What is Digg?108 Comments
- GrandmaSheila, on 01/25/2008, -20/+51This is a breathtaking, inspiring and righteous read! I'm sending it everywhere, to people who need to be reminded that you cannot govern without the consent of the governed. The Palestinian people are an example to the world of resistance against the tyranny of illegal occupation, that we can all learn from.
- inactive, on 01/25/2008, -2/+13You mean you want bloody genocide?
- diggstown, on 01/25/2008, -4/+13I bet you're a pleasant person to be around. I wonder if you have the chutzpah to talk like that in person - that is, without a bomb strapped to your chest.
- Albionshores, on 01/25/2008, -4/+13Some don't, most do.
On both sides. - foopirata, on 01/25/2008, -1/+9by voting en masse on an organization which promotes the destruction of a neighbor in their CHARTER, they sided up with their positions - therefore they're cumplices in their doing.
A guerrilla or "freedom fight" movement only thrives with the support of the population. If Gazans want change they'll have to operate it themselves - there is no outside power in the world that can legitimately tell them what to do. They'll have to depose their terrorist leaders and uphold a moderate government willing to talk, all by their own sweet selves. - wpi97, on 01/25/2008, -1/+9"if a canadian committed violence over the border like in your example, the united states would punish that person, not the entire town he came from..."
And how would the US get the person responsible, if I may ask? To keep the analogy valid, we have to stipulate that the Canadian government is supporting this person in every possible way, so asking it nicely to apprehend the criminal and hand him over would not work. What action do you think the US would take in this case, and what "collateral damage" do you expect it to cause? - qwertymeister, on 01/25/2008, -4/+12Conflict seems to be the status quo there.
I think perhaps that many of them don't even want peace... - wpi97, on 01/25/2008, -1/+8"Do you support punishing the American people in the manner that the Palestinians are being punished?" Other countries are free to stop trading with the US whenever they want. Was the Oil Embargo in 1973 not an example of collective punishment of the US? Did Denmark not get punished when it lost millions of dollars in trade because a newspaper published some cartoons?
Americans do not receive international aid. Palestinians do. If an entire society is funded by charity, is it not reasonable for the aid to stop if it becomes a safe haven for terrorists?
"Delving into history doesn't help the people suffering now. Sure, we can go that route and end up arguing about it until the cows come home, but at the end of the day the Palestinians are still suffering."
So, let us continue this line of reasoning. What has to happen for the Palestinians to stop suffering?
1) Palestinian terrorists must stop trying to kill Jews.
2) Palestinian leadership must recognize Israel's right to exist, and start working towards a peaceful resolution of the conflict in good faith.
3) Palestinian leadership must use the money they are given for the needs of their people and for building infrastructure instead of pocketing it or using it to train and equip terrorists.
Conclusion: nobody can help the Palestinians, until the Palestinians help themselves. - dinostabOMG, on 01/25/2008, -7/+14His declaration is very different from what I'm guessing you're implying, which is the oft-cited Zionist propagandism that there are no real Palestinians. Mohsen is saying that Palestinian nationalism is a response to the European colonialist basis of Zionism. Nationalism is a foreign idea in most Middle-Eastern cultures, including Palestine. The borders were carved up by European imperialists.
The leap that Zionist propagandists make is that this lack of native nationalism in Arabs and especially Palestinians means that the people involved have no rights. This is obviously absurd and frankly very sinister in intent. - hadees, on 01/25/2008, -0/+7The reason isn't that Palestinians are inherently bad it is simply that Palestinians suffering makes a wonderful distraction for countries who violently suppress their people. It is for that reason that the Arab nations refuse to treat them like equals. Keep them suffering in camps in their own countries and then parade them out as soon as your own population gets restless.
- zappa717, on 01/25/2008, -5/+12no - sounds like MSM to me
- fadeout, on 01/25/2008, -2/+9Why is that the Palestinians "taking their own fate in their hands" always involves blowing something up?
