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Grand Theft . . . Angel?

destructoid.com — Rockstar's flagship title has been called a lot of things by a lot of people - but does the latest installment of this "murder simulator" actually have something morally meaningful to say about the grittier side of urban life?

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  • rjc5056, on 05/07/2008, -2/+93Great read. The first time I noticed one of my "killed" adversaries getting up and stumbling away I unloaded a clip into him in the interest of self preservation. After a while, I really couldn't do anything but let the survivors get away with their tails between their legs. As Pegorino's wife comment's "Who you gonna kill today? Hopefully some guy with a nice young family who will miss him very much." Kudos to the developers for getting into my head so well.

    Also, does anyone feel for Dwayne as much as I do?
    • Dan11023, on 05/07/2008, -1/+18Dwayne is the MAN! Playboy is a BU$TA IMO
    • SpoonMachine, on 05/07/2008, -6/+19-------HERE BE SPOILERS--------













      Watching Niko kill Dwayne made me wish I had picked the other guy. I felt genuinely sad. It's the kind of thing you don't see in video games too often. Also, I'm a pussy.
      • TiMMY8765, on 05/07/2008, -0/+16yeah man you should have killed playboy, you get his apartment
        • Soup4Brains, on 05/07/2008, -1/+7And the outfit from GTA3 in his closet!
      • dfsjdkflasjk, on 05/07/2008, -0/+16I killed Dwayne also and wished I hadn't. The cellphone call from the ***** Playboy X made it even worse.
        • Anpheus, on 05/07/2008, -0/+3If two people asked me to kill the other, I always chose to kill the person who backstabbed first. Playboy was a ***** ***** who was going to betray Dwayne, and Dwayne got wind of it and realized it was kill or be killed. Same with the McReary's.

          I hated having to make the choice, and it pisses me off reading about the choice between the two characters at the end (I won't ruin that in this thread) via the "Revenge" or "Deal" mission.
        • Remmiz, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2Same here man. At least I think I made the correct choice with the McRearys. Also, did anyone let either of the first two people live? I killed the first guy but let the girl live.
          • bashar129, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Same, killed the first guy, let the girl live..but in my defense on the girl, I hastily got on the bike and chased the guy that fled without reading that I had the option of executing the girl or letting her live. And also, in the case of Dwayne, I had planned on killing him just because he seemed like he would be easier to take down than playboy, but I had a sudden change of heart on the way to his apartment for some reason, so I just killed Playboy.
          • diggnitarial, on 05/09/2008, -0/+1I felt like ***** after I killed Dwayne... And then Playboy X was such a dick about it! ***** you Playboy, you're the one who told me to kill him! Piece of *****, I want to kill him now too...
    • NegativeS, on 05/07/2008, -2/+5After hearing what Dwayne says when you first come in to kill him and then having Playboy tell you he'd kill you if you came around because Dwayne was like a father to him...yeah I felt like a giant ***** ass wipe for killing him. Honestly though I think if it had been the other way around (don't know haven't started a second game yet) you would either have to kill him anyway or Dwayne would say something along the lines of "GTFO before I kill you he was like a brother to me."

      This article was a pretty damn good read and sums up everything I would have to say about the game. Kudos to Jim Sterling on a great article.
      • ChanChan88, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Spoilers

        Not only only did I care and had sympathy for Dwayne, but NIko even liked him. He even said, "you remind me of myself" to Dwayne. The guy had a harsh life, and to make things worse, people backstabbed and abandoned him.

        And I remember that other mission where I had a choice to kill this one guy that Francis told me about. And right where I almost shot him, I remember what Francis said a long time ago, that everyone is bad or something, but we all deserve a second chance.. something like that. So I just walked away. I felt good inside :)
    • ryan926, on 05/07/2008, -0/+23I popped a cap in Playboy's ass. Dwayne is the real *****. :)
      • Velirno, on 05/07/2008, -0/+5I felt bad from Dwayne as soon as I met him, got a friend out of that sympathy now :P
        • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+3Yeah I didn't mind Playboy at first, didn't feel as much of a poser like the guy from the community center..

          but then when Dwayne showed up, i kind of felt bad for him.. and even though he sounded like a real bad ass he seemed a lot more "genuine", doing his missions and then hearing them talk and "You remind me of myself".. and its true.. and then, he says he's too old now for all that etc... I think that's what made me decide to get Playboy

