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419 Comments
- eir574, on 06/20/2008, -4/+17@Nannybell,
I am aware that many homosexuals want to be accepted in society and to end discrimination. Some go too far in attacking others in order to achieve those goals. But, the idea in and of itself isn't evil. They should no more be ostracized from society and discriminated against in the work place and by the government than should someone who does other things that Christians consider to be sins. - dshPls, on 06/20/2008, -3/+16Eir574, be serious. Some guy wrote a book in 1989 and it speaks for millions of people, as Nannybell pointed out. This is why she thinks all priests are pedophiles, because a few people in a certain group speak for the entire group.
- inactive, on 06/20/2008, -4/+16If there is any "agenda" out there, it is you and your kind. The PHONY "Christian" with their agenda against gays.
Of ALL the things in the bible that Jesus spoke about as sins (he didn't even MENTION homosexuality), THIS is your soap box crusade? Who has the agenda? It is you, with your fear of the unknown, and your hateful intolerance.
Does your church allow divorced people to be part of the church? Do you protest that?
If you say "yes they do" and "no I don't" you are a hypocrite of the highest magnitude. You are also proving, definitely, this has NOTHING to do with your Christian beliefs, or following Jesus' word, and everything to do with your old school bigotry. - inactive, on 06/20/2008, -11/+23So their "agenda" is that they want to live their lives with the people they love, without being singled out by Christian bigots? Their "agenda" is they want to be treated equally, as human beings, like the Constitution guarantees?
Meanwhile, all you "Christians" following Jesus teaching of love, tolerance, and forgiveness, because you are just as bad a sinner, and have no right to judge anyone else, want to jump up and down and scream "gay agenda!!!"
Again I say: Jesus would disown his own religion today... - eir574, on 06/20/2008, -6/+18"Why not be satisfied with civil unions?"
The only reason not to be satisfied with marriage for some of us and civil unions for the rest is that we've tried "separate but equal" before, and it was a dismal failure.
Just because a thing could have negative repercussions (and I'm not conceding that the picture you've drawn is completely accurate), that doesn't mean that we should never do that thing. It means that we should be aware of potential negative effects and guard against them. Your entire argument seems to be based in fear. - inactive, on 06/20/2008, -5/+16So I ask you: Are you JUST as adamant about divorced people? Jesus mentions them SPECIFICALLY (while not even discussing homosexuality).
Why would it be that you are SO hard core about homosexuality, but give divorce a pass? Could it be gays are easy targets? You can be hateful and bigoted against them, and fit right in, but go after divorce, and you are going to piss off a bunch of your fellow church members?
This Christian agenda against gays is SO transparent. It is no different that the last hundred years: pick out a group that has minimal rights. Say giving them rights would "destroy our Christian nation" (women voting, inter racial marriage, etc.), then pat yourselves on the back for being able to ignore your own sins, while demonizing others. - inactive, on 06/20/2008, -11/+22A truly evil document.
- eir574, on 06/20/2008, -12/+23So, when you refer to the "gay agenda," you're talking only about same sex marriage? If so, you're the only one I've encountered who has meant it that way. Usually when people refer to some nefarious 'agenda,' they mean that homosexuals want to recruit heterosexual children into homosexuality and/or that they want to pass hate speech laws that will somehow outlaw preaching from the bible.
Ending discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is an agenda, but it's not a secret one and it's not evil. I still don't understand why anyone who wants to preserve a religious definition of marriage continues to want the government entangled in it at all. Why can't we just separate the legal and religious definitions of marriage? Let all couples enter into civil unions, and let religious institutions sanctify those unions as marriages if that's what couples want and the religious institutions are willing to do so. Even before we get to the issue of same sex marriage, why would you want to call my marriage, which was not sanctified according to any religious rituals (though we did throw in traditional Jewish rituals that had cultural meaning to my family) by the same name you use for unions that are sanctified in a church? - dshPls, on 06/20/2008, -6/+17Oh lord they want equal treatment! I thought the gay agenda was something cooler like world domination...
- ashfish, on 06/20/2008, -4/+14Well I guess "love thy neighbor" and "let he without sin cast the first stone" and "god is the only one capable of passing judgment" has been thrown out the door when it comes to homosexuals. Where is your tolerance? Where is your compassion that I remember being the foundation of my Christian teachings? Maybe there's a new church movement I've missed since leaving.