- foopirata, on 01/25/2008, -4/+11Sorry, kooft, but there I have to call you on. They're very vocal in saying they want no part of being Israeli. Those that do want are Israeli Arabs and they live very well in Israel. Some thousands of Palestinians in East Jerusalem are requesting Israeli citizenship, though.
- mknoll1, on 01/25/2008, -4/+11This is ridiculous. The Palestininans as a group voted in an election and with their actions to continue the violence against Israel. As a result there have been consequences. The palestinian people have willfully and repeatedly engaged in terrorism against Israel. You bet your ass that if a Canadian came across the border one time and blew up a pizza shop that the entire 48th parallel would become a fence within the year. Time after time Israeli concessions are met with increased not decreased violence. Palestinians have gone so far as to smuggle people and weapons in Ambulance. As a result there have been instances when ambulances were held up at the border crossings. This was inevitably spun as an Israeli refusal to allow medical treatment for palestinians. The palestinian people must as a society agree to treat all human life with respect before they receive the same courtesy. There are only so many times that the hand of friendship can be extended and slapped away before it is not longer extended.
Furthermore the lunacy of coopting of the palestinian plight by radical muslims as a rational for their antisemitism is laid bare by these events. THe fact is that the smallest country in the region is being asked to accept a violent uncivilized group of people into their country at the same time that their "Arab Brothers" refuse to. Until the Arab countries make a commitment to accepting these people into their societies they have no basis to criticize Israel for not accepting them.
Finally, do not forget that the disputed territory was captured by Isreal in a DEFENSIVE war. Israel was attacked by it's neighbors and as a result won the West Bank, Gaza, The Sinai, and the Golan Heights. Again if Canada invaded the US you can bet your ass that they would be raising the Stars and Stripes and singing America the Beautiful in Toronto within the year. - tomasII, on 01/25/2008, -2/+8No it's the Egyptians who will repair the wall. You see they don't want the Palestinians either.
- kp998, on 01/25/2008, -7/+13Power to the people!
- redmonkey, on 01/25/2008, -2/+8New development: Group of Palestinians open fire on Egypt police, 22 Egypt policemen was wounded.
Curious, what is going to be Egypt government reaction? - nepawoods, on 01/25/2008, -10/+16The "Palestinians" won't move into Egypt, or anywhere else. They are Egyptians that Egypt doesn't want (Jordanians that Jordan doesn't want, etc.). They are there to cause unrest. That is their reason for being. They don't want peace.
- Albionshores, on 01/25/2008, -8/+14And should I now be accused now of being anti-Israeli, let me point out that I wish to empower moderates on both sides to further peace:
Israeli humanitarian group B'Tselem:
http://tinyurl.com/6b5w5
Israeli Defense Forces against occupation of the OT Yesh Gvul:
http://tinyurl.com/yr8rrp
Palestinian and Israeli non-violence group Combatants for Peace:
http://tinyurl.com/ekwxj
International peace movement (founded in Israel) Women In Black: http://tinyurl.com/bdsge
Palestinian representation of Women in Black and a moderate Israeli reporter (ex-IDF) writing for the Guardian newspaper:
http://tinyurl.com/create.php - foopirata, on 01/25/2008, -0/+6"In approaching Israel and addressing them they recognise them, even if it is only in some part. That in itself is a movement away from the charter. If they then also said they were willing to attend peace talks, discussion, compromise, further recognition; holding a past charter in their face at that stage is not appropriate. They have just acknowledged change."
My gosh you can whitewash away murder. So...all these implied and subtle little
signs should override the fact that daily they demand the destruction of Israel
and daily they act upon that demand? Is that what you're saying? That your
interpretation of reality should override...reality?
"Beyond that you have now scrabbled back as far as you can go. You are no longer arguing because you believe you are right, but arguing because you don't want to be shown to be wrong."
I love how you establish whatever you want and call it real. I can only see one
person here pedalling as fast as they can to cover reality, and that's you. Now
that it's known that the "crisis" was manipulated, now that we know that the "me
etings at candle light" were ran in the middle of the day, and that the "food" a
nd "medicine" bought in Egypt were TVs and mobile phones....Albionshores still s
ticks to his version of reality.
