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Obama: "Faith got hijacked."

crooksandliars.com — Obama said Saturday that the religious right had “hijacked” faith and divided the country by exploiting issues like abortion, same-sex marriage and school prayer.—“But somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together,” Mr. Obama said. “Faith started being used to drive us apart. Faith got hijacked.”

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  • lephermessiah, on 10/11/2007, -35/+216He is correct, I must say.

    The religious right is what permanently drove me away from Christianity.
    • Alegoo92, on 10/11/2007, -9/+16He said what everybody knows.
      • DrDragun, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11I do not understand why Christians are tolerant of this. You must understand what a slippery slope it is to take the morals of 1 particular religeon into consideration when law making. Today we ban gay marriage because it is immoral? What next? The bible says idling is immoral as well. Should we arrest everyone who is not up by 10 am on Saturday? Technically, not believing in Jesus is immoral. Shall it be illegal to reject Jesus as our savior?

        It is fine to let religeon steer your morals, but if you want to make a law then you need to be able to back it up with secular reasoning. I can't believe there are a small minority of places in the country where people are still elected on a "anti-seperation-of-church-and-state" platform.
        • MikeTheC, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0"religeon"? How about learning to spell, buddy?
          There's an awful lot of people claiming to be religious (there's the proper spelling, btw) doing lots of harm (some intentional, some not intentional) in the name of either religion in general or God specifically, but it's no different, fundamentally, from normal-behaving fans of Star Trek (who can technically be classified as "trekkies") and obnoxious, immature oddballs (also classifiable as "trekkies") who give the rest a bad name.
          So please, do some research before posting. (Oh yeah, and learn how to spell, too.)
    • funkmachine, on 10/11/2007, -48/+78You mean, the fact that Christianity is ***** didn't drive you away?
      • MacintoshSauce, on 10/11/2007, -31/+6You are the typical athiest that the Devil loves to have in his company.
        • converge, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Um, who?
        • MadOtaku, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13I dugg you up because I hope you're joking. If not... just wow. Hard to believe people would seriously talk about the devil as if it were real.
        • blu64, on 10/11/2007, -3/+13If you and your kind are the only ones in heaven, I think I'll just pass on the whole 'judgment' thing and go straight to hell. thanks anyway
          • ScottMaximus1, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9Hell looks like a pretty sweet place, all the cool musicians are going to be there.
        • CompIsMyRx, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4The thing about Hell is that it only exists in the Christian faith to force people to believe. People believe what they want to believe, or what they fear to believe.
          {Crappy attempt at the wizard's first rule from the Sword of Truth}
        • sunshinemonster, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1ComplsMyRx, I never understood the argument of people are only Christians because they're afraid of going to Hell. The whole point of Christianity is to be with Jesus, in heaven, a person who is really adherent to the Christianity, knows that.
      • zenerdiode, on 10/11/2007, -4/+5correction: replace Christianity with "any religion"

        this coming from a Buddhist who was a gerbil in his previous life cause he was sinful in the previous, previous life (see, equally *****)
        • norman619, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Oh you are priceless. You actually believe the devil? This world is massive and full of many different peopel which very different belifes. Some are OLDER than Christianity. I find it insane that anyone can choose one based on nothing more than a book and the words of some guy in a robe and then decide everyone in the world but those who happen to believe as you do are going to burn in hell for eternity. If you can't see the arrogance and insanity in that view then my friend you are beyond hope.
        • norman619, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2You are priceless. It amazes me how any sane person can choose any one of the many world religions based on nothing more than a book and the words of some guy in robes and then decide all those who choose not to follow your religion are destined for eternal tourment. This to me is just as crazy as the stuff the radical Islamists believe. If you can't see the extreme arrogance and insanity of this view then you my friend are beyond hope.
        • sneakerelph, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1good thing you said that twice, but a little different the second time.

          I didn't catch it the first.
          • norman619, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1Man this is odd. Sometimes my posts don't even appear so I wind up double posting. Is it God? :-)
    • bovox, on 10/11/2007, -13/+60Even if you do not believe in the supernatural mysticism of Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that Christ's teachings are still good ideas, and a good template on how one could live his life.
      • funkmachine, on 10/11/2007, -11/+17They are common sense ideas. Religion was not needed for them to come about.
      • geometry, on 10/11/2007, -6/+25What are Christs "true" teachings? Go to 10 different churches and you'll get 10 different answers. Some people teach that Christ believed gays should be killed and will go to hell, while others don't believe so. The problem is that spirituality has been hijacked by structured religion and then by politics. Most people who "teach" religion have some kind of agenda to push. Sometimes they truly believe that that their agenda is for the better of society while other times they know what they are doing is wrong. Jesus was not a Christian by todays standards, and I believe that if the whole life after death is true Jesus would be more displeased by people who call themselves Christians than people who have no religious belief but lead a moral life.
        • norman619, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11Christianity has been cleaned up or as I like to say saned up for modern times. If you read the original rules of the religion oh man they are just as bad as the teachings of radical Islam and original Jewish teachings.
          • thepuma77, on 10/11/2007, -8/+3Back up what you say with proof because sound ignorant of what your are trying to prove
        • TheFinaleofSeem, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0If you forget all the dogma and crapola and just read the New Testament and read what Christ himself preached, you'll get a good idea. So many churches have perverted some very wise words. Christ was all about loving thy neighbor, even if you don't agree with him/her. Hell, the parable of The Good Samaritan should apply to our times because the Jews absolutely hated the Samaritans, so maybe the fundies should try that just a little.
      • dillibob, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10christs true teachings were basically be a good man. and everyone knows what this is, treat everyone with respect, do not steal, cheat or lie, and help one another. all this ***** about killing homosexuals and non christians is just that, *****.
      • GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10Yes Christ picked a good source in the Greeks to copy his morals from. Then again Christianity is like open source religion. Borrow a bit from here and a bit from there.
        • ScottMaximus1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Shhhhhhhh

          Open Source doesn't steal from ANYONE. OpenOffice doesn't totally look like MS Office circa 1999
        • catalysis, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5The greeks stole it from the egyptians. Get your facts straight
        • ThDecider, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Dont forget zoroastrianism too. christians stole a ***** ton from that religion. look it up
        • Oldschoolhack, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@ScottMaximus1

          At least Open Source didn't charge an arm and a leg to use their product either, like MS Office did years ago.
    • converge, on 10/11/2007, -23/+37The fact that there is not a single shred of evidence of a god, in any shape or form, drove me away from Christianity.
      • MacintoshSauce, on 10/11/2007, -23/+4You are so deluded. God exists and is everywhere - you just cannot comphrend His existence because you are a mere human being.
        • halavais, on 10/11/2007, -3/+17It's really difficult to know whether the above comment is sarcasm. That alone might tell you something about the reasonableness of religion.
        • zenerdiode, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Actually, as a Vogon, I can comprehend his existence just fine. It's his sense of humor that I just can't comprehend.
        • zephc, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2"You are so deluded. God exists and is everywhere - you just cannot comphrend His existence because you are a mere human being."

          Well, isn't that convenient! I'm so glad you have all the answers, so you can enlighten us all.
        • HeyArnold, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Holy ***** crap, so as a fellow "mere human being" you also cannot comprehend "gods" existence. So how then, can you defend it? Im pretty sure this firefly i captured last summer created the universe anyway.
        • oxdeltaxo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@ MacintoshSauce

          So if we're mere humans what makes you special?
        • thirdeyeopen, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2FOOLS!!! Macintoshsauce is OBVIOUSLY an angel sent from the future to warn us of our possible sins throughout the multiverse!!! It would be wise to listen or your soul could be sent back through the timeline when you die, instead of the ascendance of ....of....*****, lost it.
      • JonGalt, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6-religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
        -complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
        -religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
        -loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"

        Gee, I dont know...maybe hes a retard? and he's explioting the same thing for his own reasons...Having faith for almost 99.9% of this definition makes you a nutbag.
    • slartibartphast, on 10/11/2007, -14/+21That's a pretty dumb statement I hear quite often. Don't blame the abusers of a religion for abandoning it. You drove yourself away.
      • sibhod, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Don't blame the not-true Scotsman.
      • GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8You call it drove away. We call it reaching enlightenment. I posted to a friend earlier that while there is no proof god doesn't exist there is no proof that there isn't a pantheon of gods of size N where the universe is split into N disjoint domains with each god ruling 1 domain as they see fit. This for all N that is a member of the natural number set.

