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65 Nanometer Microprocessors Coming to an Xbox 360 Near You

games.gearlive.com — Dean Takahashi has a write-up regarding the upcoming 65nm microprocessors reportedly shipping on new Xbox 360 units.

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  • Narcowski, on 10/10/2007, -28/+665nm processors confirmed false.
    • NeoOfTheSith, on 10/10/2007, -10/+9How long has your head been stuck in the ground?
    • DOCKAUF55, on 10/10/2007, -9/+7Wow I sure am glad I bought a launch Xbox. Microsoft can go to hell.
      • aywwts4, on 10/10/2007, -5/+2To head off the eventual. "So since you bought it microsoft can't update their hardware" guy.

        The problem isn't the new board, its that they never should have shipped the old one to begin with! So take that, invisible aberration of my mind. Hah!
  • wageslaven, on 10/10/2007, -19/+7Its really not that important. The HDMI-enabled machines already have major revisions -- Motherboard Version 1.1 -- why isnt everyone obsessing over those?

    New layout, fewer components, smaller components, new mounting methodology for CPU and GPU;
    http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/inside_the_xbox_360_elite.htm



    • WhereAmI, on 10/10/2007, -11/+10But do they have a 65nm processor that uses less power and generates less heat?
      Even your link they are laughing at the revisions:
      "Take a look at the epoxy surrounding the CPU and GPU which is intended to prevent the BGA connection from popping as the board warps. This has to be one of the funniest things I have ever seen."
      • username9000, on 10/10/2007, -7/+6Who gives a ***** what holds it to the board? It works!!!!!!!!!!!!
        • Ajajadude, on 10/10/2007, -4/+8Until it doesn't.

          Remember, the 360 worked just fine...for a while, then we have this 3 year warranty for the RRoD
      • AwesomeMonster, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9"Take a look at the epoxy surrounding the CPU and GPU which is intended to prevent the BGA connection from popping as the board warps. This has to be one of the funniest things I have ever seen."
        This is about the nerdiest thing I have ever read.
        • WhereAmI, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1*Note: Not my words, it was in the link...
    • username9000, on 10/10/2007, -11/+6Thank you wageslaven. The first logical comment about this 65nm nonsense. Yes the 65nm requires less power and therefore may put out less heat, although that issue has already been solved with the additional heatsink that is on every new HDMI premium and elite, as well as any returned xbox's that died from RROD.
      People that are waiting for the 65nm to come out are going to miss out on the best fall console lineup ever on any console, period. Those games will still be there down the road of course, but there is no reason at all to not go out and get the hdmi enabled premium right now.
      • Ajajadude, on 10/10/2007, -7/+7For one thing, Microsoft (and the rest of you fanboys) kept thinking they had the issue "resolved" with the addition of more glue on the board. Yeah, that kept Microsoft from having to give everyone that extended warranty. Less power used and less heat generated, overall, is a good thing. So, why are even attempting to argue that the 65nm processor is a bad thing?

        People who are going to wait obviously aren't getting a hard-on over the upcoming fall releases, so why even bother throwing that out there for them? If they haven't had the urge to go out and buy a 360 or PS3 or Wii yet, then I think they'll be able to hold out a little longer.

        Me, I'm waiting for the 65nm processor to come out so I can take my 360 back to EB and use that replacement program nonsense I bought with it.
        • jamima69z, on 10/10/2007, -5/+4anyone who says the 360's 3rod problem has been "solved" by the extra heatsink or the glue (i'm sorry,but that's just some sad *****) doesn't know crap about what the problem was in the first place.

          i've got a 360,love many of the games,but lets just face facts,the 360 is constructed like a piece of crap.
          • knetworx, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2Hey, have you ever known Microsoft to put out a product that worked right without at least a few patches and/or service packs?
          • jostheller, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1"anyone who says the 360's 3rod problem has been "solved" by the extra heatsink or the glue (i'm sorry,but that's just some sad *****) doesn't know crap about what the problem was in the first place."

