What is Digg?Sponsored by Travelzoo
Take Advantage of Ridiculously Low Holiday Airfares view!
travelzoo.com - Flights $52 and up for Thanksgiving, Christmas & New Year. But move on it now.
123 Comments
- Mattwdj, on 04/04/2009, -6/+25The ironic part is that Georgia is the oppressor and Russia is the liberator.
- jayjayjoni, on 04/04/2009, -3/+20if we're allowed to occupy Iraq, Russia should be allowed to occupy Georgia.
- atdigg, on 04/03/2009, -0/+15Remind me, what did Bush do when Russia invaded?
- jameskong15, on 04/04/2009, -6/+21Cry me a river. Georgia got its ass handed to it and should be glad Russia didn't roll over the capitol. Maybe this will be a lesson for Georgia the next time they are going to "take back" ethnically diverse areas that were forced under their rule by ***** Stalin.
- mnocket, on 04/03/2009, -7/+17Don't worry. Just like with N. Korea, Obama will promise a "stern response" if Russia doesn't straighten up.
- richmomz, on 04/04/2009, -1/+10Oooh, those nasty Russians meddling in other people's business! Hey, so when were we going to pull our troops out of Iraq again?
- richmomz, on 04/04/2009, -0/+7Strange but true - you will never hear that fact in the western media though.
- slavix, on 04/04/2009, -1/+8The title and premise of this article is misleading and builds on bunch lies successfully implanted into most of American's brains by msm that it was Russia that invaded and occupied poor little democratic Georgia. Facts be damned, as usual. Never mind that Georgian army (armed and trained by Americans and Israelis) opened rocket fire on Osetians and Russian peasekeepers (stationed there under UN mandate) and killed hundreds and leveling most of Osetian capital. Never mind that Russians came to the rescue of their own citizens and defenseless Osetian civilians. Never mind that Osetians have chosen multiple times through referendums to be own country and were effectively a separate country sinse 1992 . Who cares.
- amielb, on 04/03/2009, -7/+14No real surprise there
- blackturtleus, on 04/04/2009, -0/+5When the treaty was signed Russia clearly stated that its understanding of the treaty was that they'd keep peace keeping forces in South Ossetia in accordance to an agreement made in the 1990s. In other words, the new agreement did not change anything about the old agreement. Russia acted incredibly responsibly in response to Georgian aggression. They probably should have overthrown the government in Georgia, but instead they pulled back. (Keep in mind that the USA invaded and over-threw the government in Iraq in response to imaginary provocation.)
- derzhava, on 04/04/2009, -2/+7I still get sick to my stomach when I realize there are people out there who will willingly lie just to be patriots, and continue to revel in the fantasy that the U.S. is always moral. The rest of the world to your type is shallow and childishly naive...but it's okay, it is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
The Iraq war was so "legal" that Kofi Annan went on to say "From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the war] was illegal." source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/36611 ...
As for Russia, the UN mandate stated that Russia had the right to intervene in the area should violence break out. That is the reason Russian troops were legally stationed there. - Naieve, on 04/04/2009, -0/+4Actually South Ossetia was legally part of Georgia the entire time you are trying to say it wasn't americanoboy. Here's a little timeline of the argument over South Ossetia and what country it was part of. You see there is a difference between independence and being autonomous.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/g ...
"November 1989 - South Ossetia declares its autonomy from the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, triggering three months of fighting.
December 1990 - Georgia and South Ossetia begin a new armed conflict which lasts until 1992.
June 1992 - Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian leaders meet in Sochi, sign an armistice and agree the creation of a tripartite peacekeeping force of 500 soldiers from each entity.
November 1993 - South Ossetia drafts its own constitution.
November 1996 - South Ossetia elects its first president.
December 2000 - Russia and Georgia sign an intergovernment agreement to re-establish the economy in the conflict zone.
