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216 Comments
- Lucas123, on 03/06/2009, -17/+90I've seen economists try to make this comparison before. I don't think it works. The USSR had a state-controlled, insular system based on socialist competition with free labor. The U.S. operates a free market system based on worldwide competition and supply and demand. While you can compare military spending and even inflation, private corporations in the U.S. profit when military spending goes up. The military industrial machine fed a lot of the heavy industrial growth in the USSR, so when the government could no longer afford to build, the economy suffered. While the U.S. heavy industrial machine profits from military spending, it's not as dependent on it. The USSR also tanked on consumer goods production because it wasn't able to predict demand as a free-market system allows you to do from the bottom up and not the top down. I don't believe we're headed for an economic implosion. This too will pass.
- AManWithNoName, on 03/06/2009, -7/+52I've got an interesting story. A few months ago, there were some political science students from Russia speaking at my JC. I went to see them speak, and at the end, they answered some questions from the audience. Somebody asked if they thought America might turn to communism if our economy collapsed completely. One of the Russian students simply replied "America can't collapse, if they do, the world collapses with them."
I'm not entirely sure if I agree with him, but it's kinda crazy to imagine how important our country is in the world today. - inactive, on 03/07/2009, -2/+37At least a sizable portion of the Russian population grew their own food. In the United States, 1% of the nation's population are farmers, who feed the other 99% of us; and they aren't small, family owned farms, but the argocorporations.
In WW2, Victory gardens produced ~40% of vegetable produce consumed nationally.
Maybe it's time to bring those back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden#cite_n ... - Dignan666, on 03/07/2009, -4/+38Y'all act like you've never seen a recession before.
- michaelpinto, on 03/06/2009, -11/+39Russia in the 90s is nothing like the US in 2009 - even if things get much worse, things are much more stable than Russia during that time. Frankly Russia may collapse again because unlike the US it's making real money from exporting oil - and that's the only thing powering their economy.
- theberlindoctor, on 03/06/2009, -2/+26All I can say is that I don't know whats going to happen. Grim or not, its best to plan for the worst.
Looks like I'll be planning a Victory garden this weekend. - webslave1, on 03/07/2009, -2/+23There is an old African saying, America sneezes and the world catches a cold
- inactive, on 03/07/2009, -3/+22"but it's kinda crazy to imagine how important our country is in the world today."
That's what every empire says. Could anyone 50 years ago imagine a world without the USSR, or that it would fall before the 21st century arrived? Not many believed it could happen, but it did, and the world moved on.
Even empires that were seen as the economic center of the world have fallen or undergone dramatic changes in their role: The Mongols who controlled central, east, and parts of west Asia, The Persian Empire, the Roman Empire, the British Empire, etc...
I agree that it would be devastating on a massive scale, but the world would move on, if people didn't nuke it to hell first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empir ... - hugolp, on 03/07/2009, -9/+26The US a free market? Dont make me laugh. You have the FED that is a central bank wich regulates the value of money that is half of every transaction. You have lots of regulations in any area.
The USA has been a mixed-economy (and not a free market) for almost a 100 years now. - katana0182, on 03/07/2009, -16/+33This is the Russians committing the sin of mirror imaging.
The US has few parallels to the USSR. Before Lenin, all that Russia had known was dictatorship; after Lenin, all that the USSR knew was dictatorship. Authoritarianism is etched deeply into the Soviet soul. Democracy is etched deeply into our national character. Our police apparatus is not nearly as oppressive as the USSR's was; for instance, we have a separate national police (the FBI) from our spy agency (the CIA). The KGB treated everyone alike - foreigners and Soviets, because they were all potential threats. We don't have national minorities that want to split off into 13 new countries. We never had a Stalin who murdered millions - followed by the Second World War, which killed 20+ million Soviets.
Because of this history of tragedy, authoritarianism, and separatism, the essential character of the Soviet was grim and fatalistic. Their country reflected its grimness and fatalism, and when the winds of history blew hard upon the USSR's body politic, it broke instead of bending.
