What is Digg?330 Comments
- coolian, on 10/12/2007, -43/+313Who needs a time machine when you have Saudi Arabia?
***** stone-age monkeys. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -25/+250"Unrelated men and women are forbidden from interacting in public in Saudi Arabia, which strictly enforces Islamic Sharia law."
Yeah... what does Islamic law have to do with Islam? - baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -70/+249religion of peace? NOT!
- odinsvalkyrie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+137Simply barbaric.
- otheruser, on 10/12/2007, -3/+103Disturbing as hell. I'm a Muslim, and I too find Saudi's legal system absolutely appalling.
But rather than simply cursing off an entire nation, I will provide a brief explanation.
So, what's the problem with Saudi? Wahhabism.
The Wahhabi Al-Saud family came into power in 1924, with great help from Britain, and has since ruled the entire country, forging strong alliances with most Western countries (oil ties). The Sharia system in Saudi is one from a Wahhabi perspective.... So, what exactly is "Wahhabism"?
As per wiki:
"Wahhabi theology advocates a puritanical and legalistic stance in matters of faith and religious practice, while also rejecting sufism. Wahhabis see their role as a movement to restore Islam due to innovations, deviations, heresies and idolatries. There are many practices that they believe are contrary to Islam, such as: ... (check the full wiki article)"
Most Muslims outside Saudi are NOT Wahhabi. Wahhabis are known to be severely strict in interpreting the religion, and are predominantly considered extremists - of course, the U.S. would never touch them, because they've got the oil!
There are dozens of books and documentaries which strongly suggest Saudi as the root of today's extremism - but you'll never hear a western government official agree. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -39/+137ROFL
"what does Islamic law have to do with Islam?" Pwned! - Indeed, on 10/12/2007, -10/+98Hey at least we don't support a country with such atrocious human rights....like with...arms..
"Saudi Arabia is America’s top customer. Since 1990, the U.S. government, through the Pentagon’s arms export program, has arranged for the delivery of more than $39.6 billion in foreign military sales to Saudi Arabia, and an additional $394 million worth of arms were delivered to the Saudi regime through the State Department’s direct commercial sales program during that same period. "
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm
Spreading Democracy AND Freedom!!! - rockforever, on 10/12/2007, -29/+113That'll learn her.
- wthulhu, on 08/29/2009, -2/+85It's fundamental differences between cultures like this that tell me there will never be peace in the world.
In America, for the most part, a brother would turn vigilante, or at least feel outrage and hatred towards the attackers. I, along with many other's I'm sure, do not understand the thought process that would lead a brother to *beat* his newly gang-raped sister, because she was raped. At knife point. Fourteen times. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -16/+97why do i "have to understand" that? If cultures oppress half their population -- women -- to this degree, then they're deeply immoral. Just as if countries were to oppress blacks such as in South Africa, that would be deeply immoral. You don't have to understand that "every culture is different" to make moral distinctions.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+74I'm surprised they're not now also punishing her for attempting suicide, another illegal act.
- scrag10, on 10/12/2007, -1/+68The brother needs a good kick in the face.
- goodegg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+70Let's all stop funding, indirectly, these crazy regimes.
- chicagospur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+60And the punishment for attempting suicide is .... death.
- sinfree, on 10/12/2007, -15/+72@1337Einstein
You would think if the majority of people in Islam did not condone this type of treatment that it would stop. - nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -10/+66This is kind of surprising. Normally the woman would be stoned to death.
- fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -19/+69While I agree that it's barbaric what happened to this woman, there are several inaccuracies and misrepresentations in the story:
1) The brother beat her for having an affair. She was on her way to/from one of her trysts when she was raped.
2) She was lashed for the affair, not the rape. For the record, extramarital sex is still illegal in most of the (American) Deep South, and some states specifically target adulterers. This is an important distinction, since rape is no longer a crime (for the woman) in Saudi Arabia, but adultery is still punishable by death (for both sexes, but usually the woman).
3) Stop calling Saudis monkeys. There are no native monkeys in Saudi Arabia. That is slander to those noble, hairy creatures. (Slanderous to the monkeys, I mean.) - JackPallance, on 10/12/2007, -2/+46From TFA: "...increased the number of lashes from the usual 30 to the likely lethal 90 lashes."
- tidu, on 10/12/2007, -7/+46Dunno, torture can be considered worse than murder for the lasting effect... And 90 lashes is definately torture.
- UO07, on 10/12/2007, -3/+37its lame how they treat their camels better than they treat their women.
- Civil44, on 10/12/2007, -4/+38The state itself is not the problem. Its the people who make up the state and the ethics that they bring along.