"Conversation beyond this point is now largely pointless, you have begun to argue irrationally, arguing for the sake of arguing and by virtue of that you will have stopped listening to reason if you ever were. It would be irrational therefore for me to follow you into such a conversation."
"Boo boo I'll take my ball and go home and nobody else gets to play."
I'll will now leave you to say whatever you will say to try save face.....
Well, Albi-boy, "saving face" is an artifact left to those who care. The likes o
f you, Digg-whores that live for the thumbs up and the digg and the frontpage. I
couldn't care less what you and anyone else thinks...so I don't have to "save f
ace". The quicker you get that into your thick skull - the faster you'll see tha
t there are other things out there but Digg. - Barbosa, on 01/25/2008, -4/+10Implied here: "I wish to empower moderates on both sides to further peace"
- wpi97, on 01/25/2008, -1/+7http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
- redmonkey, on 01/25/2008, -6/+12Palestinian journalists: Hamas staged blackouts
http://www.digg.com/world_news/Hamas_staged_some_b ... - DreadPirate, on 01/26/2008, -0/+5A ceasefire with Hamas is a remarkably flexable thing. Within *hours* of Hamas signing a ceasefire with Fatah, the two of them were fighting again. If I were Israel, I sure as hell wouldn't trust Hamas to hold up their end of any bargain without the severe threat of force to be used when the agreement was broken.
- mishmish48, on 01/25/2008, -2/+7Um then who are the 5Million + refugees on the borders waiting to come back to their homes which they have the keys too. Its a poor excuse for isreal's inhuman treatment of PEOPLE.
- Albionshores, on 01/25/2008, -5/+10So what went wrong Christmas Eve 2007?
http://tinyurl.com/yqoolj - Albionshores, on 01/25/2008, -6/+11All deplorable. But one humanitarian disaster does not justify another. Jews fought back in the Warsaw Uprising - you wouldn't try and use that to justify the holocaust or the necessity for having Jewish ghettos in the Third Reich would you?
Precisely. - typicalusername, on 01/25/2008, -5/+10Why is no one bringing up the point that even their own Arab people don't want the Palestinians? They are in that position because they are unwanted by even their own faith and people... Usually, when a people who are unwanted by ANY country, there's a reason why.
- zappa717, on 01/25/2008, -1/+6this one is gone?
- redmonkey, on 01/25/2008, -1/+6Ethnic cleansing is when you remove population from some territory. You are using wrong term here. Israel is controlled all borders.
Most of sources you quoted known by their anti-Israel bias, special Guardian. Raid in Gaza was started ONLY AFTER rockets start fired from Gaza. Israel left Gaza in hope to reach peace and what they get?
No electricity - 70% of Gaza electricity coming from Israel even terrorists sending rockets in power plant that produce electricity for Gaza.. Now, god forbid, rocket would hit this Power plant and it stop work. Will you blame Israel for Gaza electricity shortage? I am sure, you will.
By the way, why you think all European country voted present in last UN resolution against Israel? Because any normal country would not allow other to fire rockets to their territory.
Hamas proposal ceasefire is not exactly correct. Hamas proposal hudna. By Islamic law you could break it any time.
And all words about collective punishment is pathetic. None country in the world WILL NOT PROVIDE ENEMY with supplies. EXCEPT ISRAEL. Israel still sends electricity,water to Gaza.
What other option Israel has? Military operation. But If Israel start it, IT would be world wide cry for poor Palestinian.
And last. Palestinian continue firing rockets and terror against Israel because people like you.They know, they could conduct any type of atrocity and still would have support from people like you. - Waiting2awake, on 01/25/2008, -8/+13Just sad. After all this time Spaza still doesn't get it.
On a brighter note - Good for the Palestinians. I hope most live to see justice done. - foopirata, on 01/25/2008, -2/+6so...you think that violence is the answer for every wrong in the world, real or perceived? do tell.
