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debbiemae- 4945 diggs
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- cashman57, on 01/27/2008, -17/+470REAL ID reminds me of those old movies about what it was like in nazi Germany where you had to have your papers with you or you were tossed into the dungeon.
- Ragecloak, on 01/27/2008, -4/+150yea except nazis didnt have biometric technology like we do
between the patriot act and the real id, this country has had the foundations laid for a police state/dictatorship.- stlWill, on 01/27/2008, -3/+12At the mention of "Nazis" and "Papers" did anyone else thing of the Indiana Jones zeppelin scene?
- timbofirstblood, on 01/27/2008, -2/+4I thought of a scene in the Great Escape.
- Gonz037, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1I thought of Jimmy Patterson, American spy
- DogBotherer, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6And the UK is the pilot project...
- cmackattack, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2Actually North Carolina....
http://www.ncsl.org/standcomm/sctran/NC_DMV_Testim ...
- cmackattack, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2Actually North Carolina....
- lust, on 01/28/2008, -1/+7I'd say we do that the UK does. We let the government issue Real ID, put digital cameras on all street corners, and let them patent our nut sack and balls. Then we can go a step further towards Communist China's form of government, and basically we let the government take control of our civil and human rights. Might as well suppress free speech, free market enterprise, and eliminate independent government watchdog. Hell yeah this will be really good for the future of the fascist
- scottelloco, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2And once the Democrats get into office the plan will be complete. The Democrats will escalate the abuse of Republican implemented powers with the blessing of both the Democrats and Republicans in Congress. Then in for the 2010 mid-term elections the Republicans will cry about how the Democrats abused the powers that the Republicans implemented with "good intentions" in order to try and win the Congress back. When the Republicans are called to task by the media (if they are) then they explain away their support for the abuses as being caused by "Democratic stonewalling."
Political strategy like this is how the two parties that control government in America keep a consolidated monopoly on democratic power.- DogBotherer, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2That's certainly exactly how it worked in the UK. The law and order problem reaction solution nonsense began under the Tories and has been considerably ramped up under NuLabour. If you're a liberal in the European sense or a libertarian in any real sense beyond being a "free" market globalist you really have nowhere worthwhile to go politically...
- Izult, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2You forgot the Military Commissions Act of 2006 - RIP Habeas Corpus, the John Werener National Defense Authorization Act (another 9/11 or Katrina potential martial law), and HR 1955 (Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorist Act. aka: Thought crime). Those combined with the patriot act and real idea just scare the ***** out of me.
- stlWill, on 01/27/2008, -3/+12At the mention of "Nazis" and "Papers" did anyone else thing of the Indiana Jones zeppelin scene?
- wonderboy, on 01/27/2008, -1/+18James Sensenbrenner is my representative. I look forward to voting against him (unfortunately he'll be reelected).
- Bakrain, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Spread the word about him, never underestimate the power of the individual.
- LukasSmith, on 01/27/2008, -61/+14DOoom!!!!!!!!! seriously how silly can the left be? Nazis? dungeons? papers? Its a @#$%ing drivers license with a few tiny changes. Stop watching Barney. Stop digging up pointless conspiracy theories.
- liveforthehunt, on 01/27/2008, -5/+45Obviously you don't work in the IT field or you'd understand the implications of what is occuring. Once they have the database in place, they can use whatever type of identification they want to identify you in the database or add additional fields. Want to start gun registrations? Add a field to the database and it's automatically tied to your ID. Want to add medical information? Done. This is wayyy to much power for ANY federal government to have.
- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -24/+3It's also impossible to stop, take that power away from the government and private business will just do the same thing, but it will cost more.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -3/+18I really don't recall any private business ever showing up at my door with a warrant. Or forbidding me from exiting or re-entering my country. Or telling me I must pay them for their services, even though I don't want them, would never support them, neither desire or need them, and feel they are outright immoral.
So no, I don't think it'll be the same thing if here and there, various private businesses implement record-keeping. - Spanktacular, on 01/27/2008, -1/+13The Unites States government is already the biggest customer of Choicepoint Data, my friends. The private sector is already involved in keeping people from polls, so keeping them from re-entering isn't that far of a stretch. The stretch would only be one Haliburton no-bid contract away, as a matter of fact.
- haydesigner, on 01/27/2008, -5/+2(Freaking Digg comment system is still screwed up... there is no 'reply' link to fyngyrz... ARGH!!)
@fyngyrz: "I really don't recall any private business ever showing up at my door with a warrant. Or forbidding me from exiting or re-entering my country."
Well, if the GOP keeps outsourcing everything, we very well may see private companies doing those things. - fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6haydesigner: Fine; but this is more reason to control the government, not less. It is in no way a justification for data consolidation in the hands of the government.
- Jlaugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4Blackwater showed up in Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina and went door to door in white neighborhoods disarming people at gun point. If you have car insurance you are mandated by law to have insurance. Private agencies keep track of all your credit, health records, phone records, internet usage etc the government just buys that info whenever they feel like it.
- Jlaugh, on 02/01/2008, -0/+1Your not understanding my point. I am not saying it's ok for them to do it. But even if they couldn't legally do so they could just outsource it to a private company and you'd never know it and it would cost you more since a profit motive is now in place.
Since they are going to do it no matter what we want it might as well be cheap and transparent and we should have complete access to it. Under the current system we have no access to privately collected data about us.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -3/+18I really don't recall any private business ever showing up at my door with a warrant. Or forbidding me from exiting or re-entering my country. Or telling me I must pay them for their services, even though I don't want them, would never support them, neither desire or need them, and feel they are outright immoral.
- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 01/27/2008, -13/+3Ok? What's the difference between that and creating a different identification card for the same ***** thing? They can still do that ***** with a separate I.D card, regardless of the Real ID. Seriously, do you people think before your spew your random *****? The government already has that ***** power, and they can do it regardless.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+7They do already have that power. It should be taken away from them; there is no legitimate reason for them to have it. In no way does "they already have it" serve as an excuse to give them more, consolidate the manner in which they keep it, or even to say "it's ok as is."
- Izult, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2States are the ones in charge of issuing most ID's and licenses. Each state is allowed to issue their OWN id, their OWN hunters/fishing/ license, their own stuff.. Follow? Right now a state issued id is good enough to board a plane, drive a car, enter a court house, file your taxes, get a job, buy a house, rent an appartment. Real ID passes and unless you've got the right kind of ID suddenly you can't get to places you used to go, AND your citizenship is suspect, and all those things you were able to do with your state id aren't so simple anymore if you don't have the right documentation to prove you're a citizen, when you were born etc. This is a states rights issue as well as a privacy issue.
- Jlaugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1The States already share database information, it's already centralized and has been since the early 90's. All real ID does is make it official.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+7They do already have that power. It should be taken away from them; there is no legitimate reason for them to have it. In no way does "they already have it" serve as an excuse to give them more, consolidate the manner in which they keep it, or even to say "it's ok as is."
- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -24/+3It's also impossible to stop, take that power away from the government and private business will just do the same thing, but it will cost more.
- ManoWar, on 01/27/2008, -4/+25You must understand the very wealth of the nation see the poor as cattle. Any farmer knows you must track your cattle.
- supermanred, on 01/27/2008, -0/+7You just said it perfectly. The cattle must be tracked.
Oh, and the rich may not even need a drivers license if they get chauferred around.
:) - Spanktacular, on 01/27/2008, -0/+12You mean like all those happy little Visa commercials with their sole purpose to convince the herd to use plastic payments instead of cash or checks? Why ever would the government and the private sector want you to participate in transactions that are tracked, cataloged, and analyzed by Choicepoint Data?
Buy any books or magazines the government doesn't like? Do it with Visa and it goes into a database. Contribute funds to an independent candidate the government doesn't like with your plastic money? Into the database it goes.
The thing most idiot diggers around here seem to forget is that there is no reason at all to put any data into a database unless there is something you plan on doing with it. Whatever could a joint venture between government and global corporations want with such data? The mind boggles...
- supermanred, on 01/27/2008, -0/+7You just said it perfectly. The cattle must be tracked.
- liveforthehunt, on 01/27/2008, -5/+45Obviously you don't work in the IT field or you'd understand the implications of what is occuring. Once they have the database in place, they can use whatever type of identification they want to identify you in the database or add additional fields. Want to start gun registrations? Add a field to the database and it's automatically tied to your ID. Want to add medical information? Done. This is wayyy to much power for ANY federal government to have.
- mithrasinvictus, on 01/27/2008, -13/+2 .
- samk, on 01/27/2008, -34/+10Your objection to RealID is based on what you imagine might happen in the future, not what it actually does. There's no provision for implementing a police state. And there's no requirement to include biometric data - meaning that states are no more likely to do that than they are already.
It basically standardizes driver's licenses and the documentation requirements to get one.- voyvf, on 01/27/2008, -0/+19Im in ur licensez, stealin' ur privacy!
Seriously, the Real ID Act will not only introduce a bureaucratic ***** storm to the process of getting a license (and enforcement of said licenses), it will also provide more power to the federal government in what has previously been something each state handled on their own.
Never mind that it's also an unfunded mandate, which means that while it empowers the federal government, it tosses the burden of support on each individual state.
I could go on, but instead, I invite you to read up on it yourself: http://epic.org/privacy/id-cards/ - sweetholymosiah, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6Will you bite the hand that feeds you? Will you stay down on your knees?
- mostlysane, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2dugg for some good rowdy karan casey/solas irish spirit
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+16STATEMENT OF
ADMINISTRATION
POLICY
H.R. 418 -- REAL ID Act of 2005
(Rep. Sensenbrenner (R) Wisconsin and 125 cosponsors), third paragraph:
"The Administration will also work with
Congress to consider biometric screening of individuals who cannot otherwise satisfactorily
demonstrate citizenship or lawful immigration status. Biometric screening, which is applied to
most entering classes of aliens through the US-VISIT program, would be a valuable tool in
identifying possible links to terrorism"
...so in other words, yes, they are definitely going to do biometrics.
