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47 Comments
- IKORKYI, on 11/11/2009, -1/+14so we're going to send the original constitution, bill of rights, and relics of American history to museums around the world and not ever ask for them back?
- serif69, on 11/11/2009, -1/+14That belongs in a museum!
- Tyrghast, on 11/11/2009, -0/+11Exhibit A: The British.
- chaosmantis, on 11/11/2009, -1/+12They didn't have a flag.
No flag, no country.
Thus we claimed those pretty artifacts for the Empire fair and square.
Those were the rules in those days! - WraTH017, on 11/11/2009, -1/+10So if I dig up something of value from your property, it's mine to keep?
- kyzel, on 11/11/2009, -2/+11This is a touchy issue... it's like having to return a car you bought after finding out it was stolen. It sucks, but it's the right thing to do and you should learn from dealing with shady people.
- canadabluesfan, on 11/11/2009, -1/+9They have museums in Egypt.
- IamNomad, on 11/11/2009, -3/+11i think they need to define "stolen" better. In soem cases , ie grave robbing and black market sales.. certainly. but if the egyptian goverment authorized the dig , such at the tutankahmen digs and or every sponsered dig. then i give them a big FUUUU. Muesuems and universities pay big bucks to be able to legally dig in countries.... so given this. the gov says. HEY were cool taking your money! but wait you found somthing!?!? we want it!!! wahhhh"
The endline states a loan of the artifacts. i think this is the best solution. many museums borrow for extended period times and have traveling exbits... why not inthis case as well ?? - Barackalypse, on 11/11/2009, -0/+7They stole that stuff fair and square.
- judolphin, on 11/11/2009, -0/+6Aliwalla, you're right, because obviously no one has ever made a trip to Cairo to see the Pyramids of Giza, the Sphinx or the National Museum of Egypt, right?
/s - ericcc, on 11/11/2009, -0/+5I give up. How many?
- andruzzo, on 11/11/2009, -1/+6Good Luck with that Mr. Hawas......Greece has been fighting for the Parthenon Marbles for decades....*stolen* by
the douchebag Elgin....chiseled and hammered off the parthenon, some dropped from heights and broken, some ended up a the bottom of the sea during a shipwreck (to be retrieved years later) and some even damaged by The British Museum's lame attempts
to remove the natural patina. - theodenking, on 11/11/2009, -0/+4The British didn't spend a penny to obtain the Rosetta stone, we just had the army take it from the French while they were over there.
- sexybobo, on 11/11/2009, -3/+7Except the car in question would still be lying in a hole some where if you hadn't spent millions of dollars and man hours to get it.
- ericcc, on 11/11/2009, -2/+6Why would nobody ever see it in Egypt. Just because Michiganders don't go to Egypt as often as England doesn't mean nobody does. There's another side of the world on that side of the world your.
- inactive, on 11/11/2009, -3/+7The whole thing is a fraud, most Egyptians never gave two ***** about their history until they found out they could con western tourists into coming to see the pyramids and milk them for money. Before Napoleon they were just relics of a bygone infidel era not appreciated by the new Islamic masters, it was Europeans who discovered, translated and dug up all these treasures so thus they are entitled to what they found in my book.
The irony too is the Egyptians who are most closely related, both racially and culturally to the ancient Egyptians are the Coptic Christians in southern Egypt and they are treated as pariahs in their own country.
Also from a political standpoint, Egypt is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, it is run by a corrupt dictator with a parliament full of nutbucket Jihadis in business suits waiting for the old coot to die. When Mubarak kicks the bucket all hell could break loose, maybe if a stable government like the emirate states can be established it would be wise to consider giving back some of the artifacts as gifts but until then it's not worth taking the chance.
Finally how much ancient Roman and Greek artifacts are in the Cairo museum, should Egypt give them back? - demodawid, on 11/11/2009, -0/+3Have*
- Tyrghast, on 11/11/2009, -0/+3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k
- Barackalypse, on 11/11/2009, -8/+11They didn't or couldn't protect (or find) this stuff before, why should they get a second chance? Frankly I am a lot more comfortable with cultural artifacts safe in some Western museum than sitting in the Middle East waiting to be blown up by whatever moon cult thinks it disproves whatever holy mis-truths their magic book says.
- theodenking, on 11/11/2009, -0/+3The French Army happened to find it when they were building a fort, and then the British Army forced them to hand it over after they'd beaten them. Where exactly do the millions of dollars (curious choice of currency for the 18th century btw) and man hours come in? The French would have been building forts and the British would have been tearing them down old stone or no old stone.
While a proper archaeological excavation does take a lot of painstaking and expensive labour (I'm an archaeology student) at that time all those guys were doing was treasure hunting at best, theft at the worst. Besides, as a science archaeology is concerned with the knowledge artefacts confer, not the objects themselves. It doesn't matter where they physically are as long as they're open for study. - Spirods, on 11/11/2009, -1/+4dont forget the greek ones too!
