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- Ireland, on 11/20/2007, -1/+27If you like the iPhone this is great news. If you don't like the iPhone this is great news.
- kuhdorf, on 11/20/2007, -0/+13Dear scooter72: NO phone in Germany is sold with a "required" contract. It is a matter of price: you get a subsidized price (for the phone) if you commit to a contract. However, you can buy any phone WITHOUT a contract, albeit at a much higher price. A phone purchased without a contract may be used on any GSM network -- just put in your SIM card and you're in business. For consumers, the German model is better than the US model.
- scooter72, on 11/20/2007, -1/+9Ahhhh... Doesn't this apply to any phone? I'm not familiar with cell phone contract practices in Germany but, I wouldn't believe the iPhone is the only cell phone that requires a contract?...
- scooter72, on 11/20/2007, -1/+8Thanks for the update. I hope the US goes this way. What a better world it would be...
- kuhdorf, on 11/20/2007, -0/+6Dear seenxu: the key word in your post is "normally". It is correct that most mobiles in Germany are sold with a contract because the phone price is heavily subsidized (as in the USA). However it is possible to buy EVERY model of mobile phone without a contract, often even from the phone companies, themselves, albeit at a much higher price. These no-contract phones can be used on ANY network -- just insert the proper SIM. So what Vodaphone is asking is simply that current German practice be observed for the iPhone, too -- one price with a contract; another (higher) price without a contract; YOU choose your network.
- rmwimpee, on 11/20/2007, -0/+6not sure if that is actually the case. AP is saying
"Vodafone isn't generally opposed to T-Mobile's exclusivity contract with Apple, but wants to have these new sales practices examined, the spokesman said. The restraining order doesn't aim at a total sales stop, he added."
everyone might be jumping the gun a bit - eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -2/+7Never going to happen. I've worked in the telecom industry, and these guys are corrupt beyond belief.
- SignorDildo, on 11/20/2007, -0/+4...But it's okay for Vodafone (and every OTHER service provider) to acquire exclusive rights to particular vendors' handsets...
Me smells *****. - RyanBlueThunder, on 11/20/2007, -0/+4So much for the freedom to contract.
- eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -0/+4Say what? In Germany you are required to sign contracts to buy Coke, Pepsi, cars, and electronics?
Methinks not. Methinks German laws are actually right in saying that tying products to services is not in the best interest of the consumer (ie "the people").
If I want to buy an iPhone then take it out back and beat it with a hammer, I shouldn't owe anybody anything. - slimnickyy, on 11/20/2007, -1/+4You don't need a contract to buy a coke or pepsi, etc. What is your point?
- inactive, on 11/20/2007, -0/+3It's the same in the UK usually.
Isn't there some sort of EU law which prevents the inability to unlock a phone? - seenxu, on 11/20/2007, -1/+4in germany, normally the mobile phones are sold with some sort of contract, with 2 year contract or loop without contract time limitation, which had normally been locked to specific carrier, if you want to use these locked phones with other carriers, you have to crack it.
- eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -0/+3You innovate to make money, same reason everyone innovates. How your product is sold shouldn't really matter in an open market. In a way this is a form of collusion.
The only people helped by this are the companies pushing it. It allows each company to prop up prices artificially higher than the market would bear. This helps you and me by ensuring they can maintain artificially high prices and ensuring a fractured market? Is that an argument?
If VW released this great car, but required you sign a contract to buy only the most expensive VW gas, employ only the most expensive VW service and oil changes, for the first 2 years of owning it, you think that's a good idea? You think that benefits you and me at all? If they got away with it, how long until everybody would do it? Then you get proprietary gas pumps to ensure you always have to buy their gas, etc, etc...
I've worked for telecom's and I'm telling you this is how they think. They're making money, that's not the problem. They just like leveraging anything they can to prop up prices. - mstoneburner, on 11/20/2007, -0/+3Well, so much for free markets I guess...
