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- wyldeone, on 10/12/2007, -5/+89The headline and summary are totally misleading. Apple does not support this project, and GTK will _not_ be supported natively in Leopard. Instead, this is a 3rd party company that has an open-source effort to port GTK to quartz and remove dependence on X. While this is still cool, sort of (the resulting applications still have normal GTK widgets instead of the Mac OS X widgets, which mac users hate), it has nothing to do with Apple or Leopard (it works fine on Tiger).
- Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -11/+38I smell front page.
/I believe this is pretty big news - rickcarson, on 10/12/2007, -6/+25Agreed.
The article talks about how great the user experience will be if the apps on Windows + Linux + OSX all look and feel the same way. Yet, for your typical OSX user (if there is such a beast), this will not be an improvement.
So from one point of view, this is great for developers because they could target only a single language/UI to go multi-platform. But for the users, it will be horrible, because the bar is so much higher on OSX in terms of design and conforming to the standards. Eg if they use the 'wrong' keyboard shortcuts that may sound trivial (to you Windows and Linux users where every app has its own bizarre ideas about what key strokes do what (outside of cut and paste which are relatively universal)) but it is actually a big deal.
As for the cross-platform with one language/UI, you can do that in Java now. Because now that it is GPLed even the most rabid extremists in the Linux crowd will no longer have a good reason to exclude it from their distros.
So this move will prompt the same massive rush to cross platform development which GPLing Java did. That is to say - none whatsoever. The people who were going to do their stuff in Java will still do so, and the people who are die hard GTK fanatics will not change their plans either. - WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16Agreed that it's very difficult to use a single interface layout and target Windows, MacOS and Linux. If you're releasing a general-use app to the public at large, if you don't use standard app layout in MacOSX, you will be lynched by irate users and poor reviews. If you use a non-standard keyboard shortcut, get ready for some hate mail. If you ever try to use a 'Wizard' interface, I do not want to be standing near you when you check your support email, for fear of being burned by the flames.
Mac users are very serious about standard and efficient interface design, and you cannot be successful in the Mac market unless you adhere to the norms. If you're releasing a vertical market app for office use, then you can have a bit more flexibility with your choices in interface implementation. If you're releasing an OSX app to the public, however, and want to succeed, you will need to conform to the relatively high standards of interface design for that platform. - bieber, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Hey, I'm with the Mac-ies on the wizard thing. I use Ubuntu, and I recently had to download some Java dev tools for Computer Science, which came as Installshield Wizard .bin files. Hated it sooo much. Not only does it not install with the package manager nicely, but it doesn't even install as a standard Unix app; just dumps executables in a folder in your home directory.
- bigtomrodney, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10And pray tell what does that have to do with GTK?
- raingrove, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12@anicejew
Shut up, Kyle. Your K stands from Krap too. - msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9One of the best cross platform apps I've seen is Audacity, which uses wxWidgets. The program appears a little different on each platform, but feels "correct" wherever you install it and stays similar enough to itself that you can seamlessly move from windows to mac to linux and not have search for what you need. OpenOffice however, looks great on linux and windows, but when you run it under X11 on a mac, it feels really out of place. The colors are different, the apple menubar at the top isn't used, it has it own widget set, fonts can vary from your regular system font, etc. NeoOffice has been working to fix this, but the app still feels like a port, and not a native mac application.
- Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9A bit misleading, since it won't be included in Leopard. Apple has nothing to do with this, and if the posted had read the article, they'd have known that. While it is not new news (this has been in the works for a while), it is great news.
- raingrove, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16Qt already runs on quartz
- Lounger540, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9KDE4 for Aqua OS X is in Fink. Binaries available here also.
http://ranger.users.finkproject.org/kde/ - felderado, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Ethereal is dead.
It's now Wireshark. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Good God, man! GTK means "GIMP Toolkit.
- EatingPie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Sadly... Inaccurate!
The article is about a straight port of GTK+ by an independent company. It has nothing to do with Leopard per-se, nor with Apple. Apparently the project is at least 2 years old, and from the instructions, can be built in 10.4 right now.
It's still nice and all, but there's NOTHING about it being part of Leopard. NOTHING! :-(
-Pie - mailman-zero, on 10/12/2007, -12/+17very big nose for sure!
- kill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"For instance, menubars will still be attached to the top of each window rather than operating as a standard top-of-the-screen Mac menubar."
There is already a menu bar patch for Linux that does this. It can easily be adapted for OS X. - msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Exactly. As a Mac owner and a linux user, I enjoy being able to run linux apps on my Mac without needing additional software (cygwin). Native GTK apps would be great, because the X11 app from Apple leaves a lot to be desired.
- Gecki, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10If this is true, my one reason for using Linux is gone. I hope it is true, due to the amount of good GNOME apps that are out on the web.
- mentor972, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Sounds like good news for...
