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80 Comments
- panique, on 10/12/2007, -5/+49@whamdanglers - Normally, I'd agree with you about the fanboy disconnect with reality, but not in this case.
If you actually viewed the MWSF Keynote, you saw Steve Jobs tell us there were some other amazing features in Leopard that they are playing very close to the vest. He said he didn't want to "give anyone a head start on copying them". Of course this is an implied reference that Microsoft wishes to copy these features.
All it takes to get a copy of the Leopard Developer release is $500 and a mailing address. Not to mention that we already know that Microsoft is an Apple Authorized Apple developer (Office Mac, etc.). Given that Apple has already stated that it does not want to give any advance opportunity for Microsoft to preview any "top secret" features, the idea that they have a secret internal-only build clearly is not a theory, it is an operational imperative. And I'd hazard a guess that a healthy portion of the bugs present in the latest preview have to do with the "top secret" features being ripped out of the build. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+55"Why is it that when Apple is developing something, and we see a ***** build, they already get the benefit of the doubt? Yet when we see a ***** build of a Microsoft product, we're given the same old "Microsoft's dropped the ball again" song and dance."
Maybe because Apple has a long standing history of putting out quality products on time, while Microsoft has just as long of a history of releasing absolute crap and releasing it several years late.
I'm not suggesting this is not a current build of Leopard like the other poster, but the answer to your question was self evident. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+46So they are releasing bugs, which have already been corrected internally, to developers just for fun? I fail to see your logic.
- whamdanglers, on 10/12/2007, -38/+65Ireland says "I'd bet this version is the build Apple had 6 months ago, and they are further along than we think."
Sweet Chocolate Christ... Fanboys piss me off.
Why is it that when Apple is developing something, and we see a ***** build, they already get the benefit of the doubt? Yet when we see a ***** build of a Microsoft product, we're given the same old "Microsoft's dropped the ball again" song and dance. Is it so unconscionable to think that Apple might actually be behind on something? Remember, kids... Apple is only human. - caliform, on 10/12/2007, -8/+34Actually, Apple -is- obviously holding out some features in the developer builds ...
Take for example the resolution-independent UI, ZFS, the Latent Semantic Mapping framework API - some things aren't functional, or simply excluded. There is much, much more to Leopard than these builds can make you believe. - Phatt138, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16Wham's right in a lot of ways, but I don't remember seeing so much dissapointment in the early days of the Longhorn builds either. Maybe I wasn't trolling Apple sites looking to start fights (I'm not suggesting that Wham was), and so didn't see any of it, but I was there on every Vista release since...God, the 3800's at least, and all I saw was excitement from almost every sector. Let's face it, the way that Longhorn was initially envisioned would actually have made it next-gen even in comparison to OS X Tiger. In the end, though, most would admit that Vista was a pretty big dissapointment. Microsoft's need to support the business standard that it created makes it tough for the company to make big advances in the first place, and the year or three lost to the original builds before the project was restarted put them temporally and financially behind.
While I have no doubt that people gave MS some unfair criticism, most of the brimstone that *I* was aware of came in response to the ever-retreating ambitions of the project - not because people were just 'being haters.' People were angry that they were promised something amazing and got something...ordinary.
What Ireland said is apt, though. Just as Microsoft had more advanced builds of Longhorn, so too are Leopard Dev builds an incomplete picture of the finished product. That's a just and logical statement. And whether you like it or not (or even if you point to it as a reason for the company's inferiority as a market), Apple has, under Jobs, been all about the 'wow' factor. I don't think that it's being 'fanboy' to expect to be pleasantly surprised at the release of Leopard. In many of the theaters that MS fails in, Apple succeeds (and vice-versa). It's okay to be excited about both companies, though it would arguably be for different reasons. - gsnedders, on 10/12/2007, -8/+21Every revision of Vista was posted, so why not OS X?
- chigaze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13NDA means you can't talk about the details, it doesn't mean you have deny having it.
- CarbonEclectic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12This "apple stuff" you refer to IS actually used by developers. Granted, core animation is probably one of the bigger items on the list of things that developers are integrating into their upcoming releases for Leopard, but things like bluetooth, time machine, iCal, etc. are also important to certain developers. How are you supposed to develop applications to work with Time Machine, if time machine isn't working? Not to mention that Powerbook G4's are getting system panics from the release.
But like what everybody is already saying on this article, Apple more than likely has already resolved a lot of these issues and simply hasn't prepared a new build to the developers be it for time reasons or the fact that Apple does not want to disclose that much more about Leopard prior to release. - shaake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Reality check everyone, Apple has only said they would release Leopard in "Spring of '07"... Lets see spring = March, April or May.
Basically there are rumors by over optimists that Apple will release soon. The sad thing is even if Apple releases it on the schedule they have stated the perception now will be that they are late... Apple has missed dates before, but lately they seem to be fairly good (not perfect) at hitting dates. Now they have "fans" out there that expect them to deliver the goods even faster. I'd expect they release a solid release in Mid to late May. But hey I my only connection is what Apple has told the public... - kronix2, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14If I have to choose between Mac fans and somebody who says "this is gay", I choose Mac fans. Buried.