- smek2, on 11/20/2007, -0/+3Yeah right, next thing the US adopt the superior A4 paper size, instead of stubbornly keeping the arbitrary Letter format. And hey, why not switching to tge metric system why we're at it. After all, currently only Liberia, Myanmar and the United States not using it.
- JJ2K1, on 11/20/2007, -1/+3Its because Germany has a very advanced user-friendly Pre-Paid or Pay as you Go plan that is very well integrated into their society. I think there were more people that used pre-paid plans rather than contracts. I think there are many people that would love to get an iPhone and use it on their pre-paid SIM, however i'm sure they're paying somewhere around 500-600 Euros for it.
- vvaduva, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2Nothing like a government telling a private company what to sell, how and when. Wohoo!!!
- compgeek, on 11/20/2007, -1/+3buried as inaccurate
- fani, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2America, there I send him...
- haentz, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2Vodafone not enforcing this court order at the moment. T-Mobile still sells iPhones. Exclusively.
- ratzfatz, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2Sorry , I have to correct my posting, because of news in Germany. T-Mobile is voluntary following Vodafones terms until court decision in about two weeks. T-Mobile will show up with a new service plan for the iPhone by tomorrow.
- Trax91, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2My country too, every phone is obtainable without hooks around it. You pay for it, you get nothing but the phone.
- lnfiniteLoop, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2More details:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/20/t_mo ... - Supernova36, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1Doesn't really matter, they can charge whatever they want for it without contract. Sell it as handset only for €1000..
- eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1Yeah, I find myself torn on this.
On one hand I think it should be their right. Nobody has to have an iPhone, and if this tying kills it, then that would be it's just reward (and a warning against others following). If you simply have to have an iPhone then you have to sign the contract, and that's the point (I guess). Either way the free market should work it out (although technically this isn't a free market, it's 2 companies exclusively blocking out others, against the consumers best interest).
On the other hand the best interest of consumers isn't necessarily best served by this. I'm also not sure I like the precedent. What's next? Cars that only drive on GE/BMW/TOYOTA roads? That seems silly now, but that's only because the car and road system were designed before we had large corporations trying to tie things together like this (it just wasn't financially or technologically feasible at the time). Such inner licensing could have made cars, internet, electricity, sidewalks, etc a nearly unbearable or impossible market today.
Either way the system is designed to protect the majority against the well funded minority. I read this more as enforced open markets than interfering with open markets. - l0tharnt, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1The iPhone only makes emergancy calls prior to being activated...activation requires setting up a contract. Buying an iPhone without a contract (IE no activation) is litteraly buying a really nice looking emergency red phone that only calls the hospital.
- eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -1/+2Wouldn't that defeat the entire point of the enterprise?
Put in another way. Say I have a cafe and I sell coke. Now to drink coke (exclusively available through me) you have to sign a contract promising not to drink your coke anywhere else. So now you think the law should read this is illegal, but changing the cans of coke so that they can only be opened in my cafe is ok?
Isn't that the exact same thing? You just switched words around. - inactive, on 11/20/2007, -1/+2Good!
- CLShortFuse, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1I don't this this'll open up the phone to be unlocked. It'll probably still be carrier-specific but you won't have to get a plan to BUY it. Of course, it'll be as functional as an iPod Touch but the phone capability is there (while being prone to hacks to unlock it as well).
- mpancha, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1too bad the other carriers aren't ready to do the same in the US and Canada. I hate the wireless market in N. America, what a joke.
- CLShortFuse, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1No, you're missing the point. They're just not forcing you to get a calling plan. They're not selling the phone unlocked to any subscriber.
You can't use a can of coke as an example because it's not a multipurposed device. It has only one use, to drink it.
Here are some examples:
1)I bought an MP3/CD Player for my car. It has AUX Input, plays CDA, plays MP3s on CDs, plays audio over bluetooth and XM radio support.
But I don't want the XM. I still bought the CD Player without having to sign up for XM.