December 2001 - South Ossetia elects Eduard Kokoity as president, in 2002 he asks Moscow to recognise the republic's independence and absorb it into Russia.
January 2005 - Russia gives guarded approval to Georgia's plan to grant broad autonomy to South Ossetia in exchange for dropping its bid for independence.
November 2006 - South Ossetia overwhelmingly endorses its split with Tbilisi in a referendum. Georgia's prime minister says this is part of a Russian campaign to stoke a war.
April 2007 - Georgia's parliament approves a law to create a temporary administration in South Ossetia, raising tension with Russia.
June 2007 - South Ossetian separatists say Georgia attacked Tskhinvali with mortar and sniper fire. Tbilisi denies this.
October 2007 - Talks hosted by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe between Georgia and South Ossetia break down.
March 2008 - South Ossetia asks the world to recognise its independence from Georgia, following the West's support for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.
March 2008 - Georgia's bid to join NATO, though unsuccessful, prompts Russia's parliament to urge the Kremlin to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
April 2008 - South Ossetia rejects a Georgian power-sharing deal, insists on full independence.
August 2008 - Fighting breaks out between Georgian and separatist South Ossetian forces. Georgia says its forces have "freed" the greater part of the Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali." - tzvika613, on 04/04/2009, -1/+5As I pointed out - the chart in your globalsecurity.org link compared 2004 spending to 2008 spending. As for the one from The Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation - US spending accounted for 48% of the world total for ' Military Spending ' -- close to what you said but not quite " The U.S. spends more on its military than all the other nations of the world COMBINED. " ( " The U.S. spends almost as much on its military than all the other nations of the world COMBINED. " ) would be truthful.
I have seen in many places people saying that Israel has the world's third largest military expenditure ( I am not certain if you have said so or not ). According to the chart that you present - it actually is is the seven-teenth.
Thank you for presenting this chart. It is quite interesting and useful. - americanoboy, on 04/04/2009, -9/+13Why shouldn't Russia keep a few troops in Georgia to make sure Georgia doesn't try to ethnically cleanse Ossetians again? Once dictator Sakashvili gets ousted by protesters in Georgia, a legitimate government will be selected by its people (for real, this time) and Russia will have no reason to be there.
By the way, how long has US kept its troops in Iraq and Afghanistan now? Doesn't sound very "adult" now, does it?
I dugg you for at least establishing the fact Georgia's government is oppressive. - tzvika613, on 04/05/2009, -1/+4@richmomz - It is rather obvious what I am getting at if you think about what I said:
I have seen in many places people saying that Israel has the world's third largest military expenditure ( I am not certain if you have said so or not ). According to the chart that you present - it actually is is the seven-teenth.
There is nothing cryptic there.
Here is further explanation for those who require one: For those of you who think that Israel has the third largest expediture in the world - here are some figures on a chart that richmomz kindly drew my attention to:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www. ... - offrdbandit, on 04/04/2009, -4/+7Stepped up efforts to deploy ADMSs in Easter Europe.
- breadfred, on 04/04/2009, -1/+4Yeah and
http://www.you-are-a-moron.tit - tzvika613, on 04/04/2009, -1/+4@richmomz - I would like to see some support for the statement, "The U.S. spends more on its military than all the other nations of the world COMBINED."
- americanoboy, on 04/04/2009, -3/+6take over the world, eh? somebody watched too much pinky and the brain as a kid.
- Karmashock, on 04/04/2009, -2/+5Americanoboy,
1) South Ossetia was part of Georgia. That point is not in dispute.
2) The Russians had obvious alterer motives in offering those passports. They also were part of a larger operation that unfolded over about a year. For example, the Russian tanks that stormed over the boarder were previously on a training mission. A training mission that just happened to have a massive armor build up next to the Georgian boarder at the exact moment that the South Ossetians started instigating violence. The whole situation is full of "convenient" "coincidences" that are so transparent you'd have to be thick not to see them.