Remember, they promised not to use the SSN for anything but your social security account. Look how *that* turned out. They regularly lose information about people, and they regularly abuse it as well. Don't be naive and willingly allow these people any more information about you. They've demonstrated no ability to handle such information.- ecidnac, on 01/27/2008, -10/+1Consider != definitely.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+11History: "We will NEVER use the SSN for ANYTHING but keeping track of your social security account"
More history: they used it for everything they bloody well could.
Lesson: Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.
Specifics here: They're explaining the inch to you; you interpret that as thinking they're only going to take a centimeter.
Personally, I find your reasoning questionable for what seem to me to be obvious reasons.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+11History: "We will NEVER use the SSN for ANYTHING but keeping track of your social security account"
- ecidnac, on 01/27/2008, -10/+1Consider != definitely.
- voyvf, on 01/27/2008, -0/+19Im in ur licensez, stealin' ur privacy!
- humanerror, on 04/03/2008, -10/+25Barack Obama supporters need to tell Senator Obama to rescind his fervent support of Real ID. Let's stop it now, while we still can!
- MacEnvy, on 01/27/2008, -3/+31Q: The Department of Homeland Security has proposed extensive Real ID requirements restricting which state ID cards can be accepted at federal buildings and airports. Do you support those regulations as written, would you want to repeal Real ID, or would you prefer something in between?
Obama: I do not support the Real ID program because it is an unfunded mandate, and not enough work has been done with the states to help them implement the program.
http://www.news.com/Technology-Voters-Guide-Barack ...
It's the answer I want, but not the reason I want.- cmackattack, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s200 ...- LeeSoong, on 01/28/2008, -1/+2Official Recorded Truth - wow, so different than Obama's lies.
- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -1/+4RealID is Unconstitutional, It violates States Rights and Civil Rights at the same time,
Usually such a weapon would be abused against those people most powerless to defend themselves: Poor Urban Blacks.
Obama - Don't sell out your own people... - akula89, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6Obama seems to be too trusting of the very government he is working for and assumes that Real ID would not be abused
- cmackattack, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4
- jon30041, on 01/27/2008, -0/+1Illinois is one of the 17 on the list.
Woo!
- MacEnvy, on 01/27/2008, -3/+31Q: The Department of Homeland Security has proposed extensive Real ID requirements restricting which state ID cards can be accepted at federal buildings and airports. Do you support those regulations as written, would you want to repeal Real ID, or would you prefer something in between?
- centran, on 01/27/2008, -10/+12Can someone please explain how this will turn into "papers please".
Cops already stop people walking on streets and ask for their IDs. I have seen it. You don't have to show them your ID(at least in my state). How will this change with the RealID? Right now you don't even have to get a driver's license or state id but it makes life easier. How will this change with the RealID... are they going to make you get an ID?- sweetholymosiah, on 01/27/2008, -2/+11if it's only perceived.... than the ID's sole purpose is domination. It seems only people with a REAL ID card will be able to prove themselves a REAL citizen. Let's say everyone without a card can't hold insurance. No car insurance, house insurance, MEDICAL insurance (pure tasty profits baby), and suddenly the entire country is enslaved, albeit a round about way. The mere legal potential should knock people out of their slumber.
- Kerrigore, on 01/27/2008, -3/+5"and suddenly the entire country is enslaved"
Enslaved by having to get an ID card? Don't you already have to have an ID for all the things RealID would be required for?- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6ALREADY - > it is Illegal to have a job without a SSN card.
Don't provide one after your hired, and most likely you'll be fired -
because the business must provide Homeland Security / I.R.S. with
social security numbers for employees.
United Slaves of Amerika.
Obey.
Submit.
Conform. - Kerrigore, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3You didn't answer the question. How is it that having to have a government-issued ID to access the things RealID will control enslaves you to the government or anyone else?
- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6ALREADY - > it is Illegal to have a job without a SSN card.
- tekkie001, on 01/27/2008, -1/+2@ sweetholymosiah You didn't answer the question, and it was a good one. I would like to hear someone give an intelligent answer to it. I don't know if I oppose this or not because I can't make any sense of it. We can "suppose" all we want but facts are best used in explanations.
- DeathfireD, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4Tekkie001, you’re right to some extent that we do have to show our "papers" to authority's. When we want to travel via plane we show our passport, when we open a bank account we show our SS number, when we buy a Gun we show out drivers license, When we buy beer or get pulled over we show our drivers license, etc. However, the major difference between what where doing now and what Real ID will be doing is this. Real ID will form a central database with all this info in it. This basically allows the government and anyone else that wants to look at it, full access to our lives without the need to contact other groups or deal with states to obtain the appropriate info. This also gives the government complete control over your life and no longer involves the states. So for example you're a bit late on paying your bills the government can, if they feel it’s necessary, kill your drivers license and right to travel by plane until you pay up. Ok here’s another one, say you own a gun that you inherited recently from a family member that died and you’re taking it home and a cop pulls you over and finds it. If it isn’t registered to you and they don’t believe it was a family members they can, ultimately kill your right to drive, travel, or set foot in a bank. The bottom line is the government will have complete control over your life if they really want to. Right now, if they want to punish you they have to deal with communicating with states and other groups and this, more often then not, doesn’t benefit them. The Real ID will not stop criminals or terrorists from doing what they’ve been doing but will pose a threat to us the US citizens. Do you really think a robber is going to care about a drivers license or a registered gun? I don’t. Do you think this will stop people from sneaking over the boarder and getting jobs as yard workers or selling drugs? I don’t. So its only real use, at least that I can see, is to help establish more power for the government over its people. This is just my opinion though so don’t get angry if you feel differently.
- smurfsahoy, on 01/27/2008, -0/+3From what I read, FEDERAL agents could pull up all of your information, or at least they are the only ones that can ***** with it, even if anybody can pull it up. A beat cop pulling you over could not suspend your flight privileges. And when was the last time you got stopped for speeding by the FBI? or a US marshal? Especially one who had it out for you? If you have FBI agents tailing you on a regular basis, waiting for you to slip up, then you're probably doing something very wrong already...
Even if the people with power do pull you over and want to punish you, they cant just do it out of nowhere. With the exception of driver's licenses (while you're driving, for obvious reasons) you have to be convicted of something first, which means a trial/hearing, and people involved in those already generally have access to whatever they need to restrict you as necessary. If I go knock over a liquor store today, the local system can easily suspend my travel privileges for bail. THey don't need Real ID. - vandalin7, on 01/27/2008, -0/+3The government will always know where you are going and when you get back. Especially if u have an EZ pass (the toll both thing that just charges a credit card). They will know aspects of your daily routines, and your medical history. I don't want my best friends to know that sort of stuff let alone the government. Its also an easy form of controlling the masses.
for instance: if there were a revolution they would be able to find key leaders and certain influential individuals, which would make it very easy to suppress any sort resistance. Its hard to speak out against a government that knows where you are at all times. The government should fear us we shouldn't be afraid of them. - tekkie001, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1@ DeathfireD I think you had my comment mixed up with someone else's but understand the explanation of why you oppose the ID. What I gather from the above paragraph is right now the layers of bureaucracy themselves act as a protective barrier between the public and the government. The Real ID would consolidate information and remove some of that protection. I guess we give up much more than we get in this instance. Thanks for the explanation.
- smurfsahoy, on 01/28/2008, -1/+2@ vandalin Yes, because revolutionary leaders would totally pay their traffic tolls with an EZ pass... Oh, and they also do all of their own shopping and driving, and they voluntarily put little security flags on their RealIDs just to conveniently let everyone know that they're a leader of the prospective new republic...
- smurfsahoy, on 01/28/2008, -1/+2@tekkie, This bill does not suspend habeus corpus, due process, etc. They can't punish you just for fun simply because there's a realID program. They still have to try you, and so on. And by the time they do, there's pretty much just as much beaurocracy as before.
- vandalin7, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6One more thing. Lets say you got a speeding ticket (or some other mundane fine/charge) and you forget to pay the fine. Next time you go to pick up your prescription from the pharmacy, or you have an emergency and you need to charge something on your credit card (like a bus/train ticket). They could put a "stop" on your I.D. card, which would create a lot of problems for people. Even if you just forget to bring it with you there could be problems.
- Kerrigore, on 01/27/2008, -3/+5"and suddenly the entire country is enslaved"
- pixelwerx, on 01/27/2008, -0/+15According to the Department of Homeland Security, you will be required to show a Real ID in order to board a domestic flight or enter a National Park. American citizens, whose home states reject Real ID, will be required to present a passport. Please let that sink in for a moment. American citizens will be required to present a passport to travel in the United States. That sounds a lot like "papers please" to me.
- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -1/+10I want to be the first American Citizen FORCED to show a passport to enter a national park, just so I can have the ACLU push this all the way to the Supreme Court.
And you wonder why people who want to keep their civil rights support Ron Paul?
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues
http://www.aclu.org
- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -1/+10I want to be the first American Citizen FORCED to show a passport to enter a national park, just so I can have the ACLU push this all the way to the Supreme Court.
- richIsBored, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6Suppose Real ID cards have integrated RFID (which is what I have heard is the case). Under such circumstances you'd be constantly "showing your papers" only nobody would need to ask for them.
Can they force you to get one? No. But these IDs are slated to replace state IDs and driver's licences so it's safe to say that if quite a few things would become difficult for you do partake in.- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -0/+8Real-ID is 'Phase I' - the question is, what is 'Phase II' ?