- tomasII, on 01/25/2008, -5/+9Oh that's unusual, an ignorant anti semite on Digg. Isn't it time for your daily prayers to Mohammad?
- wpi97, on 01/27/2008, -0/+4"Not all Palestinians are trying to kill Jews, only small extremist element is."
Do you have the actual numbers for the "extremist element" among the Palestinians? I do not, so I have to go by other indicators, such as the fact that Hamas won the election by a landslide, and the fact that there are a great many terrorist organizations (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Al Aksa Martyrs, Tanzim, etc.) The fact that there are so many terrorist organizations, and the fact that there is no moderate Palestinian party, unless you count Fatah, tells us that the idea of destroying Israel is not that unpopular among the Palestinians.
I never said that all Palestinians are trying to kill Jews, but the number of those that do appears to be significant, and so far the Palestinians who do not try to kill Jews make no effort of stopping those who do.
"The end result is that innocent civilians are being punished."
You have to face the fact that Gaza is de facto independent, and is at war with Israel. During war innocent civilians suffer. That is a tragedy, but it is a fact of life, and the responsibility for it lies with the aggressor, i. e. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. in this case. It is absurd to say that it is Israel's responsibility to supply Gaza with electricity and food, just like it is absurd to say that Britain should have been supplying Germany during WWII. During WWII innocent Germans suffered. But the responsibility for their suffering lies with the government of Germany, not with the allies.
"Isn't this one of the key points in the ongoing negotiations for peace?"
How does your statement make sense? How can mutual recognition and an agreement to tolerate each other, once the negotiations are complete, be a key point in the negotiations? It must be a prerequisite! When two sides negotiate peace, they negotiate who gets which chunk of land, what happens to the population, compensations, troops deployment, etc. But the very fact that a peace negotiation is taking place must mean that the two sides in principle agree to live in peace, i. e. recognize each other's right to exist, once certain conditions are met You cannot have peace talks where one side keeps stating that it will still destroy the other in the long run no matter what!
"We all know politicians are generally scum who have no interest but their own."
So, does this mean that nobody is responsible for anything? The people are not responsible, because whoever they elect are going to be scum, right? The politicians are not responsible, because they are scum, and they don't know any better, right? Nobody is responsible for the terrorists, because, according to you, they are a small element. In the mean time rockets keep falling on Sderot and Ashkelon. Let us just wait until someone comes along, and straightens out the corrupt Palestinian society and weeds out the "small" terrorist element. Until that happens the people of Sderot should take their chances, right?
"Why mask your beliefs with such a statement? Why not come out and say what you feel, "make the innocent suffer until the criminals relent"?"
No, these are not my beliefs at all. My belief is that when the ruling party of an area fires rockets into civilian population of a neighboring country - it is called an act of war, and the said party should expect a response, which normally does not include electricity, fuel, and food from the country they just attacked.
I also have a belief that Israel has already recognized the right of the Palestinians for self-determination several times by agreeing to the UN partition plan of 1947, by offering Arafat a state in 2000, and by withdrawing from Gaza in 2005. Any one of these actions could have at least become a basis for the negotiations if the other side was willing. I believe now it is up to the Palestinians to start being proactive about peace, and I think the three points from the previous post would be a good start. - nepawoods, on 01/25/2008, -12/+15"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
--- 1977, Zuheir Mohsen, a Palestinian leader of the as-Sa'iqa faction of the PLO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen - redmonkey, on 01/25/2008, -4/+7Why is Hamas refusing to recignize Israel and stop terror?
- foopirata, on 01/26/2008, -2/+5Humanitarian mission is giving them food, not explosives they smuggle masked as food.
"Besides the Israeli administration has a duty to supply because it controls their harbours". It's called an embargo. They seem to have a very active border with Egypt. Let Egypt provide for them, since Egypt is not under fire.
"Their land," - they got it in 2005. Used it to launch rockets from day 0. You are dishonest if you're unable to see this.
"Control of their borders" - they seem to have it all pretty much under control, as Mr. Mubarak would probably agree.