But for us, when the winds of history blow harshly upon our nation, we bend with them. When we were oppressed by the agents of George the 3rd, king of England, we threw him out in a Revolutionary War, and declared the law king of America. When the slave-power of the South stamped a totalitarian bootheel upon the ideals of the Declaration of Independence, and turned the Constitution into a mockery, we had a Civil War, for the principle that all were born equal, and retained certain inalienable rights. When the royalists of capitalism threatened to liquidate and auction off America itself for the sake of their mansions during the Great Depression, we wrote a New Deal, balancing economic freedom and economic justice. When tyranny from both East and West threatened turn the world into an Orwellian nightmare, murdered tens of millions in cold blood, and promised not to end until the last light of liberty was snuffed out on the far shores of America, we fought them, both at once, and we, along with our allies, won the Second World War.
We overcame all these challenges not just by being powerful, but by being right, and using the power we had in pursuit of justice for all.
To the foreigner, to the Russian, our character might seem fickle and flighty, hopelessly optimistic, idealistic, mindlessly democratic, divisive, individualistic, wavering, questioning, absurd. But deep below the fat covering the body of Uncle Sam, deep below the flesh, there is a skeleton of tempered steel, one that has seen far worse than the current crisis, one that can see far worse crises if that is the hand that history deals it. We will bend instead of breaking, we will seize the day, and we will make our own future.
Unlike the USSR, we are no dying empire. We are a republic being reborn. - offrdbandit, on 03/07/2009, -1/+17They haven't.
- inactive, on 03/07/2009, -3/+18If you read only one chapter in Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" read the chapter on Russia.
- yaosio, on 03/07/2009, -3/+18We sure did collapse in the 70's when all those were true.
- TheNik, on 03/07/2009, -1/+16We're taking you down with us, Canada.
- SarcasticEye, on 03/07/2009, -1/+14That's an African saying?
- inactive, on 03/07/2009, -2/+15No empire that existed 2000 years ago exists today.
The closest institution that has existed that long is the Roman Catholic Church, and while its belief system still does influence the world today, it hasn't really been able to call itself an empire since at the very latest around 1453.
All empires end. - AManWithNoName, on 03/06/2009, -25/+37As much as I hate to admit it, America is long overdue for a collapse of power, and signs are pointing toward that happening within our lifetimes. We've been the most powerful country in the world for almost a century now, and we've had the same government system for well over 200 years.
It's still a bit early to say we're definitely going to collapse, but it's not an unrealistic thought. - shupy, on 03/07/2009, -5/+16Get off the Socialist thing. It is a right wing talking point.
The only ones praying for America to fail are the sore losers of the right wing.
The big problem facing America is that we have stopped manufacturing and our main export has become money. Now that our unregulated banking system has once again demonstrated that greed overules common sense, we are again suffering the consequences. There has never been a truly capitalist or truly socialist society. The most successful countries are a blending of the two systems.
Those who lament the "free market" don't seem to recognize that we have NEVER had a truly free market. All markets function within a framework of laws. - KSUdesigner, on 03/07/2009, -1/+12You'll hate it a lot more if it does collapse.
- str3ama, on 03/07/2009, -4/+14now it's time for the USSR to resurrect. You didn't actually think they were truly disbanded did you? They've just been hiding.
Queue to the Simpsons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AljVNcZ-G58 - inactive, on 03/07/2009, -3/+13Another Digg EXPERT speaks out!
- ajonsey, on 03/07/2009, -1/+10China has not 'persisted'
China went through around 13 different dynasties under different ethnicities and powers(read: seperate empires), have had dozens of civil wars and catastrophic struggles, was esentially run by European empires and Japan up the 20th century, and then went under a communist revolution to become a state very different from what it was from before.