- willfe, on 01/27/2008, -1/+10Did you actually *read* any of the linked material? Under the new mandates for Real ID, you *must have a Real ID* to hold a job, get a bank account, fly in (or pilot) a plane, drive a car, etc. *One* type of ID required (and the only type permitted) to have any real chance of moving around within the country's own damned borders ("papers please" indeed), safely storing money, *earning* money, etc. Did you annoy the government this week, citizen? It seems your Real ID has been revoked ... well, now you're under arrest for driving without a valid license, and when you try to bail yourself out of jail tonight you'll find your bank accounts frozen (because your Real ID is revoked), and your boss won't help you either because you can no longer even prove you're a citizen. Sorry 'bout that, step this way for processing.
- sweetholymosiah, on 01/27/2008, -2/+11if it's only perceived.... than the ID's sole purpose is domination. It seems only people with a REAL ID card will be able to prove themselves a REAL citizen. Let's say everyone without a card can't hold insurance. No car insurance, house insurance, MEDICAL insurance (pure tasty profits baby), and suddenly the entire country is enslaved, albeit a round about way. The mere legal potential should knock people out of their slumber.
- Pixelante, on 01/27/2008, -8/+20I always find it incredibly funny how diggers will extol the virtues of Europe over the US but conveniently forget that, in Europe, ID is mandatory. In many states it is mandatory to carry it on your person, and the police WILL ask you for ID if they stop you for whatever reason. Yes, they can stop and ask you for your ID because they don't like your face. Yes, they will stop you and ask for your ID because you look suspect. Happens all the time, Europeans don't make a fuss about that, they know it's for their own safety - perceived or not.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -7/+20Many Europeans have never known liberty; it is difficult to expect them to recognize when it is being suppressed. Well informed US citizens know better. It is disingenuous to imply that "diggers", inclusive, point to all things European and assert they are better. I'm a digger, and I can cite chapter and verse both positive and negative; that's the way the world is. For instance, much of Europe is more advanced with regard to supplying healthcare to its citizens; that's a huge positive and worth pointing at. On the other hand, much of Europe suppresses free speech, which is a huge negative. And so forth. We'd rather not add errors to our system, that's all.
- noof, on 01/27/2008, -3/+10Examples of european countries that suppress free speech? Since you said "much of europe" you don't have to list them all.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -2/+9Sure. Germany and France have very specific laws with regard to Nazi artifacts, remarks, publications. Laws against "holocaust denial." Some countries have even outlawed the wearing of some religious clothing.
Any other questions? I'll be here all day. - noahhoward, on 01/27/2008, -8/+2So? Care to explain how that is any different than the states, fyngyrz? Also, would you care to explain how any of that is bad?
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+9I can do that, Noah. First, in the states, we can collect memorabilia. Second, we can talk about it, including pro and con viewpoints. We can do this with our voices, in pamphlets, newspapers, books, etc. We can deny the holocaust and we can marshall arguments against it (and get our asses kicked in said argument by reasonable people who know history for our trouble.) We won't get sent to jail for any of this. In Europe, you CAN go to jail, and people DO go to jail, for these very things. Look up David Irving, for example. Just google his name.
How is it bad? It is important that citizens be able to discuss things the government does not approve of, so they can counter mistakes in legislation, and that is a *critical* issue. It is also a lot more useful to let (for instance) white supremacists speak so you know who they are, and what they believe, than to have them still there, but suppressed, so that when they begin to take action, you have no idea who they are. Generally, the suppression of ideas is a bad thing, no matter what the ideas are. Some ideas will be taken as "bad" because they are not politically correct (for example, women are sexy) or because they are not religiously correct (the earth orbits the sun), yet in fact, they ARE correct ideas. When the government (or religion, when in power) takes action to suppress things not popular, legitimate ideas can result in both the idea being suppressed and in people getting hurt for no legitimate reason (look up Giordano Bruno for an example, or David Irving.)
Another problem is the general idea that governments exist to be your mother. That's a dangerous idea. In the USA, the founders believe that government exists to provide services to the citizens. Services such as protection from incursions by other countries onto our soil; maintaining roads, a stable currency, standardized weights and measures, that sort of thing. Not to tell us what we can say, what weapons we may own, what religion or other beliefs we may subscribe to, not to accost us on the streeet and demand our identities or throw us into jail without just cause, and so forth. This is the essence of liberty, and as you give up this item here and that item there, you inevitably have less and less -- and yes, my friend, that's a very, very bad thing indeed. - DogBotherer, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4The request was to give some examples of countries which suppress free speech, fyngrz gave two specific named examples and two more without naming names. You can argue that restricting Nazi/holocaust-denier speech is acceptable or even desirable, but you can't argue that they aren't valid examples. As I understand it, neither type of speech is illegal in the US (it may be subject to a chilling effect from being un-PC, but that's not the same thing).
- Pixelante, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Go to Italy, say aloud that maybe something Mussolini has done wasn't that bad. Apology of Fascism is punished. So is insulting the President of the Republic. Go to Germany or Austria, say that not all Waffen SS or Nazi Party members were bad. See what happens.
Go to France. Talk about Sarkozy the way Michael Moore talks about Bush. Jail time, dude. Jail time.
Anyway, Europeans are fine with these laws. And it's not only Europe, go and visit Thailand and you'll find a truckload of stuff you can't do, and Thais are Ok with that.
You'd be amazed how many people couldn't care less about "freedom" in the US sense. Quiet living is much more valued there. - boobie, on 01/28/2008, -4/+1In my opinion, Holocaust laws are a poor example of restriction of free speech. While I am not certain how I feel about such laws, they certainly need to be looked at in the context of the history of those countries. Germany's history of Nazism and France's Vichy history certainly are strong motivators. Laws against "hate speech" are present in a number of countries, Europe and elsewhere. In reality, the US allows private entities such as corporations, universities and the like to regulate hate speech. To say that "much of Europe suppresses free speech" based on laws against hate speech is misleading.
And you don't think the government should have some say in what weapons we own? I could go on for pages with that! - fyngyrz, on 01/28/2008, -1/+8"In my opinion, Holocaust laws are a poor example of restriction of free speech."
In mine, they're a perfect example. The speech we despise the most is the speech that needs the most protection. We don't need to protect speech that is politically correct; we need to protect those people who would speak out against the surrent status quo, those who disagree, and we need to examine those arguments most carefully.
"While I am not certain how I feel about such laws, they certainly need to be looked at in the context of the history of those countries."
No. They need to be looked at as a failure of government to allow its people the liberty of free speech.
"Germany's history of Nazism and France's Vichy history certainly are strong motivators."
Yes. This is one of the reasons why we need to pay VERY careful attention when people speak about them. Not shut them up.
"Laws against "hate speech" are present in a number of countries"
They all represent failures of government; repression of citizens instead of enabling them to speak freely.
"Europe and elsewhere. In reality, the US allows private entities such as corporations, universities and the like to regulate hate speech."
Yes. You are king of your castle. It is an irreplaceable cornerstone of liberty. But your right to control ends where your property ends.
To say that "much of Europe suppresses free speech" based on laws against hate speech is misleading.
No, it isn't. It is precise and accurate. And furthermore, it isn't just speech, it is books, historical documents, memorabilia, etc. It is a sickness born of fear and implemented out of ignorance.
"And you don't think the government should have some say in what weapons we own? I could go on for pages with that!"
Feel free. I suspect I can answer any point you care to bring up. Starting with the government is not our mommie. When the constitution was written, you could pull a heavily armed private frigate up to your doorstep, assuming only you had a river at your doorstep and a suitable dock or anchorage. Armament could easily be sufficient to destroy a town or hamlet in just a few minutes. You could own knives, swords, long rifles, pistols, fused bombs, caches of powder, shot, own your own bullet-making facilities, etc, etc.
With all this in mind, the founders still wrote: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The prefatory phrase, the one that says all men capable of bearing arms should have at least basic weaponry were important to maintaining the state of security enjoyed by a free people, isn't really relevant except it tells you what they were thinking, and that was, the people would eventually need to defend themselves against the government, just as they had just finished doing.
But please, if you'd like to talk about why it is important to be able to keep and bear arms, or why you think it isn't, do. By all means. ;-) - gudnbluts, on 01/28/2008, -1/+2Pixelante:- "Go to Italy, say aloud that maybe something Mussolini has done wasn't that bad. Apology of Fascism is punished. So is insulting the President of the Republic. Go to Germany or Austria, say that not all Waffen SS or Nazi Party members were bad. See what happens.
Go to France. Talk about Sarkozy the way Michael Moore talks about Bush. Jail time, dude. Jail time."
Your ignorance is overwhelming. None of those things are illegal in any of those countries. - RockinRoel, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1gudnbluts is right! None of these things are illegal. As far as I know, there have only been punishments on the actual creepy KKK-like guys. In our case, creepy neonazi guys. You Americans let too much foolish things be done. Do you really want to have teachers teaching creationism? You guys go too far in your "freedom".
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -2/+9Sure. Germany and France have very specific laws with regard to Nazi artifacts, remarks, publications. Laws against "holocaust denial." Some countries have even outlawed the wearing of some religious clothing.
- noahhoward, on 01/27/2008, -8/+3"Many Europeans have never known liberty;"
Ha ha ha *****! You haven't a clue what you're talking about. - 68024, on 01/27/2008, -4/+5"Many Europeans have never known liberty; it is difficult to expect them to recognize when it is being suppressed. Well informed US citizens know better"
As a European living in the US, I can clearly state, you are clearly talking out of your ass. I feel more free in Europe than I do here for one. I wonder if you have actually ever been to Europe.- fyngyrz, on 01/28/2008, -4/+4I have. I have lived in the UK, Italy, and France.