3) The confirmed damage to Ossetians by Georgians prior to the Russian invasion is extremely minor and the Ossetians were using Russian provided weapons AND training against them. So they were hardly defenseless.
I question whether you actually believe all the crap you're spewing here... or if you just think we're stupid enough to buy your crap? - tzvika613, on 04/04/2009, -1/+4@richmomz - Thanks. Here is something to consider in the globalsecurity.org chart.
Military expenditures for the world - $1100 billion - 2004 estimate
Military expenditures for the US - $ 623 billion - 2008 estimate
There is a four year difference in which the world military expenditures may have increased.
Note 6 - The FY2008 budget requests $481.4 billion in discretionary authority for the Department of Defense base budget, an 11.3 percent increase over the projected enacted level for fiscal 2007, for real growth of 8.6 percent; and $141.7 billion to continue the fight in the Global War on Terror (GWOT)
Also - according to Note 6 ( relating to US figures ): " The fiscal year (FY) 2004 Department of Defense (DoD) budget request was $379.9 billion in discretionary budget authority -- $15.3 billion above FY 2003. The fiscal 2004 National Defense Authorization Act, passed by Congress 07 November 2003, authorizes DoD to spend $401.3 billion. The fiscal 2004 Defense Appropriations Act, which actually provides the money, became law 30 September 2003. "
Were all these discretionary budget authority dollars actually spent ? And were they spent on the military itself ? I do not know - it just seems that your statement seemed exaggerated. - PunchRockgroin, on 04/04/2009, -1/+4For the West, it's hard to get past 40 plus years of Russia = bad guy.
Let's remember this 40 years from now. - tzvika613, on 04/05/2009, -0/+3@richmomz - If you did not get it in my explanation above your last comment - there is not much more that I can do to clarify it. But let me give it one more try.
On Digg I have seen many repeated instances of people ( who knows - maybe even you ) say that Israel has the world's 3rd largest military expenditure. But the chart that you present shows that it is really has the world's 17th largest military expenditure. ( If you still do not understand let me know and I will be happy to try to explain it to you again. But I do not think that I will be able to add anything new to the discussion so I hope that this explanation is understood by you. )
" What difference does it make if Israel's expenditure is 3rd or 17th? " you ask. It makes a huge difference. Would you not agree that there is a very big difference between 3rd or 17th ?
" How is this relevant to the article at issue? " you ask. Strictly speaking it is not relevant to the article at issue. But since you appear to have an interest in the State of Israel and its armed forces I thought I would take the opportunity to point out that the commonly spoken line about 3rd largest military expenditure was mistaken.
But thank you again for calling that chart to my attention. The statistics in it were very interesting. - americanoboy, on 04/04/2009, -1/+4wow, after 6 years US still can't fix their tanks in iraq?
- james188foster, on 04/04/2009, -3/+5Your US zionist yiddisher press never gives the Rukkies a break. Georgia started that War in august 2008 remember.
- 3nder99, on 04/04/2009, -4/+6I wonder what you would say if your neighbor supplied a separatist movement in your country, provided them with citizenship papers saying they were now their citizens, then sat back and watched their new "citizens" shoot mortars at your towns and villages.
I think you would be screaming for the military to go in, take back your land, capture the "separatists" mortaring their fellow citizens, and kick out the nation fomenting rebellion in your country.
Classic Russian Maskirovka, straight out of their playbook. Sad so few people realize that. - aufte, on 04/04/2009, -0/+2This seems vaguely familiar, oh yeah, Obama changed everything. This time around, a country (not the U.S.) is invading another one, except the twist is, this time Americans are up in arms about the sovereignty of foreign soil! Oh man, now you know how the rest of the world felt watching Iraq.
- richmomz, on 04/04/2009, -0/+2That's right, and the nearest repair shop is apparently in Afghanistan now...
- Ocyris, on 04/04/2009, -1/+3Don't see how the US can really say anything, at this point they aren't doing anything we haven't done before...