Saying China now is like China then is like try to prove that the current Italy is the same as the Roman Kingdom - oxdeltaxo, on 03/07/2009, -3/+12Yes because Russia doesn't still have a ton of nukes...
/s - inactive, on 03/07/2009, -0/+9One of the most important aspects of a governmental or economic collapse is its impact on the citizens to provide for their basic needs, like food, shelter, safety, etc...
- anixmander, on 03/07/2009, -0/+9Only if I run out of shotgun shells and the zombies do catch up to me.
- inactive, on 03/07/2009, -0/+8And pretty much spot-on right.
The US betrayed the free world, in the most vile, insidious way possible. America stabbed the democracies of the world in the back with a poisoned knife. Twice, voting for the imbecile.
We won't forget. - durruticolumn, on 09/18/2009, -2/+10
I think our collapse will more closely follow Britain's than Russia's. Not with a bang, but with a whisper. - Lisztman, on 03/07/2009, -1/+9You are clearly not familiar with the nature of the operations of the U.S.
While the states enjoy a good deal of autonomy, the people in all states share a considerable amount of personal ownership in the union as a whole. Most people acknowledge that there are regional differences, but not one of them (excepting the "free staters" in New Hampshire) have any interest in ceding from the union. National identity outstrips state identity in the population. All inter-regional political battles that get waged are allowed a method of venting themselves through the process of elections. The allowed shifts back and forth between opposing political inclinations prevents these differences from reaching any critical mass, preventing any destabilizing revolutions like was seen in the times of the Civil War.
The USSR had aggressively and invasively annexed many of the satellite states, and enforced it through military and political control. Amongst the population, there was only a fragile sense of identity in the USSR if even that. Cultural identity was very strong in each of these nations, and in turn national identity, which vastly outweighed their sense of ownership of the USSR as a union. When the finally-freed press(Thanks Gorbachev) got loose, the news showed a far dismal picture of the state of the union than what the state controlled news had led most to believe. When that happened, confidence in the benefits of remaining in the union dissolved, and the satellite states ceded.
Now do you get it? - majortom1981, on 03/07/2009, -1/+9A lot of people grow their own food. I wish I could but I live in an appartment so i cant.
- Gloony, on 03/07/2009, -0/+7Bravo, very dramatic, however I can think of another zealously democratic empire who brought civilisation to the world and peace to 2 continents - and some of the most bloody wars and misguided social integration attempts the world has ever seen.
It was Rome. - inactive, on 03/07/2009, -10/+17It's like the collapse of Digg. At one time, it attracted a technical and funny fan base. Now it's filled with spam, power users, and people gaming the system to buy their way to the top. Oh, and the majority of comments have been reduced to unfunny one-liners. It's only a matter of time before Digg throws in the towel, as no one will pay a penny for a "business" that loses money every year.
Go foward my Digg sheep and Digg me down! - joeisacoolguy, on 03/07/2009, -1/+8I read the whole book, what a phenomenal, eye opening excellent piece of journalism. Can't say enough about how everyone should read this book.
- tekgnos, on 03/07/2009, -0/+7"which the UK govt now ownes lock stock and barrel through thier stock holding of the USA banks"
What? Because US bank stocks are worth so much? - ShyGuy91284, on 03/07/2009, -1/+8I'm not sure if I think we are going to collapse like the USSR did, but I think this is more than a normal recession. Anyone who knows more about the topic and has gone through other recessions please enlighten me if I am wrong, but with GM dying, many banks only still kicking due to government intervention, resources becoming more scare and in demand globally, the healthcare crisis worse than ever due to the increasingly horrible health of Americans, and China basically being the backbone of the US economy, things seem like they have great potential to get far worse. Even if this could be just a normal recession, it seems to me like we have too many things in the pot that are starting to bubble over, and it won't take much more for it to boil over and change the life of every American citizen. It almost seems to me the best we can hope for at this time is that selfishly we can postpone the inevitable so that future generations would need to deal with this crap, not us.
