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233 Comments
- wetworx, on 10/12/2007, -55/+113Yeah, if Israel would only ignore the missles raining down on them, their people kidnapped, tortured and executed and the suicide bombers in their school buses, the arabs would get the point, that love will win out.
They need to join hands and sing songs of peace and brotherhood, it is the only way! - wetworx, on 10/12/2007, -18/+50How suprising, the countries who have all sworn blood oaths to drive every last Israeli into the ocean, all are dissapproving of how Israel is fighting a war.
I am shocked!
I would be willing to bet, real money, that if every jew slit their own throat, the arabs would complain about the mess. - timmclargehuge, on 10/12/2007, -21/+48Israel isn't trying to win the hearts and minds of their neighbors who have had nothing but the obliteration of Israel on their hearts and minds since 1948. They're trying to splatter the hearts and minds of evil men who want to rain rockets on Israelis across the landscape.
- cathode, on 10/12/2007, -22/+49Uh, since when to Arab countries NOT support anything against Israel?
lame, no digg. - Lanser84, on 10/12/2007, -15/+40I agree wetworx's sentiment.
The "tide of opinion" meaning "popularity with the enemy" never won a war. What's much more important is making them believe they can't win. That's where the Howitzers and bombings come into play...not in "winning hearts and minds." Show me a war in all of history that wasn't won by breaking the enemy's will to fight.
It may be true that killing civilizans makes other people angry...but is it really pacifists' theory that if an enemy puts civilians in your path to self-defense you need to lay down your weapons and endanger your own people?
Those other ME countries should be blaming Hizbullah for civilian casualties (as they initially did this time around). If Israel proclaimed it's tactics as necessary for its self-defense and wasn't effaced by most of the rest of the Western world they wouldn't dare blame Israel for defending itself. - PotatoSalad, on 10/12/2007, -33/+57@wetworx: Exactly.
This situation reminds me of court cases where person A assaults person B until person B fights back in defense. Person A then quickly files for assault charges against person B.
Hezbollah and other groups have been picking at Israel in what seems to be an effort to "see how far we can go" until Israel retaliates. I believe Hezbollah overstepped that line, whether you agree with Israel's response or not, I believe Israel has every right to do what is necessary. - WackyT, on 10/12/2007, -12/+32This is just getting unbelievable. Hezbollah starts this whole mess by abducting 2 soldiers on the Israeli side of the border. Hezbollah hides and fires their rockets among the citizens of Lebanon. Israel is not allowed to hunt these cowards on the ground, so they try their best to hunt them down from the air. How is Hezbollah the hero in this?
- Karkian, on 10/12/2007, -15/+30@Aggaman
I'm English and I don't hate Israel.
While it's true that I don't agree with the way that they're going about the whole thing, I'm really not sure what else they were supposed to do. Just sit back and carry on mopping up after rocket attacks? - madstringer, on 10/12/2007, -11/+23so, when Canada kidnaps two of our soldiers and launches hundreds of rockets into our country daily, we should just "turn the other cheek"? "Yea, don't worry about it, we understand---You have anger management problems..."
Politics 101: If one is attacked, to not fight back and show that there are reprocussions to such attack is to have oneself branded as weak and further open oneself up to further attacks.
I know that this hasn't made the rocket attacks stop (quite the opposite in fact), but for the citizens of Israel, they can't say that their gov't stood by and did nothing while they were getting hit by rockets.... - HarryBauzonia, on 10/12/2007, -14/+26You mean Arab Hitlers support terrorists who want to kill every Jew and Christian on earth?
The NYT are now masters of the obvious. - truspector, on 10/12/2007, -39/+51@benjury
The arab world has been getting "modded up" for being racist forever now. How is this differnet? I'm trying to prove a point that anti-sematic is OK, but anti-muslim is RACIST. - repins, on 10/12/2007, -15/+26So what do you recommend? Tea and crumpets?
It makes me sad that everyone is ignoring the fact that Hezbollah abducted Israeli soldiers by invading Israel. Also, why are people not demanding that Hezbollah return the abducties? Seems to me that would go along way to stop the killing of "innocent" civilians. - MacBigot, on 10/12/2007, -12/+22The Arab world wants to destroy Israel and exterminate Jews?! Wow, that IS news. Thanks Diggots!
- jsd8cc, on 10/12/2007, -18/+28If Arabs should be mad at anyone, it should be Hizbollah. They're the ones provoking Israel by killing and kidnapping soldiers, then attacking from behind civilians.
I've also never understood how they've come up with "civilian deaths." Terrorists are civilians. You think you can tell the difference between a normal person walking down the street and these pusillanimous, sub-human terrorists? That's what makes this whole situation so nasty, and why Iraq has been such a mess. - dkarlson, on 10/12/2007, -10/+20That's just the logic in the region.