- inactive, on 06/20/2008, -18/+28Whenever a homosexual or lesbian gives you that well practiced dumb look and innocently asks, "What gay agenda?" Call 'em on their feigned ignorance and show them this document which outlines the homosexual strategy to forward the twisted gay agenda. http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/lgbt/camarriage_joint_200 ...
- Dimensio, on 06/23/2008, -0/+10"They know homosexuality is perverse. "
Please demonstrate that homosexuality is "perverse" and demonstrate that the subjects of your statements "know" this to be true. - inactive, on 06/20/2008, -3/+13Divorced people want to be accepted in society, and not be shunned, since the bible makes it clear divorce is a sin.
That damn divorced people agenda! Glad to see you are JUST as adamant about them as well... - Dimensio, on 06/20/2008, -4/+14"And yes, the normalization of homosexuality affects us all. It twists the mind into believing that what is an obvious perversion is actually quite normal and acceptable. "
Please demonstrate that homosexuality is a "perversion". - lydecker, on 06/20/2008, -6/+15These aren't special privileges, as they would extend rights so everyone could enjoy them. And marriage is not harmful to society.
Black people and white people used to have the same right to marry... someone of the same race as them. - ashfish, on 06/20/2008, -2/+11Ok, so what do you say to the Jews who don't agree that Jesus is the Messiah? And what about homosexual relations before the advent of Judeo-Christianity...The ancient world actually practiced homosexuality a lot, it was considered quite normal. There may be no marriage precedent for homosexuals but there certainly is precedent of their relations being accepted.
- locamama, on 06/20/2008, -6/+15I believe homosexuality is normal for those people. I never made the choice to be attracted to men. That's just how I'm made. I think they were made differently - that doesn't make them a perversion. They are as God made them.
- ozydingo, on 06/20/2008, -5/+14Let's ignore for a second what many above have pointed out regarding the gravity of this "agenda," and assume there were some kind of malicious world-domination, child-subverting agenda document. You would then expect every single homosexual person to know about it and be secretly in on it just because there exists a document stating it? You would have the audacity to conclude "feigned ignorance" upon hearing someone say "what agenda?" because of that? Are homosexuals supposed to have some kind of hive mind so that they every homosexual knows what every other homosexual is up to? Because if not, your comment makes no sense.
- locamama, on 06/20/2008, -9/+18These couples have not "married" they are married. There is no need for quotation marks. Live and let live. This does not affect your marriage for these people to commit their lives to the person they love before both God and the government. Straight not narrow is my motto. They are just people like you and God loves them too.
- lydecker, on 06/20/2008, -7/+16Satan works for Adobe.
- Dimensio, on 06/20/2008, -6/+15Please cite the specific privileges that homosexuals are seeking to the exclusion of non-homosexuals, and demonstrate the alleged "harm" that would result.
- zortnac, on 06/24/2008, -0/+9Way to exaggerate and stretch what I said. I didn't say that there is no right and wrong, in fact I think right and wrong exists very clearly, but when it comes to something like homosexuality and homosexual acts, your idea that they are both wrong is purely your opinion.
If it isn't, if it's something that's so clearly wrong that you can demonstrate why, then go ahead and try to demonstrate why. You can't take an inherently harmless act and try to say simply that it's wrong without supporting why. - lydecker, on 06/23/2008, -0/+9Can I see some of these statements from gays and perhaps gay allies who imply sex is the be all and end all of existence? Do you think it's perhaps a mistake on your interpretation?
Do you think gays say it's cruel for you (not all who live in a hetero marriage, you don't represent them) to offer a suggestion that they remain celibate, or that it's cruel to treat gay relationships differently than you do straight relationships when it comes to legal marriages?
Do you really think gays think sex is the be all and end all of existence? Are you mistaken enough about gays to think that they revolve their lives around sex, whereas heterosexuals do not?
Do you think your perception is perhaps because you do not support allowing gays the freedom to have relationships, perhaps with or without sex, and that is what they oppose?
I agree that it is not cruel to offer advice about God to gays. As long as you are simply offering advice. - Dimensio, on 06/23/2008, -1/+10"To those with faith, no explanation is necessary. To those without, no explanation is possible."
This is a "poisoning the well" fallacy. You are attempting to justify your refusal to substantiate your claims with evidence. This is not logically equivalent to substantiating your claims with evidence and, in fact, it is a dishonest debate tactic.
If you cannot substantiate your claims, then your claims cannot be considered rational or reasonable, and they cannot constitute the rational basis for any position. - StaticThunder, on 06/20/2008, -4/+13God doesn't love what you do either, Nannybell. The Biblical Christ would never practiced the politics of division the way you do, he would have been kicking over your table at the temple.
