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- redwire, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25Your absolutely right, its less about who is first to market so much as who does it right.
Microsoft wasn't the first with a office suite but they did it right, so much so its used even on platforms that arn't their own.
Kazaa wasn't the first truely p2p application but they did it right (dispite the spyware that came later) so it took off.
Skype was far from being the first VOIP client, there was a ton but they made it very easy and accessible to the masses.
ICQ wasn't the first instant message client but they took control of it through simplicity, no cost and good UI in the first few incarnations.
the iPod wasn't the first mp3 player but the combo of that and iTunes and the iTunes music store has proved an accessible and enduring combo.
Point being its about making it good, simple and accessible even cost can come secondary though it certainly helps. - zigamorph, on 10/12/2007, -11/+33You know this is nothing new company after company has tried this some successful some not. I mean you already have Microsoft Windows Media Center. You have a whole host of other devices which act in simular manors from MythTV and others. Maybe Apple will succeed where everybody else has failed sort of like the iPod.
I just don't get why people automatically assume Apple is the first to do everything. Time has shows they are really the last to do most things, but they most often do it very well so it really doesn't matter. - brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -7/+25Before Apple thinks they can claim the living room, they have to add some serious functionality to Front Row. Aside from eye-candy, Media Center is just a superior product (and MC's look isn't bad). The apple remote may be smaller, but that's only because it doesn't do much.
- robb.monn, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21It may do less, but at least it works in a solid, simple manner that anyone can figure out. Have you seen the MC remotes? They have 50+ buttons!
While MC might seem like the obvious choice to you the reality is that most people either can't be bothered with it, can afford it or are intimidated by it. - CLIFFosakaJAPAN, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18@techlinks "All because there are people in this world who can't figure out a remote. Honestly"
I know how to use a 100 button remote as well as the next geek but I find that I only need to know how to use 6. Apple and Nintendo seem to be the only companies that get that 'Keeping it Simple' is Elegance in itself - Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -11/+26maybe, but there are 2 points here
1. microsoft has many many different products to promote whereas apple only has 1-3 at a time (new computer, new ipod, etc)
2. apple has the advantage of possessing the reality distortion field generator, it adds +5 to marketing - carguy84, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15Uhh, I tried to hook up my mini to my TV and after 3 hours of trying to figure out how to correctly set the resolution I gave up and installed media center on it. I was finally able to set the resolution to what I thought should work (1920x1080) only to find out that it overscanned almost 20%. Luckily I was able to finetune the resolution down a little bit, but even then part of the start menu was off-screen.
This situation ^^ is far far far too common in the HTPC world that it is no wonder the HTPC market has grown so little. I should be able to set my video card res to whatever my TV res is and not have to fool around with anything else.
Why is it made so hard?
Chip- - moisie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9It's not so much about not being able to figure out a remote, most people just don't want to. When they watch TV they want to surf between channels and have stuff shown to them. They want to sit back and watch, not lean forward and interact all the time. Media Center probably tries to do to much, more than people are ready for or prepared to commit to across the board. Front Row may be a bit too simplistic but in terms of just serving up raw content it does a job.
- moisie, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17I'm pretty certain that you'd find Microsoft spend far more on advertising than Apple do and that hasn't helped media center has it?
- goat77, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14Linux and Windows based solutions are far more expandable and customizable.
- kalisphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Why would I want to customize something that I already love?
Don't get me wrong -- Front Row isn't perfect... but it works just fine for me. - PradaPete, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7the top reason why I don't believe in a TV tuner product from Apple is the simple fact that it wouldn't be much use. Nobody would be really happy with just an analogue tuner...there are so many tuners needed for reception today (I have 4 at home: Digital Terrestial, Digital Satellite, Digital Cable, and Analogue Cable), and no manufacturer has the logic board to include it all in one.
Now, a product that would let you connect to just analogue cable would be very lame because that way the reception would be limited to only free-to-air TV.