          Also when Playboy first talks about it, and you can tell he's about to ask about getting rid of him, already there I felt bad and wanted to say NO but it was a cut-scene.. but then I was proud when Niko said "But I DONT'T want to kill him"...
          • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1*SPOILER* .. the stupid edit ended before i could save
      • Rooster99, on 05/07/2008, -2/+11***** SPOILERS PEOPLE!!!!! CHRIST!
      • dontaskagain, on 05/07/2008, -0/+5Yea but Dwayne does turn into that girl you get with out of sympathy at a party, then she wont stop calling you..
        Damit Dwayne, give me some space, i don't want to go bowling and don't guilt trip me about it...
        • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+7Dwayne never calls me.. Brucie is the one who always freaking calls me JUST when i made plans with others..
          • bashar129, on 05/07/2008, -0/+3Is it just me or does Brucie remind anyone of FPS doug?
    • Oatig, on 05/07/2008, -2/+14I ended up killing Dwayne because, though I felt more sorry for him, he seemed to be more of a bitch about the whole thing. I mostly killed him because of the line from Playboy that was something along the lines of "I offered him tons of money and half my business ventures" which told me Dwayne was stuck way too much in the past. I hated that I had to do either of them, and kept yelling "Just stop being friends and go your separate ways!"

      The worst part of the whole thing in my opinion, and I don't know if anyone else had this since it wasn't mentioned, but after I killed him I checked my email and there was an email from Dwayne trying to be my friend because he didn't really have any. I stopped playing for several hours after that.
      • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1***SPOILER***

        Even though Dwayne did kind of complain at first, and it wasn't really Playboy's fault, Playboy was just acting cocky.. I just thought to myself.. we need more "old school hands-on" guys like Dwayne, like any mafia themed games/movies, they get things done.. like me.

        Although I thought that Playboy would probably have more to offer, money and such.. it was about respect.. Playboy was just money hungry and willing to get rid of his buddy that just got here.. first one to back stab.. I figured he'll do the same to me like Dimitrii

        The text message from Dwayne really does hit you.. but that's also when I knew I'd made the right decision..
    • fcruz1331, on 05/07/2008, -3/+1I decided to kill Dwayne based on who i felt could help me the most. Playboy had alotta cash and was on the rise up, as opposed to Dwayne who was spiraling into a pit of depression. I still felt bad killing Dwayne, and i haven't hear from Playboy since. Go figure.
      • alilhappything, on 05/07/2008, -2/+5Dwayne just calls me to go on dates. But you get Playboys apartment if you kill him. I want them both dead.
        • dfsjdkflasjk, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2Do you get to come into the apartment after the date?
    • TecK415, on 05/07/2008, -0/+8Yes! ***** Playboy, I shot him in the face. haha
    • UCFartstudntJON, on 05/07/2008, -0/+3I am torn because i read about getting Playboys house when you kill him. I don't know who I would have chosen if it wasn't for the perk, then again playboy was a shady douche bag.
    • Hoogs, on 05/07/2008, -2/+2I really regret killing Dwayne, but in order to go back and kill Playboy instead I would've had to load my game and erase all the work I'd done that whole day (9 hours worth). To this day, I still feel genuinely remorseful for killing Dwayne. And what made it worse is that after he was dead, and Playboy had abandoned me, I went to check my email and saw a message from Dwayne saying he was my best buddy and we should hang out more. It just tore my heart out, even though it's only a game.
    • Danhrules, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1The hardest decision is for the guy you've been seeking revenge on (not Dimitri). I actually felt real guilt after killing him, and spent at least the next 5 minutes just driving round the city slowly, going over it in my head.
      It was weird, and I would love to shake the hand of everyone who helped create this game for having actually create a real bond (of sorts) between you and Niko, which was never done in past games. Awesome :)
    • Drehmini, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1My choice was based on the newspaper via TW@. After reading about the Triangle shooting, I realized that Dwayne was an out of control psycho.

      Although, I very much dislike Playboy X anyways.
    • TheBlackLotus, on 05/07/2008, -0/+0I killed dwayne and got 25 grand.. how much do u get for killing playboy..?
      • ryan926, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1you get his apartment as a safe house.
    • SurgicalMassacr, on 05/10/2008, -0/+0nah homie i murked Dwayne instead of Playboy. i mean what u get from Dwayne at least Playboy gave u a new phone
  • haxr, on 05/07/2008, -5/+30A definite must-read for all people interested in the social aspects of videogames. The first time I hit someone with a baseball bat in GTA IV I had to leave the game for a while because it was just too gruesome and the sound effects were too realistic. I think the game communicates a lot in how people who play it reflect on it. Anyone who thinks that gamers mindlessly emulate their characters are well on their way to outlawing movies and books as well.

