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Steve Jobs email response re: lack of Firewire on MacBooks

edibleapple.com — Steve Jobs responds to an email from someone criticizing the lack of Firewire on the new Macbooks.

Who dugg this? Made popular Oct 17, 2008

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  • dtpollitt, on 10/16/2008, -24/+114i think you just got served by steve
  • hectord27, on 10/17/2008, -12/+91Umm....firewire isn't dead.
  • bjdowns, on 10/17/2008, -3/+79The lack of Firewire/1394 is a huge disappointment for Mac users. I personally use a Macbook Pro, and would continue to do so, but 1394a still has many uses in the lower-priced market.

    Most of my external HDDs are daisy-chained using 1394a. You can't do that with USB. 1394a is also a faster protocol when moving large files around, like video.

    Most prosumer camcorders use 1394a. Sure, if you want to use a soccer-mom camera, it may record on miniDVDs, or may connect via USB. However, if anybody is serious about video, 1394a is THE standard.
  • boogieordie, on 10/17/2008, -0/+60Oh please, for $1300 they could have put in a firewire port. They didn't want to because they want all the AV people to shell out the extra money for the pro.
  • FuZi0nDET, on 10/17/2008, -2/+52I haven't seen a tape based HD camcorder yet that uses USB. On top of that are people supposed to rush out and buy new camcorders with their new firewire-less notebooks?
  • AanaknSkywalker, on 10/17/2008, -6/+51firewire is still better.
  • omenmedia, on 10/17/2008, -0/+36The real crux of the problem here concerns DV-based camcorders. Most DV camcorders require FireWire for computer control and video transfer - some may use USB 2.0, but they have been traditionally FireWire. Now, why this is an absolutely stupid decision by Apple is because removing FireWire actually hurts the more professional camera users. New camcorders seem to be going down the path of HDD and SSD storage, but most semi-professional camera operators, as far as I know, still use DV tape. Why? Simply because it is a superior method for storing a lot of video, without MPEG2 compression, and it takes 10 seconds to swap tapes when you need to record more footage. With the newer camcorders, you continually need to transfer data from the device to free up space. By removing FireWire support, Apple has shot itself in the foot in this regard, because any semi-professional camera operator won't be able to use their device with these new MacBooks. At least this is my take on it, though I might be wrong... opinions?
  • tofslie, on 10/17/2008, -0/+36Firewire's strength is its steady stream of data. USB 2 fluctuates which is not good when editing and viewing large amounts of real time data, such as HD Video.
  • inactive, on 10/17/2008, -5/+38It's Steve Jobs' world, you're just livin' in it.
  • moofer, on 10/17/2008, -0/+29One critical feature to firewire that's being ignored is target disk mode. That feature is huge, at least to me... I can boot up any mac off my macbook for repair, diagnostic, or heavy/fast file transfer purposes. Without FW, I don't think I'm good with buying one...

  • chickenloco, on 10/17/2008, -1/+27MIRROR: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs ...
  • AmazingSteve, on 10/17/2008, -0/+20So this guy dies, and goes to Heaven. He's shown around by one of the angels, introduced to Jimmy Hoffa and such, when he see's Steve Jobs out of the corner of his eye ranting, and raving, and barking orders and he says to the angel...
    "Hey, I didn't know Jobs was dead!" To which the Angel replies, "Oh, he's not. That's God, he just thinks he's Steve Jobs..."
  • AanaknSkywalker, on 10/17/2008, -1/+19Firewire to USB adapters do not exist. They are fundamentally different technologies.
  • inactive, on 10/17/2008, -1/+17Dropping Firewire from the new Macbooks is counter to Apple's push of iLife as the "digital lifestyle" suite, particularly iMovie and GarageBand; these aren't PRO apps, they're consumer apps, aimed at the average user. How is the average user supposed to get their digital content onto their laptops from their Firewire devices if there's no Firewire port? Buying the bottom-of-the-rung laptop for superior connectivity is just counter-intuitive as hell. As a user of a Firewire audio interface - which is EASILY the industry standard over USB2.0, at least until you get to the highest-end interfaces for large pro studios - I'll have to wait longer than anticipated to upgrade my laptop.