            Okay Mr expert I give... what was the problem in the first place? Speaking from my personal Hardware design experience, when IC's rise above the spec temp they are prone to missing timing which produces bit errors or glitches in the System. Typically you solve those problems by using a better cooling system such as better/larger heat sinks or better thermal paste. Now I am not a Microsoft 360 hardware engineer, so I don't know what the real reason is behind their RROD, but the symptoms do point to it being a heat issue. But apparently you have some inside information... So what is the real story behind RROD?
  • jacksons98, on 10/10/2007, -9/+19Only the CPU not the GPU is going 65nm??? It's the GPU thats been causing the RROD.
    From the article : "Also of note is that these new Falcon boards curiously do not include replacement 65nm ATI graphics processors,.."
    • Protoss, on 10/10/2007, -4/+19The heat generated by the CPU caused the GPU to separate, causing the RROD.
  • lesty420, on 10/10/2007, -15/+7...and the outdated HDMI standard
    • AwesomeMonster, on 10/10/2007, -9/+4You mean the hdmi which now comes available on all models for no extra cost? Or the hdmi that has been on the elite for half a year now?

      And what the ***** are you talking about hdmi being outdated?
      • nobiology, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11he just means the 360 has hdmi 1.2 instead of 1.3 i believe
      • faizal5k, on 10/10/2007, -5/+0just like nobiology said, the 360 doesn't come with the HDMI 1.3 specs like the PS3, but instead the 1.2 specs.
        • HappyScrappy, on 10/10/2007, -5/+3Beyond that, it can't even carry uncompressed audio over 1.2 (which 1.2a is capable of), nor can it do high bit rate DTS or DD, since it is only hooked up internally as a mirror to the optical out port.

          PS3 can do all these things.
          • knetworx, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Wii gaming in 480p FTW!

            ....no? Oh well, at least I saved a ***** of money, and I have Metroid Prime 3 and Super Smash Brothers Brawl coming out.
    • otatop, on 10/10/2007, -2/+14The main difference between HDMI 1.2 and 1.3 is that 1.3 can carry compressed Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams to be decoded by your receiver. If the Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams are uncompressed, any type of HDMI can carry it. So yeah, what a huuuuuuuuge disadvantage there.
      • HappyScrappy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Well, any type of HDMI 1.2(a) or later can theoretically carry it.

        Except that the Xbox 360 port isn't hooked up internally to allow this (confirmed by a MS person on AVS forum who worked on it). Instead, it just carries whatever goes out the optical port, which cannot carry Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, high bit rate DD or high bit rate DTS.

        So yeah, huuuuuuuuge disadvantage.

        http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=827835
      • onlyclave, on 10/10/2007, -5/+3And HDMI 1.3 supports 24, 36 and 48-bit deep color, Integrated system device control, automatic lip sync correction and support for a miniature plug for camcorders and digital cameras.
    • Namarrgon, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8Exactly. And the other differences, larger resolution and deep colour, aren't supported by any console either (both the PS3 and 360 GPUs only support 8 bits per channel framebuffers). So HDMI 1.3 is a marketing point that makes absolutely no difference to the final product.
  • agrabob, on 10/10/2007, -5/+37It's rather lame that console gamers are focusing on a die shrink to help with failing units. Usually this type of announcement is only watched by industry analysts and overclockers for PC CPU's.
    • totorototoro, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7Agreed in principle, but I think some of us care less for the details, and more for the fact that a new die shrink means hopefully a new motherboard design, or at least one thats been tested a bit more thoroughly before release. And a new motherboard design means hopefully they've addressed the Rings of Death problem more thoroughly than the bandaid fixes they've had to do with the original design.

      If the original Xbox360 didn't have such reliability issues, console gamers would not be as interested in these new 65nm versions being released. I'm hoping at least some of that 1 Billion dollars MS took a hit on last quarter went towards the redesign.
      • agrabob, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5it's not the motherboard design thats causing the failures from what I've read. It's poor thermal design.

        And with a new, smaller manufacturing process, the chips will put out less heat. Thus MS could keep the same designs and XBOX's would have better survival rates.
        • totorototoro, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8My point is, any new machine that Microsoft releases from now on will hopefully have better testing procedures/reliability than the original design they launched with, and that, as far as we know, are still being sold today. Maybe Microsoft has been tweaking the original design, who knows?