- Eldoo77, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16Buried story as Inaccurate. What a surprise! Arabs who have pledged to kill every Israeli alive or drive them into the Mediterranean back Hezbollah terrorists over Israelis!
- ryanr313, on 10/12/2007, -14/+23raisputin so the fact that hizb'allah started the war and deliberately targets civilians is worthy of support? The fact that Irsrael honored its obligation to a UN security resolution and withdrew from Lebanon and hizb'allah and Lebanon and the UN failed to live up to their commitments is worhty of support? I suppose you also think the only problem with Hitler is he did not finish the job.
- Rageous, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16That's an incredibly biased article, btw.
- NoLeafClover, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17Wait wait wait...what do you mean "turn to support...". I wasn't aware the arab populace had another position!
Zoinks Scooby! Well no shizznit! - balman222, on 10/12/2007, -26/+34find it hard to believe you guys don't get this, each day that passes, each lebanese civilian killed, each city or town or village that gets flattened, makes hizbullah stronger.
So to them its not about winning or loosing, its about the fight, if they live its good if they die its good, and they will be seen as standing against the agressors.
So forget the NY times, it doesnt matter, but every bomb that falls in lebanon every gazan that dies, will make them stronger, more people will join
You cannot fight an army of people who to die using people that want to live, it can never work .. "intro to war 101" .. - Rince, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Off course they are hiding among civilians. They are civilians.
When is the last time you saw a ETA member in Spain, a PKK member in Turkey, or an IRA member in Northern Ireland parading the streets in a military uniform.
They are not a regular army, but a bunch of civilians, they are not the defense branch of any country..
One of the perks of that is that instead of living at army barracks they live at home with their families. - Broccoli, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17I don't see why Israel is the bad guy to some people. Israel has put up with he Hezbollah enough. If Hezbollah did what it has been doing to Israel to the united states i guarantee we would be at war with them. Israel isn't doing anything way out of line, they are blowing up military targets. Yes it sucks civilians die in wars, nobody likes too see that, but also people seem to to forget all of the Israeli civilians that have died as well. So its not like only one side is taking civilian casualties.
- Rince, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10If they were captured within Lebanese territory then it was a violation of Lebanese sovereignty and they should be warned off by or turned over to... the Lebanese army. Nowhere does that involve civilians.
- Egoist, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14Then why don't you tell those living in the Gaza strip to go back to Jordan? If you want to argue who was there first, the Jews win.
- repins, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12People who just want to be left alone do not invade other countries and take hostages.
- nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9>Not *all* Muslims are
Yeah like the world cares what those 5 guys in the west that you might be lucky to find if you ask about 10 million what they think say ....and besides 3 of them are lying like the Koran and Hadits tell them to do to the infidels. - EComni, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@Lancer84
"The "tide of opinion" meaning "popularity with the enemy" never won a war. What's much more important is making them believe they can't win. That's where the Howitzers and bombings come into play...not in "winning hearts and minds." Show me a war in all of history that wasn't won by breaking the enemy's will to fight."
Very true, but unfortunately invalid for this nature of conflict.
On one side you have a super army with the most advanced weaponry and armor, but an adherence to the conventional rules of wars. On the other, you have a small ragtag group of people with limited weapons, no armor, but home-field advantage, guerrilla tactics (VERY important), and, yes, the hearts and minds of a few of their people.
If history has taught us anything, (The American Revolution, Vietnam, Soviet Afghanistan, present-day Iraq, and likely many other battles), it's that a fight between such opposing forces is NOT in favor of the super army breaking the small ragtag group's will, because it's EXTREMELY likely that the small ragtag group's will to fight CAN'T be broken, and killing civilians not only strengthens their resolve but also replenishes their numbers because of the whole "hearts and minds" thing.
I'm not saying that Israel shouldn't fight back, far from it. Their fight is a good fight, as is the US' fight. I'm saying that guerrillas can't be beaten with the current weapons and tactics.
Does ANYONE have a solution to guerrilla warfare? - velocipenguin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10let us overuse...ellipses...to impart...a pompous air...of profundity...to our...unhinged rants...
- CupBeEmpty, on 10/12/2007, -7/+13Oh right... not ALL jews... just all jews in Israel. Well that is dang near heroic. The basic plot here is that Israel is SURROUNDED on all sides by armies and terrorist organizations that want nothing more than the death or forced conversion of every Jew in Israel.