- americanoboy, on 04/04/2009, -2/+4Georgia invaded Ossetia and started murdering civilians and Russian peacekeepers. It's a pretty good reason for Russia to intervene.
Did Saddam fly those planes into WTC? No? Well, gg. - hmunkey, on 04/04/2009, -10/+12Russia needs to get its ***** together and start acting like an adult.
The US needs to stop making friends with oppressive governments like Georgia. - americanoboy, on 04/04/2009, -3/+5maybe if georgia leaves ossetians alone and in peace, russia could reciprocate
- BotchaMcCoola, on 04/04/2009, -0/+2Does it not look like he is doing the bidding of the Military and MIC? So did Bush.
- Karmashock, on 04/04/2009, -1/+3americanoboy,
You're clearly a tool. A person to be used by anyone willing to wield you. A dispensable robot... Would be a pity if such people weren't so common. - browntiger, on 04/04/2009, -1/+3Ignore, SachOfShilly has always been media whore. Every month he comes up with new story. From our goverment server been hacked by russians we just can not prove it, some bogus story about tiny army group. Local population now hates georgians, after his attempt to capture that region, no way they going back. War escalation cost a lot of money that we don't have to waste. Spacewar programs are incredibly wasteful at the time of economic crisis.
We could waste 20 billion building bases in Poland & Czechoslovakia and russia will build bases in south america.
We could spend money on interceptors and russia will likely to help iran building new missiles.
I would rather see spending money to fix our economy and healthcare . - 3nder99, on 04/04/2009, -2/+4I love revisionist history. Suddenly South Ossetia isn't a part of Georgia, despite the fact not a single country recognized that till 2008, you know, when Russia finally pushed the Georgians too far. Russia supplied and fomented rebellion to protect those rebelling. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.
Funny part is, right after Russia declares its recognizance for South Ossetia's independence, South Ossetia declares its joining Russia. What a ***** coincidence. Reminds me of a line from a movie, "What you just slipped and your dick slipped into my wife?"
***** hilarious americanoboy. - BotchaMcCoola, on 04/04/2009, -0/+2Maybe we are still jealous about them having enough brains to stop wasting resources on the Taliban?
- Karmashock, on 04/04/2009, -0/+2Americanoboy,
There's no evidence for that. You might as well say they used fairy magic and the Russians flew in on dragons. You're spinning tales. - americanoboy, on 04/04/2009, -2/+4Lol, that's hilarious.
US killed millions of Iraqis to install a government that it never asked for, which will be changed after US leaves, anyway.
*snicker* human rights in Iraq! I guess this clown never heard of waterboarding, US soldiers raping little kids and then setting them on fire along with their families, or just plain murders and destruction of Iraq's infrastructure preventing people from getting medical supplies, food, and water. - james188foster, on 04/04/2009, -0/+2Obviously I should have wrote Russkies.
- richmomz, on 04/04/2009, -1/+3@Karma: one small problem with your logic - Ossetians WANT the Russians there, while Iraqis want us OUT. Another small problem - the reason why they are worse off is because the Georgians obliterated their cities, not because the Russians came in and stopped the genocide.
Ossetians celebrating their liberation by Russian troops: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ossetia%20ce ...
Iraqis protesting U.S. occupation: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ossetia%20ce ... - richmomz, on 04/04/2009, -0/+1Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events but the Ossetians WANT the Russians there and welcomed them for liberating their people from their ***** crazy Georgian neighbors. No sarcasm.
- BotchaMcCoola, on 04/04/2009, -0/+1Military and MIC may have too much authority now to ever stop them unless it can be done from the inside at a high level. It is one of our greatest problems in the US. Plus it is a delicate issue. WW2 and the Fist Gulf war were useful so we do need a military for that kind of thing. But the rest has been useless and wasteful on a unthinkable scale. Plus look at the continuing expenses and problems from the Korean War mistake alone.