So, have your European friends and family bought - or even found in a store - any books on Hitler as adored leader lately? On theories of how the Holocaust was a fraud? Sold a Nazi medal or uniform via EBay lately?
No, I didn't think so. Because - and here it comes, Euro-person: You're not at LIBERTY to do so.
And before you get all pissed at me, the fact of the matter is, it's not my fault. You have only yourselves to blame. You, your constitutions, your leaders. If you can't speak freely, you are familiar with only the faintest shadow of liberty. - gudnbluts, on 01/28/2008, -4/+1fyngrz:- You're such a liar. Holocaust denial and Nazi stuff are certainly legal in the UK and Italy. Don't know about France. You have no idea what you're talking about. The UK doesn't have an ID card either. Europe is a myth.
- 68024, on 01/28/2008, -3/+2fyngrz: Dude, you live in a fantasy world. I don't want to see this nazi ***** in stores. Good they banned it. And as gundbluts says, it's not even illegal everywhere. Now where in the USA do I go buy some pot without being hunted down by the police? Is prostitution legal here? Where do I go not to have to feel afraid to be gunned down by some idiot because guns are legal? Where do I find a policeman that treats me as a person instead of cattle? Your good old US of A really isn't that much of a paradise. Keep dreaming.
- ZenMojo, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3Fyngyrz, when was the last time you did any of that ***** in the United States?
- RockinRoel, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Rage Against The Machine was saying: FREEDOM! Yeah right!
I don't hear anyone complaining here.
- fyngyrz, on 01/28/2008, -4/+4I have. I have lived in the UK, Italy, and France.
- RockinRoel, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1At least we're free to pick our leading party in a more democratic way, rather than a totally skewed state-based system.
- noof, on 01/27/2008, -3/+10Examples of european countries that suppress free speech? Since you said "much of europe" you don't have to list them all.
- DogBotherer, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6It's not mandatory in all of Europe yet... The UK is still ID card free for now, and it looks like Ireland, Denmark and Norway are still safe refuges at present:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_identity_card ...
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -7/+20Many Europeans have never known liberty; it is difficult to expect them to recognize when it is being suppressed. Well informed US citizens know better. It is disingenuous to imply that "diggers", inclusive, point to all things European and assert they are better. I'm a digger, and I can cite chapter and verse both positive and negative; that's the way the world is. For instance, much of Europe is more advanced with regard to supplying healthcare to its citizens; that's a huge positive and worth pointing at. On the other hand, much of Europe suppresses free speech, which is a huge negative. And so forth. We'd rather not add errors to our system, that's all.
- mrjhmm, on 01/27/2008, -3/+21A requirement to carry an identity card at all times can lead to the inconvenience of arbitrary requests from card controllers (such as the police). A possible interaction when randomly harassed by the police: "Show me your your card!" "Oh, you 'lost' your card." "You must be a criminal, prepare to be Tased!"
National ID Card coupled with debit and credit cards in a cashless society is a system of totalitarianism where centralized commercial banking system control the economic-political life of citizens, governments, businesses and markets.
Cards with centralized database could be used to track anyone's movements and private life, thus endangering privacy.
Historically, totalitarian governments which issued identity cards to citizens used them forcefully. For example, Nazi Germany made use of tattooed identification numbers on the arms of concentration-camp detainees. More recently, the apartheid-era government of South Africa used pass books as internal passports to oppress that country's black population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#Arg ...- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -1/+5Even better, they could officially take your card 'because it looks like it might be a fake' -
now you are stuck - no card - no job - no food.
Die, nonperson.
- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -1/+5Even better, they could officially take your card 'because it looks like it might be a fake' -
- cnot3, on 01/27/2008, -1/+12Gib mir deine Papiere! Schneller!!!!
- xxxana, on 01/27/2008, -17/+3I don't know why you are all against ID cards. This should be obligated in every country, I think. There are nothing but good things about ID cards. Government can keep an eye on potential terrorists, gun owners, the card (if electronic) can be upgraded to be a library card, bus pass, method of payment, password-free online registering (so noone can crack your account), and it makes sure pedophiles can't log in to certain chatrooms.
I fully support REALID, I think everyone in the world should have an identity card holding personal data (but not religion or sexual orientation).- xxxana, on 01/27/2008, -9/+1wow; digging me down instead of coming with arguments, nice oO
- vandalin7, on 01/28/2008, -1/+6No one has to argue; 17 states already said that your wrong. Point has already been proven.
- xxxana, on 01/28/2008, -6/+1but tell me why you are against it?
- centran, on 01/28/2008, -1/+1I still think the states disagree with RealID is because of money. In the long run it will make things easier and cheaper for the states. This means they will not get as much funding for their DMVs. funding that several states have be accused of diverting to other areas other then ID/driving/database purposes.
- njcarlos, on 01/28/2008, -1/+2These are the problems with "RealID."
The first is that it has, from what I've heard, an RFID chip. This alone is basically like wearing an ankle bracelet akin to those required by criminal offenders on parole. "Well what's so bad about that" you might ask? What's bad is that you're allowing the government to not only electronically monitor your movement, but you're also equating yourself to a criminal that requires that monitoring. Additionally, the implied monitoring, whether active or not, is a fundamental violation of our privacy.
The second problem is that it creates a Federal standard rather than a state standard. I know that in North Carolina, it is easier to get a license than it is in NJ or NY. Also, it would be easier for us as a people to decide whether we want it or not, and if we don't, we can handle it at a state level. It would be much easier to say "No" to a state government than a monolithic Federal government.
The third problem relates to the second problem. Driver's licenses are truly voluntary, in so much as that they are not required for identification. You could just as easily bring in utility or service bills with a non-governmental photo ID. I'm certain that if you didn't drive, as many people do not, accommodations could be made with PRIVATE sector airlines and the like, to allow alternative methods of identification. Ditto for banks, as they are also private sector businesses.
The fourth problem is that it will require biometric data in addition to the standard identification information. This information will be stored in a CENTRAL database, not an uncoordinated decentralized system such as state-by-state. This central database will be accessed regularly, or as regular as you use the card. I'm certain they will begin to manufacture some sort of device to swipe the card and not only authenticate but log that activity. So, if you fly, they know where you are. If you open a bank account, they know where you are. If you go buy liquor, they know who you are. Etc, etc. You know have a database consisting of past activity, and information so private it constitutionally should not be in the hands of the government. They government shouldn't HAVE to know if I open a bank account unless I'm receiving interest. They shouldn't HAVE to know if I'm flying to California. They shouldn't HAVE to know if I'm leaving the country and what I do in other countries.
The fifth problem relates to the fourth, in regard to the fact that it is now in a central database. It is a multifaceted problem because (1) a single compromise of this database would reek havoc on the population, (2) multiple government officials will be able to access this information thus opening the door for corruption, violence, and much more, and (3) this database will lend access capabilities to Mexico and Canada (speculated).
This is really just a short list I could think off the top of my head 5 minutes before going to sleep. I trust that you value your privacy and freedom. If you truly feel so insecure that you must lend your daily activities and provide logs to the government, so be it, but don't force others to do so as well. Additionally, just the idea of a central bank of biometric identification with real-time monitoring and logging is so disgustingly surveillance-like in nature, you wonder that this would be the start of the steepest slope you've imagined. Remember that government doesn't relinquish power as easily as it seizes it, and I don't appreciate them holding that sort of power over me. What is next is retinal scans, finger-print scans, daily reporting of location, and so much more. What you should wonder is this: if you hate the government and how it runs the DMV, FEMA, taxes, etc...why would you trust them to watch over you with no system of checks and balances or transparency?- dferrand, on 01/28/2008, -1/+0The funny thing is, if all of that happens. and you need to escape to another country. You'll have to get a Federal ID (a Passport) to enter.
- Scott83k, on 01/28/2008, -2/+1Yeah New Hampshire! Live Free or DIE
- InsultComedy, on 01/28/2008, -2/+9Obama voted for the Patriot Act.
- PrincessSalami, on 01/28/2008, -0/+5PAPERS! Where are your Papers!? / German accent.
- alfitzhugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1I see nothing, NOTHING!
- straylight08, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1It reminds me of what's getting implemented over here in the UK - in fact this American "real ID" thing is pretty much a carbon copy of the UK ID cards proposal, which is just as opressive as the one mentioned in this article. Shame there isn't as much opposition to it here in Britain though.
- Ragecloak, on 01/27/2008, -4/+150yea except nazis didnt have biometric technology like we do
- edward9145, on 01/27/2008, -28/+157666
- brainboy77, on 01/27/2008, -5/+35The Number of The Beast
- Devotia, on 01/27/2008, -3/+22Hell and fire was spawned to be released
- parasight, on 01/27/2008, -1/+20Torches blazed and sacred chants were phrased
- acdcfanbill, on 01/27/2008, -1/+17As they start to cry hands held to the sky
- MaTT2011, on 01/27/2008, -1/+17In the night the fires are burning bright,
the ritual has begun SaTan's work is done!!! - Kerrigore, on 01/27/2008, -8/+2What foul beast slouches toward Bethleham to be born...
AMIDOINITRITE?
- parasight, on 01/27/2008, -1/+20Torches blazed and sacred chants were phrased
- ahoyhoy, on 01/27/2008, -6/+7And none may buy or sell lest they bare the number...
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -2/+12Bear.
Bare = naked. Bear = carry.
Language. Your most powerful tool of communication. Well worth getting right so people are more inclined to take you seriously.- Kerrigore, on 01/27/2008, -4/+2But bears also eat people, thus must be avoided, so bare is the safer term. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -2/+12Bear.