Imagine for a minute what the US would do if Canda backed by Iran spent 20 years pontificating on the genocide of Americans and launching rockets into Detroit Minneapolis and Seattle only to up the ante by abducting a few American servicemen?
Its also a no-sh!! statement that the rest of the Arab world sides against Israel... are you kidding me? This ranks amongst newsworthy items somewhere between "France believes itself to be more cultured than the US" and "Toast is made from bread." I cannot conceive of what a Muslim country would have to do to Israel to get Israel's neighbors to feel bad for them.
The f!!!ed up thing is that Israel actually calls people on the telephone in Lebenon before attacking to let them know they should get out so as to avoid being killed. Hezbollah on the other hand has made a point of firing rockets and storing them in traditionally Christian neighborhoods so that when shrapnel kills a little Christian boy or girl they can use that tragedy to "turn the tide" of public opinion against Israel. Now somehow we are supposed to believe that Israel is an evil fascist state akin to Hitler's Germany?
In any conflict between "theocracies that bury women up to their shoulders and stone them to death for getting raped" and "people that democratically elect their leaders and attempt to avoid civillian casualties by CALLING THEM before a military operation" I think I will side with the non-stone-her-to-death crowd. - micro506, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, but this is the New York Times.
- shantambee3, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11@repins,
I recommend diplomacy.
Clearly, neither the Israel or Hizballah's strategy seem to be working.
The real effects of their actions, to put it simply, kills a lot of people. - Bhima, on 10/12/2007, -23/+28While I absolutely can not condone the previous actions of Hezbollah, there is no way a right thinking man can support all these actions of Israel.
- Lanser84, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Did all of the Japanese bomb pearl harbor? Did all Germans invade Poland?
-the answer is "yes and no" - They didn't sail or march but Japanese and Germans who supported these actions, politically, ideologically, or materially are somewhat responsible. You cannot separate the actions of the government of a country from all its citizens. If America invaded Canada (with no legitimate reason) the Canadians would have every right to bomb us into submission to end the aggression. Even though I would have been against the attack on Canada...the risk to my life would be the fault of the US, not Canada.
Find and Replace: "America" -> Hamas, Hezbollah..."Canada" -> Israel
This isn't hypothetical....See the US Civil War and Sherman's actions against the South.
As to "GI Joe" - I won't respond to your ad hominem attack...look at the arguments. - Lanser84, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Not *all* Muslims are "united in calling for the death...of the infidel." Sadly, most in the Middle East are...and nearly all of those with a political voice.
- shantambee3, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@twinklyJesus
It's been done before:
http://www.counterpunch.org/assad07142006.html - MacBigot, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8@noahhoward
If Mexico's PRI had been sending over suicide bombers instead of busboys, lawnmen, and maids for the last fifty, yes we'd have the right to invade even at the cost of 500 civilians complicit enough not to control their own borders and foreign backed radical.
@madstringe
"I know that this hasn't made the rocket attacks stop (quite the opposite in fact), but for the citizens of Israel, they can't say that their gov't stood by and did nothing while they were getting hit by rockets...."
You're right. I was in Israel with conservative talkshow host Michael Medved when the first soldier was kidnapped near Gaza. Our tour guide has a Masters in National Defense Policy. His first reaction was one of concern that a weak response by Olmert could bring down his administration in Israel. - david76, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10@iceperson
Okay, so Hezbollah attacked ground troops. What made this incursion so different it warranted such a large scale response? - mrops, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Media did its job great both in west and the arab world.
Here, all comments that are anti-israel/US are getting modded down (mostly western people on digg), however as the article states, in the Arab world, the role Israel and hezbollah play are reversed.
Quite interesting.
The Arab world sees hezbollah as standing against the bully, david and golaith so to say.
Out in the West Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.
I think I can do my resarch thesis on why the opinions are so different.
I think this is the main cause of terrorism, the west and the arab world don't understand each other, nor do they want to understand each other's plight. - brdsofprey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Well said. These muslim extremists are the equivelent of the KKK or Neo-Nazis. They legitimize everything they do through the hatred of those not like themselves. The sad part is that they are so powerful that they twist the minds of thost people living under their control. Of course it becomes eaiser when they can say "look, the Zionists are killing our people". It's easier to hate than to deal with issues with tolerance. Many of these people have been delt a bad hand and are unfortunately in an environment where Hizballa sic. is the logical choice. I think they just don't know any better.
- Rince, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Strangely enough, and what most people seem to ignore in above comments is that the initial reaction that could be tasted on the ground among Arabs was that Hezbollah brought it on themselves. You got yourself in a mess, you get yourself out of it.
Remember that Hezbollah is viewed as supported by Iran, not the most beloved state of the Middle East. So if a few Hizbollites were to perish as a result of their own warmongering, not a Saudi royal would sleep any worse over it.