          Getting the 65nm designed Xbox360s are at least a guarantee you are getting a machine designed/released at least one quarter after MS admitted there were issues. To me, thats worth waiting for.
        • HappyScrappy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1No, the problem is chips are coming loose from the motherboard. Some say thermal warping of the board is contributing, but in the end, the problem isn't overheating, it's failure to design the board so that the chips would stay attached.
          • jostheller, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3You understand that thermal warping can be prevented with proper heat sinks and fans right? I do not have any first hands experience with the xbox360 PCB design, but from what I can gather it does sound that it not an issue with the logic design of the board but a problem with the thermal characteristics of the system. Basically don't fire the EE's but ask the ME's what Microsoft is paying them for.
      • wageslaven, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2The Motherboard _HAS_ Been redesigned; Motherboard Version 1.1 is the HDMI board.

        New layout, fewer components, smaller components, new mounting methodology for CPU and GPU; http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/inside_the_xbox_360_elite.htm
    • gwolf, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1You have a better idea, Let us hear it.
      • zeejay, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2I do: "Quality Assurance," or QA, for short. Look it up.

        When a product is properly QA'd, the manufacturing company doesn't later have to write down a patently obscene $1billion charge against earnings to fix defects. Not to mention the customers who end up suffering the consequences.
  • Me1000, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2Does IBM have 65nm chips?


    • dremspider, on 10/10/2007, -2/+0Yes, IBM is very strong with manufacturing in fact IBM helded AMD with their technology to shrink the die. IBM and Intel are both forefronts in chip manufacturing technology. AMD licenses most of these gains from IBM. This switch should have happened a year ago.
  • redxninja, on 10/10/2007, -9/+3Good. This will completely eliminate the red ring problem and shut everyone up.
    • Me1000, on 10/10/2007, -5/+8no it wont, and no it wont!
    • HerrEisenheim, on 10/10/2007, -5/+6No, it won't. In fact, it may make no difference at all. The POWER architecture does not experience the same returns to operating temperature reduction, from a shrink in process, as the x86 and x86-64 architectures do. This has been known for a long time.
      • wageslaven, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2What are you talking about? And how did you get +3? And, me1000 is wrong too.

        redxninja is *ALSO* wrong.

        The motherboard _has already_ been redesigned, and when MS announced the 3 Year Warranty, they told us that the redesign solves the reliability issues.

        Everything else, herreisenheim's POWER FUD, the senseless 65nm navel-gazing and the rest is pointless. It is FUD.

        Buy an Xbox 360 with an HDMI and you get the solution.
  • LordSlashstab55, on 10/10/2007, -8/+2when the 360 comes down to 100 usds i'm all in!
    • potterboy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3I'd wait for the Xbox to reach that first.
  • steffinb, on 10/10/2007, -13/+7Sweet. All my patient waiting has paid off.

    Now I can get the Premium edition w/ HDMI output and 65nm chipset and the extra heatsink all while paying $50 less than the early adopters.

    Buying launch consoles is for life n00bs.
    • steffinb, on 10/10/2007, -4/+4Just in time for Halo 3 and GTA 4 I might add...
    • superpatty, on 10/10/2007, -3/+18yeah, paying that extra $50 so that I could play it for two years before you seems like such a waste of money

      /sarcasm
  • Rev0lver, on 10/10/2007, -3/+14...Just as PCs are moving on to 45nm processor cores.
  • soot, on 10/10/2007, -12/+5This is gay, I'm going outside.
    • fallenone05, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4there are far more gays outside! don't do it!
  • HerrEisenheim, on 10/10/2007, -6/+29I don't see why anyone cares. Don't expect 65nm Xbox 360s to run substantially cooler than their 90nm counterparts. The real advantage is a cost savings, for Microsoft, in terms of per unit costs.

    The POWER architecture does not respond the same way that x86 and x86-64 do to a die shrink. This has been known for a while. Apple struggled with this for years. IBM would say, "Just wait for a die shrink. We'll have a PowerPC 970 chip you can put it a notebook, no problem." It never happened. Every die shrink only resulted in a few degrees heat/power savings.