        The result of this is there are an infinite number of gods that cannot be disproved (I just defined countless gods) and as a result the chances of Christianity (or any religion) being correct are infinitesimal.
        • slartibartphast, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3You missed my point. You should not let the fact that a participant in X cause you to fault X. That's like saying you hate the NFL because the fans are idiots. Makes no logical sense. Kind of like your illogical reply, trying to apply science to religion.
          • GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2That wasn't science. It's logic and mathematics. Read it closer, it's a proof the number of possible god combinations is infinite. Rendering each possible combination as being worth less than my contempt.
          • slartibartphast, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2I didn't know logic and mathematics weren't science. Have fun with your enlightened numbers!
      • sunshinemonster, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I digg my hat to you, good sir.
    • Infowarmachine, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12christianity has some interesting lessons to teach, and for those who like to believe it power to them
      but if you do believe it, and follow christs teachings, THINK FOR YOU FREAKING SELF as to how to follow those teachings

      the way christianity is practiced in most of this country now is nothing short of a massive mind control cult
      people are told what to think and how to act by a handful of evil devil worshipers masquarading as christians..
      mob mentality, group think to the max, its sickening, and it is being used to ruin the country and the world
      and if there is a hell, those people are certainly damned to it
    • smoothmedia, on 10/11/2007, -4/+23"Religious Right" is my favorite oxymoron
      • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Ecclesiastes 10:2
        NASB: A wise man's heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man's heart directs him toward the left

        Yes, this verse is taken out of context and doesn't necessarily mean how I'm using it here, I just thought it was funny.
    • weeeezzll, on 10/11/2007, -2/+13Faith has always driven people apart. Faith only bring people together when they are in total agreement on their religious beliefs.

      Religion causes unresolvable conflict, because each side believes that their side has the infallible knowledge of god. Thus neither side is willing to compromise because compromise means admitting that their religion and thus their god is not perfect. And even one tiny crack in the "perfectness" of their god causes the basis for their entire religion to fall apart. And this of course leads to religious persecution and war.
    • kolobcreek, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1I don't suppose it ever crossed his mind that religion stayed the same and people changed? Like when did sodomy become a bad thing in the BIble? Its like chastity so out dated. That is why the Bible needs to go. It just isn't keeping up with the times. What we need are some preachers and priest that make us feel good about ourselves independent of the things we do.

      I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want to be religious be religious. Just don't change your religion to fit your life style like Sen Obama.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -1/+102 Timothy 4:3
      NASB: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, (NASB ©1995)
      • adeptusliberus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1even parts Bible itself speaks against what modern right wing fundamentalist christianity. I'm sure this is one passage that most fundies will conveniently ignore in their sermons.
    • maiku00, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8I totally disagree with Obama. Faith has been driving people apart since the beginning of time. Its not like this is some kind of new turn of events. "Its not ALL bad" is a pretty terrible excuse to value something that causes SO many problems.
      • TheFinaleofSeem, on 10/11/2007, -1/+0People cause so many problems. Varying faiths are just a convenient tool for people to be manipulated. I know a LOT of religious people that are not fervent, they are not hateful, and they are perfectly capable of friendships with people of other faiths and, shockingly enough, perfectly capable of having a calm, open discussion about their faith with those of other faiths. The loudmouths get noticed, but that doesn't mean that faith itself is a bad thing. Faith is a thing to be valued. Asshats who use faith as a tool for hate are the ones that cause problems.
    • TheG2, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3Holy crap, thats actually true, and its coming from Crooksandliars! Is the world ending today?

      But Obama brings up a good point but its most likely because our society no longer needs religion to hold it together and to control the masses. I'm not saying religion is bad, drawing people together for a common cause is usually a good thing, but when people take it to extremes, then you start to run into problems.

      Unfortunately, theres no way to solve that problem, and we're doomed to kill each other off over stupid ideals.
    • dasluvaluva, on 10/11/2007, -5/+3Right, because the mistakes of the few is a *great* reason to turn you back on Jesus. Way to go =/
      • oxdeltaxo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1It's not so much that people see the mistakes of a few individuals and turn away, many people just don't want to believe the same way Christians do. Perhaps Buddhism or Hinduism suits them better. Perhaps they just want to be an atheist. Not always is it those who represent the religion at fault, it depends more on the individual who decides how they want to believe, and what makes them feel good.
        • thirdeyeopen, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@dasluvaluva,
          It's never a good idea to turn your back on a zombie.
    • oxdeltaxo, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3I was driven away from Christianity because they just weren't friendly or flexible. It's why I'm a pagan today.
    • gthrank, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4Faith is not equal to religion. I am OK with faith. I hate religion. And the right wing zealots - well, they frustrate the goals of the evangelism they supposedly were instructed by Jesus to practice.
      • Azerael, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Faith is as worthless as organized religion.
    • davidrools, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3I totally understand where you're coming from. As a christ follower and political liberal, I'm as frustrated as you at the ignorance and hypocrisy of the religious right. That doesn't change the fact, though, that Jesus is an awesome teacher (and a revolutionary liberal who strongly opposed the religious institution of his time) and the bible really does have some keen insight into the meaning and purpose of life, when you read it in context and actually think about what it says (unlike just about the entire religious community). I won't ever tell anyone what to think or what to believe, but encourage anyone to take an honest look at life and not let Christians out you off of what could be a very solid and enlightening spiritual/philosophical way of life.

      (now go ahead and digg down for not being an atheist...though i totally understand where yall are coming from too)
    • dunamis99, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Sitting in a garage doesn't make you a car. Just attending church doesn't make you a Christian.
      There is a big difference between a true Christian that walks in love and is humble by God's love for us..and some religious right fool that mixes up scripture and his local denomination tradition. Quite honestly most of the 'religious' people you see on TV (whether it is Pat Robertson or Jesse Jackson)...are in bed with the media...going after the almighty dollar.

      However, if you focus on learning truth...At the end of the day Jesus is all about love, grace, truth, faith, forgiveness, justice, and mercy. God gives us freedom to choose and express ourselves.
      My friend, you don't have to pigeonholed into a stereotypical box. It isn't about being what others expect you to be...but what God made you to be.
  • Anarchrist, on 10/11/2007, -86/+19The religious left hijacked faith and exploited issues way before the religious right even got organized. If Obama wanted to "go out and do the Lord’s work" as he states in the article, he may want to abandon the communistic and racist positions of his church. In fact, no matter what his positions, he wouldn't be a politician exploiting his faith to get elected. As Michael Cloud said:

    "Jesus Christ fasted for 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness. At the end of the 40 days, Satan took him to the mountaintop and offered Jesus Christ dominion over the world... if Jesus would kneel down and worship him. Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus responded, 'My kingdom is not of this world.'

    "Jesus turned down political power.