PS. Anarchy is impossible. Nihilism is the way to go if you wanna walk down that path. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -11/+43Regarding whether this type of punishment emerges from specific Saudi elements or something arising in Islam, I have no idea. Saudi Arabia, however, considers itself the "purest" Islamic state in the world, and pours hundreds of billions of dollars into Islamic mosques and centers throughout the world to spread their brand of Islam.
21 states of the world permit Judicial Corporal Punishments in the years between 1995 and 1998. There are (in alphabetical order): Afghanistan, Angola, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Iran, Jamaica, Kenya, Kyrgystan, Libya, Malaysia, Pakistan, Quartar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Uganda, United Arab Emirates (VAR) and Yemen.
That's like 18 out of 21 nations that allow corporal punishment which are Muslim.
I found that info here.
http://members.internettrash.com/rolfbmiller/engl-zuech.html - airencracken, on 10/12/2007, -3/+35Well, when you show your ankles like that you're just asking for it.
- karmic, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33"barbarism can only understand barbarism"
I find that interestingly insular - can "criminals only understand criminality"? If so, then shouldn't we only allow criminals to be on juries because they are the only people who can judge criminality.
Equivocation takes you nowhere. - SwellGuy007, on 10/12/2007, -7/+37This is not barbaric, it's Arabic. Conan would NEVER do that!
- morningmatters, on 10/12/2007, -4/+30This is pretty ***** up. It looks like Saudi Arabia is in need of a regime change.
But let's be honest here, the US won't dare to touch the house of Saud unless we figured a way to replace oil as energy means. - uttles, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27So, are you denying the reality of Sharia Law? If so, why?
- UO07, on 10/12/2007, -4/+28wow, just wow. I hope the judge gets gang raped 14 times as well.
- RiverBelow, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28That serves her right. Not a relative? I'm surprised she didn't receive even MORE lashes.
Ridiculous, the legal system in the world today. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -10/+30"Arabs only hate us b/c of our support of Israel, and they say the Jewish people run our media."
@BeyondGoodnEvil
Yes of course they hate the Joooooos, but the Jihad has been going on for 1400 years. Did they invade half the known world in the 7th century because of the Infidels "support of Israel"? Did Jihadists attack Madrid, London, Thailand, India, etc for "support of Israel"? Did Muslims riot in the streets over Danish Cartoons because of the Danes "support of Israel"
It's not the Jews, it's the Jihad. - Pfhreak, on 10/12/2007, -21/+40@sinfree
You would think that if the majority of Americans did not condone the Iraq War that it would stop. Oh, wait... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20Straight from the BBC:
"Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm
About a dozen Saudi school girls died when their school caught fire in 2003, these girls were locked in the school and prevented from being rescued because their veils were in the cloakroom. So dont talk to me about ***** moral relativism. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -5/+23"lopsided reporting practices" ? what, do i need to find a Jewish Court of Law that sentenced a rape victim to 90 lashes before I can submit this article?
I am interested in what Sharia Law means, and the jihad against infidels which was declared by Allah, transmitted thru his Prophet Muhammad, and has been going on for 1400 years. I make no apologies for that.
By all means, look at my submission history:
http://digg.com/users/AdmiralAdama/news/submitted
If I've submitted untruths, spam, or other crap please tell me. And be sure to digg a couple if you like! - draebor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22"Fuziyah al-Ouni, described as an activist by the paper, said she was outraged by the case. “By sentencing her to 90 lashes they are sending a message that she is guilty. No rape victim is guilty,” she said."
She, too, was sentenced to 90 lashes. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21Saudi Arabia is merely following the tradition laid down by The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who ordered many whippings.
For adulterers, for example, The Prophet had this to say:
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, - flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Look up "24:2" in
http://quranbrowser.com for a list of translations of this verse. - bluechips23, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Bite me for saying this, but laws based on religious principles are simply ***** UP!
- Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21I don't care what his submission history is, nor do I care if he is biased in his submissions. By and large his submissions are FACTUALLY correct.
I understand that facing something you don't understand is discomfiting for you, but you really should try and understand what the culture surrounding Islam is.
Like it or not, take the information on its merits and stop dismissing it because of its source. - d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -13/+28You know, before George W Bush proclaimed Islam a "religion of peace" there was no real historical use of this phrase.
- mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16"Yeah because all members of the muslim faith, everywhere, do this.
Of course it is a religion of peace, as are the rest of the abrahamic religions - its up to the followers to do the right thing, or to do things like what is occuring with this poor woman."