And by the way, the people digging bgbs down obviously don't remember Vista's pre-RTM development cycle. Every new Vista build was savaged. He's pointing out that Apple have emulated Microsoft in putting out a buggy pre-release build, but they receive praise whereas Microsoft was slaughtered. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11116 people disagree. Unfortunately you are only one voice. Find a new hobby besides article bashing.
- chrisgeleven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Most of June is spring as well.
- zpok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Difference between build appreciation and perceived build stability:
if you like the features, like the way they are presented, that's appreciation.
if you mention stuff like bugs and kernel panics, you are talking about build stability.
The buzz around vista was that most people where underwhelmed (build appreciation) but predicted that nevertheless in time most people would upgrade. Since most super features were later on canceled, this is overall a very mild verdict.
A lot of people are still complaining about vista stability. Nothing new here. A couple of updates along this will change. Especially mac users sometimes don't realize that compatibility issues are a given with PCs that take more time to iron out. The downside of more hardware freedom and not something you can simply put at MS's doorstep alone.
What I don't *get* here is the frustration of PC users who feel this report from a mac site is too glossy *compared to Vista reports*. It is fairly critical and points out this build is far from complete. I have read loads of vista reports that were of the same vein. When people really got frustrated and downright cynical in their reporting on Vista, the authors were mostly disappointed about dropped features.
Whenever one of His Jobsness' keynotes doesn't live up to the wild predictions of fans the same happens with Apple. And we're not even talking about features that were presented years ago that don't make it in the final release, we're talking about unsubstantiated rumors. - hardcoreUFO, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12whamdanglers: Apple gets the benefit of the doubt because they have a reputation for generally (GENERALLY, not always) delivering high quality products on time -- ahead of time, in some cases. Redmond does not because, despite legions of developers, they deliver shoddy, derivative products late -- very late, in some cases. Its based on a track record.
- panique, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Why is he getting modded down? In order to have the seed you're under NDA, and we've seen many many times how Apple deals with people that violate their NDAs. So, the dude is most likely blowing smoke.
- bkakes, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Yes, because the original Mac OS, in the days of DOS, was a real piece of crap. Or back when PCs had Windows 3.x and Macs had 7.x. Give me a break...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12All these bugs look to be in apple stuff, the things actually useful to developers in these releases like core animation etc sound to be doing fine.
This sort of stuff could easily be swapped at the end with no impact on app devs.
They kept iphone/ipod designs and features secret from their internal teams
and osx intel 10.0-10.3 from the world - flipmeat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Check out the discussion forums at apple.com/support and see if you still think Apple customers are soft on Apple. Keep some water handy to put out the flames.
If anything, Apple customer's expectations are higher, given Apple's focus on an 'it just works' approach. - morcheeba, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Spring 2007 is Sep 23-Dec 21 ... in the southern hemisphere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(season) - mobilehavoc, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Don't you get it, it's all part of Steve Job's master plan...part of his reality distortion field.
Only problem is nobody seems to be paying attention except the Apple community on Digg... - mobilehavoc, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Apple stuff....wouldn't that encompass the entire ***** OS?
- flipmeat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Sol1, a project of the scope, team size, and development time of Vista will have _thousands_ of bugs in the final release. Mostly little ones, things that have workarounds, compatibility, and minor cosmetic things. I too am distributing butt-numbers, but I am speaking from the experience of many software projects.
- CarbonEclectic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5$260 still beats Vista Ultimate's $400 price tag at retail (I know OEMs are cheaper).
- CarbonEclectic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Spring is between March 20 to June 21. Just to clarify :)
- Trat, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Unless you think that Vista is on par with Tiger (or Leopard), your comment really misses the point.
- EricJD, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7OMG, bugs in Apple software? Impossible!
- panique, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Sorry. A Non-Disclosure Agreement means you cannot disclose anything pertaining to the item for which you are under NDA, which includes that it exists, is buggy or not, etc.
- nayr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6bgbs: have you eery used osx? you'll never see the word driver almost EVER.
- Quix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sure, I can't wait for Leopard either, but more importantly (to me), where are iLife and iWork 07???
- 21chrisp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It seems like many people just aren't getting the rather obvious point mentioned so many times above...