    "Was Jesus wrong?"
    (http://thereddingbrothers.blogspot.com/2006/11/christian-libertarian-revolution.html )
    • Corrosionx, on 10/11/2007, -11/+2digg down
    • Myonosken, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3Racist?
    • redpixie, on 10/11/2007, -5/+7You obviously know nothing of the biblical role of Satan. Idiot.
    • irgeorge, on 10/11/2007, -5/+1anarchrist... dude, quoting the bible out of context in some pseudo-intellectual manner doesn't impress anyone. it's still the bible.
    • bobangitanov2, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10ehm... jesus christ according to the bible, was a communist. the gospels say he told the rich to give away all their money and belongings to the poor, he lived off of others' charity and hospitality the last few years of his life. He didn't just turn down political power, he refused ownership and money. don't blame people for not acting like jesus. first of all he might be entirely fictional, and 2nd, who gives a ***** if people are not like jesus? are you gonna take them to court? cause the court cared about imitating jesus, everyone would be put to jail.
    • PhillipL, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6What are you calling the religious left? Dr. King? I guess if you think that using faith to justify the need for civil rights is a form of hijacking faith but I for one completely disagree with that opinion. You fail to point out where Obama got it wrong in his statements. Its just true that the right has been using faith to spearhead wedge issues because they know it will turn out a larger republican vote. If you turn overtly political issues into a question of Abrahamic principles you're hijacking the whole idea of religion. This is principally what's wrong with much of the middle east.
  • nolesshabitual, on 10/11/2007, -17/+142the source material: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/us/politics/24obama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

    but obama has a point, Christianity claims to be a religion of love, forgiveness, and acceptance, meanwhile the radical right wing Christians spew hate for anybody different from them, refuse to accept homosexual love, and won't forgive anybody (except presidents who lie, but only about weapons, not blow jobs)
    • Mewchu11, on 10/11/2007, -4/+20You know I never expected to see the words "Obama", "love", "spew", "homosexual", "presidents", and "blow jobs" incorporated into the same sentence.
    • legatus, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10I do believe the book Christians follow explicitly condemns homosexuals. is this not correct? Personally I think all those with invisible friends are a bit weak in the cranium.
      • masamunecyrus, on 10/11/2007, -2/+26The Bible also explicitly tells Christians not to judge other people, ever. It goes along with the whole story about the Pharisees who followed God's teachings perfectly and strictly and thought themselves morally surperior to others because of it, and for this very reason they were 'further from God' than even the most horrible people.

        I think today's Christians are very much like the Pharisees of old.
      • SonicRush, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2It does not condemn homosexuals, just acts of homosexuality. Having the temptation/orientation is not a sin.
        • Abaddon1125, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3That's like saying "it doesn't condemn white people, it just condemns the acts white people." You can't condemn a creature for acting within his nature unless he intends to do harm to others. Gay people do no harm to others. What they do in the privacy of their bedrooms is their business and no one else's.
    • Myonosken, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13Not explicitly. If you search the old testament, you find some mention, but given the New Testament is the "new covenant" the old testament does not take precedence over Jesus words which were, hey, "Love thy neighbour"!
      • lajaw, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3Yea, it said "love thy neighbor", didn't say anything about cornholeing him.
      • macman2k, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Jesus still condemns immoral, sexual BEHAVIOR, not people. If a man lusts after a woman other than is wife, he commits a sin in the same way that a man lusting after another man commits a sin. Just because you are tempted doesn't make a particular BEHAVIOR acceptable. Christians should love homosexuals like all other people who sin, but still call it sin, because their God calls it sin. If you have issues with calling homosexual behavior sin, then take it up with their God, not with them.
    • masamunecyrus, on 10/11/2007, -5/+8It's important to think not only of the evils religion has brought but also the good that it has brought, too. Wars have been started in the name of religion, people have been maimed due to religion, and people have even been executed in the name of religion. But, conversely, many of the kindest deeds in the world have been in the name of religion. Churches all across America helped donate food and supplies to Katrina victims and helped them rebuild. The many saints that are present in the Christian have been recorded as doing many selfless acts simply to help another person. and so, so many missionaries go to impoverished countries not only to preach, but also to bring supplies and medical aid, as well as help build houses for those who can't afford to do so.

      Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." This is true. Christianity IS a religion of love, forgiveness, and acceptance. Nonetheless, many Christians are despicable people.
      • GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7In your criticism of Christianity, you missed AIDs in Africa, the inquisition, puritanism and burning people at the stake for heresy. Not to mention priestly paedophilia.
        • ScottMaximus1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7AIDS, not AIDs

          Also, don't forget the French Civil War, The Pogroming of the Jews throughout the Middle Ages, and the Crusades
        • Abaddon1125, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3And, hey, while we're talking about missionary work, often this is done with the express intent of converting those helped to Christianity, which is not exactly the most noble of reasons.
    • MacintoshSauce, on 10/11/2007, -8/+7Christianity does not have to accept "homosexual love" (as you call it). Homosexuality is a sin - read the Bible. Since the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, this means that you don't accept the sin of a sinner. There is a saying... Love the sinner, hate the sin. That is how I feel about homosexuality.

      Your comments are quite offensive IMO. Not all Christian ministers receive BJs, etc. Like any profession, there are going to be bad people everywhere. Those ministers of God that do sick things to children WILL be punished when they die - their judgement will come. Don't worry about that. Hopefully, man catches and punishes these sick individuals too before they die.
      • kolobcreek, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Hey rye.. I would like to go a step further and say that Obama is the one trying to Hijack Christianity. Christianity isn't changing its people that are changing. And they expect Religion to change with them. What makes Sen. Obama think that abortion (preventing or ending life take your pick) is not a religious issue. What makes him think that a particular type of social union (aka marriage) is not a religious issue. What makes him think that prayer is not a religious issue.

        These things have been around for thousands of years. And he is saying that the religious right is hijacking Christianity. What he is really seeing is people standing up for what they believe in. And he can expect to see more of it.
      • GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8So will the Homosexuals then. There your argument falls down. You want to mitigate the sins of those you like on the basis they will be judged by god, yet you want to personally judge those you dislike.

        Also god does not give you the right to judge sin.
      • Quantumsparrow, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2MacintoshSauce:
        nolesshabitual was referring to the Clinton scandal, not the ministers, in which all hell was brought down on Clinton's head for getting a blowjob, whereas Bush recieved NO perjury charges for his attack on Iraq with its non-existant weapons. Unecessary war... or blowjob. Which one should actually recieve punishment?

        In any case... thought I'd clear that up. ;)
        • jarsfan2k8, on 08/13/2008, -2/+3You dumb ass....Clinton got impeached for committing perjury. Not getting head.
          • Quantumsparrow, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Which came from him attempting to get out of admitting to getting a blowjob, asshat--which is totally the American public's business and worthy of perjury charges. ;)

            FAIL
            Kthx.
  • ChLb, on 10/11/2007, -28/+16Christ claimed that he came bearing a sword, not to bring peace, but division.
    That makes it pretty clear that we wasn't planing to "bring people together", but that the ideals he preached would naturally divide and separate people and turn family members or neighbors against one another.
    • theshrew4, on 10/11/2007, -5/+1True, but I believe that as to division, Christ was speaking more from experience than out of prediction —
      "And when his family heard [of his preachings], they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind." (Mark 3:21)
      • ImOnlySleeping, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1He wasn't purposefully dividing people, resistance to conversion just created that. Ultimately, one would think that he would aim to bring everyone together under christianity. If not not that's kind of a dickish thing to do.
    • bovox, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4Chapter and verse please. I'd like to know where you are misinterpreting the scripture. Or are you just pulling this stuff out of your a**?
      • converge, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5I think he is pulling stuff out of his ass. But then again, where do you think the Bible came from?
        • ChLb, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Matthew 10: 34, Christ said: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e] 37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31
      • MadOtaku, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3I don't know what verse it is, but it is real; I had read it before and looked it up. He actually quoted the nicer bit (if I remember correctly); a verse near it says that you won't get into heaven without hating your parents, children, and even yourself.
        • ChLb, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Matthew 10: 34, Christ said: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e] 37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31
      • ChLb, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3 Matthew 10: 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
        " 'a man against his father,
        a daughter against her mother,
        a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
        36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

        37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
        http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31
    • scooby0110, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Sorry ChLb, you have not read the Bible. Jesus did not claim any of what you just stated. Everything you said, was false.
      • flygirl62, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Well, he said something pretty damn close:

        Matthew 10:34 - 37

        "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

        As a Christian, I always *did* have trouble with this part. My thoughts are that he is saying that if those around you want you to choose them over Christ, you must not give in. But the phraseology always bothered me.
    • zybch, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2What about the verse where Jesus tells his followers (not disciples) to bring anyone who doesn't believe before him and to put them to the sword. Thats a fun quote too!
    • dodus, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2He also said "love your neighbor as yourself". Which one will it be ChLb, sword, or love?
  • Corrosionx, on 10/11/2007, -37/+28The left has also used Jesus's message of generosity and sharing to implement welfare and social programs.