    Sorry, but it sucks. Inevitable in time, yes; but this is not how Apple should be pushing the envelope.
  • Universal, on 10/17/2008, -1/+16Even the $599 Mac mini has a Firewire port.
  • AanaknSkywalker, on 10/17/2008, -1/+15If you've ever used them in the real world in ways that demand performance reliability, firewire is the clear winner.
  • sonicularulus, on 10/17/2008, -0/+14yes, but the beauty of firewire is that it holds a steady data rate while USB speeds up and slows down depending on the availability of CPU resources so in terms of reliability, Firewire does the better job, that's why people like me are upset about it.
  • colincornaby, on 10/17/2008, -0/+14sjobs@apple.com is actually his email address. Try emailing it sometime. You'll either get a reply from someone in executive relations, or sometimes Steve himself.

    When I had a Powerbook that kept dying, I emailed sjobs@apple.com. A few days later I had a new Powerbook.

    (But don't abuse the power. It's nice that he has a public email address.)
  • colincornaby, on 10/16/2008, -4/+16Not fake. Engadget verified the headers.
  • rolf, on 10/17/2008, -0/+12I'm angry my Honda isn't as luxurious as an Acura.
  • rpeters, on 10/17/2008, -3/+15Even my 500 dollar lenovo has a firewire...and more USB's...
  • hollywoodphony, on 10/17/2008, -4/+16Well, as someone who's not a mac fan boy and isn't just talking out of his ass, feel free to digg me down without reading what I have to say. Until apple starts making 12 or 13 inch mbps, people are going to continue to use macbooks for uploading and editing on location. Or they would, if they still included a firewire port that's compatible with most of the prosumer cameras actually being used to make the videos you watch online. This is pretty similar to that ***** about macbooks not being designed to run a program that come pre-installed with (garageband). I mean really, fanboys, you honestly think that's an acceptable practice?
  • crodulfo, on 10/17/2008, -0/+10Lack of firewire 400 was my biggest let down as an audio engineer and a music producer since most of my hard drives are firewire 400. . . he did mention of a plug that is used to convert FW400 - FW 800 (not sure if thats the plug or FW400 - USB). . . not convert but be able to be used. . . . so wonder what the peformance of that is like.
  • Urkel, on 10/17/2008, -3/+13Steve also said "FireWire is the future". So I think everyone got "served" by steves flip-flopping.

    Now off I go to buy yet another $20 dongle for my new Macbook. Wait... it's now $30? You got me again Jobs-o.
  • kinerry, on 10/17/2008, -1/+11sadly that has no bearing on this situation at all
  • deadnoob, on 10/17/2008, -3/+13Because its the cheapest laptop Apple makes.
  • ExSlashdotter, on 10/17/2008, -0/+10NOT buying a new Macbook is an option, for now.

    If you're invested in the platform, you're eventually going to need a new system. Its not like FW is gone *for the time being*. Its gone from now on.

    Try recording audio (protools, logic, cubase, whatever) without firewire. I dare you.

    We're just upset that the path apple has gone down is a path that audio and video users (not even pros) can't follow.
  • kitsua, on 10/17/2008, -0/+9*****. If you're on stage or location recording, the 13" form-factor is perfect, and the specs of the machine are more than capable of handling plenty of dense audio sessions.

    I used to recommend the MacBook as a no-brainer to people starting out with a cheap audio interface and pluggin their guitar into Garageband, or whatever. Seeing as it's pretty much essential to have a firewire external drive to stream and record your audio files from and to, I can't now recommend the new MacBooks, especially as a huge portion of the audio interfaces available are firewire also.

    Not including firewire in this revision is pointlessly cruel and I, as an Mac user, am thoroughly disappointed and angry at Steve Jobs right now.
  • ExSlashdotter, on 10/17/2008, -0/+9@ez12a

    Yeah, TDM via USB has been on the new intel machines, but its been confirmed that it WON'T be included with the new nvidia-based machines.

    There is no TDM at all on the new Macbook.

    BTW, dont forget, a Mac with a disc in the optical drive becomes an external optical drive while its in TDM. Super-helpful for troubleshooting or reinstalling an OS on a laptop with a dead optical (or a macbook air with no optical).

    //IT guy at an 80% mac shop.
  • jerrycan, on 10/17/2008, -1/+10I'm not buying another video camera, but I am buying another laptop.
  • CoreyTamas, on 10/17/2008, -4/+13Here's the thing.

    If you're getting a new laptop, you're getting something that's newer and more up-to-date than the old one. And this is *why* you buy it. Your other gear won't update itself just because you get a new laptop. It has to be updated as well if the laptop doesn't support it.

    If you're not ready to update your gear, don't paint yourself into a corner with the laptop you buy. Why? Because it all has to be upgraded together or you lose functionality.