- TheNik, on 03/07/2009, -2/+9If that's what it takes to get rid of the religious right, I'm in. I'd love to see a Mad Max-style world. :D
- inactive, on 03/07/2009, -1/+8- Being positively loathed in the eyes of the rest of the world
- A population divided into bitter hatred factions
- A people empowered to think a widescreen plasma TV is their divine right
- A population which outsourced any real world skill abroad and trained in nothing useful as a replacement
- A political order which has no mercy, humanity, based on ruthlessness, competition and social darwinism
- A population that is chronicly overweight and unable to walk 500 meters before having a heart attack.
- Highest levels of medicine and antidepressant use in history.
- 3 millions of really angry men in prison, all career criminals by now, whereas prisons soon become unsustainable.
- A corporate oligarchic elite with absolutely no ethics, morality, compassion or humanity.
- Over a million well trained soldiers who will be unemployed soon and looking for income
- An extensive and sinister network of rightwing ex-drug enforcement militias crisscrossing the country, soon without a job.
- About 2,5 heavy firearms per person.
- Being pathologically in debt to known, sworn enemies of everything you stand for (saudi, chinese)
- A culture of denying facts, reason and science
- A youth generation all but completely based on escapism, sloth, consumerism, conceit, arrogance and debts
- Climate problems that will strike the US real hard, (even if the cause is not CO2 emissions)
- An infrastructure and city lay out system based on oil, which will unaffordable pretty soon
- A population demographic with WAY to many old people that haven't worked hard labour in decades, many dependent on heavy medical care
- Teeming criminal networks south of the border, soon without cocaine income, desperately looking for new revenues
- Highest violent crime rates all throughout the country, even without rampant poverty
- A culture riddled with privacy, aloofness, isolation and social detachment
- A population of immigrants with no shared identity or cultural context
- Large parts of natural resources depleted and whole stretches of country polluted and unsuitable for agriculture
- Millions and millions of ***** poor people south of the border just itching to head north because for them even an US in a severe crisis is better than than what they got now
- Islamic factions, groups, terror sleeper cells still waiting, just itching to hand out bloody coupe de graces using biological warfare, dirty nukes or a campaign of terrorist strikes.
- an infrastructure that is (according to the governor of California) about the level of a developing country
- a complete state of distrust in the economic and financial sectors that will take years to recuperate
- a judicial culture based on conflict, litigation, destroying the other side, instead of compromise, settling disputes or cooperation.
America is in a world of hurt far far worse than anything the USSR experienced. - dengzhi, on 03/07/2009, -4/+11the 19th century belonged to England, the 20th century belonged to U.S., and the 21st century belongs to China.
- novenator, on 03/07/2009, -13/+20*****. It is already a quasi-depression, but was not caused by Obama. Partisans like you continue to try to pin the blame of this economic train wreck on the man who has only been in office for 6 weeks, when it was clearly caused by the former administration. Your spin is futile compared to the truth.
- acknotSW, on 03/07/2009, -0/+7You don't have the slightest idea of how a major collapse would affect your life. It could easily get to the point where in some areas the strong and/or better armed would make all the rules and nobody would be around to stop them. Think you would be one of them? Guess again.
- plaguester, on 03/08/2009, -1/+7Katana, you are correct that America has seen worse than the current economic "crisis", but your history is a little off.
First of all, the civil war was not about slavery. It was about the states' constitutional right to secede should they believe that the federal government is no longer acting in the interest of their people. Lincoln was one of the most tyrannical leaders that the nation has produced. He suspended habeas corpus, censored newspapers, executed "dissenters", and denied the southern states their constitutional rights. Slavery was ended in most other countries without war, and there is no reason to believe that it could not have happened here as well. Lincoln threw in the emancipation proclamation as a war strategy (it actually backfired on him when many of the slaves fought for the South).