    Jesus would have given voluntarily to the needy out of the love in his heart. He wouldn't have used guns and threats of jail time to force people to pay in wealth redistribution schemes.
    • Mewchu11, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven
      For government positions replace camel with blue whale, and eye of a needle with a skin pore
      For lawyers replace blue whale with the moon, and a skin pore with a naked singularity
      • ImOnlySleeping, on 10/11/2007, -4/+5You do realize that the needle in this case is a gate & not a sewing needle.
        The difficulty is that camels were not allowed into town as they were considered unclean, not a matter of squeezing it in there.
        • ImOnlySleeping, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3I don't possibly understand why someone dugg that down.
          • kolobcreek, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1It was my understanding that it was a night entrance to the city when they close the gates at night. And the issue wasn't as much as camels are filthy creatures as you can't bring an army through a small opening in the city wall.
      • Pilot85, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2...what?
    • janeuner, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9Just like the right uses guns and threats of jail time to force people to pay for a crusade to spread democracy.
    • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -10/+2Liberals talking about Jesus?

      What the *****.
      • wannabenomad, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14Contrary to popular belief, Fox News did not, in fact, invent Jesus.
        • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Aren't you funny
          • kolobcreek, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2I laughed my ass off when Hillary Clinton mentioned the words "OUR BIBLE" in a speech only a few weeks after Bush won in 2004. I remember them whining and complaining about how they lost the elections because of religion. What a joke.
    • tazx, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s" - Matt 22
      “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.” - Romans 13
      "Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed." - Romans 13

      • geekee, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3These quotes do not give license for the govt. to tax in Jesus' name. They merely say that one has some duty to submit to secular authority
    • Corrosionx, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I don't care about any bible passages: Government is force and it is wrong, left or right, period.

      If I don't let government books dictate my life what makes you think a church book will?
  • ScornForSega, on 10/11/2007, -24/+15Faith was hijacked on BOTH sides.

    When a man uses his social position as a Reverend to jump on TV and start the heads rolling in a manufacturered outrage, then he has become just as bad as the religious right. Nice work turning the other cheek there, *****.

    All organized religion is b/s, IMO.
  • qasabah, on 10/11/2007, -27/+40Luke 14:26
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Words from the founder of Christianity.

    Nice.
    • dougyfresh, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10lrn2context

      With all the hate thrown out at "soundbyte news," people sure seem to enjoy emulating it a lot (on both sides mind you).
    • DJPhoenix, on 10/11/2007, -4/+32Obama has said in the past that he believes that religion belongs in the home. It's a private and personal experience. I agree with him completely. If you are going to be religious, do it at home. Even if you're going to do good works publicly in the name of your god/faith, that's fine as well, as long as you don't pressure/bully others into believing as you do.
      • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5Do whatever you want, but don't infringe on others' rights.
    • lunarworks, on 10/11/2007, -7/+2"If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

      So Christianity was founded by emo kids?
      • migitalwarfare, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"and hate not" does not equal "hate"
    • SocialPoison, on 10/11/2007, -6/+23Mmmm... selective quoting of the bible ftw?
      http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesussayshate.html

      I don't really care which side of that debate you're on, selectively quoting or omitting sections to "prove" your point is just asshattery.
      • qasabah, on 10/11/2007, -4/+6Do you really want to call that selective?

        How about the other parts of the bible that advocate death and destruction to unbelievers?

        Psalm 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

        Or maybe Joshua 6:20-24

        So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, Heb. 11.30 so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
        21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
        22 ¶ But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot's house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her.
        23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel.
        24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

        Is that sufficiently contextual for you?

        The only asshattery here is the biggotted propagation and promulgation of this farce upon children by their blind parents and a permissive society.

    • unixgold, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8Matt 10:37
      He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

      When the bible was translated, edited, perverted by the "church", MANY things were taken out or replaced with what they deemed appropriate for whatever reasons they had. They wanted control or it was confusing to the clergy. (so much for being "the" church... they couldn't even understand it) But if you look at Matthew 10:37 it helps to clarify what aligns more with Jesus' teachings.

      Then again, 'ye old English' at the time of that translation from whatever language / greek or hebrew, it could have meant a totally different thing. Though I'm no linguistics major, it seems to be a plausible explanation.

      Disclaimer, though I am religious, I do not let extremists change my own beliefs and try to let my life/actions reflect what I am like on the inside. JC taught peace, love and harmony. Anything that seems contrary to that (seeing your quote that you have to hate your family/fellow man) I take as a (translation or deliberate) error and move on without getting hung up on it.

      Hope I don't get modded into oblivion.
      • qasabah, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3Define extremists.
        Your "truth" is no different to your so called extremists.
        You're picking and choosing what to believe based on what? How can you say their interpretation is wrong?
        • taboam, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1MANY things were taken out or replaced with what they deemed appropriate for whatever reasons they had. They wanted control or it was confusing to the clergy. (so much for being "the" church... they couldn't even understand it) But if you look at Matthew 10:37 it helps to clarify what aligns more with Jesus' teachings. Then again, 'ye old English' at the time of that translation from whatever language / greek or hebrew, it could have meant a totally different thing.

          That is truth based on historical evidence.
        • qasabah, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1And it could have also been a perfect translation. You can't choose somethings to have been correctly translated and others not based upon your wishes. At the very least half of the deplorable edict in the bibles were correctly transcribed. However, we also need to realize half of the "good" things in the bible were also incorrectly transated and their real meaning was far more sinister.
    • webandflow, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12We don't know what Jesus said. We do know that translating from Greek is difficult. Here is a more accurate rendition from the Contemporary English Version. It more accurately reflects the views of Christians who feel that Jesus' message was about serving people regardless of who they were and not expecting anything in return, rather than getting oneself blessed and into heaven.

      "You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life."

      It's all in how you take it. Some people read hate, some read love God more than everything else.
      • unixgold, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1You said it better than I did as I'm not a very good writer.
      • qasabah, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Selective interpretation and revision of religious edicts in the bible is the only way to keep it relevant I suppose.
      • joel8x, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Sounds like daddy should have given him a little more attention - talk about low self-esteem.
    • chuckdubdubdub, on 10/11/2007, -6/+2Maybe he's saying "Co-dependency" is a bad thing! Bwahh hah hah hah!
    • merreborn, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Taken out of context, that verse sounds like an endorsement of hate. However, in context, it's anything but. The message is that one must love Jesus more than anyone else in one's life.

      From a more modern translation, that's more suited to the average digger's reading comprehension:
      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014%20;&version=51;

      “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple."


      If you want to attack the bible for the things it actually does say, that's fine with me. But don't construct these absurd straw men.
      • qasabah, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3I hope you're aware of the irony of you invoking the "straw man" argument in this context.
      • nitsuj, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2Hate means hate. You don't like what it says so you say the translation is *****.

        More to the point: "The message is that one must love Jesus more than anyone else in one's life."