    Remember: NOT buying a new Macbook is an option if you're not ready to make that jump.
  • AMD64MM, on 10/17/2008, -5/+13Mirror?
  • irishjays, on 10/17/2008, -2/+10Announced today the new Jaguar iX200
    PR person,
    "These fine automobiles are the next best thing in design, completely aerodynamic, a whole new process, completely seamless, just amazing.

    We are releasing two options, the "iX200 sport," which boasts a turbo charged v8 engine, perfect for all driving, with enough power to push you to the limit of your driving ability.

    The other model is the ix200 commute, which has a powerful V6 engine, perfect for people on the go, who want a little zip to get back and forth from the office in style. It has all the tools you need to do just that. Any questions?"

    Journalist, "Yeah, uh, these cars are amazing looking, but"

    PR, "But what, look at how nice they look and run"

    J, "Yes, they do just that, but the v6 model doesn't have any headlights, in fact, there isn't even a place where someone could install headlights.:

    PR, "Yes, indeed, we here at Jaguar designed this car for the commuter, who drives during the day. Amazing, yes! We are revolutionizing the industry."

    J, "Well what if you want to drive at night, in style and all that."

    PR, "Simple, you upgrade to this, the Jaguar iX200 Sport, the greatest innovation in cars ever conceived."

    J, "But that car is $8000 more than the other model."

    PR, "Of course, because it has a turbo charged V8, heated and cooled cupholders, and this little midget give you backrubs during your drive time, it's an innovation, look here, see how easy it is to access the engine and make an upgrade to a few choice components, you can just swap them out."

    J, "But if you don't need a midget to rub your back, and you want headlights."

    PR, "Driving at night is when the normal person should be sleeping, we here at Jaguar recognize the needs of our customers, and a good nights sleep is a key to happiness, just like a key the the Jaguar ix is."

    J, "Oh, Ok, so pay $8000, for headlights."

    PR, "and Little Jimmy here"

    J, "But I'll never use Jimmy, in fact, having a midget live in my car kinda freaks me out, can I get rid of him, sell him if I'm never going to use such a feature?"

    PR, "No, Jimmy's heart is wired to a proximity RFID chip, if he leaves the car, he dies. It's the latest and greatest in technology, we at jaguar are changing the way people think about hearts."

    J, ".... "

    PR, "And one more thing! When you order the Jaguar iX 200 Commute, you have the choice to upgrade it to a v8!

    ::: massive applause :::

    J interrupting, "So you can have nearly the same speed as the Sport, but you still can't drive it at night?"

    PR, "Exactly, with the upgrade of $4,000, you do not get the old fashioned option of headlights. If you need headlights you simply pay $8,000 and you get a turbo V8 and headlights."

    J, "This is rediculous! Driving at night is important."

    PR, "Yes, but the majority of people drive during the day. It's proven. And our research shows that in the future, more and more people will continue to drive during the day."

    J, "Forget this I'm out of here."

    Jimmy the midget, "Yea I'm out of here too."

    PR, "Jimmy, no, you can't-- Well, it's O.K. Folks, if this ever happens to you the fine auto technicians at our genius shop can get you a replacement, and Fast! Allow me to go over the new features in our Jaguar Care Plan...."
  • r3zonance, on 10/17/2008, -2/+10Face it, a 1394 chipset is way more expensive than a USB2.0 chipset, simply because the 1394 is more intelligent and has a bit more horsepower behind it in terms of hardware.

    At the CONSUMER level DV is pretty much dead as hard disk recording CONSUMER camcorders are becoming cheap and affordable (more so than the high-end pro cams).

    The MacBook is a CONSUMER notebook, so it will pander towards the CONSUMER connectivity. I thought leaving out Firewire was a massive issue, but then when I thought about, it's seems the right thing to do.

    I seem to recall a similar uproar when Apple ditched some of their connectors in favour of USB only, and look how that turned out.
  • ez12a, on 10/17/2008, -1/+9you can still target boot with USB, its been an option since the Intel switch. Its just 100x slower.
  • inactive, on 10/17/2008, -3/+11He didn't. Scroll down and read his email. You didn't actually think that Jobs would respond in multiple paragraphs, did you?
  • klowngoblin, on 10/17/2008, -6/+14funny, other "entry level" notebooks for less than $800 have firewire still and they arent even by apple
  • faintember, on 10/17/2008, -0/+8NSResponder, as a composer that works almost exclusively with Digital Audio/Electro-acoustic music, the Macbook form factor is very acceptable. It's portable, affordable and has enough memory and speed to handle most everything I need in live performance settings. I have used my first gen Macbook since it's release in many, many performances and it has performed flawlessly.