I reckon we'll see the next video iPod tomorrow. Why? It's a safe bet that we'll see an iTunes Movie Store tomorrow, and Apple definitely needs a hardware product to go with it. - Raydr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6drdaz:
As great as MythTV is, no it can't.
It can handle the video input from a digital cable box and dbs system, but MythTV itself does not decode these signals itself. And it's actually not MythTV handling the signals, it's the decoder card. MythTV is just an interface in front of it all. - Cingular8125, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Flat out, XP Media Center is Fantastic! I am a bit offended that people give it such a cold shoulder. I have a system that includes a MCE PC running a dual tuner playing through surround sound and a TV and Projector. My 5 year old can navigate to anything she wants on it... TV (record two shows while watching a third), DVDs, video clips, home movies, MP3s, digital photos, online streaming content (including YouTube and Google video), FM radio, and all of this can be watched in other rooms with under a $100 investment to buy a used XBox and Extender kit.
M$ is not great at all things but my TV/Media world is one million times better since I got this thing 2 years ago. I don't and can't believe that anything announced tomorrow will blow away MCE and if you have not used it, you should try it before you bitch about it. - readme, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I predict Airport Express 2.0 ships tomorrow with video streaming. Windows XP Media Center Edition is a nightmare for the average Joe. AE makes it dead simple.
- brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8'I haven't tried either Microsoft's Media Center (Still too complicated for the average consumer IMO) or Apple's Front Row (Not nearly enough options and the hardware is too expensive)."
What I find hillarious is that even though you admit having no experience with either piece of software, you still seem to think that you have an informed opinion.
I've used both, and Media Center is a superior product. It's not complicated at all. The number-of-buttons argument is null, just look at how many buttons are on standard remotes people have used for years. The too-many-buttons argument is just Apple creating an issue where none exists.
Media Center has more features than Front Row and is just as easy to use. If Apple added TV/Radio tuning and PVR to Front Row, then the Apple remote would have a lot more buttons than it has now. - mxcl, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6All I do with all my remotes is change the channel, skip chapters or alter the volume. Yet these stupid things have 60 buttons and often don't put the buttons I use in prominent places.
This is, frankly and simply, ***** design. Apple have the right idea. Sure there might be features missing from front row currently (having not used it much I don't know), but it does what is important to 80% of people and it does it without being difficult to learn. And please remember that a lot of people forget how to use interfaces straight after they learn them, so every time is a learning experience.
I agree that Apple often go the other side of the "enough features" marker to Microsoft, but I admire the fact that they are more interested in getting it right than marketing based on feature count. Not that Apple always get it right, but they try.
The exception here will be MS Office 2007 which is very well designed and implemented throughout. - Odiwan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Your comment was very insightful, other than the 3rd paragraph which probably was the reason you got buried. Thanks for the first two - I liked the idea.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11sadly most people today are too stupid to be able handle expanding or customizing anything. do you know how many people today can't even hook their tv up to their vcr? you would be frightened by the answer. that's why mac does so well, they don't confuse people with choices.
- IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The same group of people who bash Microsoft on including DRM in Vista want Apple to bring about a revolution in movie playback on their Macs which can only happen if the movie studio moguls are satisfied with the anti-piracy DRM embedded into the OS.
And for the records, XP Media Center Edition sold more copies than OSX in the past one year. There are also many 3rd party products that offer the same functionality on vanilla XP (Nero, Yahoo, WinTV). Yet this article will be seen as a rational discourse here. - inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4> 1. microsoft has many many different products to promote
> whereas apple only has 1-3 at a time (new computer, new
> ipod, etc)
And Microsoft has probably 100x the money, resources and power in the computer market that Apple does. That's no excuse. And besides, nobody is forcing them to pursue an insane number of markets simultaneously. That's their own dumb decision.