They, as a society, seem to condone this behavior. I know this because this isn't the first time we've seen these types of reports. This has been going on for years and no one there seems to be doing a whole heck of a lot to change. While not EVERYONE there supports this, it sure seems like there's a majority of people who do.
"We consider this culture backwards. They consider our culture backwards. Western woman are viewed in many of these countries to be prostitutes, because they behave in ways they would never consider.
People need to understand the difference between shame/honor based societies and right/wrong based societies. In the West we are judged whether our actions fit into 'right' and 'wrong'."
Honor, right, wrong, doesn't change this. It's clearly a violation of basic human rights. No societal perspective can change that. - foolfromhell, on 10/12/2007, -9/+24Definite proof that Islam causes atrocities like this:
India and Pakistan and Bangladesh were essentially the same country until Pakistan and East Pakistan officially recognized Islam as the main religion while in India the de facto religion was Hinduism. The essentially the same people made the three nations and see which countries are worse off in terms of freedom and see which countries are developing faster. Islam obviously is hindering the development of the nations. - novaculus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19@ julolidine
I don’t see how this "perspective" is supposed to promote "understanding”. In fact, I believe your remarks tend to obscure rather than focus on the fundamental issues.
Your terminology confuses "right/wrong" with what is more properly denominated as "good/evil". "Right/wrong" connotes merely correctness or incorrectness, and an amoral framework, while "shame/honor" is a moral framework. Therefore, “good/evil”, with its moral connotations, more accurately describes the relevant distinctions. But good and evil are morally absolute, and shame and honor are morally relative; the difference is crucial to understanding the issues.
It is the conflation of the two perspectives in Islamist societies, or indeed in any "shame/honor" based society, which leads to abominations such as the judicially sanctioned whipping of a rape victim. They replace “good” with “honor” and “evil” with "shame", and in so doing replace the morally absolute with the morally relative. “Good” can never be found in the service of “evil”, but it is indeed true, as here, that “evil” can often be found in the service of “honor” as defined in these societies.
Did you read the article? The young woman apparently did not admit to a "dishonorable" relationship, but said the man who apparently orchestrated the gang rape blackmailed her. I quote from the article:
"In an interview with the Saudi Gazette, the 19-year-old said she was blackmailed a year ago into meeting a man who threatened to tell her family they were having a relationship outside wedlock, which is illegal in the ultra-conservative desertkingdom. (sp)
After driving off together from a shopping mall near her home, the woman and the man were stopped and abducted by a gang of men wielding kitchen knives who took them to a farm where she was raped 14 times by her captors.
Five men were arrested for the rape and given jail terms ranging from 10 months to five years by a panel of judges in the eastern city of Qatif, near the woman's hometown.
But the judges also decided to sentence the woman, identified by the newspaper only as “G,” and the man to lashes for being alone together in the car."
By her own account, this woman was utterly innocent. It was the “shame/honor” structure of this perverse culture and society that placed her in a position of vulnerability to these depraved rapists. Every woman in such societies is so vulnerable. She rightly feared cruel punishment, perhaps even “honor killing” at the hands of her closest relatives if the perverted organizer of this atrocity bore false witness of “dishonorable” conduct on her part to her family. That her fears were well founded is borne out by the fact that she was later punished by her brother with a beating. One may question her judgment in determining to commit a real “offense” under Shari’a-based Saudi law in the attempt to protect herself from the very real likelihood of brutal punishment, perhaps even ending in her own death, but only the depraved can fail to appreciate her awful dilemma.
This poor young woman's dilemma was a direct consequence of cultural and social values that replace the morally absolute concepts of good and evil with morally relative concepts of shame and honor. Any culture or society that replaces the morally absolute with the morally relative is fundamentally amoral, and so are any of its people who mindlessly adopt such principles. There is NO excuse for thinking beings to do so. The capacity to think and make such distinctions is what separates humankind from the lower life forms, to the extent that we are indeed distinct. I submit that the miserable cretins who endorse and believe in “shame/honor” cultural values that permit a judge to self-righteously order the brutal whipping of a rape victim are vicious brutes, and evil, purely and simply. No amount of “perspective” can change that ugly reality. - uttles, on 10/12/2007, -10/+24Good ol' Religion of Peace.
- RoshanK, on 10/12/2007, -32/+45their law also has a ban on driving. now this i can agree with (at least when my girlfriend is driving)
- gthyb, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14It seems like we digg needs an entire category for middle eastern violence against women.
- AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15@zeromp thnx for the link. I'm gonna submit that now!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1554148/posts
An Iranian court has sentenced a teenage rape victim to death by hanging after she weepingly confessed that she had unintentionally killed a man who had tried to rape both her and her niece. - Julolidine, on 10/12/2007, -55/+66I know in advance I'm going to get dugg down, but here it goes.