        Which is the message of any cult leader.
    • bunnybash, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1haha it's always good to know about the culture and humour of a culture before taking quotes and using them... as someone who has a bachelor in theology, but not a christian, the early first century jewish culture was one of the most sarcastic cultures, often using over reaching statements and sarcasm to make a point. it stemmed from being an opressed people who could not speak out against their oppressors the romans... anyways just thought i would throw my 2c in there... :D
    • LavaHot, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I believe that the common interpretation of this passage is that by accepting Christianity, you can learn to get rid of the hate inside yourself. I'm not saying this as a Christian, as I am extremely Atheist, but i believe in giving folks the benefit of the doubt.
    • sophiaperennis, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1The proper context of this passage, is that the message provides ample reason to love God foremost, even more than any individual (including yourself). This is simply a message to emphasize the importance of divine love over the relative love towards individuals.
  • OMGWTFROFLMAOx2, on 10/11/2007, -2/+15The sad, but true, fact is that in order to have any chance at being elected into a major political office nowadays, you HAVE to hijack faith (or at least pander to bible thumpers) in this country. Unfortunately, more and more people are voting along religious lines as opposed to party ones. This has further made the 2 parties indistinguishable from one another and the party system as a whole, less credible to those who use their brains to vote instead of their "heart"/"soul"/instruction-book-for-life.

    I'm not totally against organized religion. There are a few good (and a ton of bad) things about it and if that's what you feel you need to get you through the day, go for it; but I am against voting based on that religion's teachings as opposed to a candidate's plans for fixing whatever is broken in his/her country.
    • Urusai, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Although religion can do some good in the world, organized religion never has. The worst thing to happen to Christianity was for Constantine to make it the state religion of the Roman Empire.
  • AtHomeBoy2000, on 10/11/2007, -11/+59My pastor taught me this a long time ago.... hate the sin, love the sinner.
    • MacintoshSauce, on 10/11/2007, -8/+3I agree but that doesn't mean that liberal leaning Christians should be pushing for acceptance of homosexuality in the Christian Church. Homosexuality is a sin - read the Bible. There should be NO politics in the Church.
      • Mistaxe, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3So I guess your lying and judgmental ways DO have a place in church? Church is SUPPOSED to be a place for acceptance, forgiveness, peace, and love...not rejection, judgment, and belittlement - as you seem to believe. Perhaps you don't own a mirror, but if you do, you should look into it sometime. You might be surprised at what you see.

    • sailfin, on 10/11/2007, -10/+3Uhhhh, well, yur pastor was wrong
  • suriyou, on 10/11/2007, -8/+36I don't want to be part of faith in the first place.
  • truman48, on 10/11/2007, -10/+2www.nooma.com
  • DJPhoenix, on 10/11/2007, -4/+75Bravo! This is precisely why I support this man. He knows where religion belongs. Personally, I'm an atheist, but I don't have any problem with people who practice religion privately because it helps them. It's when it's pushed on me that I become defensive and upset.
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -4/+2Define "pushed". I believe they can do whatever they want, provided they don't infringe on your rights.
      • MadOtaku, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3And you CAN make stupid comments like that, but I also have the right to dislike it. DJPhoenix never called for government intervention and didn't coerce/force the people to stop. As neither of those happened, rights don't enter into it.
      • davodavo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law
        A similar issue is present in abortion, drug, and marriage laws (among others).
    • sych0, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Completely agree. When its pushed on others and more importantly, when it's used to influence laws is when it becomes a problem.
    • rmeddy, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1I agree, religion has reached it,s point of diminishing returns, Obama really hits the nail the head with this one.
    • bonhoeffer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+0Obama is twisted.
      It is the religious left that made abortion, homosexual acceptance, redefined marriage, and easy divorce the big, divisive issues they have become.
  • soccerman90, on 10/11/2007, -11/+39Obama really knows what's going on. Thats why he's getting my vote
    • WuShuGuShuPORK, on 10/11/2007, -8/+3Obama took money from the RIAA. That's why he's not getting my vote.
      • andkore, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Ummmm. That's the most important issue to you? I mean I don't like them, but after all, they catch pirates... it's not like they're catching innocent people. I mean everyone pirates crap, but it's not like everyone's deluded enough to believe that it's acceptable or that the RIAA is eeeeeevil.
    • soccerman90, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Everyone hates the RIAA
  • youareretarded, on 10/11/2007, -5/+19Respect +1
  • flink405, on 10/11/2007, -23/+4So is he implying we should all become Muslims????
    • pintomp3, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1so what if he did? do u actually have a preference in which imaginary bearded guy you listen to? (just happens it's the same one in this case).
  • AntBing, on 10/11/2007, -5/+60"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"

    -Steven Weinberg-

    • obe1kenobi, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Religion has been around for so long it's hard to say, whether good people would do good things, or whether good people would even exist at all. And I also don't think there are really good or bad people, just that some people do more wrong things, and some that do more good things.
    • merreborn, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2"But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"

      To really argue that, you'd have to claim that the Nazi regime was driven by religion.
      • pintomp3, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8hitler was a christian, and the christian right in germany supported his crusade against homosexuals, jews, gypsies, etc.
        • sunshinemonster, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1In addition to that, Hitler was in the occult and delved in other religions also hence the Swastika (from Hinduism or Buddhism), which means togetherness or something along those lines. Hitler was not a Christian, don't try and make such off landish comments to attack Christianity.
        • looselips, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2@sunshinemonster
          If Hitler wasn't a Christian why did the Vatican support him and help him spread his message of hate for the Jews?
          Even the ignorant know the Swastika is a bent cross. How brilliant are you!
          Unless it is your plan to spread lies and disinformation.
          Brainwashed much?
          Indoctrinated research does not count, learn to use google and references without a biased agenda.
      • dodus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5merreborn: Yeah, in addition to what pintomp3 just said (which is absolutely correct!), why, again, exactly, is that statement only valid if it can be applied to the Nazi regime?
    • dodus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3AntBing, thanks for bringing that quote to my attention, it might be one of the best things I've heard said about the faults of religion.
  • Bogie22, on 10/11/2007, -8/+27Need I remind you all that Chuck Norris is a Christian?
    • converge, on 10/11/2007, -6/+3The man's only flaw.
      • TheFinaleofSeem, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Don't be surprised if Chuck roundhouse kicks a crucifix through your lungs tomorrow.
    • Lobut, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Chuck Norris ressurrected Jesus.
    • sunshinemonster, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Which makes him an awful person, why? I see that intolerance stretches to both sides of the spectrum.
    • looselips, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3***** Chuck! He is only an actor after all, right?
      Religion is dumb! Adults with imaginary friends need medical help.
      Short of Jesus climbing out of the ground and his performing many miracles, including the spontaneous healing of himself and everyone on Earth even those buried in the ground (because he loves you) I would not believe his support for a god, even if he was gods supposed son. If I were Jesus I would have been pissed if I were tortured on a wooden "T" for no reason other than a superior and all knowing being god is restricted from using his "Almighty and Powerful Voice" and instead must only speak in metaphors and kill people, rather then just snap his fingers. All powerful and all loving, why hell then?
      And for different promises of the afterlife..
      why should anyone have to wait until dead to be rewarded?
      All religions seem delusional and dangerous to me.
      Thumbs down for bad sarcasm.
  • sfpfc, on 10/11/2007, -7/+4I think you mean sharpton divided the country
    • Pilot85, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1You have to be taken seriously by a majority of SOME sort to divide a whole country. Sharpton is just an ass.
  • wolvyne, on 10/11/2007, -6/+9This guys continues to impress me.
    • Dewhead, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1What he said was a devisive statement and just drove alot of evangelical Christains further away from the democratic party.
      • JoshChan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2that's why I admire him. He can keep his vision without fearing losing his votes. That's what we need from a good president. There are too many losers in the republican's side who don't believe in evolution just to get the votes of the rednecks. I feel ashamed if USA is ever run by these men.
  • sfpfc, on 10/11/2007, -8/+2I think Sharpton is to blame
  • HyperDav, on 10/11/2007, -7/+12At first I read this article's title as Osama instead of Obama... I think due to the word hijacked.
  • ButterBuddha, on 10/11/2007, -6/+13My Prayers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster have been answered!!! Bless You Obama!!!!
    • Jagdwulfe, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1I worship Cthulhu. I got tired of the FSM not answering my prayers!
  • Atom, on 10/11/2007, -4/+19As a staunch republican I dont often find myself agreeing with any of the democratic talking points but this is one I wish I could dig more then once. Its a shame the way SOME conservatives are manipulating religion and using it to control the masses.
    • MacintoshSauce, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Religion and politics do not mix. Any minister of God that is pushing politics is preaching FALSE DOCTRINE and therefore to be avoided like the plague.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1You sound very staunch.
    • joel8x, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Not for nothing, but the whole point of religion is to control large groups of people. Just like Santa is used to keep kids in line during the holidays.
    • dodus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Atom: I think a Democrat can get away with saying something to that effect, without alienating too much of his/her voting bloc, but it's inconceivable that a conservative Presidential candidate could do the same.
      • rcook18, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1At least not while pandering to the hate mongering religious right.
    • JoshChan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1you are republican and you go to the "tube" and you digg? is that an oxymoron? hahahaha
  • jizzatch, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5Obama is right, but we should be upset when a politician uses any issue to attempt to divide the American people. We should also be upset whenever a person or group attempts to impose their views on others through force.
  • dildoolielly, on 10/11/2007, -18/+14FAITH IN NOTHING IS UTTERLY IRRELEVANT!