- dsmx, on 11/11/2009, -2/+4If we hadn't of taken it there was a high chance it would of been stolen anyway.
- danj484, on 11/11/2009, -0/+2Just like King Tut's stuff is in a warehouse where no one can see it?
Wait, I seem to recall seeing all of it, his death mask, jewelry, furniture, and the all of the gold box/rooms he was buried in, on special display in the Cairo Museum, as the flagship exhibit of the museum. Not to mention thousands of other antiquities most other museums WOULD have stashed away somewhere, since most tourists wouldn't care. - Blingaling, on 11/12/2009, -0/+2"Finally how much ancient Roman and Greek artifacts are in the Cairo museum, should Egypt give them back?"
Speaking as a long time ancient history buff...
That's an interesting point. Egypt for a period was populated by Greeks (during the Hellenistic Age) The Egyptian city of Alexandria was founded by Alexander the Great and is littered with ancient Greek artifacts. After Cleopatria the Romans controlled the region for centuries. The Cairo museum has Roman artifacts on display even today.
http://egypt-travel.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_c ...
While British curators might try and argue that modern Egyptians have little to do with ancient ones... the Egyptians can pretty much argue the same back of the British GB's demographics have changed tremendously over the last hundred years much less the time of the Magna Carta was signed. On a very practical day-to-day level they have culturally little to do with the English that controlled Britain only a few hundred years ago. The same is true for most nations on earth actually. There have been great changes over the last two hundred years globally.
IMO it's a zero sum game when ethnic groups start disrespecting each other in such a manner.
For example, when Yugoslavia fell apart and part of it decided to call their country Macedonia, They now seem to be revising their ethnic narrative and claiming to be ancient Macedonians (when they are obviously Slavic not Greek and they live mostly in ancient Paeonia not ancient Macedonia). And even the Greeks don't appear to be pure (given they've changed religion, were Roman citizens during the Byzantine period, and they've clearly had cultural/genetic inputs from other ethnic groups in the region)
Or take the example of modern Jews and Palestinians. Beyond some token cultural artifacts (more so for Jewish people because of their religion and the hebrew language-which was resurrected in modern times) on a practical level neither side appear to have much to do with their ancient counterparts. For example, Jews as a nomadic people have heavily mixed with Europeans (DNA does not lie) In addition, an average moderate Jew would have been executed for heresy for their religious views in ancient times (much like modern Christians). On the other hand, modern Palestinians believe in a Muslim religion and speak a language that didn't even exist. The region used to be controlled by Romans well before before Muslims arrived on the scene.
As I said... going up that ally can be a zero sum game that opens a nasty can of ethnic and nationalistic worms that's best left closed. IMO these kinds of things can trigger a war of words which can end up in real wars if nations aren't careful.
My advice to British curators would be if Egypt wants something repatriated because of some particular nostalgic reason... Britain should be sensitive to the request. In return, as a country rich in history I'm sure Egyptians can offer back something in return of interest to British Museums. - DjBearPDX, on 11/11/2009, -1/+3If Egypt had just taken the time to invest in a bullwhip and fedora, they wouldn't be in this mess
- theodenking, on 11/11/2009, -0/+2Wrong. There is a continuity of population in Egypt going back millennia. If you think that the Arabs or any conquering people can just roll in and wholesale replace the indigenous population you've never studied history.
- darkz77, on 11/11/2009, -2/+4another person that has no clue what they are talking about. go to cairo, and see how much pride the people take in their ancient egyptian heritage. ignorance is bliss
- eh123, on 11/11/2009, -4/+6Those artifacts are safer in the hands of western civilizations who revere art and go to extraordinary lengths to protect it. We cannot risk returning artifacts to backward, unstable Islamic regimes.
- Blingaling, on 11/12/2009, -0/+2Yupper. What I was (trying) to saying is there is no net benefit trying to wreck some ethnic group's sense of itself. (although sometimes it's unavoidable if the claims become outrageous and involves physical property of another group)
But now that you mention it's fair criticism its a lousy analogy, It comes across as if I'm saying that one side can still benefit at the others expense when what would more accurately describe the situation is both sides will usually end up losers. - stevebee, on 11/11/2009, -4/+6Remember the Muslims that live in Egypt currently have zero historic connection to the people who built the Pyramids. Actually, Muslims are known to destroy buildings and works of art that came before their Muslim era. Remember the eons-old giant Buddhas carved into the cliffs in Afghanistan? The ones the stinking Talibs blew the up?
- bkVII, on 11/11/2009, -0/+2lol
- darkz77, on 11/11/2009, -2/+4these are not your artifacts to keep... let me guess you are okay with the Iraqi occuptation because " we are saving them from themselves"
trying to police the world again i see. - darkz77, on 11/11/2009, -1/+3way to speak about ***** you dont understand.. and this is coming from an egyptian... i dont give a ***** about the artifacts but dont speak about coptics and how they are treatred unless you know what you are talking about. coptics and muslims in the south have always fought but it never had anything to do with religion. huge families fighting one another. very common in the parts of egypt that are yet to reach the 20th century. there has also been some clashes in the Alexandia lately betwen muslims and coptics but once again it was over some mulim beating up a christian or the otehr way around .. i dont remember.