    I thought Dwayne was kind of a whiner, but I appreciated Niko's relationship with him.
    • Necho, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2I agree. Many of the most popular and interesting pieces of art, movies, music, video games will be open for interpretation. Outlawing video games because some one or some group doesn't agree with whatever message they pull out of them is outlawing art itself
      • benecere, on 05/07/2008, -2/+1Sure, sure, but you gotta be careful, you know. I mean, what's going to happen after hundreds of thousands read "Crime and Punishment" ? They'll all want to be Raskolnikov and then they'll go around murdering old women; just give it a little time.

        I guess first we'll have to do something about that thing whereby most American kids can't read .... but STILL
    • volacide, on 05/07/2008, -0/+11I keep seeing people say they had to leave their game after the first time they have done something in GTA4 that was particularly gruesome on Digg. Are you guys actually serious or just exaggerating to get your point across? You had to leave the game because you couldn't cope with a polygonal character being smacked with a baseball bat and some convincing sound effects?

      I mean I understand what you're saying, but there's a point where it shouldn't make you so psychologically disturbed that you have to stop playing it. It *almost* makes it seem as though you're one of those people that has the trouble of distinguishing these games from real life. Which are exactly the kind of people that make players of GTA look bad.

      I love the fact that GTA4 is much more mature in the way that the characters seem way more human and morally focused. Particularly Niko, it's cool to see him feel bad about the things he does or has done and have trouble making tough decisions.
      • Glitchwerks, on 05/07/2008, -0/+0Well, Call of Duty 4 had that effect at 2 very distinct points in the game.
      • soppinglemon, on 05/07/2008, -2/+1very good point volacide, if people cant stand the realistic effects of a violent game thent dont buy it because you make us gamers look bad
      • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2I agree.. I was looking at my stats last night and noticed that I had run over 250 citizens.. and was thinking, damn, that much already? I mean I don't run over pedestrians on purpose but I also don't feel bad when they jump in front of the car roll over my hood and catapult into the air.. this to me is just like Flat Out.. characters flying in the air = fun.

        Some things like violence, has been in every game and i've played all other GTAs. So it wasn't a surprise that hitting someone with a baseball bat was gonna hurt.. I never use the bat though.

        But like volacide mentioned, if you really have to stop playing and take a break, you need to understand that it is a game.. Just like SAW is a movie.. I can still say that I have felt pretty disgusted by SAW movies.. those are extreme though. Like you said, its nice that Niko feels bad about stuff and its not really his "favorite life".. I remember a review saying that Niko apologized too much.. I think that's fine.. i'd rather have that then lets say, the main character of Manhunt..
    • MaddieCakes, on 05/07/2008, -1/+2My fiance plays GTA4 all the time, but nothing he does in the game seems to bother him. Should I be worried? lol
    • Atomic05, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2It wasn't the sound effects or the digital violence that would make me sit back and consider what I was doing. It was usually when I had to make a choice about offing someone. Sure, in gunfights I'd usually let people get up and lurch away without finishing them off, but the points in the game where you're forced to make a decision between two people or against blasting a target that didn't have to die... It always came down to character. I didn't feel motivated to choose on the reward alone but instead on who was the better person or what was the right thing to do; on what my own morals dictated as the better choice.

      Of course the person you kill has minimal effect on the way the game ends, even though the story will obviously vary a bit. The thing is, that means the choice you make reflects back upon you more than it will ever reflect on the game itself, and that's what makes it so... what's the word I'm looking for... Difficult? Introspective? Regardless, it's stuff like character and depth of story, more so than the dirty jokes, prostitutes and random violence, which make this game one of the best I've ever played.
  • Scott31182, on 05/07/2008, -2/+26Agreed, this is definitely a good read
    • TheWorm, on 05/07/2008, -0/+4Destructoid gets a lot of *****, but I think they have some of the most interesting and well written videogame articles.
    • Braxo, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Areed.

      A lot of work went into writing that article, the least I could do was give it a quick digg.
  • NaziHatinChimp, on 05/07/2008, -1/+9I really want to write an essay on this game much like the one I had to write on "Death of a Salesman" for a college class.
    • stellamaris, on 05/07/2008, -1/+7Do it. There's nothing stopping you.
    • jaytea90, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Varying degrees of want until i see your "Death of a Salesman" essay
  • soupdawg30, on 05/07/2008, -2/+36I don't know what version of the game this writer was playing but when I picked up a prostitue she was not silent and she deffinintly left money behind when I killed her.
    • TheDarkstarter, on 05/07/2008, -1/+14oh wait, never mind, that was in real life.
    • silverbulletky, on 05/07/2008, -1/+1And it made me horny
  • SevenTwo, on 05/07/2008, -2/+36Genetically superior bro'.
    • aceakm, on 05/07/2008, -1/+6"Babe, someone's here to see you."
      "I"M WORKING OUT!"
      *Niko walks in*
      "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME IT WAS NIKO, WHY?!"