We consider this culture backwards. They consider our culture backwards. Western woman are viewed in many of these countries to be prostitutes, because they behave in ways they would never consider.
People need to understand the difference between shame/honor based societies and right/wrong based societies. In the West we are judged whether our actions fit into 'right' and 'wrong'. These concepts don't necessarily exist in other societies. In many Islamic countries, people are judged by whether or not you behave 'honorably' or 'shamefully'. Meeting another man outside is a very dishonorable act - equivalent in our culture to something like raping a woman. It is perhaps even worse due to the ripple effect this has through their society. This action has consequences for many people not directly involved, since by dishonoring yourself, you also bring shame upon your family, and your whole tribe. This would be like a whole city being accused of being guilty of a rape - even people that were not involved. Not 'correcting' an action such as this potentially affects the lives of hundreds of people.
I don't agree with these actions what so ever, but sometimes a little understanding can help place something like this in perspective. - frgough, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16Incorrect. This is the direct result of Wahabbism (a sect of Islam). The Saudi Royal family basically caved to the Wahabbis a number of years ago. In return for the Wahabbi Imams letting the Royal family stay in power, the Wahabbi imams basically get to run the country.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14SAUDI ARABIA IS OUR ENEMY
Anyone who says America should invade Iran needs to have a ***** good reason why Iran is worse than Saudi. And just for you knee-jerk Republicans here's a quick checklist:
- No democracy, king has stated he 'will not tolerate' calls for democracy and has had pro-democracy groups arrested. Although it is possible to vote for some low-level government offices, women are exempt from running or voting.
- No sexual equality, women cant drive, leave the country without permission, or go outside without a full veil, women are sent to prison if they do not have a legal male guardian (i.e if all possible guardians are dead).
- Barbaric laws and punishments, beheading, amputations and floggings are a weekly public event in Saudi Arabia, there is pretty much no constitution and judges can meat out just about any punishment they want. US contractors and various personnel have reported helplessly witnessing women being slowly stoned to death, their life being intentionally prolonged while their bones are broken - said staff are absolutely prohibited from interfering, the US government has been very clear on this. It goes without saying that just about everything is illegal in Saudi. Its also worth pointing out that none of these punishments work in any way, the only thing that keeps Saudi Arabia together is that people on average actually have decent morals about not stealing etc - the threat of amputation makes no difference and the amount of underground crime is astonishing - the government does not keep proper records on crime statistics and claims that its methods are 'perfect'.
- Saudi ideology has allot in common with Bin Laden's Al'Qaeda, the Taliban and various similar militias and groups. Saudi funded organisations such as Mosques and schools are spread around the world and preach these backwards ideologies that are considered extreme even in the Middle East! The King Fart-head school in London actually teaches kids that Christians and Jews are 'apes and pigs' while girls are given lower education than boys and racism and intolerance of other faiths is encouraged - although the school has been questioned about these problems it has not done anything about them.
Please keep these points in mind, no matter if you're left or right - Saudi Arabia should be considered an extreme ideological enemy and should be treated with caution. Iran is a completely different kettle of fish and to intentionally become their enemy would be a big mistake both ethically and tactically. Saudi Arabia is one of the key sources of extremism in the world - lets not forget that from 9/11 to the Madrid and London bombings, to the US Cole, Bali, Egypt, Turkey - none of these terrorists have been Iranian, they have mainly been Pakistani and Saudi: remember that next time you consider Iran the global threat. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Yes we British have had a pretty sick past and lets not forget its been less than 100 years since British women got the vote, however what we are doing selling Typhoon fighters to the Saudis simply takes the piss of our barbarism. If the Saudis are 100 years behind the British then surely we should be selling them our old Sopwith Camel bi-planes from WWI?
Actually even Britain 100 years ago was far more civilised than Saudi today, its simply shocking that Tony Blair can say with a straight face that scrapping an investigation into Saudi fraud is a 'matter of national security' - we invaded Iraq for far less so why the hell are we allowing Saudi Arabia to blackmail and threaten us without so much as a hint of military action in return? America! tell me that your fine watching your president hold the hand of the Saudi king, tell me that you're happy for America ***** AMERICA to bend over for the Saudis and take their ***** ***** in your *****, because thats what your doing every ***** day, so dont give me this Iran *****, Iran has done nothing, Saudi is backstabbing us all. - heavensblade23, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11We don't "let" our women dress a certain way. They're autonomous and dress themselves, which isn't the case in Saudi Arabia.
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