- lolerskate, on 11/11/2009, -10/+11Maybe Egypt should remember that history is for all to learn and see.
- danj484, on 11/11/2009, -0/+1Britain's posession of Egpytian antiquities is a tricky situation. Most of the stuff they have was taken when GB had imperial control over Egypt, and as such, the international authorities that deal with this sort of thing can't really claim that it's stolen, per se.
- darkz77, on 11/11/2009, -1/+2@eh123.. how so
my argument is.. you are assuming that the western world is a better keeper of the artifacts because those "backward people" cannot take care of themselves. the same argument was made when iraq was invaded to "protect them "
you are living proof why americans are viewed as arrogant folk around the world... - SteveMTyler, on 11/12/2009, -0/+1do you know what a zero sum game is?
- writie, on 11/11/2009, -2/+3Look up Wahabism and the Emirates and come back and join the discussion. And using "racial and cultural" relations as a basis of ownership is debatable. It would mean large parts of the world are up for grabs.
- joneschall, on 11/12/2009, -0/+0This is a complex question that I (a lifelong, armchair Egyptologist) have been pondering for decades. The issue of laws was brought up by another commenter. In regard to most of the disputed items, there were no antiquities laws in place when the objects in question were removed from the country (then a colonial province of England or an occupied territory of France.) In regard to items "Post Tut", the Egyptian and international laws are clear and anything removed should be repatriated, post haste.
However, we have a larger question of "protection" and conservation. The reality is that no single country or culture has the corner on the market. Any nation can quickly deteriorate (politically, socially, culturally) into a catastrophe of cultural decline. The west, certainly has a very mixed record on this issue. Remember that in the UK it was common to burn Egyptian mummy's for fuel in the 19th century (or use them for parlor trick entertainment, then dispose of them in the rubbish bin on Saturday night after the guests had departed.) Similarly, the United States has made a tragedy of Native American cultural relics. While it's true that the Middle East has a horrific record (broadly speaking) of protecting and honoring its ancient cultural heritage, its also true the Egypt has made tremendous strides recently in attempting to bring its conservation methods, storage and museum displays up to a world class standard. (Although they still have a lot of work to do, specifically in regards to dismantling that frigging dam at Aswan in order to lower the water table and preserve what's still undiscovered.)
That said, the current regime in Egypt is tenuous (at best), and what follows is anyone's guess. It will be a loss of unprecedented proportions (on the scale of the burning of the Library at Alexandria?) if the Cairo Museum, the Temple complexes and other treasures of Ancient Egypt, fall under the power of a radical form of Islam such as we have seen in other, more radicalized nations. (Not to mention the general civil unrest that devastated the museums of Iraq in the aftermath of the US invasion... another giant pox on the face of the United States.)
Therefore, after tremendous thought on this issue, I have personally come to the conclusion that a "distributed" model (not so different than open source software) should be maintained. It's better to have a wide variety of antiquities from all cultures distributed globally, so that as upheaval in one place threatens or destroys selections in one location, other locations can remain safe havens of sorts.
No single nation, no race, no culture, has ultimate rights to the cradle works of civilization. We all share them and we all have the responsibility to protect them. - IKORKYI, on 11/11/2009, -1/+1Not unless he gives you permission to dig and keep what you find...until he discovers its value and flops.
- Aliwalla, on 11/11/2009, -2/+2How many people go to London every year? How many people go to Memphis (egypt) every year?
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- eh123, on 11/11/2009, -3/+1You are living proof of why we should not send any artifacts back to muslim countries, Ahmad. Look at the irrational arguments you are making.
- termerjur, on 11/11/2009, -5/+3The advance of social communication technologies empowers the interests of previously exploited peoples. There is still much further to go (particularly in Africa - the perennial target of western interests and assumptions) but the world public can now more directly participate in rectifying the abuse of governing powers. Back room policy arrangements and stiff arm politics are less functional these days.
This drama with Egypt is just one example. Egypt of course has a need to rationally negotiate but it is their art, culture and history. They have the right to seek a more equitable balance with the admiration/envy of the rest of the world.
But I hope they wont take it too far - after all they too have been an exploitative governing power even while in a state of artful grandeur and dominance. There is plenty of cause for the good-will interest of mutual give and take. - saigumi, on 11/11/2009, -4/+2If the Egyptians spent million of dollars and the time involved to find a copy of the constitution, they can display it in their museum.
Is it ok for the US then to demand it back for free? - Aliwalla, on 11/11/2009, -8/+5If you take the rosetta stone and put in a museum in Egypt no one will ever see it. Where it is now, in the world's capital and free to see by anyone, is exactly where it should be.
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