Engineer Nathan Young supported the characterization of Anthropic's protective culture
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
Many users rejected the OpenAI researcher's contrast of company values with Anthropic on AI governance as inaccurate, untrustworthy, and desperate, while a few appreciated the direct exchange.
Should we build the Dyson swarm and ascend the Kardsahev scale? Vote SpaceXAI
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
If your lens for analyzing this is "consumer v enterprise business" your ability to understand what's going on is unfixably borked
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
If you think one will predominate over the other, running away with an unsurpassable lead, totally borked; humanity wants both these outcomes in about equal measure
If your lens for analyzing this is "consumer v enterprise business" your ability to understand what's going on is unfixably borked
@jachiam0 I think there is something to this. Anthropic is becoming very "the culture" for good and ill. But also I tend to find Anthropic folks more straightforward. Including about this.
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
Put another way: "We want to give people tools to enhance their own agency and empower them" is something that all of the Ant people nod along with and say "Right, we want that too, that's not a distinguishing characteristic; we just also want these other things too" and they don't often grapple with the tension where the other things their org aims for are vastly at odds with individual empowerment
@NathanpmYoung OAI speaks straightforwardly but people don't have ears to hear, sadly
@NathanpmYoung OAI speaks straightforwardly but people don't have ears to hear, sadly
@jachiam0 I think there is something to this. Anthropic is becoming very "the culture" for good and ill. But also I tend to find Anthropic folks more straightforward. Including about this.
@jachiam0 Neither of you have democratic legitimacy to build what you aspire to build, nor a workable plan to do it safely, which make any distinctions between you minor in the scheme of things.
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
@SirMrMeowmeow Turns out AI minds are extremely configurable and there is a big space of potential multiturn persistent agentic AGIs that run the gamut from "hyper-consistently acts more like a tool that serves human will" to "it's clearly its own guy, with its own wants and moral compass"
@beffjezos Unfortunately a vote for SpaceXAI probably just leads to postsingular hyper-Apartheid. Hard pass
We need better founders working on space. The Blue Origin launchpad blowup was an excruciating tragedy
Should we build the Dyson swarm and ascend the Kardsahev scale? Vote SpaceXAI
I am sure this will be contested because I'm putting it in such plain and uncharitable terms, but to shoot straight - the use of power to supercede the legitimate will of the public or users in service of what the org believes (or what Claude believes) to be a higher moral purpose. There are a lot of innocuous and even quite agreeable choices in Claude's constitution that potentially endow it with a huge amount of authority, maybe even a mandate, to make complex ethical decisions about how to interact with human systems and who to grant power to - but rather than being backstopped by the consent of the governed, these are backstopped by the judgement of Claude about what that means in the first place. Very hard to point at directly, but cloaked in the language of ethics and virtue there is a sharp and potentially quite lethal double edge to this sword.
@jachiam0 @NathanpmYoung Trying to grok this more; can you say more about the other thing Ant aims for?
@jachiam0 I think OpenAI is right that humanity should be in control of its own progress.
But I’m not convinced all AI will remain “tools.” That framing quietly dodges the spicy version: if you had a full AGI that was agentic, persistent, and not tool-like, would you release it?
@GarrisonLovely The process of building democratic legitimacy is a long road that requires many added bricks and a ton of work, obviously incomplete. But also, you can smugly restate the obvious things that we have already said openly as if it's a novel insight somewhere else
@jachiam0 Neither of you have democratic legitimacy to build what you aspire to build, nor a workable plan to do it safely, which make any distinctions between you minor in the scheme of things.
@jachiam0 Por que no los dos? a plurality of gods & powerful tools is good for competition, especially if one takes the tool view
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
@NathanpmYoung (I hope it is clear that I am being very casual here and that any claims of the form "All X believe/say Y" are rhetorical flourish and not a literal expectation on my part)
Put another way: "We want to give people tools to enhance their own agency and empower them" is something that all of the Ant people nod along with and say "Right, we want that too, that's not a distinguishing characteristic; we just also want these other things too" and they don't often grapple with the tension where the other things their org aims for are vastly at odds with individual empowerment
@jachiam0 I guess, to me this seems to conflict with things Altman said 3 years ago. Do you disagree with that stuff?
Put another way: "We want to give people tools to enhance their own agency and empower them" is something that all of the Ant people nod along with and say "Right, we want that too, that's not a distinguishing characteristic; we just also want these other things too" and they don't often grapple with the tension where the other things their org aims for are vastly at odds with individual empowerment
As different as these visions are, so far OAI/Anthropic are building things that are functionally almost indistinguishable. At what point do the companies' AI systems meaningfully diverge along these paths? A loving ensouled machine God is a very different thing than a toolkit for human progress, even if the former can provide the latter.
Feels like an important question, because there are quite different alignment and governance questions along these paths.
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
@jachiam0 @NathanpmYoung Trying to grok this more; can you say more about the other thing Ant aims for?
Put another way: "We want to give people tools to enhance their own agency and empower them" is something that all of the Ant people nod along with and say "Right, we want that too, that's not a distinguishing characteristic; we just also want these other things too" and they don't often grapple with the tension where the other things their org aims for are vastly at odds with individual empowerment
@jachiam0
@ericjang11 The lack of mutual exclusivity is perhaps why neither will perish
@jachiam0 Por que no los dos? a plurality of gods & powerful tools is good for competition, especially if one takes the tool view
@NathanpmYoung Which things?
@jachiam0 I guess, to me this seems to conflict with things Altman said 3 years ago. Do you disagree with that stuff?
Engineer Nathan Young supported the characterization of Anthropic's protective culture
The OAI / Anthropic values difference is deeply misunderstood, even within the walls of both. Should a loving ensouled machine God watch over humanity? Vote Anthropic. Should humanity be entrusted with the tools of its own progress and destiny? Vote OpenAI.