      HAHAHA
    • nymphetamine, on 05/07/2008, -4/+1God how I hate people who say 'bro'. I guess that's why I don't hang out with Brucie much.
      • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1I love it when he calls me screaming "HEY NICKI !!"

        I've met people like that in real life and they are a bit annoying, the attention grabbers that scream everywhere they go... but he's a cool guy in the end though.. he's always happy it seems, always willing to do something..
    • aceakm, on 05/07/2008, -0/+5Haha Brucie is so funny.
  • ralphthemagi, on 05/07/2008, -1/+53I just play GTA so when I go to NYC I know how to lose NYPD aggro.
    • Shootfast, on 05/07/2008, -12/+1You know it's not a true mapping of the city right? Just a kind of appropriation.
      • aceakm, on 05/07/2008, -1/+6You know he's kidding, right?
      • ralphthemagi, on 05/07/2008, -1/+33Yeah, but the rocket launcher is in the same place.
      • JudgeMonkey, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Yeah, the map is a little off, but the general idea that getting a few yards away from a murder scene makes you a free man is still very true....
    • UtopiaInTheSky, on 05/07/2008, -1/+14First time I've ever heard a GTA wanted level being referred to as "aggro".
      • ralphthemagi, on 05/07/2008, -4/+8Is it not the same? Can MMORPG and GTA gamers not live in harmony? If you run into a mob, will it not aggro? If you beat the ***** out of a hoooker in front of a cop, will he not aggro-essively try to arrest you?

        May the pixels be with you. Always.
    • mattsegal, on 05/07/2008, -1/+1thats because you are a noob
  • fitzfan, on 05/07/2008, -5/+25I thought it said...Grand Theft Anal, which is a great film by the way...not that ive seen it.
  • Illuminati, on 05/07/2008, -23/+2TL:DR
    • V2012, on 05/07/2008, -0/+6You missed out then. This is NOT a long article.
    • Trykt, on 05/07/2008, -1/+3Thanks for posting that you're an illiterate *****.
      • Illuminati, on 05/07/2008, -3/+1Hah, your right, because thats exactly why I come to digg everyday, to exude the fact that I'm an illiterate *****.
  • OfNumbers, on 05/07/2008, -0/+4And when I'm done with a hooker, this is how I get my money back -
  • Dan11023, on 05/07/2008, -7/+32Niko is a Angel, all he does is kill assholes N cops, the cops in that game have too much power! they start shooting if you resist arrest wtf. They should tazer Niko instead... just picture Niko saying "DONT TAZE ME BRO!"
  • shiv68, on 05/07/2008, -0/+38
    I went on a killing spree then I cried afterwards.
  • JoshuaLowe, on 05/07/2008, -1/+21If you play through the single player campaign you'll see there's a more compelling story than in either GTA3 or Vice City. Niko doesn't approach the things he has to do to survive lightly, and his past weighs on him.
  • InstantRamen, on 05/07/2008, -11/+5Seacrest Out
  • pradaaddict, on 05/07/2008, -1/+34I have to agree. GTAIV does anything but glamorize crime and murder
    • mal1964, on 05/07/2008, -7/+2Is that why you bought it?
      • SpoonMachine, on 05/07/2008, -1/+2For that and the hookers.
      • pradaaddict, on 05/07/2008, -0/+15i bought it because the game is incredibly well done and fun to play.
        • mal1964, on 05/07/2008, -2/+2OK, Cool thanks for your reply. Peace
        • dr3minem, on 05/07/2008, -0/+0are you serious or are you just being an ***** trying to be funny?
          I really can't tell
    • actionscripted, on 05/07/2008, -0/+6I bought it because I was pretty sure it was going to be one of the best games ever.
    • shirosamurai, on 05/07/2008, -0/+5Not only that, but GTA IV is less violent than GTA III (and the spinoffs). Yes, the violence in IV sounds and looks a lot more realistic, but don't forget that in GTA III you could take a ***** chainsaw and slice a cop right down the middle of his body. You could take a katana and slice a person's head clean off. When you got a headshot with a sniper rifle, their head would be GONE and blood would be spurting out their neck like a fountain. None of that is in GTA IV. If you shoot someone in the head in GTA IV, they just fall over dead, and there's no chainsaws or katanas - the worst you can do with melee is shank someone with a little knife.
    • Haroshia, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1*SPOILER WARNING. SPOILERS MAKE CARS MORE AERODYNAMIC. ALSO THE BELOW COMMENT CONTAINS SPOILERS*