- carpespasm, on 01/27/2008, -1/+10well, the number was either 666, 656, or 616, according to which part of the bible you want to read, but don't let little things like that worry you, RealID is much scarier than ancient plot errors.
- lex0nyc, on 01/27/2008, -0/+28Quoth the server, "404."
- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -2/+8"Nevermore"
- lex0nyc, on 01/27/2008, -0/+28Quoth the server, "404."
- mungins, on 01/27/2008, -0/+5Sacrifice is going on tonight.
- Devotia, on 01/27/2008, -3/+22Hell and fire was spawned to be released
- airwalkery2k, on 01/27/2008, -3/+29Wow! How did you know the number on my REAL ID?
- cmackattack, on 01/27/2008, -1/+1You see, I have this scanner thingy which powers up your passive RFID chip embedded in the card and I just download ALL YOUR INFORMATION...ID Number is nothing...look at this info about you I have now...encryption you say? Check out this cool software crack tool I just download off the Net...Neat huh?
- surfacewound, on 01/27/2008, -3/+7Dammit, when I dugg this article mine was the 665th; I kept refreshing hoping to get 666, but it suddenly jumped to 685. :(
- hunkofamonk, on 01/28/2008, -0/+0thats cause everyone else was trying to get it too hehehe
- mrdiggdude, on 01/27/2008, -8/+9lol funny that it had 666 diggs http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7459/666wd2.jpg
- reubencm, on 01/27/2008, -1/+16how did you want it to happen? you do realize that every article with more than 665 diggs once had 666 diggs?
- bobrice830, on 01/27/2008, -6/+3This has nothing to do with Nero Caesar, sorry.
- rizzo2008, on 01/27/2008, -6/+2ωδέ η σοφία εστίν; ο έχων νουν ψηφισάτω τον αριθμόν του θηρίου; αριθμός γαρ ανθρώπου εστί; και ο αριθμός αυτού χξς'.
- willster580, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Agreed.
- PURPLEDRINK, on 01/28/2008, -2/+2derka derka derka
- Larz0rz, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1It's Greek...
- Paranoidmarvin, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6You mean 616:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#6 ... - dhl07, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2Haha...the banner at the bottom is of a chick with a barcode on her forehead.
- brainboy77, on 01/27/2008, -5/+35The Number of The Beast
- Frostman3D, on 01/27/2008, -8/+349***** Real ID and ***** any Government that would force it on us.
- temjrpgh, on 01/27/2008, -2/+20I agree with the spirit, if not the profane expression of it. This gives me a lot of hope.
- LukasSmith, on 01/27/2008, -30/+5I for one could care less.
- gr3yn3t, on 01/27/2008, -7/+16you are the problem.
- Onyxblaze, on 01/27/2008, -11/+2He said he could care less. That means he cares more than the minimal. Yes, people should think about the meaning of their malapropisms before they say them.
- gr3yn3t, on 01/27/2008, -7/+16you are the problem.
- kendawg, on 01/27/2008, -25/+3So let me get this right.....if you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Am I right or is there something I'm missing?
- gr3yn3t, on 01/27/2008, -0/+15Essentially, yes..
But it's the principal of freedom. We shouldn't EVER be afraid of our government, and they should NEVER have the right to spy on their innocent people. That's what the Real ID act would allow..- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -3/+8Aren't they looking for blond blue eye terrorists now?
- etherreal, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6The question is, who gets to define "terrorist". Sure, it is Islamo-fascists now, but in 10 years it might be "those godless bastards that refuse to carry their RealID card..."
- LeeSoong, on 01/27/2008, -0/+3You mean but in 10 years it might be 'Those mouth-breathing, sky praying, flesh eating Christians!'
- The problem with a police state, is usually the worst abuses will be used against those people who thought they were safe, until later ...
- kendawg, on 01/27/2008, -9/+3Thanks for an answer instead of just burying me. I guess I can see why people would be upset, but it doesn't upset me. I don't plan terrorist attacks, so they will probably never look at any of my information anyway.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -0/+12 In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. - rarson, on 01/27/2008, -0/+7That's entirely the point. They WILL use these tools against innocent people. There's no reason for them not to. Why wouldn't the ruling class want to do everything they can to stay in power?
If you give government power, you'll never get it back. - cmackattack, on 01/27/2008, -0/+3
You should absolutely worry about the destruction of the Constitution....
The first (Free Speech Zones and permits anyone?), Fifth, Sixth, Seventh (Habeas corpus anyone?), Eighth (Tazing and water boarding anyone?), Ninth and Tenth amendments are already being trampled on;
This realid will kill the forth; Next will be the Second and Third. That's really, really sad. Only three tenths, 3/10, of the original Bill of Rights are really left...for now....it's almost toast people.
Please attempt to argue my points...
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -0/+12 In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -3/+8Aren't they looking for blond blue eye terrorists now?
- slenderdog, on 01/27/2008, -1/+4Yes, but "either you're with us or with the terrorists."
- rarson, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6I don't get it. Americans aren't free to live as they please, because the terrorists will get us? I mean, isn't there a ton of other possible death scenarios that we risk in stride every day that have nothing to do with terrorists?
Your car could crash, a plane could crash, a postal worker could flip out, you could be diagnosed with cancer, etc. The point is, if you spend your entire life worrying about every little thing that MIGHT happen, you're not living it at all.- Jlaugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2No you do get it. Terrorism is less dangerous to the average person than bad drivers are. The war on terrorists is a war on the American people by our own elite.
- gr3yn3t, on 01/27/2008, -0/+15Essentially, yes..
- svivian, on 01/27/2008, -12/+6Way to overreact. I don't live in the US but there's talk of a similar thing in the UK. All this fuss and criticism is totally unfounded, they're hardly going to make a difference.
- Frustian, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4That's exactly what the government wants you to think. They want you to think it's no big deal, and if it helps stop the boogeyman (The T word which the Governments have been nailing into our head trying to get us to be scared of everything, and accept ridiculous things like this so we're "safe") then it's ok. The U.S. is headed right into a dictatorship/totalitarian future, and most Americans have no idea it's coming. Read a little more about things like Homeland Security, The Patriot Act, Etc. and don't expect the 6 o'clock news to hand feed you information. They can't say these things because men in suits would 'take care' of them.
- nitsua8, on 01/27/2008, -8/+1it would certainly help with the iillegal immigration problem
- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3
you forgot to use the sarcasm tag.
e.g. /sarcasm
- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3
- mikehrp, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#Data_requ ...
- 8m4ck, on 01/27/2008, -1/+18https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&p ...
- mountaincable, on 01/27/2008, -2/+2For more information on helping fight Real ID, please provide us with all of your personal details. Thank you for your cooperation.
- t3soro, on 01/27/2008, -1/+4its a form to mail your rep & senators you *****
- mountaincable, on 01/27/2008, -2/+2For more information on helping fight Real ID, please provide us with all of your personal details. Thank you for your cooperation.
- UnstableMind, on 01/27/2008, -3/+72Ausweis, bitte
- captoftheworld, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2Ficken Sie ab!
- DestroyFascism, on 01/28/2008, -1/+3Yep ***** it off....
- knobbers, on 01/27/2008, -130/+10so you tards enjoy illegal immigration?
- clintontj72, on 01/27/2008, -3/+57All the implements are there for I.D. This a grab by the Feds to control ID. By the Constitution the Feds do not have this authority..the states do...the Feds MUST stop meddling. The Feds also force/punish states that do not give welfare to illegals. Stop the welfare, hold employers accountable(there is a Social Security # database for this already) which cuts out the jobs...remove the incentives! Cut out birthright citizenship to people here illegally...ZERO benefits...they will leave.
You seriously buy the Feds line? Chumps buy that garbage!- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -0/+10Keep in mind any use of the SSN for anything but your social security account is a misuse of power that the feds promised would "never happen."
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -0/+10Keep in mind any use of the SSN for anything but your social security account is a misuse of power that the feds promised would "never happen."
- Zarokima, on 01/27/2008, -0/+39Indeed. All these idiots throwing a hissy fit because the government is punishing law abiding citizens for no reason -- the nerve of these people!
- Clp727, on 01/27/2008, -1/+13The only reason that illegal immigration is out of control is because the laws simply aren't being enforced. It wouldn't surprise me if the Federal Government has ordered law enforcement to stand down on arresting and deporting illegal immigrants so that the corporations of the US could have cheap labor.
- rizzo2008, on 01/27/2008, -1/+13We don't need a national ID to curb illegal immigration. We need stricter border control and respect for existing law. This would just be another big brother surveillance tool used to monitor every thing a person does.
Next step: chips implanted in all human beings- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1which have been proven to cause cancer and skin irritation....this is the whole "boils" comment on the mark of the beast, etc..etc...
- LucidHawk, on 01/27/2008, -0/+5Of the 30 million+ illegals if more than 1% are forced to get the ID or if it actually prohibits them from many benefits; I'll be amazed and consider it possibly worth it, but the most powerful people in this nation are hypocrites and would never allow it to harm their precious illegals. Just as that fence will never be built. Illegals will be given more rights than the average citizen as is now probably worse. It's predictable if you understand the big business globalist motives behind most senators and congressmen.
- Notasheeple, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2Ah yes, the trolls are giving knobbers again......................
- peticsu, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1how would this prevent illegal immigration? If your ass wasnt on the computer commenting on this but working out in the fields doing the jobs they do they wouldnt be here in the first place?
- clintontj72, on 01/27/2008, -3/+57All the implements are there for I.D. This a grab by the Feds to control ID. By the Constitution the Feds do not have this authority..the states do...the Feds MUST stop meddling. The Feds also force/punish states that do not give welfare to illegals. Stop the welfare, hold employers accountable(there is a Social Security # database for this already) which cuts out the jobs...remove the incentives! Cut out birthright citizenship to people here illegally...ZERO benefits...they will leave.