> 2. apple has the advantage of possessing the reality distortion
> field generator, it adds +5 to marketing
Heh... what many geeks see as a reality distortion field is really just Apple's uncanny ability to think like normal, non-geek people in conceiving their products and fixing the one or two things that people don't like about a given product. I'm no Apple fanboy, but personally, I can't wait to see what Apple does with both the media center and the cell phone. I hate the way cell phones work, and I've never once seen a phone UI that doesn't drive me crazy with the counter-intuitive menus and inconsistent use of buttons. And, if Apple ever dives headlong into the home entertainment world, maybe they can conceive a future where half-a-dozen barely compatible video and audio components don't have to be bizarrely wired together like some kind of BDSM fantasy gone awry. - EngelDesTodes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I own an HP Media Center Edition PC and I must say it is pretty good. It's not without flaws though... Importing music can be a nightmare if all of your ID3 tags are not in order. Other than that... DVR quality is great... Interface is simple... Given a few tweaks I think MCE PC's could be a fantastic edition to anyone's home theatre setup. JM2C
- kalisphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4And Macs have had TV tuners too... I seem to recall my school having a Mac with a TV tuner in the early, early 1990's. They're nothing new.
That's not the point :) - moisie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Why do they need to compete with Media Center? It's hardly widely adopted.
Why do they need TV reception straight off? Surely TV's can already receive TV signals? They only need reception if they're planning on letting you record TV. At first they could be looking for a use friendly way to access existing computer based content on a TV. Rather than burning picture slideshows to dvd, you can just watch them via front row (or whatever) Watch your own video content etc. I think a great step would be to make the system upgradeable. Allow third parties to plug-in devices to add functions. Apple can also make their own but if they get a big third party market then they're home and dry. Imagine all cable boxes coming with an Apple Front Row output, just plug it into your airport video express and it can distribute any content over your network to other devices that may be connected. - h3r2on, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I have to agree with you MCE is a stellar product it's easy to use, the guide is great and faster than any cable box/dvr/pvr I've ever used. And honestly as much as I'd love to put a cute little apple appliance in my HT setup it's not going to happen and here's why. Apple is in the market of SELLING TV shows/(movies tomorrow?) through itunes why would they allow you download them for free? It doesn't make marketing or fiscal sense, and the bottom line is they are in the business of making money. 1.whatever it is songs sold and a zillion iPods sold should make that very clear.
- kernelhappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The problem is that it's taken too long to get advanced media boxes into the living rooms and the services have already begun to converge in the provider sanctioned devices. There is no incentive for cable service providers to capitulate because they've held off the computer industry long enough that their own offerings are satisfying the desires of a significant portion of users thus diminishing the motivation of device manufacturers to fight there way in. Cable company supplied DVRs were a great move by the cable companies to stave off the computer industry.
There simply has not been a device compelling enough to drive Joe Average User to stray from what the providers sanction. As service providers add more and more features they make it less attractive for a user to go with an alternative.
We've already seen that the provider industry has treated CableCard as a step child so any hope of having a Cable/Satelite standard is at best a extreme long shot. Because the cable/satelite industries have done such a good job the only avenue to integrate multiple sources will be HDCP compliant devices that can take HDMI input and switch it and imo for a better user experience, overlay it. Additionally a device control protocol would be necessary in order for true integration, which has proven elusive (several years ago there was a drive to create one by I believe toshiba and some other companies but it has since failed to gain traction). Even if this was feasible given current standards, the the hardware required to do such things would be relatively expensive thus limiting it's market to people who are willing to spend a considerable amount of money for maybe 10-20% more features.
Before anyone here labels me a luddite, I have a HTPC that I use for browsing, games, movies and music. What I don't use it for is time shifting, I leave that to my cablebox DVR. When I built my HTPC I did so mostly for games and music, the ability to open a browser in a pinch to look something up (not as a primary PC) and to create a DVD jukebox that I could access from multiple rooms. - juice09, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Look at Elgato systems. They produce hardware and software dvr components for the Mac platform.
- mikeazorin, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7I'm sorry, but not everybody has an XBox lying around, and I'm sure there are many people who bought an XBox because they like to play games, and aren't willing to lose that.