- inactive, on 04/04/2009, -0/+1The cake is a lie.
- fury420, on 04/04/2009, -1/+2comparing Russia to North Korea in any way is doomed to failure
- Karmashock, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1Record200,
We helped the Russians fight the germans... they helped us fight the Germans. But even before the fall of germany the alliance was over.
Stalin betrayed us. He broke his oath. And the Russian people paid the price.
As to Russia being able to defend itself? No it can't. Look at what it has suffered at the hands of it's own leaders... it's defensely against it's own tyranny. And if they can't even protect themselves from themselves... how can they protect themselves from us?
Americans are long term planners... we think in terms of generations. We've squeezed the Russians before and we can do it again.
As to whether I've been stepped on by a Russian... Sorry, never have... All the Russians I know are very nice people. Of course they're all American citizens now. Most of them fled during the collapse of the USSR to start new lives. Los Angeles has a large Russian population... They mostly deal with low level technical issues... car mechanic... plumber... electrician... that sort of thing. - Karmashock, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1Record200,
You misunderstand... I am not angry... this is not an emotional reaction. It is a logical consequence of hostile behavior. It's a chess game. You threaten my pieces and I take your queen.
As to what Russia has done to me personally? Nothing. I am not speaking as simply myself here but for, to the extent that I can, my whole civilization. I am trying to explain why my civilization is reacting the way it does.
As to what Russia has done since the collapse of the USSR... I gave you a list. Look at it... and instead of dismissing it, understand that we consider that list valid.
Now, assuming that list is valid, do you understand why we would perceive Russia with hostility? Of course you do. Doubtless however you think the list is invalid. That doesn't matter... we disagree. If you want to understand our position you have to see things through our eyes. That is what we see.
Again, it is very sad. Think of where Russia would be today if it had embraced the west as friends after WW2? Russia would have enjoyed wealth like it's never had instead of decades of mismanagement, famine, and oppression. It would have been our friend... instead of worrying endlessly about spies, sabotage, invasion, or nuclear war... we could have had cultural exchange, tourism, industrial cooperation, and mutual immigration. That is a fate that Stalin denied our peoples.
Oh well... as I've said, the Russians are gluttons for misery. They hurt no one more then themselves. During the period that the russians were suffering my people gloried in the sun. The Russians can join us if they ever grow up. - Karmashock, on 04/04/2009, -2/+3Record200,
>>1. Supporting Iran's nuclear program.
>Mind your own business.
It is our business if you're giving nuclear weapons to crazy regimes. Furthermore, this can be reversed. Why are you involving yourself in Iranian development if you believe in minding your own business? Your statement is hypocritical on top of being stupid.
We have a responsibility, as does Russia, to control the spread of nuclear technology. Russia is behaving irresponsibly and provocatively. It is at best childish.
>>2. Boosting KGB spying operations in the US.
>paranoia
False. CIA, FBI, and NSA have all confirmed an almost ten fold increase in russian intelligence activity in the US.
>>3. Invading Georgia and annexing territory.
>It was a just response to the murderous Georgian aggression.
Only idiots believe that line.
>>4. Putting Russian bombers in Venezuela and Cuba (planned).
>Don't mess with the Russians on their own borders. That's even.
Fine... you want to play eye for an eye? We're richer and more powerful. The Russians will lose.
I mean, it's just stupid. Russia has a smaller economy then my home state let alone my whole country. How long do you think Russia can play these games with the US if we're finally pissed off? This is a joke.
>>5. Attempting to assassinate foreign leaders.
>In your imagination
The Ukrainians are convinced.
>>6. Assassinating ex-spies in England.
>BS.
I suppose that ex-spy accidentally ate radioactive material then.
>>7. Engaging in organized cyber-attacks against other countries.
>you're talking about pings? That's people's reaction.