    And beliefs based on blind faith are utterly irrelevant. You can believe that cows came from outer space, that aliens created the universe, that people reincarnate into other life forms after death, or that a half-man, half god was sent by his father (and himself) to die for threee days and return to a place called "heaven"...

    You can believe ANY of these propositions but your believing them does NOT make them true or real. So it is wild conjecture at BEST.

    To say we have to believe in "god" because we NEED "meaning" in our lives is ludicrous. If this were the case, then we would have to believe in every single figment of mankind's collective imagination, such as Santa or the Toothfairy to give us purpose.

    If what's true for you is not true for me there is no truth in it. Truth is an absolute, not some wishy washy idea.

    Also, the reason "Jesus" bones haven't been found yet is because they were never here to begin with. While it may come as a suprise to many, it has been known for centuries that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Instead, these are "traditional" names given to anonymously-written works over a hundred years after they were written. This much is not controversial among biblical scholars. What is controversial is the attempt to assign actual authorship to these anonymous works, and to place them in the proper historical, social, cultural, and theological context. The Gospels were not simply eyewitness accounts, or even second-hand accounts, of Jesus' time. Rather, they are products of complicated theological advocacy written generations after Jesus' time. Each Gospel is shown to reflect the author(s) own theological interests and agenda, as each sought to advance their own vision of the emerging religion.

    Christianity as we have come to know it, is the historical product of a historically brief period between the traditional dates of Jesus' ministry and the Council of Nicaea in the early 4th century. During the intervening centuries, Christianity began as a diverse and conflicting collection of religious associations and movements, passed through a period of competition and acrimony among sects, and ended in the triumph of one particular brand of Christianity which has come to be labeled "orthodox." The Gospels reflect the viewpoints, concerns and agendas of these anonymous early Christian writers during the period of competition between the various visions and interpretations of Christianity. In no way were these writers eyewitness to Jesus the Myth

    People who accept religion as a matter of faith are conditioned to accepting words as truth without having to examine any form of proof. Critical thinking isn’t part of the evaluation process. They are conditioned to believe in people, particularly authority figures real or imagined, NOT in evidence or facts. Once they’ve put their trust into the person delivering the words they will believe anything that comes out of that person’s mouth no matter how ridiculous, contradictory, or illogical it sounds. These people who are trusted by religious people wield a great deal of personal power. The Republican Party knows this and exploits this truth to their advantage in every situation. Say what you want but it can’t be denied, accepting religion DEMANDS that you BELIEVE certain things to be true that you wouldn’t under other conditions. Once a person is comfortable foregoing common sense, they become susceptible to anyone who can identify and exploit that one little flaw in that person’s logic.
    • zenerdiode, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5don't know why you're dugg down, but you're dead on.

      Speaking of dead...man, I wish someone had smote Leviticus...or whomever purported to be Leviticus. That on name has brought so much pain to the world.
    • dildoolielly, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5"don't know why you're dugg down,..."
      ---------------------------------------

      Because you cannot debate with fundie Christians. In my experience, they're either intellectually dishonest or simply not smart enough to carry on an honest and intellegent debate.

      It seems they have NO interest whatsoever in scientific debate. It seems all they care about is re-affirming their superstitious beliefs of disturbing stories of hell and damnation and devils and eternal suffering and ramming them down the throats of unsuspecting children.
      I'd be happy to be proven wrong about this. But so far I haven't been.

    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1I have a feeling you are not trying real hard.
    • dodus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"To say we have to believe in "god" because we NEED "meaning" in our lives is ludicrous"

      Are you saying that a.) We should be enlightened enough to enjoy a life with no inherent meaning (with which I agree), or
      b.) that providing meaning and a sense of place in the world is not actually what religion does for people (which is the exact opposite of reality, that's exactly what religion does)
    • aegreen, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3By making such a loaded statement, like saying religious people do not participate in critical thinking, you're detracting from your argument. You also are ignoring a history of religious intellectuals--and the millions out there presently today. Yes, there will exist fundamentalists who reject reason and live in their own self righteous bubbles, just as there will exist atheists who make it their goal in life to criticize and mock organized religion every chance they get. Both sides would benefit from learning, or at least remembering, that few things are ever black and white.
      • dildoolielly, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Feel free to believe in whatever religion you want, but when those beliefs begin to turn into laws and campaign platforms, you've overstepped the boundry separating church from state.

        America is a nation based on FREEDOM.

        If you want a little Christian wonderland, then GO FORM ONE.

        America has already been earmarked as a democratic republic. We have no room for religious zealots trying to elbow in.
  • screensnot, on 10/11/2007, -4/+11The religious right did not hijack religion. It's been a part of religion since the beginning of religion.

    No matter how hard you try to highlight the beautiful parts of religion, you can't hide its ugly side.
    • dorshorst, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Faith is nothing more than fear and superstition. I also fail to see how the Religious Right is unique.
  • hioh83, on 10/11/2007, -3/+17As a Christian, I'm glad someone said this. Sometimes other denominations get lumped in with these crazy evangelicals who mix their faith with politics.
    • bblackshaw, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3When someone's faith *doesn't* mix with their politics I'm more concerned. What kind of faith is of so little importance to someone that it doesn't strongly influence every part of their life? One not worth having IMO. Why should faith be compartmentalized to one's private life anyway?
    • wannabenomad, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I agree. As an Agnostic who grew up in the Episcopal Church, this Jesus Camp-style of shouting, writhing, hate-filled, guitar-in-church Christianity is completely foreign, and strikes me as both bizarre and revolting.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4John 14:6 NASB: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

      Are you really a Christian? Not that getting into politics is necessarily the best thing for Christians to do, nor do I believe that Jesus would have been a Republican. With that being said, do you really believe? Are you really willing to compromise biblical truth so that you can blend into the world? Are the people that you hide your light from of so little value to you? Are you more concerned about fitting in then witnessing the truth?

      Matthew 10 KJV Jesus talking.

      10 : 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
      10 : 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
      10 : 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
      10 : 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
      10 : 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
      10 : 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
      10 : 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

      The gospel has never been about compromising with the world. True believers will never compromise on the truth so that we can all sing Kum By Yah and hold hands with unbelievers who are perishing for lack of the truth. Eternal destinies are more important than being liked by the world. Hioh83 I don't know anything about you, but from your post it sounds like you need to examine who you are in Christ.
    • slartibartphast, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3infocyde is very logical. You can't turn your beliefs on and off, that's like not having any. Can't say to god, oopsie I sinned, but I was at work so it doesn't count. No crossed fingers here.
  • tommyhat, on 10/11/2007, -9/+11Religion bad, faith good.