- iraq, on 01/27/2008, -7/+73there is hope for America, after all.
- Zarokima, on 01/27/2008, -2/+14Not in my state :(
- tandy400, on 01/27/2008, -0/+18Ron Paul?
- akula89, on 01/27/2008, -0/+10well, Paul is vehemently opposed to the RealID
- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+8Because he is a defender of the constitution....forth amendment is part of the constitution, bill of rights...rights...those things you are born with, ya know?
- alfitzhugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1RON PAUL!!!
- akula89, on 01/27/2008, -0/+10well, Paul is vehemently opposed to the RealID
- chesbomb, on 01/27/2008, -4/+183"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Uranium118, on 01/27/2008, -6/+18" 'Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious,' according to Oscar Wilde. "
- pauleric, on 01/27/2008, -3/+7"The tree of vice must be its own reward for bloody virtue, otherwise life just wouldn't be worth living", according to me.
- SublimeRuin, on 01/27/2008, -3/+13"it's not easy being green"
- RockinRoel, on 01/27/2008, -1/+2…I'm green, and it'll do fine. It's beautiful, and I think it's what I want to be…
- Elliuotatar, on 01/27/2008, -2/+5"Why are there so many songs about rainbows? And what's on the other side?
Rainbows are visions, but only illusions, rainbows have nothing to hide." - doyoulikeworms, on 01/27/2008, -2/+16What is this? Why is everyone posting ***** quotes in response to this guy's good quote?
- pauleric, on 01/27/2008, -1/+8"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." - Maugham.
Oh wait, was that a rhetorical question? Here you go then "No nation keeps its word. A nation is a big, blind worm, following what? Fate perhaps. A nation has no honor, it has no word to keep." - Jung.
And one for the road: "No, I do not like worms, unless they are deep-fried in delicious bacon grease." - me- etherreal, on 01/27/2008, -1/+4“I quote others only in order the better to express myself.” -Montaigne.
- pauleric, on 01/27/2008, -1/+8"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." - Maugham.
- trevor98, on 01/27/2008, -2/+5Are you that patriot? Or, are you just talk and digging?
- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 01/27/2008, -4/+8"It really sucks to be a tree." - a tree
- joegibes, on 01/27/2008, -2/+10"Quote from when you die in Call of Duty"
- hplasm, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6Plenty of patriotic blood being spilt- when do the tyrants start to donate?
- PhantomPhoenix, on 01/27/2008, -1/+1The blood of patriots must be willfully given, it must never be taken without consent; but, the blood of tyrants can be taken, if it is the will of the patriots. However, the decision to take any blood must never be made by only one - it must be a collective decision and it must be made with great graveness for life itself is the most sacred possession of mankind, no matter what life is lead (be it the life of a patriot or of a tyrant).
- PhantomPhoenix, on 01/27/2008, -0/+1*led
- vspazv, on 01/28/2008, -1/+1"The easiest way to end an argument is to make sure the other person can't respond. Historically, the preferred method is violence."
- evan2024, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3- Thomas Jefferson
- evan2024, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Jefferson
- irvman21, on 01/27/2008, -64/+11I just want people to have to prove they are American citizens before they vote in American elections. Is that too much to ask?
- clintontj72, on 01/27/2008, -1/+35State ID?
- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -2/+14Why would it matter if they're citizens, the elections are rigged anyways. I predict the next president will be a member of the CFR.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -1/+4Well, let me ask you this. Suppose -- in a horror-filled reality where you cower under your bed in fear of non-citizens voting at the booths unchecked -- with 300 million of us, and maybe 10% or 20% that many non-citizens (most of whom do live here, do pay taxes indirectly if not actually on a per-paycheck basis, like most of the poor), what voting travesty do you contemplate them forcing on you? And how would they manage it?
- jetsetter883, on 01/27/2008, -5/+3figured you'd get dugg down for that. ridiculous.
- coyoteblue, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4Just in case the terrorists start flocking to our country from south of the border to throw off one of our elections. That's reasonable.
- birdly, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3I'm a lot more worried about the votes being counted correctly.
- clintontj72, on 01/27/2008, -1/+35State ID?
- coyoteblue, on 01/27/2008, -0/+47c'mon, Michigan....
- jjb123, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4I hear ya.
- DifferentAngle, on 01/27/2008, -6/+2Michigan's economy is tanking right now so they can't really risk going against the grain.
California on the other hand...- DifferentAngle, on 01/27/2008, -2/+3Let me elaborate. The secretary of state is concerned that the federal government will prevent canadian tourism in michigan by locking down the border. The michigan government doesn't want to lose the tourism money.
It's not so much that they support RealID - they're more just afraid of the feds.
- DifferentAngle, on 01/27/2008, -2/+3Let me elaborate. The secretary of state is concerned that the federal government will prevent canadian tourism in michigan by locking down the border. The michigan government doesn't want to lose the tourism money.
- KingCotton, on 01/28/2008, -1/+1Michiganders are too apathetic to do *****, you know that.
- Enjia, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2unfourtunatly we have a canadian model running things, look it up.
- varun1s, on 01/27/2008, -2/+40Driver's license, passport, social security number, real id............the list of things that one must keep up with never ends
- Picaroon, on 01/27/2008, -11/+3Actually, it apparently ends 6 words into your sentence...
- rarson, on 01/27/2008, -0/+7...until they come up with a new idea.
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -0/+5It will only end with the chip in your kids.
- centran, on 01/27/2008, -4/+6I thought the RealID replaces your Driver's license and too an extent your social security card. You would still need a passport for travel outside of north america.
But, I thought the RealID was consolidating the amount of "things" you "need" to have. If it doesn't then this is just stupid.- LordBoreal51, on 01/27/2008, -7/+6You are correct, Real ID is just standardized Driver's licenses among all of the states. The licenses are still issued by the states, but they must comply with the Federal standards.
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -3/+2Look into it. Your a fool if you think thats all it is.
Even with your assumption the Federal government is going where it has no right to go.- LordBoreal51, on 01/28/2008, -1/+2I'm sorry if you think I'm being a fool, but I was objectively stating what the Real ID legislation meant for driver's licenses. I'm completely aware of the implications of it like limitation of travel and denial of entrance into federal buildings, but with respect to number of identifying documents to carry, it is just that.
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -3/+2Look into it. Your a fool if you think thats all it is.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -2/+12Oh, it would definitely consolidate the number of things needed. You'd only need to lose one thing to be casually impersonated. You'd only need to lose one thing to be arrested and jailed as an apparent illegal. You'd only need one thing for anyone with access to the federal databases to see that you had a conviction for peeing on a bush and are a registered sexual offender. You'd only need one thing to connect your tax records to your bank records to your real estate records to your charity gifts.
Yes sir, just one thing. - Achilles2, on 01/28/2008, -0/+0You still need a Passport to travel outside of The United States. Mexico is still very much a part of North America.
- LordBoreal51, on 01/27/2008, -7/+6You are correct, Real ID is just standardized Driver's licenses among all of the states. The licenses are still issued by the states, but they must comply with the Federal standards.
- Picaroon, on 01/27/2008, -11/+3Actually, it apparently ends 6 words into your sentence...
- Yuglooc, on 01/27/2008, -42/+16I don't see the problem in the real id... Can someone explain to me what's so bad about it?
- TruthElixirX, on 01/27/2008, -16/+36Step 1) Get off of Digg.
Step 2) Read a history book.- noahhoward, on 01/27/2008, -11/+3Okay I read, Real Id wasn't mentioned. There were a bunch of really similar things that apparently have never been abused, though. Unless you count the Great Visa Massacre where the government used centralised credit card databases to ill the poor because they hate them... oh wait, that never happened it was just some nut-job fantasy.
- clintontj72, on 01/27/2008, -1/+23Read this to get a little info:
http://www.counterpunch.org/cox10032006.html - petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -29/+4It prevents illegals from driving, making it harder for them to work in landscaping, construction, etc. Immigrant labor has massive anti-inflationary effects on our economy. Preventing immigrants from working == inflation.
- amadeusdemarzi, on 01/27/2008, -3/+21You're ***** retarded if you buy that *****.
- petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -10/+2Link?
- mOdQuArK, on 01/27/2008, -2/+10@petrodollar: Immigrant labor has massive anti-inflationary effects on our economy
Codewords for: Illegal immigrants keep the wages of U.S. citizens low.- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -5/+4Americans can't afford to work those low paying jobs anyways.
- supermanred, on 01/27/2008, -1/+8If there were no illegals working them, they would have to pay minimum wage or above.
- petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -5/+3"they would have to pay minimum wage or above."
I'm sure that wouldn't lead to drastice price increases for those of us who already make a living wage!!! - fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -4/+4Not only can't afford, won't. I can't get a "citizen" babysitter, house cleaner or lawn maintainance person for anything affordable unless I am willing to pay far, far more than the task is worth. Furthermore, I enjoy fruit and vegetables; I am not willing to pay Joe Sixpack $18/hour to pick them -- especially considering the first thing he'll probably do is form a union, go on strike, and insist on $22.50/hour, plus benefits, for the same job.
- petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -7/+1Any American who has lost his job to an unskilled, uneducated, non-english speaking illegal immigrant is a real loser.
- NinjaJoey, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3Or is just someone who got undercut by someone agreeing to work for less than min. wage.
- petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -5/+2They also keep costs equally low and the keep property values high. How would you like it if building and maintenace costs were 75% higher but real estate values were 15% lower, genius?
- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 01/27/2008, -6/+5Cry more over illegal immigrants. They are the cheap labor that is fueling the economy.