No one is forcing you to "accept" anything except that other people have the same rights as you do. Even to make things you think of as mistakes, or to come to different conclusions than you. - raymondmarble, on 06/20/2008, -7/+15Hmmm...
A document outlining a plan to secure some of the same rights that heterosexuals enjoy for homosexuals.
Evil?
Or maybe when you say "evil document" you are referring to the font? They typeface? The fact that it's in PDF rather than HTML? - inactive, on 06/20/2008, -2/+10Actually, Satan collaborates with Bill Gates.
- inactive, on 06/20/2008, -13/+21To those who think the Gay Agenda is going to pass easily not so fast already several groups, and other Religous groups are banning together to fight for Marriage. 1997 in So Cal there was a school that was about to allow a Gay/Straight club but said no to a Religous club because of their beliefs against Gays, Gays dont support Godly ways according to the bible so why do you think the Gays wanted to get in their so they could start trouble, so over 2,000 people showed up and marched me included their was Mormons and Christians, Jevoah Witnesses, Catholics, even people who didnt like Religion were there. I know my church all 6,000 plus and the trinty of the church which is in every country and all states of America so add another 4 Million will be helping any legal team to get Gay Marriage back to at least Civil unions, and thats whats going to happen this country is not going to be a Gay Marriage Anti-Godly Country no way...............
- StaticThunder, on 06/20/2008, -6/+14I for one welcome our fabulous overlords.
- Phyraxus, on 06/23/2008, -0/+8What? Prove It? EVERYONE KNOWS IT JUST IS! EVERYONE!
(lol) - ashfish, on 06/20/2008, -7/+15This is disgusting, with the serious issues we have going on in the world we're concerning ourselves with who other people choose to marry? Seriously?! How about we address more pressing issues? Like the economic state of the US and the dollar, the recent flooding and other extreme weather that has ripped across the nation and those families who need help, or the fact that our troops are still in Iraq. And don't even give me that ***** about God causing all of the weather we've been seeing because of homosexuals. Calm down and stop sticking your nose into other's business where it doesn't belong. None of us are able to judge ANYONE else as none of us are free of sin or bad decisions.
- raymondmarble, on 06/20/2008, -7/+15Sorry, BECoole, you are outright incorrect. There are no "special privileges".
You and I have the right to marry the person that we love. Homosexuals do not.
You and I have the right to visit our spouse in the hospital if our spouse is in a serious unconscious condition. Homosexuals do not, if their immediate blood relatives choose to exclude them. You and I have the right to make emergency medical decisions for our spouse. Again, gay people do not, if their immediate blood relatives choose to exclude them.
The list goes on an on... complex issues concerning the release of financial and medical information, taxes, wills, child custody, alimony, and Fifth Amendment rights.
These are rights that you and I enjoy, but homosexual couples do not.
If anyone has "special privileges", it's you and I, not homosexual couples.
Lastly, please tell us how gay marriage is "harmful to society". I could not disagree more, and I have never heard a reasonable argument as to why this would be so. - ashfish, on 06/20/2008, -4/+12There have been more and more articles coming out saying that homosexuality is not a learned trait but one you are born with. If its something you're born with how can it be a sin? If a child is a gift from God, isn't he then specifically making that child homosexual for a purpose? Or are those findings just more of the scientific anti-Christianity agenda?
- lydecker, on 06/23/2008, -2/+9Are you saying living a homosexual lifestyle means acting on the temptation to have sex with a same sex partner? What an insult, or ignorance.
Does living a heterosexual lifestyle mean acting on the temptation to have sex with an opposite sex partner?
A homosexual's lifestyle is and can be most everything that a heterosexual's lifestyle is. Fulfilling the need to have sex is not required, though many take part. - inactive, on 06/20/2008, -8/+15Nannybell,
I want to thank you for posting. You are the poster child for what is wrong with Christianity today. Every time you post, you turn more and more people away from religion.
It was people like you that didn't want women to vote. Didn't want slavery ended, didn't want interracial marriage. You are running out of groups to demonstrate your hateful bigotry.
And, WTF are you doing even posting your opinion? The bible is very clear about a woman's place. How dare you break bible law!
And, of course, I am SURE you don't even SPEAK to anyone who has been divorced. If you do, you are going to hell!
You are a hypocrite of the highest degree, hiding behind a tiny piece of the bible to demonstrate your bigotry and hatefulness, all the while ignoring Jesus ACTUAL teachings.