      The part that really moved me was with Ray or Roy or whatever his name was...the mafia guy...and he's talking to the woman he likes who's coming down off of Meth. It hit me that for once in a game they're showing the definite downside of serious drug abuse. Even Little Jacob, with his weed habit, talks about how if you smoke too much you can get a little paranoid, and I'd agree weed is basically harmless except in that context.
  • mal1964, on 05/07/2008, -8/+5As long as it doesn't interfere with my killing, I don't care what the message might be.
  • Hetman, on 05/07/2008, -1/+7It is great and so is the story. "To do this a man has no soul" I have not finished the game but this is prevalent in many movies. I dunno if he redeems himself or not. But the point is that the story is good, and it is one of the main archetypes of characters you see through out literature. Can a man redeem himself after he has done such horrible acts?
    • mal1964, on 05/07/2008, -1/+1If he can figure out what triggered his anger to do such horrible acts, And where the anger came from. Its usually stuffed deep inside of you, And very difficult to recall or find without professional help.
    • Hetman, on 05/07/2008, -1/+1Probably true, but I was talking about the story telling part. In all boks, movie lite etc. One of the main stories told is if a man can redeem himself out of horrible acts.
    • mal1964, on 05/07/2008, -0/+4LOL! I got a bit deep there, I'll get off my soap-box now.
  • stiffman88, on 05/07/2008, -32/+0awesome read and an awesome game. i have been using the cheats for gta 4 over at http://www.squidoo.com/grandtheftauto4cheats to help me finish it quicker
    • Dumbledorito, on 05/07/2008, -1/+18Why do you play games at all if you're going to cheat and speed through it? Just rent "Gone in 60 Seconds" and "Scarface" instead.
    • JudgeMonkey, on 05/07/2008, -0/+4First off, it's none of anyone's business what someone does in single player. Second, he is just spamming.
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2I actually stopped playing the story mode for multiplayer because i felt it was going to fast.. I don't want it to end soon.
    • RickyBennett, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2only time i use cheats is when im just dicking around in the game and when i want to play the game i will just reload it from the last saved point

      if you cheat to beat the game then you dont really beat the game at all
  • aceakm, on 05/07/2008, -1/+4I was young...and I was very angry...
  • Dumbledorito, on 05/07/2008, -1/+15So far, I've played without mass vehicular homicide, car-jacking anyone (I do swipe parked vehicles, natch) or using hookers for health gain. So far everyone Niko has shot has been scum, but Niko's working for scum, so... moral dilemma? Maybe.

    That said, I have to wonder at one mechanic: I can be given a mission to walk into a drug dealer's apartment, mow down everyone in sight with a hail of gunfire, and nobody bats an eye. But then I fire one shot at a door (on, like, the 7th floor of a tenement), hoping it'll open, and every cop and their mother shows up to investigate. WTF?

    Also, nobody seems to comment on the condition of the car you're driving, even when it's (a) messed up to the point that smoke is emitting from every polygon and (2) it's their car, which they loaned to you.
    • rjc5056, on 05/07/2008, -0/+8All the supporting cast I've driven with will bitch me out if I run into things... An approximation of something Little Jacob says: "Easy, mon! I an I be feelz pon de car sick, bredren."
      • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+3Yeah you don't even need to crash into things either.. if im flying down the bridge with a fast car, roman and jacob will tell me to chill out, they're not in a hurry or something along those lines..
  • hempydave, on 05/07/2008, -2/+5killing spree token FTW
    GTA 2 was dah shiz
    • V2012, on 05/07/2008, -0/+10GTA3 had those too, don't forget. THOSE were fun.
      Burn 45 people with this bottomless flamethrower? YES!
    • Zipko, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2It was always a great achievement to run down the whole line of joggers in GTA 1. I forget what they called it when you do.
    • dpcamp, on 05/07/2008, -0/+3i definitely miss the days of running over the straight line of runners in GTA 1 and getting substantially rewarded!
  • pjrbx75, on 05/07/2008, -12/+2"However, GTA IV does not glamorize or applaud violence even half as much as people think it does."

    exaggeration. i suppose people buy the game because it's so frustrating. so they made the consequences of killing and breaking the law more realistic... the game is still about making blood money and avoiding the law, no matter how you defend its morality.