However the continuing bombardment by the Israeli at -for non-military- inexplicable targets, the way in which Hezbollah -seemingly- is holding Israel at bay, the reluctance of the US to assist in the brokering of any deal, the hesitating of the EU, and even the insistence on the rebirth of some "New Middle East" is not only rocking the man in the street, but also the governments in those countries. Mix this in with anti-Israel feelings and a rampant anti-Americanism and you have a very nice cocktail.
Most governments in the region, although not happy with it, did in fact acknowledge the existence of Israel and are tied up several agreements with them. - omokage, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Whether or not the captured Israeli soldiers were in Lebanon at the time of their capture is open to debate. Hezbollah claims that they were, yet the remains of the Humvees they were driving were found on the Israeli side of the border.
- shasbarg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@loafarcher
Get your facts straight.
~About 1000 Qassam rockets fell up to June 2006. The Qassam rockets grew in size and range, and the attacks had killed at least 9 to 11 people in all, including 5 residents of Sderot. Israel responded with artillery fire into empty fields and other psychological warfare, and then took to attacking the launching sites. At approximately the time of one such attack, several members of a Palestinian family were killed on a beach in Gaza, though Israel denied that their attack was responsible. Subsequent Israeli attacks missed their targets and killed civilians. On June 25th, just as PNA announced the conclusion of an agreement on a truce with Israel, Hamas attacked an Israeli army border outpost at Kerem Shalom, killing two soldiers and capturing a third. Hamas offered to trade the soldier for Palestinian prisoners. Israel refused to negotiate and began a siege of Gaza and later invaded in operation "Summer Rains" in an attempt to force Palestinians to return the soldier alive and stop the rain of Qassam rockets. ~ From mideastweb.com - visvivalaw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Arab public opinion? Fortunately for Isreal the Arab world consists almost entirely of police states where "public opinion" and "the will of the people" are meaningless. If anyone expresses an opinion in public that differs from their government's they get a late night visit from the secret police.
- twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5No the report actually was that Hezbollah is gaining support with Arab countries that previously had condemned them in the beginning of this conflict. The way this is written it sounds as if they mean "the world". Actually it should read "The Arab World."
- Corrosionx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5How is that different from "citizenship" exactly?
Also Palestine never was an Islamic state governed by the Charia so that doesn't apply. But if you're gonna rail against Islamists and the Charia, why not go against the Saudis, our dear allies? - shantambee3, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9@ Jaymoon:
Israel has stated time and time again that they do not want to negotiate with the Lebanese, and insisted on a bombing campaign, while at the same time declaring that all they want is peace and security for its people.
Hizballah's actions and timing in capturing the soldiers was ill chosen, and weren't done in the interest of Lebanese people, however their stated purpose for those actions were to secure the release of Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails.
Granted, there are among those prisoners which were fighters for Hizballah that Israel would not want to give up, but at the same time, Israel does hold many civilians against their will for no crimes committed.
Using broad generalized statements as calling everyone in that region 'terrorists' doesn't do anybody any justice.
Hizballah might be evil, but during a time when the Shia community in Lebanon were poor and starving, the only ones that have stepped up were them, setting up schools, hospitals, social services and whatnot.
You might consider Hizballah to be evil and the cause of this current conflict, however they've done their fair share of helping out their community out as well. - perogi21, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9"2000 years of being stubborn will not be stopped by a few bombs"
You are correct, it can be stopped with one bomb. - felchdonkey, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7True, you could compare the mulim extemists to the KKK, but you'd have to compare them to the KKK in the Deep South in the 1920s or '30s. They're widespread, thoroughly integrated into society, and have support all the way up to the highest levels of the government. Even people who don't agree with them 100% tend to "understand where they're coming from."
It wasn't easy to drive the KKK into the fringes here, and it won't be easy to eradicate the religious radicals there. It took a whole nation and culture committed to the idea of equality and civil rights, along with countless brave individuals, many if not most of whom risked their lives to fight racism. You had people on the outside garnering public opinion against the KKK, and even someone like Stetson Kennedy who went undercover inside the group to bring them to justice. It didn't just happen.
I don't see any movements like that in the Muslim world - where anyone who speaks up for reason and secularism is generally treated as a pariah. Until they change themselves, what can we do? - ryanr313, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12noahhoward- The stated goal of the mexican Government is not to wipe the US off the map. The Mexican government does not kidnap Americans and hold them for ransom. The Mexican Government does is not shelling US Cities on a daily basis. There is a difference.
- HarryBauzonia, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Or maybe the majority can just discern right and wrong.
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