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    Matt Shumer Shares Manager Loop for Astra Builds

    Matt Shumer explains his approach to handling complex projects with Astra.

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    3 Sources, 27d ago, first seen 27d ago

    TLDR

    Matt Shumer posted that he completed super long-horizon builds with Astra after default performance fell short on difficult tasks. He tested several approaches and settled on a method he calls the Manager Loop. A manager agent builds a phased checklist and directs an implementer agent through each stage in goal mode, using tricks such as progress-tracking HTML pages and prompts that ask for work done "extremely well" rather than perfectly. In a reply, Shumer stated he ran out of time to improve the technique and listed untested next steps, including having the manager spin up a fresh implementer per phase with a written handoff to limit context growth.

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    3 Sources, first seen 27d ago

    Combined views

    561.1K

    3 Sources, first seen 27d ago

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    183 comments
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    478 reposts

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    183 comments
    6.8K saves
    478 reposts
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    3 Sources

    @mattshumer_A lot of people are asking how I pulled off these super long-horizon builds with Astra. Astra is extremely powerful, but by default it struggled with a task this difficult. I tested a bunch of approaches to get past this, and the one I landed on is something I'm calling the Manager Loop. It's basically a couple of tricks we used to use with much less capable models a couple of years ago, with a few new ideas layered on top. Turns out that when you put those together and apply them to Astra, its ability to do extremely difficult long-horizon tasks goes up dramatically. Here's how it works: 1. Launch an agent (I'm calling this one the "manager"). Chat with it about what you want to get done, and have it build a massive checklist of to-dos, then break that checklist into phases. 2. The manager then spawns a second Codex agent in a separate thread (the "implementer"). The two agents can message each other. 3. Put the manager in /goal mode, and tell it to run each phase on the implementer in /goal mode. 4. The manager messages the implementer: "/goal Complete phase one completely, extremely well." The implementer doesn't stop until that phase is done, then messages the manager back. The manager tells it to start phase two. They repeat until every phase is finished, completely autonomously. Why I think this works: over a long-horizon task, Astra tends to asymptote. It gets way further than previous models, but at a certain point it kind of just stops improving against the goal as quickly as it did before. It gets stuck in the minutiae, focusing way too much on small details, and overall progress stalls. The Manager Loop forces it to work piecemeal, one phase at a time. It's essentially how a human would steer a model, except the model is doing the steering for me. That's actually how this started. I was having the model write the checklist and break it into phases, and then I was doing the manager's job by hand. At some point I thought, "Wait, why can't I just get a separate AI to do this?" That's what unlocked full autonomy, which is super useful. A wording detail that seemed to matter: I ask for each phase to be done "extremely well," not "perfectly." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but asking for "perfect" sent the model right back into the minutiae. "Extremely well" implies it's allowed to move on once it's good enough, and that worked better in my testing. One more trick that I think helps (this one is more of a hunch, but it was useful for me): have the implementer build a simple HTML page with the full checklist on it. The implementer checks boxes off as it goes and updates a counter, and the page has a chart of # of boxes ticked over time. Obviously the boxes aren't all equal, but it forces the model to notice things like "I haven't made progress in a while, time to move on." You can even put this in the prompt directly, like: "if you haven't ticked a box in X amount of time, move on". That helps a lot. I also ran 96 sub-agents at a time. You can change this in your Codex config (or just ask Codex to change it). This got me far better long-horizon performance than anything else I tried. I'll be sharing more in the coming days!
    @zacharynadoRT @mattshumer_: A lot of people are asking how I pulled off these super long-horizon builds with Astra. Astra is extremely powerful, but…

    3 Sources

    @mattshumer_A lot of people are asking how I pulled off these super long-horizon builds with Astra. Astra is extremely powerful, but by default it struggled with a task this difficult. I tested a bunch of approaches to get past this, and the one I landed on is something I'm calling the Manager Loop. It's basically a couple of tricks we used to use with much less capable models a couple of years ago, with a few new ideas layered on top. Turns out that when you put those together and apply them to Astra, its ability to do extremely difficult long-horizon tasks goes up dramatically. Here's how it works: 1. Launch an agent (I'm calling this one the "manager"). Chat with it about what you want to get done, and have it build a massive checklist of to-dos, then break that checklist into phases. 2. The manager then spawns a second Codex agent in a separate thread (the "implementer"). The two agents can message each other. 3. Put the manager in /goal mode, and tell it to run each phase on the implementer in /goal mode. 4. The manager messages the implementer: "/goal Complete phase one completely, extremely well." The implementer doesn't stop until that phase is done, then messages the manager back. The manager tells it to start phase two. They repeat until every phase is finished, completely autonomously. Why I think this works: over a long-horizon task, Astra tends to asymptote. It gets way further than previous models, but at a certain point it kind of just stops improving against the goal as quickly as it did before. It gets stuck in the minutiae, focusing way too much on small details, and overall progress stalls. The Manager Loop forces it to work piecemeal, one phase at a time. It's essentially how a human would steer a model, except the model is doing the steering for me. That's actually how this started. I was having the model write the checklist and break it into phases, and then I was doing the manager's job by hand. At some point I thought, "Wait, why can't I just get a separate AI to do this?" That's what unlocked full autonomy, which is super useful. A wording detail that seemed to matter: I ask for each phase to be done "extremely well," not "perfectly." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but asking for "perfect" sent the model right back into the minutiae. "Extremely well" implies it's allowed to move on once it's good enough, and that worked better in my testing. One more trick that I think helps (this one is more of a hunch, but it was useful for me): have the implementer build a simple HTML page with the full checklist on it. The implementer checks boxes off as it goes and updates a counter, and the page has a chart of # of boxes ticked over time. Obviously the boxes aren't all equal, but it forces the model to notice things like "I haven't made progress in a while, time to move on." You can even put this in the prompt directly, like: "if you haven't ticked a box in X amount of time, move on". That helps a lot. I also ran 96 sub-agents at a time. You can change this in your Codex config (or just ask Codex to change it). This got me far better long-horizon performance than anything else I tried. I'll be sharing more in the coming days!
    @zacharynadoRT @mattshumer_: A lot of people are asking how I pulled off these super long-horizon builds with Astra. Astra is extremely powerful, but…