    Faith brings people together but religion gives them reasons to hate.
    • GeekStarPilot, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1I agree with you. This has always been my approach to life.

      What "religious" people forget is that most of the organised religions in the world are nothing more than a "political" movement pushing an ideology.

      Many of the people who follow these religions may also be "faithful" but unfortunately a not insignificant number of followers of any religion are basically that "followers of the religion" and believe anything that the leaders of the religion feed to them.
    • ekstasis16, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

      How exactly are you defining those words? Faith is usually spoken of as a very personal thing that can't truly be shared, where as 'religion' is composed of repeating rituals that are meant to strengthen one's faith. The religion is a community sharing of personal faith, so I would think that religion should bring people closer together ideally.

      Either way, both words are based on believing things that fly in the face of logic, reason and epistemology. Not a good way to get through life, in my experience.
  • DiggzDE, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2I opened this link at 66 diggs. Went and did some work for 15 minutes and came back and it was up to 266.
  • Raian, on 10/11/2007, -10/+8It's 2007, and the guy running for president of the United States of America is talking about faith? What is wrong with this picture... Obama should talk about something that matters, and stop trying to appease different potential voting groups.
    • lajaw, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1He's a leftist. They hate God.
    • PhillipL, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Why? He's aiming to get elected. I mean he could take your advise if he was aiming to not get elected, but I'm pretty sure his stated goal is to get elected. And that takes some appeasement to large segments of the population that is voting. Otherwise they won't vote for you and consequently you won't win and well that means you failed to achieve the previously stated goal. I'm guessing you're not much of a strategist.
      • GeekStarPilot, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3PhillipL you have got it completely correct.

        Unfortunately the US Electorate as a whole (not necessarily individual voters) are so limited in their thinking and outlook that they are unable to accept that it is even vaguely possible for a person that is either atheist, agnostic or god forbid (pardon the pun) a believer in some non-Christian religion could be a good leader of the USA.
    • ekstasis16, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Amen.
    • dodus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I'm glad he's making an issue of it and confronting it directly, it's a serious, serious problem in the U.S.
  • redfan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12Obama has been making this point since at least 2004. Religion isn't a bad thing. Religion being manipulated by the wrong people is.

    It's somewhat fitting that he talks about faith--he's pretty much the only leader in this country that I have any faith in to begin with.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2What do you think Obama would say to John 14:6 or Matthew 10:34? Romans 1:20-26? Obama is a politician, I doubt he is a Christian...but ultimately that is between he and Jesus.
  • venson, on 10/11/2007, -10/+3WTF - I thought this was about Osama Bin Laden until I read some comments. Found it odd that I was agreeing with Bin Laden though....
  • civperc, on 10/11/2007, -8/+1A you're gonna magically change how people feel and act, Obama? No-one's capable of that, and frankly it's the least of my concerns when choosing a leader for our country.
    • GeekStarPilot, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0He might not be able to magically change everyone at once but hopefully he might be able to change the mind (or even get some people start to question their current beliefs) of a enough people to give the new approach some momentum for change.

      Unfortunately it is going to take a one or two generations of people to actually die for major change to happen.
  • ScottAG, on 10/11/2007, -0/+25The problem with faith is that it's so very hijackable.
  • richiestang78, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Or faith and religion have no business in modern government issues as the founding fathers wanted and the issues of being divided is just a belief problem rather then social law problem.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3funny...some of the first public schools used the Bible as their text books. The founding fathers didn't have a problem with it. Learn your history. You live in a nation that was never a christian nation (none-exists), but Christianity played a huge roll in both the founding father's political thought and our social law.
  • SenatorLampoon, on 10/11/2007, -8/+1I have faith that the nation will not be hijacked by Obama and his foney doing the Lord's work crapola.

    He and every liberal politico on record, as well as 90% of the conservative religious nutcases all can ask the same question and get the same answer, "Would Jesus vote for me?"

    I asked Jesus, lord of lords, god son of the one and only living god of biblical fiction that very question. And I'm here to tell you brothers and sisters, Jesus says he wouldn't vote for a single one of these boneheads, and especially he wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a socialist bag of wind.
  • Jonmad17, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2My brother was there when Barack gave that speech.It was within walking distance from his job and they just let him in.Lucky bastard.Too bad he's a republican.
    • JoshChan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2a republican? too bad we have to shot him.
  • monkeyrun, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Christianity has always been "hijacked" by politics.

    The only time Christianity's not manipulated was before Roman Catholic Empire (before it's popular).
    • Pilot85, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10Back when Christianity was "Indie" it was way cooler.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1If you can't beat 'em join 'em.
    • bunnybash, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Monkeyrun, finally someone who actually knows something about christianity and it's history makes a wise comment!! you are right too... when Constantine decided to "convert" many things went to the pooper... it became about big buildings, and instead of being about making the world a better place it became about making the christians in power, making their world better for them!

      i agree "indie" christianity is way cooler...
  • Hangender, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5And he is right, whatever happen to secular state? Now everyone congress men have to believe in some faith.
  • SuckMyDigg, on 10/11/2007, -8/+3Are you ***** kidding me? Is this a lullabye? Are we supposed to sway back and forth and swoon for the first black president? ***** that. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing. What are some issues today? Iraq? Iran? Syria? Russia? The slowly eroding economy? Our indifference towards practical healthcare plans?

    Oh lordy lordy, the faith has been lost. Heavens no. Hallelleujah Obama found it. But wait, he didn't say he found it. He didn't really say anything at all. Well I'll be goddamned. Guess I should burn in hell for caring about ACTUAL ISSUES instead of the faith.
    • dagamer34, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2-_-

      You're an idiot
    • schnoggi, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1no, he's not an idiot, this is exactly what I mistrust about this empty suit with a nice voice. instead of having a real spine, which would of course immediately get him kicked out of this useless party, he panders to the brainless just like the thugs on the Right. ***** him, ***** the Dems, the ***** on the right take all the rope we give them (and steal more), hang themselves, the Dems untie it and give them more, and it never ends.
  • vicsvenge, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5I'm glad somebody has the balls to say this... however I can't help but feel Obama is shooting himself in the foot with all of this talk that makes sense. Let's face it. American's don't want to know what's going on, they never have. They want to remain blissfully ignorant and be secure scared little sheep. I wish Obama luck. Hopefully he can change the direction of the political system in this country.
    • schnoggi, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2rigggghhht, he's going to change it by continuing to pander to the sheep.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1like you aren't a sheep...does your blog reading and 20 minutes of CNN, maybe watching Anderson 360 make you a luminatry into what s going on in the world? Get real.
  • geekee, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4"“But somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together,”

    Faith still brings groups of people together, and still separates these groups from other groups with different faiths, just like it always has.
    • epicurus42, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Faith certainly brings people together - to kill each other.
  • Jagdwulfe, on 10/11/2007, -5/+2I have to agree with Osama. I just got into an argument here with a Gunny. He thinks that just because Tom Cruise is a scientologist the German Government does not want allow filming of the movie about the plot to kill Hitler. I said that is probably not the case so much as the German sensitivity to WWII. He goes off about how the Germans don't consider it a religion and such and I said it is just as valid a religion as Christianity. Of course he brings up how old Christianity is and such. I had to remind it that it had a start just like Scientology does. Granted I am agnostic so to me as long as a religion is not hurting anyone I don't care if they worship rocks they are all valid.
  • kolobcreek, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4I totally see how killing unborn babies can be considered a non-religious issue. I mean come on. Does God really care about unborn children? How dare anyone hijack the any one of the Christian faith to try and stop an abortion.