    i know people won't agree with me, but i don't think this article was backed up too well. people just agree with it because the game is sick.
    • Hetman, on 05/07/2008, -1/+4I agree with you. But also scare face does not glamorize violence. In the end his best friend, sister, and himself dies. But people still use it to glamorize violence and drug dealing. It is in the eye of the beholder.
      • pjrbx75, on 05/07/2008, -3/+0well, the game seems to be capitalizing off of the people who are in it for the thrill of violence, so..
    • pradaaddict, on 05/07/2008, -0/+7yes killing people for money is the focus of the game but it does not make that life look attractive and thats the authors argument. you completely missed the point
      • pjrbx75, on 05/07/2008, -8/+0of course the game makes that life looks attractive! that's why people play it. why would you play a game, for instance, that's about something you find unattractive. like filling out forms.
        • pradaaddict, on 05/07/2008, -0/+7sorry let me clarify seeing as how you are really stupid. it does not make it look attractive in the way that someone would want to imitate the game in real life like these ***** on CNN and Fox want you to think
    • V2012, on 05/07/2008, -0/+6No, sorry, that's bullocks. Nobody's saying the game doesn't involve blood money, but if you don't think the GTA series is not brilliant social commentary IN ADDITION to being the best murder simulator out there, you're sorely mistaken, and you've either never played a GTA game before or you somehow can't understand satire.
      • pjrbx75, on 05/07/2008, -4/+1"a" GTA game? in what way were the other games brilliant social commentary?

        this game is deeper than most "murder sims," yes. but to say that it's not glamorizing such behavior? *that's* bullocks.
      • Firgof, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Dugg down for 'murder simulators' remark. Either find a more accurate and less idiotic subject/verb relationship or look objectively at the entire Action genre of the movie industry. Hell, look at the whole of our society. Delve deep into the 'macho' complex. Perhaps even investigate what the game designers have said about their games instead of the soundbytes the press feeds you. But whatever you do, stop looking like an ignorant buffoon who can only parrot the words of others with weak interpretation; more importantly, though, stop giving GTA special treatment. If you're going to be harsh on something then don't you dare cherry-coat any roads near it.

        And 'bollocks' to those who do not even -attempt- to analyze something, instead immediately leaping to conclusions based off of flawed premises and even more flawed bias. Do not claim yourself a neutral or thoughtful man after that last post. Instead, why not explain to us what the game -could have- done to not glamorize such behavior ... in the confines of 'this game will allow the player access to weaponry, vehicles which are driving about, and will, at all times, allow the player to interact however or with whatever in his or her environment the player chooses to interact with. And it will be a grizzly satire of the current world with the gloves off and the knuckles on.'

        Do that, and I may change my opinion of you and your ilk.
  • N3M3515, on 05/07/2008, -0/+7I think this article hits on some very key issues, the game entrenches the player into a much more realistic environment, and you have greater ties to the characters and care about them much more then previous versions. This by far is one of the few games that lives up to the hype.
  • SifooD, on 05/07/2008, -0/+9Great article. Unfortunately, those who fight against this game could care less about these explanations. All they care about is getting the game banned.
  • VinnieDaMac, on 05/07/2008, -1/+16Preaching to the choir. People who criticize GTA are people who will, more than likely, NEVER even play the game. In fact, these people probably don't even care what's in the game, they just want some airtime and publicity.
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1The kind that would not even care to know what is in the game if you offered to show them.. these people believe what they want to believe (which for a lot, is what they heard on Fox...)
  • calderon0311, on 05/07/2008, -2/+3From all the GTA games, I honestly loved GTA: SA up until now. Rockstar has the class for graceful Underworld stories, and GTA4 continues a series of redemption that Vice and San Andra started.

    Until now, GTA was a sandbox with an additional story behind it, but it's funny to see how much time is really spent on Niko. There is a sandbox still, but the faux-Boondock Saints story is what the series needed to get more players to stop playing with the physic engine and actually become the character.

    SA and Vice did this as well, but they had issues that had to be over come and made the characters a bit more remote to people. In the case of vice, the character's story would conflict with my choice of actions as terror would be a perfect option for him. In SA, the character had to go though a rigorous trial by fire before he can return home for redemption.

    Niko's back-story is important, but provides a greater choice as far as a war-torn mind on the brink of sanity is viewed. There's less opportunity for mindless killing, but it does add a bitter-sweetness for inflicting an execution to some rival that deserved it.
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2It also makes fun of a lot of critics.. I think having Niko as a guy that fought a war makes him more "justified" in a way.. Not really but like "look what you're doing to our citizens.. our soldiers.." I mean they have cartoons about space republican americans killing innocent aliens they can't understand (because they don't speak redneck..) I think a lot of the satire is what makes it even more obvious. They are laughing at the situation in general.. laughing at the critics that talk bad about the game and then shows the other side of the fence where its news outlets that glamorizes violence.. REAL violence.. not just a story with violence in it.
  • tsfn46290, on 05/07/2008, -1/+6I don't know if i agree...i found a few diferent more subtle messages. If you get killed, you retain all your guns, where as if surrender to teh police all of your weapons are gone. The result was that I ended up in a lot more shoot outs to avoid getting busted then I otherwise would have.