2) Suppose you buy a new Verizon Windows Mobile PDA phone that comes with GPS. Yes the phone makes calls, can get emails, listen to music. Verizon put a lock on the GPS that it can only be used with Verizon's GPS Software. Though you bought the phone, if you want to use the GPS functions you have to subscribe to Verizon's GPS package. Verizon will still sell you the phone.
3) You buy an Xbox360 and like the games but have no interest in the online aspect. Microsoft does not force you to pay for the Xbox Live subscription.
Get it yet? It doesn't mean the phone will be unlocked to any subscriber but rather using that said feature (phone calls in this case) will not be mandatory if you want to purchase the device. - charlie55, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1well said.
who knows, if there wasnt massive profit in it, maybe apple would not have even bothered to make the phone at all. then what have you got?
let people sell things the way they choose. if you dont want to sign a contract, dont sign it. nobody owes you a contract-free phone. - eviltandem, on 11/21/2007, -0/+1I'm using the government to not force their will on me, not the other way around.
Your analogy is a poor one. McDonald's is not the only place I can buy Coke. I can buy it anywhere. I could go to 4 different places and pay 4 different prices for the product. With McDonald's I can go to 4 different restaurants, get 4 different prices for similar things, and get Coke from them all, or none of them, because service is not tied to product.
Everyone thought it was wrong with the Microsoft tax on new computers. You had to buy windows when you bought a computer, and this is EXACTLY the same thing in a different market. We all thought it was wrong when they forced you to have IE when you had windows. This is the same thing. If they were in the same market what they are doing would be called collusion and is illegal.
I just say the law hasn't caught up with the reality of the 21st century. So now it's not collusion as long as I make sure all my companies in my nice little circle don't actually compete with each other directly. This is not open, this is companies using contracts to keep away competition. - charlie55, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1like mcdonalds sells coke to the exclusion of pepsi. you do not have the contract, mcdonalds does.
just like apple has the a contract with cell provider. apple can dictate the terms or refuse to deal with the company. this is perfectly fair and should not be illegal. the guy above is right.
evil tandem, if you want to hammer your phone, you will want to buy one without a contract. and you shouldnt be able to force anyone to sell you one that way if they do not want to. - ratzfatz, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1@ AppleInsider: this is BS. What happened here in Germany was that Vodafone went to court to apply for an restraining order, which in turn forced T-Mobile to enter an objection. Now both parties (Vodafone and T-Mobile) are waiting for a final court decision. In the meantime T-Mobile can go on and sell as many iPhones as it wants - without any restriction. Due to the fact that German courts are completely overstrained it might take weeks if not months until a final decision.
- charlie55, on 11/21/2007, -0/+1keeping the market "open" means not using the government to force your will on people. that means you cannot force anyone to sell you something on your terms. if nobody wants to sell you a phone without a contract, too bad. that is their decision, not yours.
if apple were forced to sell to you on your terms, perhaps they would not have even bothered to make a phone. they are in it for profit, not to please you. - eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1I'm saying that this is actually anti-consumer. This doesn't help you and me at all. So many things that have made our lives great work because the market is open. Can you imagine the internet if any 1 company had exclusive control over it? AOL tried it (luckily it failed). You can use a car anywhere because road builders and car manufacturers were not in collusion. Imagine having to decide based on where you wanted to drive, which car you could buy. It would be lunacy. Imagine having to decide based on your internet provider whether you could buy a xbox360, wii, or ps3. Because each was supported only by a certain carrier.
Separating products from services is in societies best interest. Let each compete alone in it's own field, and the cream will rise to the top providing everyone with the best products and the best services at the cheapest possible price.
This is the exact opposite. Two companies leveraging their products against each other to ensure open competition never occurs, allowing each to maintain higher prices for potentially inferior products, and forcing you to decide which phone you can buy based on where, how and with whom you want to use it. - davman99, on 11/21/2007, -0/+1"without binding themselves to long-term agreements with any one carrier."
You mean like the long term contract that I'm stuck in with Vodafone and cannot cancel for love nor... well you're already getting my money :( - risotto, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1Buried for being inaccurate.