Keep posting. You couldn't do much more to hurt your religion, but I am sure you will try! - Cate320, on 06/21/2008, -5/+12 it safe to assume that everyone in this thread against gays is a white, heterosexual male?
Because how is this any different from women or minorities wanting equal treatment?
So, they want acceptance in society, so does everyone else! No one fits the "norm" exactly. And who decides who's normal? Who decides who's crazy? Who decides who's evil?
As long as someone isn't doing anything to hurt someone else (or plotting it), they aren't evil. Really, I can only fathom that you guys have a problem with the actual sex acts, as gays are "normal" in every other possible way. Guess what? I had anal sex with my boyfriend just last night (I'm a girl btw). Is that "evil" to you? Or is it somehow ok, just because there aren't balls slapping? We very often give each other oral sex. Evil? If you've never done these things, then you (and your partner) is missing out. If you have, maybe you need to stop being so discriminatory against gays, because it just makes you a hypocrite.
Gay marriage, or acceptance of gays in general is NOT going to hurt anyone here. In fact, if you think about it, it can really only help you. Why don't you step back and consider how you would feel if someone close to you, like a son, daughter, sister or brother, "came out". Would you really kick them out of your life? Would you want them treated badly by society as a whole? And if you would, maybe you also need to reconsider who is the "bad" person. - lydecker, on 06/23/2008, -0/+7"If you're about to say that homosexuals are far more promiscuous than heterosexuals, I've asked several times for sources on that."
Well, this is something that I do know and have seen statistics. I believe it, but don't believe somehow as Nannybell does that homosexual orientation somehow causes someone to have more sexual partners.
"People who have same-sex partners tend to have more sexual partners overall. The same study showed that men who had at least one male sexual partner in the previous 5 years had an average of 16.7 sexual partners during that time period, while men who only had sex with women had an average of 4.8 sexual partners during that time. Women with female sexual partners had an average of 10.1 partners while women with only male partners had an average of 2.2 partners."
Laumann, Edward O. (1994). The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States. University of Chicago Press, 315. - eir574, on 06/23/2008, -0/+7@Nannybell,
I don't understand something you've said. You're against homosexuality because it can lead to disease, early death, and psychiatric illnesses. You say that the same is true of promiscuous heterosexuals. In the former case, it's the sexual orientation that must be eliminated, but in the latter case it's the dangerous behaviors? Why do you consider promiscuity to be the proximate cause of those things in the case of heterosexuals, but in the case of homosexuals, it's their sexual orientation?
If you're about to say that homosexuals are far more promiscuous than heterosexuals, I've asked several times for sources on that. It's not something that everyone just knows, as you've said before. We may think it, but we only know it if we have studies and statistics. - StaticThunder, on 06/21/2008, -1/+8I suppose thats because those people at the forefront of civil rights are the TRUE Christians. Unlike you.
Oh wait, did I use a No True Scottsman argument? Why yes I did. Figured it was about time I get to use it on one of you. - lydecker, on 06/23/2008, -0/+7"What I meant was that one can have the attraction to the same sex without acting upon it."
Duh. Everyone can have an attraction without having sex... do you think gays somehow don't know that but straights do?
Yes, living out the homosexual/heterosexual tendency in a relationship which includes sex and outside of a lifelong commitment is not what God intended. So if you believe in God, then it's important to consider His wishes for you. - lydecker, on 06/22/2008, -1/+8Comparisons don't insult every race.
Intolerance of one group is intolerance of all. - Nannybell, on 06/20/2008, -2/+9So, you deny there are quite a few homosexual activist groups? Do you doubt that they have the support of wealthy donors? Do you deny that what this book describes is pretty much the pattern that has occurred in attempting to normalize homosexuality in our society?
- eir574, on 06/22/2008, -0/+7@Salesti,
I didn't say it was anyone involved in this particular conversation. I said I've seen it on digg. Since you've asked for a specific name, browse through aerostar's history. You'll come across posts that say that all homosexuals are worse than human excrement, fit only to be discarded. Awhile back I had a conversation with allisonrose870 in which I asked her if she had anything against homosexuals who mind their own business, and she said that homosexuals don't mind their own business -- they try to recruit children. That was awhile back.