The seeds are known to have large pieces of the OS either missing or not operational. It's common sense that this would create bugs that would not otherwise exist. It's virtually impossible to gauge the current state of Leapord with these seeds! It's entirely possible that 99% of these bugs are a result of the missing code. It's also entirely possible that 1% of these bugs are a result of the missing code. It doesn't tell us ANYTHING!!! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+12every revision of vista was crapped on. It was posted with specific reason by fanboys. When they posted this one, they carefully wrote it, and put terms such as "fresh features" "ironed out" to make it sound so innocent and beautiful and under control..etc
If it was about M$ you know how this article would sound. - streak, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5My belief is Jobs didn't have much he /could/ show off at WWDC '06 that was special (of particular attraction to consumers, /not/ developers), because not much was ready. The stock options issue didn't help either. To help distract and appease the market, Jobs used the excuse of having to keep things secret. Now everyone is waiting for something special/revolutionary to appear beyond what they already know about. This puts a lot of pressure on Apple and IMHO it means we won't see anything new until it really is ready. I also believe many of the special features of Leopard will require new Apple hardware, which also isn't ready. Apple is juggling many balls right now. They could all come crashing down (highly unlikely) or we'll all just have to wait it out (duh!)
Some of the most important features of Leopard are going to be the kind of thing that consumers won't really think about, because the OS will simply work more smoothly and reliably than any previous generation of Mac OS X. Without something shiny and new in Leopard, though, most consumers will wonder why they need to pay for an upgrade. In other words, consumers will ask: why didn't Apple write the OS properly in the first place and why is it such a big deal to swap in a new version that works better, since it doesn't really do anything different(ly)? - mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Apple has a long history (That means longer than 10% of their lifetime), of screwing up projects, if you dont know what that means or dont know what im talking about, you dont understand apples history at all.
They are a bigger company, more professional now, but suggesting that when things go wrong it is by design, thats just stupid.
They arent superhuman, they've made huge mistakes before, but so has microsoft, both companies have spent years developing entire platforms only to completely drop them for another code base, again if you dont know what im talking about, history isnt your strong suit. - celotil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I know it's a while away but I presumed that Apple would release Leopard at around the same time as WWDC07, June 11-15 according to the Apple Developer email I received.
Hopefully there'll be new MacBook Pros too, with 17" WUXGA (1920x1200) screens and much upgraded video cards - one would be the first laptop I've ever owned in 27 years of working and playing with computers, so I'm patient enough to wait a few more months even though I'm tired of being chained to a desk with my desktops. - Rice, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Damnit. I was getting hopeful. I love a new OS, and I can't wait.
But if it's going to take some time, whatever. - mrchin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm sure iWork/Life will be right on the Paw Pads of Leopard. That's assuming that all is due to feature functionality with Leopard.
- Sol1, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6Over 30 bugs? Holy Hell, stop the presses! FYI - Microsoft KNOWINGLY shipped vista with 300+ bugs. 30 bugs, depending on the severity, is almost nothing for an OS.
- Trat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Thankfully I'm nor part of the Wintendo user group (anymore)... Why is it that people think Apple users actually care about them being in the minority? I really don't care, and as long as Apple makes me new Pro stuff every time I need them. I honestly have no single bad feeling about it.
Good luck with your crusade in jeans. *passes mine C2D MBP to his neighbour who wants to make a DVD movie of his wedding, but doesn't want to do it on his Vista PC and make it look like a transvestite* - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Why would we need damage control? You see something damaging about having bugs in new code?
- Me1000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The didnt ship it did they??
There isnt a double standard!
I get pissed off when i find a bug in apple software!
but the fact remains there are far less bugs in apple software then MS software. (in the final releases) - panique, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Seriously. I decided around August that I was going to wait "just a few months" before upgrading. I'm still on the original iWork. Though I think I want Time Machine more than updated iWork.
- noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ramble it just feels that way because Apple already put those 'Vista' features out years ago, it's easy to get confused though, we understand.
- crumpy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This should significantly disrupt the field in the Release Date Prediction Tracker at http://buzzdroid.com/apple/mac-os-x/os-x-leopard-release-date-prediction-tracker/
- bbardlbradd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1 I know what you're thinking. They are seeding because they need help debugging.... Well why should someone try to fix any of those problems, when the problem isn't actually a problem at all... it's just a puzzle with missing pieces...
How can developers create software that will take advantage of the OS if the OS isn't showing off what it's good for. Apple would be giving developers just enough room to say that the app they created is leopard compatible.
I've seen the WWD conference. It was really interesting, but didn't show off anything extraordinary, or didn't even point out there was a lot missing from the seeded OS's.
Kudos for "reality distortion field". iCon is an excellent read. - Trat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Also, one should not forget that Apple has products which it targets at Pro users. Anything in the Pro space, should be acclaimed as having to meet the high(er) demands of its users. Wheter one is (considering him-/ herself) a Pro user or a casual user, both segments run the same version of the OS (server or not). So yes, demands are higher by Apple users, in general.
- Trat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I bet you are still wet behind your ears...
- Quix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Sure. Right before I block you.
Trolls suck. - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Kronix your question was answered up above but to recap, Microsoft has a ***** record while Apple has a much better, though not spotless, track record.
Also, based on Apples track record, all of the critical bugs and most, if not all, of the minor bugs will be fixed in the public release, wheras a lot of MS bug stay through until the first service packs come out. - zioxide, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Well I like Apple and I'm looking forward to Leopard, but some people are just ***** impatient. It will be out sometime in the Spring, that means March-June. It's only a couple of months...
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