    However, if I want to upgrade to a Apple laptop in the future I have to spend significantly more money for one feature, FW, lest I want multiple external audio devices to become obsolete. So, I basically have to pay a $1000 tax to be able to run my audio hardware. I find that option less than acceptable.
  • roxgod666, on 10/17/2008, -3/+10My computer cost $500 and it has 1 firewire and 4 usb ports. I can't believe this piece of ***** has more ports than a MBP.
  • fahrvergnuugen, on 10/17/2008, -1/+8That's because you can't capture video (SD or HD) over USB 2 reliably. Any sudden increase in processor usage will cause dropped frames with USB 2.

    Cameras that record to disk can get away with USB 2 because you're not capturing video at 29.97 FPS (playback speed), you're just copying a file from one disk to another.
  • ilgaz, on 10/17/2008, -0/+7If the mail is real (I don't think so), lets say cheap machines doesn't need firewire.
    Apple Time Machine which is a great invention (even Windows guys say) is basically putting every single changed file except user excludes to a huge disk. For huge disks in consumer level, there are 2 options. Firewire or USB 2.
    My extremely conservative time machine contains 235.000 files and the B Tree consists of 1 GB+. Whenever time machine starts backing up, backupd uses 60% of CPU and here is the very interesting part... The USB2 protocol CPU overhead uses 20% CPU. That is listed under kernel_task. Firewire 800 drive which has a massive 60 MB/sec speed uses 4% CPU.
    When cheap macbooks setup first time, user will setup time machine. As the machine is a portable, that USB2 overhead will really hurt. They will have to turn off backing up on the road which breaks the purpose of it.
    USB2 is good for cheap scanners, cheap cameras, cheap printers but not good when you actually need a stable bandwidth with minimum CPU overhead.
    Oh the USB3 will deliver 4.8 gigabit guys... USB2 also claims 480 mbit and yet Firewire 400 (mbit) beats it very easily without the CPU cost. Never ever let a CPU manufacturer design anything like that. If you don't need CPU upgrade every 6 months, Intel will go chapter 11. That is why they make sure it will use even more CPU.
  • DelMonte, on 10/17/2008, -0/+7They did change that, starting with intel machines, which can boot from USB drives.
  • ExSlashdotter, on 10/17/2008, -0/+7I'm not buying another ProTools rack, but I am buying another laptop.

    And if apple abandons FW (and its coming), then what do we have left?
  • vd853, on 10/17/2008, -0/+7I don't get why they just took it off... When I got my Macbook, I didn't think I'll ever be using it, but then I found myself using it quite often! It's even more important now since the new Macbook has a better graphics card, and Adobe will eventually be utilizing it.
  • Me1000, on 10/17/2008, -1/+8because headers are impossible to spoof...

    I'm not saying it is fake. Steve has been known to reply to emails and I believe this is real, but the header information hardly verifies it...
  • Teej, on 10/17/2008, -1/+8JCR, I think the main issue here is that the last Macbook had Firewire, and they've come out with this brand new model and DOWNGRADED IT.
  • omenmedia, on 10/17/2008, -1/+8Um, yeah, because he was really shouting and ranting like a madman there. Calm the ***** down, FuZi0nDET! Your rational comments typed without any Caps Lock whatsoever are just way too much!
  • MScrip, on 10/17/2008, -2/+8Nope, you're right. I'm still using MiniDV. There is still lots of life in tape.

    I'm saddened by the lack of Firewire on Apple's lowest cost Mac. And there's not an ExpressCard slot either. I guess Apple doesn't want you to do audio production or video editing on a cheap Macbook. Maybe that's their way of getting you to buy a $2000 Macbook Pro?

    But it really doesn't matter to me anyway. I use inexpensive Windows machines running Premiere. The DVDs I produce look just as good as something that is "Made on a Mac"

    I would have loved to grab a Macbook to play around with... not anymore.
  • Aupajo, on 10/17/2008, -1/+7I've got one at the moment and I was a bit cautious getting one at first. I asked one of my friends who had one and he said that they were fine, so I went with it.

    Haven't regretted it. Screen looks fine. Any glossiness is counteracted by the much brighter screen they've put out. In fact, I recommend it.
  • kinseyincanada, on 10/17/2008, -4/+10but Apple is not targeting the people who are serious about Video they are targeting soccer moms and the like. Thats why Apple has become so successful cause they are now used for more things then just video editing and music.
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