Do you deny that there are people who paint all homosexuals with the same brush? - eir574, on 06/20/2008, -2/+9"I just happen to believe Biblical teachings which condemn sin, one of which is homosexuality. "
Presumably you'd agree that there are people who speak out in very strong terms against homosexuality. They say it's perverse, it makes them nauseous, and that condoning it in society would be akin to oppressing those who believe it's perverse. But, divorce is already condoned in society. People are so worried about the "gay agenda" to move towards greater acceptance of homosexuality, but we're already there with divorce! In many states, you're legally entitled to a no fault divorce. If you don't have children and the divorce is amicable, you can even get it done cheaply. There are services that charge relatively little money to help you with the paperwork.
Why are there people who feel the need to let us know on a very regular basis how disgusting they think homosexuality and even homosexuals themselves are when we don't see that same level of fervor with respect to divorce? - lydecker, on 06/22/2008, -1/+8I'm not tolerant of a viewpoint that says marriage for straight couples is okay but for gay couples it isn't. It doesn't make me intolerant of people, like those who are intolerant of gay couples, and who believe stereotypes about the GLBT community.
Doesn't it make sense that the equality agenda would be unhappy that people voted for inequality? I would think so.
I don't believe in shutting people up, if you believe I've done anything to shut someone up, please let me know, because that wouldn't be tolerant on my part.
I don't want it both ways, I want it equal. I never claimed otherwise. Wise up. - zortnac, on 06/24/2008, -0/+7blessedwith6, you haven't looked very hard:
http://gaychristian.net/
There are gay Christians who identify as what they call "side b," referring to the side of gay Christianity that believes God has called them to celibacy.
"However from all I have heard from gays who vehemently defend gay relationships, especially gay marriage, sex is the end all be all of existence and those of us who live in a hetero marriage are cruel for even suggesting they refrain from sex and live a celebate lifestyle so as to live in the light of God."
This is ignorance on an offensive level. Sex is not the "end all be all" of existence for two people in a homosexual relationship. Sex is part of any relationship, but so is love, romance, commitment, compassion, and every other aspect of a romantic dynamic.
Also, the casual way many people suggest gay people to simply, "live celibate lives" as if they're asking them to give up chocolate for lent, is cold, obtuse, and completely lacking in compassion. - eir574, on 06/24/2008, -0/+7"I didn't say that there is no right and wrong"
I'm afraid this may be another example of the false dichotomy that some Christians believe in. They think that if you don't believe that their deity has laid down unalterable moral laws that cannot be questioned, then you must just make things up as you go along. This then implies to them that you'd be very fickle and would easily change your mind, particularly if you could make yourself happier by doing so. Most of them then ignore the fact that there are countless interpretations out there of their supposed absolute moral law, which makes at least all but one of them just as relative as anyone else's morality. Please note again that I didn't say that all Christians think this way, but just that some of the ones I've encountered on digg have presented that argument. - ozydingo, on 06/21/2008, -1/+8Please re-read my post, and realize that the specifics or even existence of the supposed agenda are not important to my point.
My point, restated for simplicity, is that even if there were this agenda that this or any document outlined, rjwusa would be out of line for saying that any homosexuals who denies the existence of it (the document or the agenda) is feigning ignorance.
My point is simply that any particular homosexual is not always aware of what every other homosexual is doing or thinking, and to address your additional point not every homosexual is part of some network or group connected through the internet to carry out this supposed agenda. Do you understand and agree with my point now? Even if you were right about an agenda and a group of homosexuals intent on carrying it out, not every single homosexual in the world would be involved or even aware of it, and calling out "feigned ignorance" and a "well practiced dumb look" to any and every homosexual that denies knowledge of it is pure foolishness. - inactive, on 06/22/2008, -0/+7And again I ask, how is extending marriage rights to gays and lesbians "destroying" marriage, or tearing it apart?
- flip2trip, on 06/21/2008, -5/+11@ssn--
"Same bigotry, different target. You hard core haters, in the name of "Christianity" are nothing if not consistent with your anger.
If anyone has professed to "hate" homosexuals (the person) then cite quotes where they have. Why can't you people understand that it is not about the person, it's about the perversion? If they were merely interested in living their lives without indoctrinating everyone to believe that somehow what they do is OK, I'd have no problem with them.
Evil is the same regardless of whether you are talking about *****-sex, lying, cheating, stealing etc...And it always comes in the same way, slowly, over time--allowing people to get used to it, so it becomes part of the fabric of everyday life.
You keep bringing up divorce and this is a good example of what I'm talking about. Now divorce is so common no one thinks anything about it anymore, and yet, it is still just as devastating to the kids and the adults involved as it ever was. -
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