• Home
  • Technology
  • Gaming
  • Entertainment
  • World & Business
  • Science
  • Sports
  • AI
HomeTechnologyGamingEntertainmentWorld & BusinessScienceSportsAI
  • HomeTechnologyGamingEntertainmentWorld & BusinessScienceSportsAI
    • Home
    • Technology
    • Gaming
    • Entertainment
    • World & Business
    • Science
    • Sports
    • AI
    AI

    Professor Questions Open Source Dominance in Non-Frontier AI

    MIT assistant professor and DeepMind researcher questions assumptions about open source AI ecosystem dominance.

    HB
    MB
    B(
    4 Sources, 24d ago, first seen 24d ago

    TLDR

    Michiel Bakker, an MIT assistant professor and Google DeepMind researcher, posted on X questioning assumptions that a large open source ecosystem will dominate non-frontier models while frontier labs focus on the most capable ones. He suggested that frontier labs' potential edges in automated researchers, compute, and teacher models for distillation could allow them to build cheaper models and achieve higher margins, potentially undercutting providers like Baseten and Together as a concern rather than a certainty. Herbie Bradley replied that open source inference providers avoid amortizing development costs and that frontier labs have not led in sub-frontier models so far. Bakker agreed the points are fair but wondered if the current division of labor is stable.

    Combined views

    4.9K

    4 Sources, first seen 24d ago

    Combined views

    4.9K

    4 Sources, first seen 24d ago

    44 likes
    44 likes
    7 comments
    22 saves
    2 reposts

    Sentiment

    Positive——Negative

    Summary

    Not enough discussion yet.

    No sentiment analysis available yet.

    7 comments
    22 saves
    2 reposts

    Sentiment

    Positive——Negative

    Summary

    Not enough discussion yet.

    No sentiment analysis available yet.

    Today's Rank

    —

    Not ranked yet

    Today's Rank

    —

    Not ranked yet

    4 Sources

    @bakkermichielLots of people (inc this great article!) seem to assume that, long term, a big open source ecosystem will dominate non-frontier tokens while the frontier labs focus on the most capable models. But I'm surprised why people are so sure about this. If the frontier labs have better (automated) AI researchers, more compute, and the best teacher models for distillation, why wouldn’t those advantages also help them build the best/fastest cheap models? If they can serve the same quality at a fundamentally lower cost they could undercut independent providers while still making better margins. You’d expect that to translate into market share over time. I guess currently this market is not as attractive for frontier labs as compute is scarce and frontier demand is so strong (+ they want good blended margins for ipo) but if the labs fundamentally have a better return on compute than the open source ecosystem you think they will win that sooner or later as well. So, while I think it would be much better for the world if things are less concentrated, I worry that itll be hard for inference-for-open-weight-model companies like Baseten and Together to keep growing long term. (One caveat is that customer specific post-training is maybe more defensible. Data, environments, and feedback could let specialists beat the labs on particular tasks, even with a weaker base model)
    @herbiebradleyTwo arguments come to mind: 1. Open source inference providers don't have to amortize the cost of development into pricing, so their margins can be lower. 2. In practice so far I don't think frontier labs have succeeded at making the best sub frontier models, partially because the best are made by labs for whom this is their best model, so they care about it and dogfood it internally, in stark contrast to frontier labs.
    @andersonbcdefg@herbiebradley @bakkermichiel yeah i cant explain the why as well but it is notable that sonnet 5 and haiku 4.5 are both nowhere near the pareto front and it seems like making them "too much better" almost cannibalizes the fancier offerings. if people will pay for opus why make sonnet good?

    4 Sources

    @bakkermichielLots of people (inc this great article!) seem to assume that, long term, a big open source ecosystem will dominate non-frontier tokens while the frontier labs focus on the most capable models. But I'm surprised why people are so sure about this. If the frontier labs have better (automated) AI researchers, more compute, and the best teacher models for distillation, why wouldn’t those advantages also help them build the best/fastest cheap models? If they can serve the same quality at a fundamentally lower cost they could undercut independent providers while still making better margins. You’d expect that to translate into market share over time. I guess currently this market is not as attractive for frontier labs as compute is scarce and frontier demand is so strong (+ they want good blended margins for ipo) but if the labs fundamentally have a better return on compute than the open source ecosystem you think they will win that sooner or later as well. So, while I think it would be much better for the world if things are less concentrated, I worry that itll be hard for inference-for-open-weight-model companies like Baseten and Together to keep growing long term. (One caveat is that customer specific post-training is maybe more defensible. Data, environments, and feedback could let specialists beat the labs on particular tasks, even with a weaker base model)
    @herbiebradleyTwo arguments come to mind: 1. Open source inference providers don't have to amortize the cost of development into pricing, so their margins can be lower. 2. In practice so far I don't think frontier labs have succeeded at making the best sub frontier models, partially because the best are made by labs for whom this is their best model, so they care about it and dogfood it internally, in stark contrast to frontier labs.
    @andersonbcdefg@herbiebradley @bakkermichiel yeah i cant explain the why as well but it is notable that sonnet 5 and haiku 4.5 are both nowhere near the pareto front and it seems like making them "too much better" almost cannibalizes the fancier offerings. if people will pay for opus why make sonnet good?