    Additionally, **small spoiler warning** The message at the end with the multiple story endings seems to be that revenge/vegenece is the best path.
  • daizaru, on 05/07/2008, -6/+1I think the dating isn't really a plus, you are dating 3 women at the same time and technically using them for the abilities they give you. The dialogue is probably the worst part of it all. The one genuine relationship in the game seems forced and unnatural.

    I usually go for headshots and pretty much end up killing everyone despite the fact you can let them live if you did all body shots, One thing I've found unsettling is killings waves and waves of cops is something I didn't remember from previous games. You get in situations where it's impossible to just run and you fight your way out slaughtering like 30 cops on the way out.

    The game is what it is, it's not meant to be 'angelic' and there really aren't that many positives. I don't even try to defend it to others, just be honest and say that it's mindless entertainment mostly killing other criminals.

    There is something to be said about this games lack of subtlety, it somewhat deserves media attention... let's face it, kids get their hands on these games easily and it probably shouldn't be played by them. Most people don't really care as much about adults playing them including the media.
  • DimHearted, on 05/07/2008, -4/+2does any one remember postal, ***** tripped me out when you burned people and they shivered uuhh that was a twisted game. mario was killing plenty of turtles and *****, its just alittle realistic for people so they freak out ,kudos to gta for the spin on th plot thogh..
    • Icetype, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1"mario was killing plenty of turtles and *****" LOL
  • mike648, on 05/07/2008, -1/+5Is someone stealing angels? They better not be.
  • lumbergh, on 05/07/2008, -0/+7Did anyone think the table dances in the strip club were spot-on realistic?

    /i bought 2 in a row, the 2nd one was different and better
    • shiv68, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2
      Actually I did think that.
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Table dances? I always have to go in the back..
    • PRMapleBar, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2You should buy three in a row next time. The last one is the best.
    • Hoogs, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1I bought one once and found it to be a waste of time and money. I mean, I don't play video games to get that kind of satisfaction, but maybe it's just me.
  • shirosamurai, on 05/07/2008, -2/+3Good article. Unfortunately, I don't think these conservative pundits and the blockheads running those "family values" organizations are going to get the message. Even without playing the game, they think GTA IV is just as "bad" as GTA III (and Vice City/San Andreas). All they need to see is Niko whack a prostitute with a bat before they start condemning it as the most horrible game they've ever seen - no way do most of them ever actually PLAY the game.
  • soot, on 05/07/2008, -1/+2I just finished the story last night... and I'll say that there's definitely a layer of character development and emotion that hasn't been present in the series before.
  • accelleron, on 05/07/2008, -3/+14This article was pathetic. First of all, it assumes that the majority of players are going to be good little e-citizens and drive their guiltily-stolen Priuses around the whole game, obeying traffic laws the whole way. That isn't the way I play GTA, nor most people in my opinion, and it skews the perspective of the article immensely. This article is trying to sugar coat the real issue: the unwillingness of some people to believe that we won't go Halo after playing the game anymore than they'd go Rambo after watching the movie, and all the sh*t they bitch about and more has been in movies forever.
  • BandaiRoo, on 05/07/2008, -1/+2I never played GTA because I always thought of it as senseless violence. This one seems to have actually added some depth, and it seems like a worthy play. Thank you for changing my perception.
    And I'm glad to see something going against all the griping the people in the media do about video games. It's refreshing to see someone take the gamer's side.
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Don't make your decisions based on other people's opinions.. rent the game.. and see why its as successful as it is.
  • fudged71, on 05/07/2008, -0/+10I found the dialog between Niko and his cousin to be very meaningful, mainly when you go out and do social activities.
    It was also quite a surprise to me how much some camera shaking could hinder my driving ability when drunk in the game. Really neat!

    Oh, and I must say... when I went on the "first date" mission, I failed it. I mowed down like 15 people on the board walk, and she ran out screaming. Let me tell you, I had a sad realization after that. I can't even keep a virtual girlfriend. wow. GTA, you kill ME
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2Yeah don't bring Kiki out to Burger shot on the first date either.. she won't be impressed.. and you'll have to wait before being able to date her again..
  • cjmart, on 05/07/2008, -0/+6Wow, amazing read. I could not agree with this guy more. Especially when he describes how the strip clubs, drinking, etc are all present in GTA IV, but they are also present in real life, and you have the choice to decide if you want to participate in these activities just as you do in real life. No one is forcing you to do these activities.
  • kirado4, on 05/07/2008, -0/+7step1.. say "murder simulator" over and over.. murder simulator,murder simulator,murder simulator,murder simulator,murder simulator..