    I'm glad we have someone like Sen. Obama to point out that the Christian faith has been hijacked by radical pro-lifers. Maybe someday Christians will be able to root out the radicals like the Muslims do. Now there is a faith that hasn't been hijacked.
    • pintomp3, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5a clump of cells is NOT a baby.
      • addicted68098, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Can we be Human without self awareness?
        Some may see potential, and some may see what is
        it's more of the value society placed on children
      • addicted68098, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1odd, it posted double
      • neondiet, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1--"Can we be Human without self awareness?"--

        Nope. But at what point does self awareness kick in. It's not measurable; but 3D animated scans of babies practicing sucking their thumb and walking at 12 weeks is a good clue. In my view anything that doesn't have a developed nervous system is still in the "clump of cells" category. After that it gets a bit fuzzy.

      • neondiet, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1--"Can we be Human without self awareness?"--

        Nope. But at what point does self awareness kick in. It's not measurable; but 3D animated scans of babies practicing sucking their thumb and walking at 12 weeks is a good clue. In my view anything that doesn't have a developed nervous system is still in the "clump of cells" category. After that it gets a bit fuzzy.

    • spurtle, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Where do killed unborn babies go to? Do they go to Heaven? Do they go to Hell? Do they go to Purgatory, doing their time before eventually going to Heaven?
    • mkameli, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I just don't know where you make the cutoff. When does that clump of cells become a baby? As far as where they go, the God I believe in doesn't send unborn babies to hell.
  • theendlessnow, on 10/11/2007, -9/+4Hijacked? What?!!

    Somehow faith is now a general feeling about what I BELIEVE to be true?!!. Is God dead now? You know you really can't kill God. So this is just nonsense. Faith is not about tolerating sin... and it never has been. I can't believe Obama is advocating this. Why promote the sinfulness of man ... and why oh why call it "faith". You might as well poke God and eye, give Him the finger and tell Him to go to Hell. Ludicrous.

    Christianity means to be like Christ. Being like Christ means that we love the sinner, but it DOES NOT mean we should love or coddle the sin! If Jesus wanted love to equate to licentiousness, He would have said that clearly. Instead He says that we are all sinners in need of salvation. And that's the core of true faith. Believing that I need a savior and that savior is Jesus Christ. Folks, this is Christianity 101. Anyone spinning something different is not telling the truth.

    With regards to a "secular" state, a man has to fight hard to deny the love of God... which is why many people have true faith. Sometimes this comes with age... the idea that I'm not perfect and that in order to be with God, I'd have to be Holy (perfect). And thus I'm stuck... and thus I need a Savior. It does not surprise me to know that our congressmen, who tend to be older than most folks, would be at least looking for truth... especially if they've come to a conclusion about their own "holiness" before God. I hope that most of them are Christians.... I really do. It's a good sign of wisdom.


    • schnoggi, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2blah blah blah, wish I could block you so i never have to read more stupid circular ***** like this...at least not from you anyway. "Faih" just means you're too lazy to ask any tough questions, and too stupid to try and find answers to the ones that run faster than you.
    • nitsuj, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3"Is God dead now?"

      How can something be dead if, in all likelihood, it did not exist in the first place?

      "With regards to a "secular" state, a man has to fight hard to deny the love of God... which is why many people have true faith. Sometimes this comes with age... the idea that I'm not perfect and that in order to be with God, I'd have to be Holy (perfect)."

      Absolute *****. Many other people believe in other 'gods'. Yours in not the only brand of delusion in town. As an atheist I can happily inform you that it takes absolutely no effort at all to deny the love of something that, again in all likelihood, doesn't exist. None whatsoever.

      "It's a good sign of wisdom."

      Sure, because believing in 2000 year old bronze age myths means you're so clued up.
  • 450bigblock, on 10/11/2007, -6/+1Finally! I was getting worried when two whole minutes went by without a crooksandliars post on the front page! Now where the hell are those thinkprogress and raw story posts? Don't start slackin' off now people! We've only got about a year and a half to kick ***** out of office! PAUL/GRAVEL/OBAMA 08!111!!!!!1!1!
  • Jack9, on 10/11/2007, -6/+3He is INCORRECT. Faith has never been about bringing people together, but allowing people to identify themselves as above (and therefore separate) from others. Nutjobs get dugg up, even on digg.
    • pintomp3, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1faith can unite, but it can also unite people against other people.
    • slartibartphast, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Above? Not Christians, you're actually obliged to know you're not above anyone.
    • thesixthdesign, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Nutjobs post stupid comments on Digg too. =P
  • ItsTheSun, on 10/11/2007, -7/+4i agree with 450bigblock.... stories from crooksandliars should not be posted on this site as they are not a news site! They have zero original material. Add it to the list with gizmodo please!
    • sportsword, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1articles should be submitted if those who submit them want to -- it's a reflection of free speech. i do agree with your sentiment, and think anybody should point out that non-news sources can only be trusted to a certain point (in this case zero)
  • paradexes, on 10/11/2007, -7/+4AHEM....separation of Church and State. This country was founded on that as one of the notions. Both sides now use religion as a political weapon of sorts. They place themselves on the moral high ground exploiting the faith of those who would believe and have hope in something better.

    I am religious. I just don't act very blindly to everything I hear. Faith is not about being blind. It is about believing and acting in the manner your faith has taught you with a hope of something better. If people actually sat down and read their religions tomes (Bible, Koran, Torah, Book Of Mormon, ect) you would see that what we are dealing with politically now is the same crap that happened in the Dark Ages. People in charge read the books and everyone else just listens, either because they cannot read the language or because they do not wish to read it.

    Like the dark ages we are being kept in the dark. If you actually read the books with a more studious mind instead letting it collect dust on a shelf you would see what I mean. Faith has been lost because of ignorance to th very faiths we profess to worship. And this include professed Atheiests as well. You are not exempt from this. Do you know where atheism came from without looking at wikipedia? Be honest with yourself if not with me.

    Most people know little or nothing of their own friggin belief system. I know when I talk to people of my own faith I am amazed to learn how little they know about their beliefs and how blindly they follow it. They answer questions in mantras, prepackaged answers. This is the same for many of the other faiths I have studied. I have found SOOOO much more in every belief then what is generally portrayed and visibly seen.

    If you also read your tomes you would find that people fought for their independence. People did what was needed. They were not just sheep being led to the slaughter so to speak. When they were complacent they got killed because of the incompetence of their rulers. All you need to do is read and learn. The rest will come to you after that.

    Fear rules us now. You have the talking heads going off on terror this and terror that and we will die here and there and they will follow us home and blah blah. This is not what religion is SUPPOSED to teach. It is clearly laid out. People have mixed their personal philosophies in with religion. Most if not all religions have this problem. The point is to stay true to what is written. The meanings are clear when you don't selectively clutter them with other people's philosophies. Read it all in context.

    Remember the phrase United we stand, Divided we fall. regardless of faith we all need to stand against the government. I propose for the next election we vote ONLY independent. dont care which party. Green, Libertarian, Mutant, Vampire. Doesn't matter as long as it is not either Dems or Reps which have in many ways become one and the same. Corporate controlled intrests. We still have hope as long as we are willing to make the change. Once we lose that ability it will be that much harder to get OUR government back in the hands of the people.
    • infocyde, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2There is no seperation of church and state. Find it in the Constitution for me. You can't, because it isn't there. There is however the anti-establishment clause, meaning that the government cannot establish a state religion. The government of the United States of America is not anti-religious, it just doesn't elevate one religion over another. Maybe you should read the political tombs as well as you allege you have read your religious tomb.
    • mtwolf, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
      More info here http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm
  • allahuakbar, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1@theendlessnow

    Wow, they burn something other than incense where you go? I want to go there, it would be a good weekly break from reality.
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