    Don't expect your Xbox 360s to run 20 degrees cooler. It isn't going to happen. Five if you are lucky.
    • steffinb, on 10/10/2007, -1/+10The extra heatsink helps
      • HerrEisenheim, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8Sure it does, but that has nothing to do with 65nm. You can get the new heatsink now.
    • iofthestorm, on 10/10/2007, -6/+11Why are people digging him down when he brings the only shred of rationality to this entire comment page?

      (When I dugg him up he was at 0).
      • wageslaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Because you have missed the _real_ point of this discussion (and Im blue in the fingers from re-typing it), the NM reduction is not the solutoin to the heat issue.

        The HDMI enabled motherboard _ALREADY_ has the heat solution implemented. When they made the 3 year warranty announcment, they said:

        "Having identified a number of factors which can cause general hardware failures...Microsoft has made improvements to the console and is enhancing its Xbox 360 warranty policy for existing and new customers."

        Get it? Version 1.1 of the motherboard is the heat-solution, the nm reduction is irrelevant.
    • DevinOlsen, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1I think the noise is going to be the only real noticeable change..
  • Nick7, on 10/10/2007, -3/+8until i get a date as to when i can get a 360 with the 65 nm processor, this means nothing to me
  • HRF1, on 10/10/2007, -5/+5I sure hope the failure rates on those updated hardware drop significantly. If they do, it's finally time for me to invest in a 360. If it doesn't, I'll be skipping the 360 forever.
    • bulgingbritches, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8With all the positives the 360 has going for it, the failure rate should be the last factor holding you back. With the new cooling scheme, die shrink, HDMI addition, $50 reduction, and 3yr warranty, there should be little worries. I simply play the ***** outta mine with the notion if it breaks, I'm going to get a better revision. At least I'm enjoying great games instead of worrying about the possibilities of failure.
      • Phocas, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Amen!! I have a revision with the new heat-sink and I have had ZERO problems. Ill keep playing while they sit on the sidelines.
  • carl25, on 10/10/2007, -11/+2still a dumb move

    It's a goddamn ati card, they generate a LOT of heat. But aren't they changing the type of heatsink on both ? Or rather the cooling system ?
  • jdaniel284, on 10/10/2007, -12/+6More RROD coming to a 360 near you.
  • Scaryclouds, on 10/10/2007, -6/+7My 30 just RRODed on me, I'm wondering if they actually fix the 360 or just fix it. If they replace it, I'm almost tempted to just wait till the HDMI 65nm versions come out.
    • DarkCovers, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5"I'm wondering if they actually fix the 360 or just fix it." Teehee :)

      ...sorry all 30 of your 360's RROD.
    • daveisfera, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2My 360 just died after almost a year and they ended up just replacing the entire unit with a new one last week. Sadly, it was one of the core editions so no HDMI port for me.
    • HappyScrappy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3When you return your broken 360, MS repairs it or replaces it. If they replace it, they replace it with a refurbished unit, which is a returned unit that has been repaired. So basically, you're getting a unit that was sent in 2-3 weeks earlier by someone else and has been repaired.

      As such, you're likely never get a unit back that is one of the new ones, because MS has a near unlimited supply of the old ones being sent to them. So you're unlikely to send in your unit that doesn't have HDMI and get one with HDMI back.
  • stillmitch, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Is the 3 year warranty good on a new 360 bought now? I don't want to wait a few months for the 65nm to be in stores.
    • SSCrow, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7yes.
    • NSMike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4The warranty is good for all 360's from the purchase date.
    • fallenone05, on 10/10/2007, -1/+33 year on red rings of death only, don't forget that.
  • cheeze69, on 10/10/2007, -5/+3I just hope they get a cool, quiet version out before my WorstBuy 3 year extended warranty exchange plan expires. I expect that my 360 will probably break by then and I'll have to get the new, improved model.
  • terrenceisdaman, on 10/10/2007, -3/+4How do i tell the difference on the external packaging?
    • afx1, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3the 65nm version has a big sticker that says "buy me!". RTFA.
      • cultist667, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You will play the price is right minigames at the store and the good xbox 360 is under one of the three boxes. Good luck!
  • paranoid614, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1soooo are the 65nms are being shipped right now or are they still waiting for the 90nms to clear out. I found the article a little vague.
    • HappyScrappy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6The article says that likely there are 65nm Xbox 360s in this world. But MS isn't putting them in the channel yet, instead they are clearing out the 90nm units they haven't managed to sell through yet due to low sales through this year so far.