- Jlaugh, on 01/27/2008, -5/+4Americans can't afford to work those low paying jobs anyways.
- CatalystGhost, on 01/27/2008, -2/+7"It prevents illegals from driving, making it harder for them to work in landscaping, construction, etc. " That's.... wow. Just. Wow. Seriously. They're already here illegally. Do you really think not having a license is going to stop them from driving?
- petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -5/+3Actually, yeah. Immigration violations are CIVIL violations. Traffic violations are CRIMINAL. Cops won't throw your ass in prison for violating your not having a valid visa, but they will jail and fine your ass if you drive without a license.
Understand the difference?
- petrodollar, on 01/27/2008, -5/+3Actually, yeah. Immigration violations are CIVIL violations. Traffic violations are CRIMINAL. Cops won't throw your ass in prison for violating your not having a valid visa, but they will jail and fine your ass if you drive without a license.
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -2/+4Petrodollar,Go home where you belong. There's a donkey leaving tonight.
- petrodollar, on 01/28/2008, -2/+1Hurts, doesn't it?
- amadeusdemarzi, on 01/27/2008, -3/+21You're ***** retarded if you buy that *****.
- Rikkochet, on 01/27/2008, -6/+12I'm sort of wondering the same..
FTA:
"Without REALID you will not be able to:
* Drive your car
* Board a plane, train, or bus
* Enter any federal building
* Open a bank account
* Hold a job "
You need a state driver's license to operate a vehicle.
You typically present some form of ID when purchasing a ticket for a plane.
Do you need to have ID available when entering a federal building?
You need a SSN/SIN for opening a bank account and working.
Is everyone's problem just that all these redundant government systems of data storage are being merged?- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -0/+27Look; what you're doing is citing recent changes in society (for the worse) as if they were "natural" things.
I'm 50. I have had driver's licenses that didn't have anything of interest other than my name on them. Not even a number. My driver's license was a certificate that said I passed a driver's test. I have boarded literally hundreds of planes with no more than a ticket or a boarding pass, bought with cash, nothing on them but a seat number and no ID required to buy said ticket/pass. I have entered many federal - and state - buildings without any ID being requested of me. I have opened bank accounts with the only specific, verifiable information being passed consisting of an account number being passed to me. Yes, I gave them an address, but it was just an anonymous PO box, and the name was a DBA business. No SSN, etc. I have held MANY jobs where no ID was asked or offered. I'm talking everything from mowing lawns as a kid to early jobs I held as an engineer.
These changes in society are BAD changes. They're not for your benefit, and citing them as if they were justification for consolidating all those nasty things in one tidy little envelope is disingenuous and frankly, not very bright.
If you want to drive a car, I'd like to know you know how. That seems like a legitimate requirement. A little certificate that says you do is sufficient until or unless you show otherwise, at which point, we can hassle you based on whatever driving error you made anyway.
Boarding a plane? I really don't give a carp who you are. If we're talking about security, I'd be a lot more concerned about what you were carrying, and that, of course, is where a legitimate security interest should be focused.
Entering a federal building - same thing. If it is security at issue, what you're carrying is the issue, not who you are.
Opening a bank account - you need an account number. You should probably have a password and/or a safety box key, too. The bank - an organization whose business is to take care of your money for you - should give you verifiable receipts for deposits you make, and give you your money and other savings on request. That's it.
Hold a job - you should be able to prove to the employer, preferably by example, that you can do the job they are proposing to give to someone; they in turn should be able to offer you recompense sufficient to make the exchange equitable. Shouldn't matter who you are. If security is an issue, then what you carry in and out of the building is the primary issue for most businesses. You can sign a contract that specifies penalties if you give up proprietary information for corporate employment, and the law has plenty of omph if you give up classified government information as well.
Doesn't matter who you are as long as you are behaving. If you're not behaving, then we can deal with that based on what you did, not who you are. Real security is the act of catching someone doing something wrong. Catching them AFTER they did something wrong isn't security, it is about punishment (and it used to be about prevention and rehabilitation, but these days it is more about assigning the miscreant to a permanent lowest-possible-citizen class, which of course shoots the prevention goal right in the assneck.)
So the difference is, we don't want to take the errors our society has already made and consolidate them, nor do we want to create a situation that has the potential for more kinds of citizen abuse.
It isn't just about what you've experienced in your tender few years. It is about liberty, and that is a big picture you can only get by studying history. Being passionate about a subject without knowing how things used to be, and why, and what the constitution and the founders had to say about it is pretty much guaranteed to shorten your perceptions to such a degree that you cannot speak intelligently about the subject.
- fyngyrz, on 01/27/2008, -0/+27Look; what you're doing is citing recent changes in society (for the worse) as if they were "natural" things.
- Pake, on 01/27/2008, -11/+7There's nothing wrong with it and most people whining obviously don't see the benefit of replacing multiple identifications card with one card. All the information on the Real ID card is already contained in government databases and on our various cards we are practically required to carry (Social Security and Driver's License), so it's just a way to cut the fat and put it on one card with a few more restrictions that would make it harder on illegal immigrants.
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6Your the one who needs to get informed.
- Useight, on 01/27/2008, -1/+3Yeah, if you carry your social security card around in your wallet, you're a moron.
- mattsadd, on 01/28/2008, -1/+3my god you're as gullible as a pre-soviet era Russian. what you call 'whining' is defense of American Constitutional principles with which you need to get on board with, fast.
- inn0, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2***** man, why even have a card! You're right - cards are so inconvenient - a card for social security, a card for driving, a card for paying for stuff a card for the gym! The most convenient thing, I think, is if the government just injects a unique RFID chip into your neck at birth, and then you won't have to worry about that unsightly wallet bulge. sigh......
- inn0, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4Aside from the myriad privacy concerns that this creates (the government will be able to track you pretty damn well with the centralized databases and all), it creates undue burden on a lot of people, myself included. For example, you need a copy of your birth certificate to get a Real ID. I am a US citizen, but also an immigrant, and I definitely don't have a birth certificate and possibly a host of other paperwork that may be required. If this ever gets implemented a lot of people are going to have a tough time say, driving a car or getting on a plane without a full cavity search. Oh, and the states are also getting stuck with the bill for actually implementing this tidy piece of Orwellian fantasy.
- TruthElixirX, on 01/27/2008, -16/+36Step 1) Get off of Digg.
- brainboy77, on 01/27/2008, -2/+60is there a list of those 17 states?
- UtahApocalyse, on 01/27/2008, -14/+3That's what I was thinking. Last I knew there were 5. I am against RealID but am buriying this as inaccurate.
- Toasterstrudull, on 01/27/2008, -0/+31Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Maine
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
North Dakota
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Utah
Washington- tidu, on 01/27/2008, -0/+5This is the official list. Pennsylvania passed a resolution rejecting Real ID as well, I guess it just isn't as official as these states.
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Publi ...
- tidu, on 01/27/2008, -0/+5This is the official list. Pennsylvania passed a resolution rejecting Real ID as well, I guess it just isn't as official as these states.
- Toasterstrudull, on 01/27/2008, -0/+31Arizona
- ridium, on 01/27/2008, -0/+11Read the site. Link to the list on the front page.
http://no2realid.org/id18.html- Jereso, on 01/28/2008, -2/+1YES! Missouri says no! We finally do something right!
- fotbr, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Would be nice if they added a link to the legislation rather than just saying "Legislation opposing RealID has been passed"
- Jereso, on 01/28/2008, -2/+1YES! Missouri says no! We finally do something right!
- zKman, on 01/27/2008, -0/+7Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#Controver ...
- yourmightyruler, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6Wahoo! Colorado opposes!
- random19, on 01/27/2008, -0/+14Yeah doesn't really sound like those states "killed" it...
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_id#State_adoptio ...
"Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington have joined Maine and Utah in passing legislation opposing Real ID. However it should be noted that most of these actions are non-binding resolutions rather than acts of law, leaving the decision about compliance to the governors themselves.
"Similar resolutions are pending in Alaska, Arizona, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, D.C., West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming."
For once I'm proud to be in SC.- MaddieCakes, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4Wooooo Nebraska!
- katrayun, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4Finally! A reason to be proud of my state that doesn't involve football.
- d03boy, on 01/27/2008, -1/+1Go Huskers!
- MaddieCakes, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4Wooooo Nebraska!
- dawn4598, on 01/27/2008, -1/+13Iowa? Vote Ron Paul for 2008 and stop the Real ID now!
- Gamer2k4, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2Yep. Judging by the date next to it though, this "news" is 3 months old.
- MyDiggIsBig, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4California you fail. damn you
- UtahApocalyse, on 01/27/2008, -14/+3That's what I was thinking. Last I knew there were 5. I am against RealID but am buriying this as inaccurate.
- PaulLewis, on 01/27/2008, -1/+29I highly doubt it'll happen, but lets get this shiz out of Florida.
- Rustymetal, on 01/27/2008, -1/+2for real, reppin the 239 i see aswell.
- PaulLewis, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2Yep. I'm a student at the local university, FGCU.
- Rustymetal, on 01/27/2008, -1/+1I stick to the community colleges, Edison HOLLA! lol
- PaulLewis, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2Yep. I'm a student at the local university, FGCU.
- ccanni1028, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2Crist ran on a platform supporting RealID. No way we're getting on the opposition list.
- Rustymetal, on 01/27/2008, -1/+2for real, reppin the 239 i see aswell.
- Drakej, on 01/27/2008, -1/+41@Yuglooc It means that absolutely all of your information is going to be stored in one spot. Your SS#, Drivers License, Library Card, bank card everything will be stored on one little card that the government maintains and runs. Keep in mind if you do not enroll with this card you cannot fly, or take a train. Why does the government need to know absolutely every detail about your personal life?