- brettshow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think we will see the next gen displays tomorrow, because it all relates to movies, and apple earlier cut their prices of their old displays. Not just video ipod, its going to be a hard selling point for people to watch full length movies, sometimes 3 hours on an ipod, it's great for trips, but that is it. They need to develop a Netflix killer, that will just download the stuff and they can keep it. Im not sure if Streaming is going to look great on a TV, what if it keeps having to buffer, then your watching a movie and it just pauses, that will become really frustrating, really fast. I think there has to be a solution, and not too sure if that will be revealed tomorrow, but if they want to sell movies, that is what they will have to do. Also X-Treme battery life on new iPods.
- bigd063, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Torrents have already cracked the PC-TV barrier.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hey Jobs...Iv`e been watching over the air free HDTV on my PC for TWO YEARS now.
ATI is way ahead of the Mac. It also lets me watch my satellite TV on my PC and I can record either one in many different formats AND burn to DVD. Nobody needs your "new" idea. It`s already been done. BTW....don`t need a Media Center PC either ! Don`t need any "movie store" download services either. Any movies I dont get on Starz , HBO , or , Showtime(which I record for free) , there is always DVD X-COPY. People need to wake up and realize they don`t need those overpriced , DRM infested , low-quality download services. - cbiz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"burn to DVD that I can take to my existing media center" - Why? Other than taking it to a friends house who want's to go through the trouble of burning it. I don't have a TV anymore but noticed ABC is streaming this "Road to 9/11" on the ABC website. They claim it is a hight quality picture and I think it's free. That is the future, not burning DVD's.
- VinceNoir, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@DocNo
Yeah. CableCard. And we all know how well THAT'S working out. No thanks. - dan90251, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm expecting Apple to convert one of the Cinema displays (30" and above I'm hoping) into a full blown Mac (ala iMac) but tweaked to run FrontRow by default and hang on my wall. I expect to slip my DVDs in the side and it to have a built in tuner. iTunes Movie store I would also expect to be seemlessly integrated into FrontRow.... oh and syncing my Ipod should be easy..
The MiniMac will be the budget version.
Ofcourse I'm dreaming here - ForbesBingley, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Agreed.
I'm a Mac user of old, and I winced when Jobs made the skitty comparision between the the two flickerydicks (that what one of my sisters calls a remote control, by the way!)
I'd say that there's much more to come from Apple... - pyrolyte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i have no tv. only 20" imac and netflix. it is far superior to tv with ads.
- FzArEkTaH, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1XBMC is SO great - for some people it may be a little hard to set up - but believe me its worth the effort! only real draw back is the lack of being able to stream high def content, but wait for the 360 to get cracked (yes i know about firmware, but that does not allow for home brew apps) and it will be the mecca of home entertainment ;) - anyway - take the time to read up about it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBMC
- Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Most of you are missing one big point.
ALL PC-TV solutions do not take into consideration digital cable and HD content.
So you buy this fancy Media Center PC or even some new Apple HTPC, and then what.
For myself, I generally watch about 80% of of my conntent from digital channels these days. In fact, except for local channels and the major networks, most channels are broadcast digital only in many markets.
This means that an analog cable tuner is useless in these markets. If I want to record TV, I have to connect the video out of my PROPRIETARY cable box into the video in of my TV/Video capture card, and coordinate playback and recording on two devices (ala recording to VCR's back in the day).
This, for me, is a big deterant from investing too much money into an HTPC solutions.
Unelss Apple has openned up Digital cable television and can natively navigate, decode, and record digital cable content, like a proprietary PVR solution from your cable company, then Apple can no more get a leg up on HTPC then Microsoft or any other company.
All that is being argued here is whether Apple can make a better media navigation software over Microsoft. Can Apple's FrontRow 2.0 or whatever be a better navigation system then Microsof'ts media center. In reality, this point is moot because navigating pre-recorded content, or even accessing analog cable is all these boxes can do.
I am waiting for one of two things to happen. Either digital cable opens up and allows 3rd party devices to access digital cable content, or that IPTV takes off allowing me to watch the same content online as I am getting from cable.