"Stop destroying their infrastructure" - sure, as soon as they stop using it to make and fire rockets.
"Go home to Israel" - we are home in Israel, thank you very much. - phnx0221, on 01/25/2008, -11/+14This was a great article celebrating the ability of an oppressed people to stand tall against those oppressing them. We can learn from this. If people who are facing so much devastation, so much anger, and so much hate, can stand against those inflicting it upon them...we can do the same. We must support these people. They do want peace, just as much of the Israeli population wants peace. It is highly unfortunate that their governments (as all people in power do under such circumstances) who came into power based on a stance that they could end the attacks, and bring peace to these people, have not done so. In fact, they seek to exacerbate the problems by claiming neither side has a right to exist, and must be moved away as undesirable and less then human.
Honestly, I don't know what will bring peace to these people. I do know what won't. Billions of dollars in military funding from a superpower, military training and backed oppression from that same superpower, will not bring peace. Stifled humanitarian efforts will not bring peace. I think it is only when both sides are on a level playing field, that both may be able to work for peaceful resolutions that actually will benefit both sides. I don't know if that will happen, or if there is another way that will stop the slaughter, terror, and fear of the people, that won't strictly be based on what works best for each government. Regardless, it has to be the PEOPLE, not the weapons, not the governments, not the might, and not the "influence" which comes with the backing of the worlds biggest superpower. I applaud the Palestinians for standing up, and taking that step...again. - kooft, on 01/25/2008, -5/+8"let the people who have been there and done that do the talking."
Going to Israel makes you an expert on Palestinians? Are you serious? Go spend a few months in Gaza and then you can come back here and claim to have more pertinent knowledge than others, until then you've got to back up your arguments with sources just like everyone else. - hadees, on 01/25/2008, -3/+6There is not doubt there is a humanitarian crisis unfolding just doubt on who is causing it. You claim to be moderate yet you refuse to acknowledge that there is growing evidence Hamas may be increasing the crisis for their own political gain.
- foopirata, on 01/25/2008, -3/+6Dude, only thing "moderate" about Albionshores is his relationship with reality.
- foopirata, on 01/25/2008, -3/+6HAMAS CHARTER:
Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
-------------------------
People willing to discuss and stick by cease-fires don't have this type of language on their charters. That you choose to willingly ignore this only puts you smack in bed with terrorists and assassins.
Moderation comes from the roots, not from lip service. If Hamas would truly moderate itself one would think their highly offensive charter would be the place to start.
But they clearly announce to the four winds their truth; you choose to ignore because you don't care about what happens to Israel. - phnx0221, on 01/25/2008, -9/+11That was an inspiring comment, and I am glad that it was the first to be posted. After reading this article, those were my same sentiments, although you put it much clearer and more concise than I could have. I hope to see you around here more often. :)
- kooft, on 01/25/2008, -4/+6Perhaps a large majority of the 8 million Palestinians don't want to return to Israel, but at least 10% of them do. Those 800,000 should be allowed to return and aren't being granted that wish. This means that Israel is part of the problem that nepawoods attributed entirely to Arab states. I'm not laying the blame entirely at the feet of Israel, only pointing out that being Israeli doesn't absolve you from blame or responsibility.
As for the rest that don't wish to return, the ones that had actual property which was confiscated by Israel, they should be compensated and until they are Israel is an even greater part of the problem than they have to be. - Albionshores, on 01/25/2008, -14/+16Ok before anybody tries to rationalise collective punishment and argue Palestinians (all 1.5 million of them) deserve everything they get until they down rockets.
Google.
Is.
Your.
Friend.
http://tinyurl.com/26xfsx - Beveridge89, on 01/26/2008, -0/+2I would have them get those resources from Egypt all the time- why should Israel give aid to a group of people who elect militants who proclaim there destruction.
- hadees, on 01/25/2008, -4/+6Guess some people don't like the truth. I dugg it though.
- redmonkey, on 01/25/2008, -3/+5When people is really hungry they bring back food, not TV sets, Mobil phones, etc.
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