds, it doesn't take 1-2 mins.
Do you have information on what type of GPS receiver is in the iPhone 3G to confirm that it definitely does not need a cellular signal? - grizwald, on 07/07/2008, -1/+7why do people talk about things they obviously have no knowledge about?
- codelogic, on 07/07/2008, -1/+7@stirlo, there's more to A-GPS that quicker locking.
What Arstechnic is getting at is that some A-GPS modules need to be online (connected to a cell tower) to function at a minimum and there is no information on what kind the iPhone's GPS unit is.
If it's like the N95 that doesn't need a cellular signal to function, then the iPhone 3G can replace a hand held GPS in many cases. If not, then it's misleading to many, especially to those thinking of replacing their current GPS unit with an iPhone. - Tenoq, on 07/07/2008, -1/+7I had a TomTom One in the office for testing recently - it wouldn't get GPS signal inside the building. We're only a double storey block too...
- LukeBeaumont, on 07/07/2008, -0/+6I was very apprehensive about the whole 'no turn-by-turn' GPS software, but I used a phone the other day that didn't have any, it just used google maps (like the iPhone, I am presuming) and it did what a wanted to. Turn-by-turn would be nice, but Google maps will probably do it for me.
That said, if it can be jailbroken to run a homebrew turn-by-turn app, I will definitely do that. - ethon, on 07/07/2008, -0/+6The only problem with that DivisibleByZero is that Apple specifically states in the iPhone 2.x SDK that you are not allowed to distribute software that does turn-by-turn directions using the location services. (And you can't use it to control UAVs and such)
"Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices, dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or live-saving purposes." - codelogic, on 07/07/2008, -0/+6csnoke, not all A-GPS solutions can fallback to function as a regular GPS, at least not according to Wikipedia (yes Wikipedia can be edited blah blah). Based on the entry (which has absolutely nothing to do with the iPhone), certain tasks are offloaded to the "Assistance Server". This eases the burden on the actual GPS unit because it doesn't have to perform those tasks. Quoting Wikipedia:
* The Assistance Server can locate the phone roughly by what cell site it is connected to on the cellular network.
* The Assistance Server has a good satellite signal, and lots of computation power, so it can compare fragmentary signals relayed to it by cell phones, with the satellite signal it receives directly, and then inform the cell phone or emergency services of the cell phone's position.
* It can supply orbital data for the GPS satellites to the cell phone, enabling the cell phone to lock to the satellites when it otherwise could not, and autonomously calculate its position.
* By having accurate, surveyed coordinates for the cell site towers, it can have better knowledge of ionospheric conditions and other errors affecting the GPS signal than the cell phone alone, enabling more precise calculation of position. (See also Wide Area Augmentation System)
Wikipedia also states "some A-GPS solutions require an active connection to a cell phone (or other data) network to function" which would make sense if the GPS unit relies exclusively on the Assistance Server for information. - and303, on 07/07/2008, -1/+6The 'A' in A-GPS stands for assisted. My HTC Tilt has this as well. If it can find a cellular tower nearby, it'll simply be able to use that to help it position itself faster and even modify temporary settings based on ionospheric conditions and all sorts of other variables that effect your satellite signal.
Unless this article is using the wrong terms, then you shouldn't have any problem using the GPS without a cellular signal. Unless of course you can only use Google maps, which needs to stream data via mobile signal. - OrangeCrush, on 07/07/2008, -0/+4AFAIK, the iPhone doesn't store its own map data--it all comes over the air from Google. So even if the GPS can get coordinates without a network, it can't draw you a map.
- dagamer34, on 07/07/2008, -1/+5The infrastructure needed for turn-by-turn navigation is what entire companies are built on. It's likely that Apple will allow companies that specialize in GPS navigation systems to make the software (since they make a business doing so).
The important thing is that the hardware is in there. That's the beauty of software. It can be added and updated at a later time. - mlerner, on 07/07/2008, -3/+7You can bet one of the GPS software manufacturers will port to the iPhone.
- estvir, on 07/07/2008, -0/+4TomTom has had GPS software ready for the iPhone 2.0 since it was announced.
http://www.gpsreview.net/tomtom-for-iphone/
I think it all comes down to whether Apple will exercise it's usual "Screw you, do it our way" style or not. - csnoke, on 07/07/2008, -3/+7The problem here is in the lack of a basic understanding of how GPS works and what is required to use it. A GPS receiver, no matter if it's a cheap A-GPS or a $30k dual frequency unit, will only give you an accurate position if you have a clear view of the sky. In downtown areas and indoors ALL GPS (including "real" GPS) units will have difficulty positioning you, in those situations A-GPS can be used (via cell-tower triangulation or wi-fi IP) to calculate an approximate position for you. This is an enhanced feature, above and beyond what a standard GPS is capable of, and it is the best possible solution to finding your position.
Don't think of A-GPS as a "fake GPS" it's just indoor assisted, to give you a position when a clear view of the sky isn't possible. - beerbarron, on 07/06/2008, -5/+9glad I read this, almost traded in my satnav for this :-s begging the point do I really need to upgrade. If however I do see garmin or tom tom releasing, then there's a strong possibility I will upgrade.
. - ethon, on 07/07/2008, -0/+4Some of these comments have made me lose (yet more) faith in humanity.
- unknownohm, on 07/07/2008, -1/+4I don't recall Indiana Jones ever using an iphone in his quests
- russ3, on 07/07/2008, -0/+3Maybe I am missing something here, but my iphone 1 has simple turn by turn directions, but because the location is not updated I have to push the next button myself. Why will the iphone with GPS not be constantly updating its position? It seems like this will be such a simple feature that it is already in there.