Secondly, Herbert Hoover and FDR's administrations took a sharp recession and turned it into a depression that lasted until the end of WWII. You almost never hear about the sharp recession and stock market crash in the early 20s. That's because the leaders at that time actually had some sense and left the free market alone. By doing so, the bad credit and debt was quickly liquidated in the market and the economy bounced back in about a year. FDR, by massively expanding government, excessively spending (and printing) money, kept the economy from restoring itself for almost 15 years. The free market that made this country great has been slowly crushed under ever expanding government control and interference since the New Deal. The once fiscally responsible, small-government republicans have embraced fascism and war, while the democrats are clamoring for more socialism and welfare from the state.
Obama is simply implementing more of the same policies that got us into the mess that we're in. He's expanding government, increasing our overseas commitment, spending money that we don't have, and nationalizing institutions left and right all in the name of "stimulus". These actions will do nothing except to suppress market growth. I suppose when the market is eventually able to overcome the ridiculous actions of the Fed and congress, Obama will be praised by all the sheeple for reaching down and bringing us out. It's rather disgusting when, if just left alone, this whole thing would blow over in a 12-18 months.
I kinda hope that Obama sticks with his guns and wrecks our fiat currency and debt-driven economy. At least it would rip America off the credit drug and get us back to the sound economic principles that built this nation. - skanton, on 03/07/2009, -4/+10Actually, a dying empire is exactly what you are.
- MrFunStuff, on 03/07/2009, -13/+19"I don't believe we're headed for an economic implosion."
I would disagree.
Gerald Celente Financial Predictions Trends Forecasts Expert Lecture Economic Strategy Future Innovation Analysis Trend
Worst economic collapse ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ7LM3iyNg&fea ...
Gerald Celente Was Right !!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3DfjLCcbzw
Michael J. Panzner is a 25-year veteran of the global stock, bond, and currency markets who has worked in New York and London for HSBC
http://www.smartmoney.com/smartmoneytv/?vid=147186 ...
Be prepared!!! - offrdbandit, on 03/07/2009, -0/+6I doubt I could give a speech or lecture in Russian.
- 4321234, on 03/07/2009, -0/+6Just leave us our bacon.
- fugazied, on 03/07/2009, -3/+9Also if you want to checkout free market environmental management, go to one of those computer part 'recycling' ghettos in china with huge rates of birth defects and lead/arsenic contamination of their groundwater. The corporation does not care for the environment, they simply move to the next country with a free market and no environmental protection. The financial sector pushed for deregulation as to who it could loan money to and on what terms and look what happened. They ate themselves with their greed.
Unfettered free markets just sees corporations moving between countries chasing the most profitable country. The corporation does not care for the environment, for workers rights, for democracy. It just cares for profit and shareholder returns. - pstroll, on 03/07/2009, -11/+17It is now mathematically impossible for the US to survive. It won't be able to come close to selling the amount of bonds necessary on the global markets to meet it's debt obligations, which includes paying the interest on existing debt. It will be forced to resort to monetizing the debt for FDIC as the mega-banks become insolvent, then there are all those pension funds they will be on the hook for as part of the PBGC.
Yup, America as it stands is finished. Just another failed empire that became overspent and overextended. - majortom1981, on 03/07/2009, -0/+6The thing here that is diff america is the biggest buyer of goods from our own country and the world. The US stops buying goods other companies in other countries start doing bad.
Thats why if the US Ecconomy continues to do bad the world will suffer . - americanoboy, on 03/07/2009, -0/+6digg economist!
- error2k2, on 03/07/2009, -0/+5Yeah but it took two big bangs to get the collapse started.
- Mpwns, on 03/07/2009, -0/+5i was around for it in the 80's but i lived on fruit farm, only thing i can recall was not being able to get certain toys. i had no concept of money back then. but this time is different, it is the 3rd longest running recession since WW2 and its dragging on. the new deal has nothing on the amount of money the government is spending trying to save the markets. the arguing between the parties is also only making matters worse as well.
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