      Some day you'll be able to buy one with a 65nm CPU, but no one knows when yet.
  • SpaceNinjaDino, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Once the GPU is also 65mn, I will purchase an Elite and make my launch 360 a secondary station for system link.
    • cultist667, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1MS thanks you for throwing money at them at every turn buying multiplemachines. You are their ideal fanboi customer.
  • knetworx, on 10/10/2007, -6/+4I already beat Bioshock, and the next 360 game I'm looking forward to is Halo 3. Until then, I will have Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii to keep me busy. Don't put all your eggs in one basket (or console). Learn to appreciate the strengths of different consoles. Then we can stop the hateful "fanboy" comments, and we can all become mature together.
  • wilsonthecat, on 10/10/2007, -6/+2But will the XBOX 360 still sound like a Hoover when you play DVDs?
  • Nextrix, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4too late.
  • thedraft, on 10/10/2007, -3/+4I was also wary of purchasing an X360 because of the reliability issues. It had more than enough games that interested me, and while the price was still a little steep, the major roadblock for me was the RROD stuff (the loudness also didn't help.)

    However, I just picked up a Premium bundle yesterday, as I'm reasonably happy with the changes to the very latest batch of units. For those unaware, MS has recently "upgraded" the Premium version with the HDMI port that the Elites already come with. Along with that addition, the new units have an extra heatsink which should help with (dare I say, prevent?) the RROD issue, and a quieter DVD drive.

    The new Premiums are fairly recent, and a lot of stores don't have them yet. You can tell its a new one by looking at the box. In the field where it lists the box's contents (X360 system, wireless controller, 20gb HDD, etc. etc.) it will also have "HDMI Enabled."

    FWIW, I don't think waiting for the 65nm revision makes much sense. The RROD issue is caused by the GPU, not the CPU. Obviously a smaller CPU will help with the overall system temp, but a system that's going to red ring is going to do it regardless of how big the CPU die is. The second heatsink should have a much more dramatic effect on system temps and reliability than a die shrink ever could.

    PS- Bioshock is *****.
    • wageslaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2If you get the HDMI Premium, then you got Motherboard Version 1.1 -- it includes the solution to the heat issues.
    • vawksel, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1While I think you need to knock it the ***** off with the "it is *****" phrase, it sounds ridiculous, I do think BioShock is "fckin amazing".

      It's gotten me back into FPS gaming. I was on hiatus from it all since finishing Half Life 2. Now Im wanting to try others, like CoD2 or Oblivion, but Why the ***** isn't Oblivion cheaper, its still $59.95!!
  • gage006, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2More importantly, will it still have that gigantic power brick?
  • vawksel, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Who cares.

    You play the same damn games. It not like this CPU is clocked higher. The only important ordeal is the Motherboard Version 1.1, which is HDMI enabled for those who give a ***** (not me), and more importantly has the new cooling solution to prevent the red ring of fire.
  • cultist667, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1I still think the newer models will melt like the old ones I won't buy it until it gets a total redesign.
  • thefilmguy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Well I was supposed to get an Elite for my birthday, which was yesterday, but I told the people that were buying it they should wait until the over heating issues and RROD where solved. I don't want to have my new Xbox 360 for a short period of time and then have it fail. Even with the 3 yr. warranty. 1 out 3 having problems isn't very good odds.
  • CarzorStelatis, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Sure the 360 has reliability problems. The recent MS warranty change has solved them. Just play it as often as you like and if it RRODs, you get it fixed/replaced.

    If you really want a tip to avoid RRODs on the first place, store it horizontally. There are no studies showing whether vertical or horizontal is best (and yes, the console was 'designed' for both) but there's a socking great air intake on the right hand side which (if you have your 360 vertically) will be covered up by carpet/desk/whatever. Covered up air intakes are NOT good for heat problems :P
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