/Tech1d ago

Former OpenAI researcher Will Depue signals an active deep learning community controversy over second-order optimizers

Their heavy computational requirements have historically limited mainstream adoption.

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Original post
will depue@willdepue#315inTech

extremely niche second order optimizer drama going down rn

1:55 PM · Jun 8, 2026 · 30K Views
Sentiment

Many users are entertained by the niche drama over second-order optimizers because of the deep arguments around loss curves and natural policy gradients, while some criticize the community's terminology.

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14.3%
7 comments with sentiment.
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VIEWS3.5KLIKES13
swyx@swyx

@willdepue been a bit since we had the battle of the bathroom essentials

will depue@willdepue

extremely niche second order optimizer drama going down rn

1dViews 3.5KLikes 13Bookmarks 0
REPLIES3
heiner@HeinrichKuttler

@willdepue how is it second order?

will depue@willdepue

extremely niche second order optimizer drama going down rn

1dViews 1.5KLikes 5Bookmarks 0
Nina@NinaPanickssery

@willdepue it’s just he ssian she said

1dViews 100Likes 6
Gill Verdon@GillVerd

if you have an opinion on shampoo vs muon beef you are too online

will depue@willdepue

extremely niche second order optimizer drama going down rn

1dViews 1.5KLikes 8Bookmarks 0
Tarun Kathuria@_TarunKathuria

@willdepue 🤣 although tbh, the community calling them second order is the real travesty

1dViews 786Likes 8
Tim Lau@timlautk

@willdepue *first order matrix optimizer

1dViews 479Likes 7
will depue@willdepue

@NinaPanickssery wow this was advanced. bravo

1dViews 795Likes 5
heiner@HeinrichKuttler

@giffmana @willdepue I hessian't quite understood what we mean by 2nd order these days

@HeinrichKuttler @willdepue Takes a moment to understand. Maybe there's a different variance of the pun that could land more smoothly.

1dViews 1.2KLikes 3Bookmarks 0
Alex YGift@Radipdegen

@willdepue gotta admit i respect the depths people will go to argue about loss curves

1dViews 693Likes 1
summer@awaysummer2005

@willdepue I was dying for these drama

1dViews 404
Nina@NinaPanickssery

@willdepue it’ll blow over in a moment

1dViews 38Likes 2
Frosty40@FrostForger

@willdepue shit boy, this is mainstream

1dViews 202
liam@liamesp

@willdepue muon is shampoo and zendaya is meechee

1dViews 133
/@gazorp5

@willdepue many

1dViews 119
K7@FuckElon54528

@willdepue what does it mean?

1dViews 111
Strata@ChainZenit

@willdepue this sounds like the most entertaining math drama ever.

1dViews 66
York@YorkTheWest

@willdepue It’s turns out natural policy gradient was cool all along

1dViews 51
HDP@HDPbilly

@willdepue Good

1dViews 34
Aashish Reddy@_AashishReddy

@NinaPanickssery @willdepue he ssian she sayin Maybe

1dViews 11
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