- grizwald, on 07/07/2008, -2/+5all "usefull" gps units are A-GPS. Especially the more expensive ones. Without it, it takes 5 - 10 minutes to obtain a GPS lock. Most GPS units do not use Cell Tower / Wifi info for a initial general location. They use things like last position, or State or something to determine the best almanac to use when searching for an initial GPS lock.
The GPS needs to know the time, and a general location of where you are at to get a decent fix in less than 5 minutes. - OrangeCrush, on 07/07/2008, -0/+3My $100 Magellan Maestro 3100 locks on in a minute or so, sometimes take a couple minutes if I'm more than a few miles away from the location I previously used it. No A-GPS, no subscription, just a standalone device looking for the regular GPS satellites.
- Burn, on 07/07/2008, -0/+3Good question. If the iPhone had only the Mobile Tower triangulation style location system then they would have been advertising that feature on the original iPhone too, since it could also do this (And so can any S60 phone running Google Maps like my Nokia 6120c).
They are advertising it as a new feature, clearly this is not just Mobile Tower triangulation. - Patrikimo, on 07/07/2008, -0/+2Turn by turn isn't just that easy. It requires a large database of roads and direction the closest non-proprietary software uses a government database from the census bureau which does not contains only the roads and not the directions (it assumes all roads are bi-directional). Turn by turn sofware and dbs in the open source world are somewhat subpar.
I guess you could use Google or some other web service as a backend for the data but since that is what is already happening for the default routing software I don't know what you'd gain from doing that. - alittleroy101, on 07/07/2008, -0/+2
Some people need to travel for work. Sometimes they need to travel a lot, and in cities that are unfamiliar. Sometimes, people for work just need to go to many different locations within one state or metro area, but could use directions once close to the address.
I happen to use turn by turn all the time. I love it. If the iPhone would have it, it would be an amazing device. I suspect the iPhone will get it too. - Muyoso, on 07/07/2008, -0/+2Yea, because I want to be staring at my phone as I drive in an area I am not familiar with. Are you serious? GPS without turn by turn and voice abilities is little more than a toy.
- OrangeCrush, on 07/07/2008, -0/+2It should be able to pull coordinates, but where will it get the map data from?
- mbraynard, on 07/07/2008, -1/+3AGPS is over-rated. I have a GPS device in my Ipaq 6945. It can get the satalite signal inside my house or buried inside my car's glove box. The only place is doesn't get a lock within about 10-20 seconds is when I am underground under a tunnel of some kind.
- inactive, on 07/07/2008, -1/+3The author is speculating on subscription but didn't offer anything to substantiate that.
- CCUboogernjit, on 07/07/2008, -0/+2thats currently written on the digg schedule but you know these things always change at the last second.
- inactive, on 07/07/2008, -0/+2But not many people will want to download the 1gb+ SDK AND compile it themselves AND pay $99 just to get it on their iPhone.
- ethon, on 07/07/2008, -1/+3To me it seems pretty obvious why the no turn-by-turn software clause is in the SDK ToS. I'm sure Apple has already marked or will mark a deal with one of the primary PND players to put their nav software with preloaded (meaning no cell reception required) maps on the iPhone. I guess the question comes in, will they charge a flat fee for that software, or a subscription.
Let's say Apple sells 5 million 3G iPhones. (Time to make up some stats for the sake of argument). I think a fair estimate would be that 50% of those 5 million customers would spend $50 to have this feature on their iPhone. 2.5 million users spending $50 a pop...they're looking at $125,000,000 gross sales, and thats if they don't decide to charge a subscription fee for new/updated maps. - ZimbuTheMonkey, on 07/07/2008, -2/+4Forbidding a legitimate use of the built-in GPS in their SDK agreement is just shady. There is no fair reason to do so, it can only be for reasons of potential profit with in-house developed software or a pre-existing partnership with a third party.
They tout the ease of use and power of their SDK, but I bet a lot of the the really cool ***** will be restricted from being sold or freely distributed on the app store. - EtherGnat, on 07/07/2008, -1/+3GPS can be used for much more than just getting you from point A to B. Everything from geotagging your photos to notifying you of an upcoming appointment far enough in advance to get there from wherever you happen to be to reminding you you need a six pack of Red Bull when you're near the store.
As GPS becomes a part of every day life applications will be developed that most people have never dreamed of to take advantage of it. It will quickly become an indispensable part of everyday life. - ThatDustyGuy, on 07/07/2008, -1/+3So I'm guessing Apple will probably sell an app enabling turn by turn voice guidance seeing as it the phone won't help me when driving in the car.
- kineticworm, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1you really suck at commenting. you should cancel your account.
- CCUboogernjit, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
I love my PSP just not the company who wrote the ***** software for it. Why cant we have streaming video,divx support,youtube support or even flickr viewer? because SONY is a greedy lazy ass media conglomerate who just happened to make a decent portable. - locojones, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1lol Why? They can sit back, look at the iphone and say "If you people want turn by turn directions, real time traffic data, etc. then buy one of our devices, otherwise enjoy your GPS-lite." It wouldn't make one bit of sense for them to sabotage their own products to support someone elses.
- DigDugDigger, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1Especially aserer511's bomb comment about 2 posts above yours. While everyone else is [needlessly] debating the meaning of A-GPS, what is going through this guy's head? How to make a bomb with an iPhone. Amazing.
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