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! - adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4There is nothing wrong with CocoaSharp. Not that I know of. I haven't done anything with it... yet. ;-)
I just wanted to know if I could use the same Windows/Linux GTK apps on the Mac without having to port to CocoaSharp. Laziness is the mother of invention? - crazybrit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Hmm, except all of the Diggers who have already expressed their interest in this, right?
- Lazybones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Even windows user don't like non OS native widgets. However if they pull it off it does make Mac OS a more attractive nerd platform as it would open up a wider array of FREE software to the platform
- wardriver20, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5It's not a theme. Dumb***
http://www.gtk.org/ - wardriver20, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@webmathwiz1
Even if it's hard, there's still a lot of great apps based on it. - bieber, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yeah, it mildly irritates me having to remember to use Dvorak shortcut keys when I'm using a Java app on OSX. It's not that I don't know where they are, since my iBook is the only one of my keyboards that doesn't have the keycaps set to Dvorak, it's that I get used to using the labels on the keys in other apps, then switch to Netbeans, and oops, I just hit Ctrl+O instead of Ctrl+S...
- kingace, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Hey, leave Jewish people out of this.
Although, you're right, my Channukah gifts have been sucking. Last year I got a half-eaten bag of combos for one of the nights. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4One thing that developers consistently mess up on the Mac, even on apps that aren't multi-platform, is the Dvorak layout with Qwerty keyboard shortcuts. Some notable ones that somehow break things for us dvorak-qwerty fans are Textmate, Office:mac, the new Parallels build's modifier key mangling, and everything that only runs in X11.
The dvorak-qwerty layout is the best thing since sliced bread and I wish that Windows and X11 had a layout like that so badly. From what I know about X11 it wouldn't be trivial to implement there at all, and might include changing a ton of apps that don't use a toolkit for key handling. I'm not sure how difficult this would be to implement on Windows. - skymt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's not really zealotry. Cocoa applications are ideal for Mac OS X. Most other UI frameworks (SWT, WX, etc) just "feel wrong". Even Carbon has serious integration issues.
- ishmal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Probably because it is beginning to produce real results. Here is an example:
http://inkscape.org/ - vico, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Totally inaccurate
- tuffy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Even if GTK widgets looked exactly the same as Aqua ones, the way GTK handles them is always going to be more X11-centric than Aqua-centric. For instance, menubars will still be attached to the top of each window rather than operating as a standard top-of-the-screen Mac menubar. Little stuff like that will add up to a not-quite-native feel for Mac users.
- Diganta, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4This is potenitally good news if it works out. I've been asking for a native Ethereal for Mac OSX without using Fink or Darwinports. The developers of Ethereal sighted the need to package GLib and GTK+ and time and a test bed Mac to develop these. I would hope this reduces most of those barriers.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Finally! This'll make things easier, by jove.
- Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@wardriver20
Who said it was a theme? As i said ive used Gtk+ in several apps, and the C bindings are terrible, but the python binding is wonderful, and i've heard good things about the c++ binding gtkmm.
The only time i said theme was "default theme", which is a world apart from simply "theme". As a widget library(among other things) Gtk+ HAS THEMES, of which, the default is crap. - Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1That would be a feature of GNOME(and or OSX) i'm pretty sure, well, in tandem with GTK+ of course. And yes GIMP uses GTK+, GTK stands for "Gimp ToolKit" :-)
- regeya, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Finally I could use GIMP without X11. Wait, does GIMP even use GTK?"
Haha, priceless. :-)
Yes, The GIMP was the first program ever to use GTK+. The 'G' used to stand for GIMP. It was written to eliminate the Motif dependency in The GIMP. - Nuak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2You can read the article before you comment, the title and description are misleading. Buried for inaccurate.
- Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Come on... I knows you were thinking it too!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5krap? sort of like hanukkah gifts?
- adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5So... will my mono C# GTK apps run on Leopard? Can I ditch CocoaSharp?
- regeya, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Hopefully this will go better, and faster, than the native port to BeOS several years ago.
- Aleman360, on 10/12/2007, -7/+7Heck yea. I hate having to use X11 for Matlab.
- bpepple, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Agreed, this port has been going on for over a year. Why is it news now?
- theWrkncacnter, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Finally I could use GIMP without X11. Wait, does GIMP even use GTK?
They should figure out how to move the menus from the window to the top bar with GTK apps. That would be cool. - t3hX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I've got an aqua GTK theme installed - my X11 apps look like the normal Mac apps (but don't quite work like it though). At least they fit into OS X...
- arrayZero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I agree with Nuak. Buried due to inaccuracy.
- afzilla, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Actually ***** yourself u zionist *****
- script, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2A comment under TFA:
"We need more native Mac Applications written in Cocoa. No thanks to all the other junk."
- Robert
Haha that is priceless mac zealotry - redmonk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Dugg for the article content, but the title here is misleading, as others have pointed out. Glad to see more native environments for GUI apps on OS X though.
- Dwonis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0GTK+ apps behave differently from Aqua apps, and the fact that they look different is a significant visual cue to the user about how to interact with them. Take that away, and you have to figure out which are the GTK+ apps through trial and error, rather than obvious visual cues.
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