Until that happens, it is laughable to assume that Apple can take over this market because they will offer the same handicapped device that has prevented Microsoft from making Media Center a success, that is the simple fact that as a TRUE entertainment hub, lack of native support for digital cable is a big reason why nobody wants to buy these HTPC devices.
The ONLY leg up Apple will have is the ability to stream TV or Movies from iTunes through a set-top device. However, I do not want to pay-per-use to watch episodes of Lost. I already pay a cable subscription, and I want the ability to integrate digital cable into my multimedia hub. - DocNo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Uh, it's called Cable-Card.
Microsoft already has Vista Media Center cable labs approved.
Google is your friend... - adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Great! Does this mean that FrontRow finally has some Tivo like features?
If not, I'll stick with Windows Media Center edition. - cbiz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm with you.
- deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here's what I think Apple should do for an AirPort Express 2.0 model:
1) Include video inputs for users to hookup their own DVR device. The AirPort would basically just be a video switch at this point. Let the user supply their own DVR or DVD player.
2) Include a high quality learning remote that can replace the users cable box/DVD player remote.
3) Allow users to play Flash videos from a Safari plugin.
4) Playback standard xvid/h264/divix/etc
5) Do it all for $200. - DocNo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Are you implying computers are capable of less interactive content than a DVD player, or just that they will be too lazy to including?
The former is laughable and latter is highly probable :/ - DaMav, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I watch all my movies via my computer monitor, a Samsung flatscreen. Next box will be hooked up to the TV cable and I'll dump my Televisions that I watch about once a month now. I guess I don't see what the big deal is. I still 'digged' the story though :-)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Also forgot to mention that my card was made BEFORE the "broadcast flag" requirement so it is immune to the whole broadcast flag spec.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Very well said.
- sweetnjguy29, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If Apple can fine tune an easy to use, one click interface for a computer DVR/entertainment center, they will have something to brag about. Click here, get content. Anything more than that is going to be too complicated for wide spread acceptance. My friends can barely maintain a normal computer, forget throwing in a plug in card and recording movies to the hard drive and setting record times...
- Dalhectar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The problem with CableCards is
A) Cable Companies are trying to stifle their development. They'd rather rent you a box which they can control more tightly.
B) CableLabs (the industry group of the Cable COmpanies) will only allow MS to utilize CableCards on pre-built certified systems. THe Cable COmpanies will also try to stop customers from adding CableCards to existing solutions. Systems with CableCard support will have to be from OEMs, and are bound to have extensive DRM support... again control.
What's probably going to happen, is the same thing that happens to music. MS will be hampered by the contnet compaies so they will use some restrive DRM that scares away customers and makes the systtem too hard to use. In the meantime Apple will build a product that makes people money, and eventually content providers will fall in line, to collect a check. But the average person, will say screw both and pirate the content. Do you think more people buy songs from Apple or just download them from a P2P service? Movies will be the same, especially at near DVD prices for half DVD quality. - sdbryan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Two issues with that claim. I view YouTube on my monitor, not a TV. It is a computer/web product, not really any synergy with the TV. Second, even if it were considered to be in the same market (of course, we don't know exactly what that is until tomorrow) there is still the Napster factor. It appeared that Napster had precluded what would be later owned by iTMS after the RIAA littigated Napster into oblivion. I wouldn't count on the MPAA to be favorably disposed to YouTube as more copyrighted content finds its way onto YouTube's site. This should not be considered an endorsement of any sort for anything the RIAA or MPAA has ever done but it would be foolish to ignore their possible reactions to otherwise successful ventures.
- sdbryan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1People have been getting free over the air HDTV using Elgato's EyeTV 500 on the Mac for about as long and have had the luxury of not dealing with WinXP's dicey handling of video overlays and concomittent crashes (don't try to blow smoke you know where, I've been running FusionHDTV on WinXP for more years than you have),
I don't imagine I'll buy into whatever is announced tomorrow but anything that lessens the grip of current cable monopolies will be a good thing, -
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