- hfactor, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1At the moment, it costs 399 Euros with a two-year contract of minimum 49 Euros per month. Without a contract, I´m sure the price will be 800+ Euros.
- eviltandem, on 11/20/2007, -1/+1No. To me wanting to buy a phone, not unlocked, is like trying to buy coke to take baths in. Technically possible, but a waste of time. If you take away the phone part, it's just an extremely broken, drm laden, very few apps providing, pda. There are literally dozens of products on the market that do the other parts better.
This is more akin to buying an xbox360 then complaining that it only plays xbox 360 games. It is a gaming console, that's what it does. Not connect to the internet, that's extra. - jizzlies, on 11/20/2007, -2/+2Germany here I come...
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mailto:lesleey1@yahoo.com - skyone10, on 11/20/2007, -0/+0The latest... T-Mobile Germany announced today, that they intent to comply to the court order and that they want to "change" the current distribution rules of the IPhone. How this is going to look like they have left open for now. They want to make the final announcement in the morning of Nov. 21st. (Remember Timezone CET). Something is going to happen however, lasting at least until the final ruling of the court - which can take 2 weeks plus... Rather interesting indeed...
- kuhdorf, on 11/21/2007, -0/+0Windadct:
Having lived in Germany for the past 8 years, it isn't clear to me that there is any lack of innovation in the German cell phone market. In fact, the range of cell phone choices available to German consumers is MUCH broader than here in the States AND a consumer can purchase ANY phone and use it on ANY network. As well (as another writer posted) one can truly "pay as you go" -- just pay for the actual calls you make, rather than pay a fixed monthly fee for minutes you may not use. The FACT that all of the major phone manufacturers supply the German market suggests that they aren't feeling stifled or suppressed. Indeed, because they deal direct (and aren't "forced" to distribute through one network or another) they actually churn out new models MUCH faster for Germany than for America. Anyone who has used e.g. a German spec Motorola Razor compared to Verizon's dumbed down version knows exactly what I mean. The American network providers are the ones who stifle and suppress features and innovative phones! - ScaredOfTheMan, on 11/20/2007, -3/+3Woo hooo!! Its like when Luke puts 2 in the Deathstar vent.... something tells me we may have a whole bunch of legally unlocked iPhones heading to the US (I can hope can't i)!
- inactive, on 11/20/2007, -1/+1This is just a case of sour grapes because Vodafone wasn't picked by T-Mobile to be the exclusive carrier in Germany.
- Windadct, on 11/20/2007, -3/+3I’m a pretty liberal person, but this is the perfect example of how a socialist mindset (and government) stifles and suppresses innovation.
While I do not LIKE that I can not buy an iPhone without a calling plan, and the many people that may hack and do other things to get around this prove I am not alone, this is NOT a rights issue for anyone other than the developer of the product. One has to accept that Apple developed the product and should be allowed do what they want with it, including selling as they see best suits their business.
If their entire business and product launch plan involves maintaining a market price, and the justification for developing this product (Cost to develop + Risk vs Profit) is based on the subsidy (kick back) from the Partner mobile carriers, then they have a right to sell it as they see fit.
Having the courts (& competitors) dictate how they MUST sell their product – then why develop products at all? Why innovate – if some competitor that does not take any risk to develop their own unique branding and creative product – come in and CRY – unfair advantage to the courts….well… tough children. Grow up and make your own phone! - ingomaro, on 11/20/2007, -0/+0>[..[ but this is the perfect example of how a socialist mindset (and government) stifles[...] innovation.
Check your fact. What mindset? What government?
VF complained to a court (and Apple Insider or the press have no details about the legal background of the claim). The court issued a preliminary injunction (which is usually issued after a very brief fact finding, ie within hours). T-Mobile objected and is continuiong to sell the iPhone (and issued a press-release that they will update their conditions to the court ruling). There is not yet any real ruling that T-Mobile may no sell only locked iPhones. (This is not about the "exclusive" bit)
Again, it's just _preliminary_ which is a regular legal process. -
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