An organized DOS attack that shuts down national computer networks is not "pings"... Russia got caught red handed last time because of an accident of spelling. See, we have a state called "Georgia" in the US... and while the country of Georgia was being assaulted by the Russian cyber attack, so was the state of Georgia. Unlike the country of Georgia however the our state of Georgia had the resources to both block the attack and trace it back to it's source. We traced it back to a youth group funded by the Russian government... and the computers attacking us were within walking distance of the Kremlin.
So that's government funding and proximity.
>>8. Using the oil pipeline to play politics.
>That's just business. Don't pay money, if you don't like it.
Not when you use it to play politics. Playing around with the oil supply because Ukraine is friendly with the US and agrees to install a missile shield is not acceptable. Further, the actions in Georgia were clearly also about the pipeline. Minus the near monopoly on trans Asian shipping... Russia's got nothing but rusty relics. We wanted to be Russia's friend. We offered them everything. That wasn't enough. So we go back to the old way. Obama despite all his sweet talk is a believer in Realpolitik... which means Russia is going to start getting squeezed.
Why Russia is so stupid to keep underestimating the US is beyond me... the mistake has cost them repeatedly. - JPHR, on 04/04/2009, -0/+1The Russians have been present in both Ossetia and Abkhazia since shortly after the dissolution of the USSR in 1991. Immediately after Georgia got its independence back the bloody Ossetia-Georgia war (including some ethnic cleansing) was reason for a Russian/CIS peace keeping force based there from 1992 till 2008.
Yes shortly after Rice visited Georgia in July 2008 that Saaskhavili (elected on the nationalistic message of retaking those areas) initiated an artillery attack on Ossetia. Rice proceeded to callously increase tensions by comparing this with the USSR and Warsaw Pact clampdown on Chechoslovakia in 1968 and subsequently used the thus increased lingering fear to clinch the ABM (MDS is propaganda) deal with Poland.
For sources simply check Wikipedia on "Georgia" and "Ossetia".
Oh yes there were quite a few US and Israeli instructors present in Georgia but no one seems to have to noticed the build up by Georgia suspicious enough to phone home??
Oh yes the US had to support Georgia as one of the few remaining in Iraq supporting Bush' (oil) pipe dreams.
Oh yes mid december 2008 Rice visited Ukraine signing a special protocol including assistance to the overhaul of the gas transit system and guess what happened two week later.
That Rice damn well knew what she was doing but did not give a ***** for the consequence of her actions. - Karmashock, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1Derzhava,
False. Annan does not have that power. He is not arbiter of UN law. Further, the law is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of procedure, protocol, and form. It is a legal machine.
If the US actions were illegal then they would have been declared officially by the UN as illegal. Despite Annan's statement, the US's actions were never officially declared as illegal by the UN.
Thus the order stands unchallenged. It's the law. I made a legal argument and if you want to attack it then you're going to have to attack it legally. Annan's statement is not binding.
As to demonization of the enemy. People that use retarded children as weapons. Decapitate their foes and take their heads as trophies. Intentionally bomb schools. Intentionally use children and sick people as human shields... etc. These people don't need us to demonize them. They demonize themselves. That you don't see that is sad... it speaks of a lack of wisdom on your part.
As to nationalism being a thing of the past... Countries without it are internally weak. They are unable to assimilate immigrants, unable to project foreign policy, unsure of themselves, and the pray of anyone wiser then themselves. A people must believe in something or they will cease to be a people. Look at europe and tell me you think it's long term future looks bright? It's rotting from the inside out.
As to wars and nationalism... What we are doing is not about our nationalism. Our nationalism is merely a tool we use to maintain cohesion. This war is about countering foreign threats that have expressed and demonstrated hostility against our civilization. Remember, we were attacked. We will not stop until the enemy is driven from the field of battle. Don't argue this point with me... argue it with them if you want it to stop. Go ahead and ask Osama and his ilk to back off... succeed and we'll stop. Otherwise, you're wasting your breath. -
Show 51 - 100 of 128 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is 