    .. if games are murder simulators what are news programs..? Murder tutorials?
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1News programs are the reality shows of murders and crime.. They condone pedophiles by making "baits", they interview criminals... etc..
  • thecheatah, on 05/07/2008, -15/+2I think I am the only person in the world to say this, but I HATE THIS ***** GAME. WAIST OF 60$z. I cannot shoot with the controls. How hard is it to add a ***** southpaw setting?

    ***** you ROCKSTAR.
    I WILL PIRATE YOUR GAME WHEN IT COMES TO THE PC.
    • TecK415, on 05/07/2008, -1/+8wah, " I can aiiim! My fingers. nooo."
    • YamiJim, on 05/07/2008, -3/+3your ***** in GTA but you can always beat Apollo Creed, well if he was still alive i guess.
    • Hoogs, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2Bye!
  • TecK415, on 05/07/2008, -0/+4Well, I still like mowing down pedestrians at high speeds and doing prostitutes. What does that mean?

    This was a wonderful game, I beat it and I was actually sad that it was over.
  • thailand1972, on 05/07/2008, -0/+6I can only speak for myself: games do not influence my behaviour in the outside world GOOD OR BAD. It's just a game. I'm not a better or worse person for playing a game.
  • Konrad9, on 05/07/2008, -1/+4I must say, it's significantly more difficult for me to just randomly kill people in GTA4 than it was in GTA3 or VC. It just... feels like it's wrong, probably because everyone doesn't look like a cartoon.
  • TecK415, on 05/07/2008, -0/+4Also, the best way to get rid of your wanted level is by driving your motorcycle through the subway. You'll be able to get rid of any wanted level. Thats where I do most of my rampages, I'm the subway killerrrrrr.
    • Markpdotcom, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1I'm the Crazee Eyezzz Killaahh!!!! :D
    • BearinG, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Why is that? the cops don't go down there?

      I thought there were some guards with guns though
      • TecK415, on 05/08/2008, -0/+1They go down to where the trains pick people up, but they don't have cars, so you can drive away on the train tracks to the next stop and lose your wanted level. works every time, even with six stars.
  • YamiJim, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2wow, some people DO take games a little to seriously, i guess it adds a while new aspect making it more of an Action RPG?
    Maybe i'll try that out, but probably not, i spend all my normal time adhering to lifes rules, i'll be damned if im not going to stab anybody who looks at me the wrong way and then take his wallet look at his ID and kill his family and his dog.
  • Zaggynl, on 05/07/2008, -0/+5Uhm, it's a game.
  • FFXIfrohike, on 05/07/2008, -2/+2The article uses the second person a bit too much. "You feel this way when you hit someone with a baseball bat... You feel this way when killing someone when they're down." All of those sentences could have been written in the 1st person, and the author's point would have been less... hamfisted? He does have a point though, in places.
  • Ganpachi, on 05/07/2008, -3/+3Speaking of monstrous, the infamous argument that GTA allows you to hire a prostitute, kill her and take back your money has also been colored with dissuasion from the developers. As is tradition, I spent my time looking for a prostitute to hire (don't judge me!). First off, it's pretty hard to even find them, but once you have done so, you can begin the ghastly business at hand -- and the best thing is that Rockstar has actually made it ghastly!

    As you pick up the prostitute and find somewhere quiet to go, Niko will comment about how pathetic he is, and how desperate he has to be to resort to such a low act. The increased gratuity of the act itself (she gets on top of Niko and mimes wriggling around on his penis) does little to make the act more erotic or glamorous -- in fact, it only serves to make the whole sequence feel uncomfortable and nasty. The woman performs the act mostly in silence while Niko tries -- and fails -- to enjoy it. When it's all over and she leaves the car, Niko will comment again about how horrible it was, and you are left feeling anything but horny. It's cold and it's sleazy, and you feel like a ***** for doing it.

    Hell, when I ran the prostitute over to see if the money appeared, it didn't. While I can't speak for everyone, I have to say that no monetary reward was yielded to me when I killed the woman.

    That Rockstar took one of its most controversial aspects and turned it into an actual piece of effective social commentary, doing nothing but mocking the use of prostitutes, is commendable in my book. Again, if yo
  • Fast05GT, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1living in NYC some of the stuff in GTA isnt too far fetched
  • mkay2008, on 05/07/2008, -0/+2Great read - very valid arguments and points.
  • FearFactory, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Thug Angel??
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