- Factionrider, on 01/27/2008, -6/+3I'm not down with the real ID but I'm also not too worried about it as far as travel goes. I read somewhere that you will still be able to fly with a passport.
- FactaNonVerba7, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2For now...
- centran, on 01/27/2008, -2/+8You ever try to fly without an ID? Almost impossible. You need to find the right airline and know the procedures and hope the check in person is cool.
- parallax7d, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2ID is fine, it just identifies you. Real ID = NOT fine. It is the tip of an intel database that will be used and abused for the suppression of the constitution and civil rights.
Don't think the government is that irresponsible and incompetent?- Jlaugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Not only is the government irresponsible but worse their very competent about it.
- parallax7d, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2ID is fine, it just identifies you. Real ID = NOT fine. It is the tip of an intel database that will be used and abused for the suppression of the constitution and civil rights.
- Rambeezle, on 01/27/2008, -9/+0because you are a terrorist
- Factionrider, on 01/27/2008, -6/+3I'm not down with the real ID but I'm also not too worried about it as far as travel goes. I read somewhere that you will still be able to fly with a passport.
- MasterThief117, on 01/27/2008, -1/+53We The People Will Not be Chipped.
- rizzo2008, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4This is what will follow the Real-ID if it is implemented
- visculent, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3The RFID is coming. Become aware people. Not too much time left.
This is all taking away from your life..your potential..your happiness. - Abram, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4If we the people are chipped then we are bricked.
- yourmartdotnet, on 01/27/2008, -4/+20I try to avoid federal bldgs anyway so who really gives a *****! Sorry IRS I couldn't pay my income tax, because my state doesn't participate in real ID so I was unable to pick up my 1040, I don't have a passport so I couldn't enter the post office to buy stamps XD
- ManoWar, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6See how quick your labeled a domestic terrorist after not paying your income tax. You know the only reason you wouldn't pay your tax is because you hate America.
- etherreal, on 01/27/2008, -0/+6When in reality it is because you hate American Gov't, which fortunately are two different things.
- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1or because it is unconstitutional...repeal the 16th amendment...not the bill of rights, thanks!
- Xenufield, on 01/28/2008, -2/+0Yeah you have fun telling them that and getting hauled off to prison.
- jack420, on 01/28/2008, -1/+3not if its a federal prison cause you need a real id to go into a federal bldg
- vikingscool, on 06/06/2008, -0/+1I glad I don't work too much! I don't have to pay taxes! I won't
go to the federal building. Too bad Big Government!
- ManoWar, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6See how quick your labeled a domestic terrorist after not paying your income tax. You know the only reason you wouldn't pay your tax is because you hate America.
- kushed, on 01/27/2008, -6/+257"Real ID"? So what the ***** is my driver license, a fake ID?
- Pake, on 01/27/2008, -12/+3It's a replacement for the driver's license and various other identifiers.
- CaviMike, on 01/27/2008, -1/+24It's called 'Real ID' to fool suckers. It has a rfid chip in it and it's a federal ID, not a state ID.
- drizzlelicious, on 01/27/2008, -1/+7Then what the devil is my passport?
- d03boy, on 01/27/2008, -0/+22Your drivers license should never have any more information on it than is directly needed to properly identify you (picture--"something you are", your address--"something you know"", your id--"something you have"). It gives you the right to drive, no more, no less. Any more information is a breech of privacy and security.
- davidjsmitty, on 01/27/2008, -0/+11THANK YOU. That's exactly why they named it the "real" ID. So that people would think their other IDs are not "real".
- RockinRoel, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2What if you don't drive? I don't understand how a driver's license can replace any other ID if you don't drive.
- Pureeviljester, on 01/27/2008, -6/+1your license is optional. if you don't wanna drive then you don't need to get a license.
- RockinRoel, on 01/27/2008, -2/+3Yes, but how will you be identified then? There must be some way to check you identity, otherwise you could just say:
Hi, I'm Jack Nicholson.
(I'm Belgian, I don't know)- njcarlos, on 01/28/2008, -1/+1I've always thought this too, but I'm sure at least 2 utility bills + photo ID of another sort w/ matching address would suffice.
- Pureeviljester, on 01/31/2008, -0/+1you are only forced to verify yourself with a name, address and... um something else. age i think. but you don't need an ID and you shouldn't need an ID for the sake of being ID'd
- bdsakx, on 01/28/2008, -0/+0Most states you can get a state identification card that looks just like a driver's license, except it doesn't say driver's license. It has the same precedence and effectiveness as a driver's license -- without the authority to drive a vehicle of course. It's accepted as a legal ID and alternative to a driver's license.
edit: whoops supposed to be in reply to njcarlos
- RockinRoel, on 01/27/2008, -2/+3Yes, but how will you be identified then? There must be some way to check you identity, otherwise you could just say:
- Perk, on 01/28/2008, -0/+8Does it say "McLovin"?
- jack420, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4the driver license i use to buy booze is a "fake ID"
- PhilMoskowitz, on 01/27/2008, -3/+40I thought you people usually just roll over and let the government scratch your belly? Whats all this then?
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -0/+11America is waking up and smelling the fascism.
- parallax7d, on 01/28/2008, -3/+1Not really, it's just that a lot of Christians believe this to be the start of "the mark of the beast". If the US was more atheist, there would not be nearly the opposition to this act as we are mostly just sheep, religion or no religion.
- soulkitchen, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2IF the US were more atheist there wouldn't be neocons to push this plan
- Jlaugh, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3There'd still be neo-cons they'd just find another group of sheep to elect them. You'll notice the actions of the neo-cons are not christian nor conservative.
- NinjaJoey, on 01/28/2008, -0/+4Exactly, soulkitchen. I'm atheist and against RealID
- soulkitchen, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2IF the US were more atheist there wouldn't be neocons to push this plan
- Xenufield, on 01/28/2008, -0/+3America has been smelling it since the early 1900s when the 'progressives' came along with all sorts of fun welfare and equality programs that've cost trillions and will cost us tens of trillions in the future (see: Menu of Pain).
- parallax7d, on 01/28/2008, -3/+1Not really, it's just that a lot of Christians believe this to be the start of "the mark of the beast". If the US was more atheist, there would not be nearly the opposition to this act as we are mostly just sheep, religion or no religion.
- j0keR, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1The states that are rejecting it are doing so because the feds aren't giving the states money to implement the system. It has nothing to do with liberty.
- Erich100, on 01/27/2008, -0/+11America is waking up and smelling the fascism.
- ItsMyWii, on 01/27/2008, -0/+14I, as a die hard Nutmegger, will NOT stand for this in Connecticut!
- choppergirl, on 01/27/2008, -1/+41kill it so hard it never comes back years later and sneaks through tacked onto some other bills, which is how those sneaky son of a bitches do it when they don't get their way at first. this is just testing the waters for resistance. a lot of those fat assholes in washington need to be strung up, they are so out of touch with the american people.
- carpespasm, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6to do that there would be a need for an amendment that prevents the government from collecting anything that would infringe one's privacy without a warrant or permission from the citizen themself. That would be an awesome and beautiful thing to see, but I doubt it will come to pass any time soon....
- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2like the forth amendment?
- CatalystGhost, on 01/27/2008, -0/+12Seriously, why is it legal to tack other side bills onto bills? That's *****, completely. They should vote on each bill individually, all the time.
- nazadus, on 01/27/2008, -1/+1Time.
It's intent was to reduce time, at the cost we see today. - duality, on 01/28/2008, -0/+1Pet projects are a particularly egregious abuse of the legislative system because of this, and I suspect that this is one of the primary reasons that such policies are legal. Also, federal politicians tend to disagree with each other much more strongly than state politicians.
A bad bill can often be pushed into law by attaching riders to it that are politically unwise to vote against, or by attaching it as a rider to a good bill (with REAL ID, it was attached to a very compelling war budget bill). In some cases, this results in a perfectly good bill being killed.
Digg featured a perfect example of this a while back: a strong health care bill that George W. Bush vetoed. Needless to say, they ripped him a new one for it. What people on Digg didn't know was that that particular bill was stuffed with some thoroughly disgusting riders. I remember actually looking at the bill shortly after it was vetoed, and thinking to myself: "Gee, I'm really glad this monstrosity didn't go through."
Fortunately, some states, such as my own, already have laws on the books that require all riders attached to a bill to be relevant to the bill itself. It's one of the things we have used to keep ourselves out of trouble in the 100 years, 2 months, and 11 days since we became a state, and it's probably part of what has made us one of these 17 states on record as opposing REAL ID.
Heh. Good luck trying to kill this kind of behavior at the federal level, though.
- nazadus, on 01/27/2008, -1/+1Time.
- cmackattack, on 01/28/2008, -0/+2Ummm, people...that's how it got through congress to begin with, ya know?
Original; "STALED"; http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109 ...
Rider bill; "passed"; http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109 ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_(legislation)
- carpespasm, on 01/27/2008, -1/+6to do that there would be a need for an amendment that prevents the government from collecting anything that would infringe one's privacy without a warrant or permission from the citizen themself. That would be an awesome and beautiful thing to see, but I doubt it will come to pass any time soon....
- Brownye, on 01/27/2008, -1/+53How could any one possibly support Real ID?
- bbardlbradd, on 01/27/2008, -23/+6I don't support it, but I'm not against it either... I don't know why people fear this so much. I don't want to have to pay the taxes for it, that's all I'm really concerned about.
Also, could they be used as Passports? <
- bbardlbradd, on 01/27/2008, -23/+6I don't support it, but I'm not against it either... I don't know why people fear this so much. I don't want to have to pay the taxes for it, that's all I'm really concerned about.
