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63 Comments
- astro900, on 11/18/2008, -6/+17Nice, Georgians "accidentally missed" and hit civilians with Grad:
"The report said that in attacking Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, on Aug. 7 and 8, Georgia fired Grad missiles that seemed to miss their targets and hit civilian areas..." - opticwind, on 11/19/2008, -2/+8I blame trolls. And you.
- crashbang, on 11/19/2008, -0/+5Link to the Amnesty International report:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR04/005/ ...
It may take a minute.... - moirende, on 11/19/2008, -1/+6Of course, the Russians *intentionally* attacking areas with no military targets, that doesn't bother you in the slightest, apparently. Hope! Change!
"The report found that Georgian towns, villages and civilians were hit during Russian bombing raids, sometimes “in the apparent absence of nearby military targets,” which would violate international law.
Russian infantry treated civilians in a disciplined fashion, but the Russians allowed South Ossetian forces to loot and set fires in the ethnic Georgian villages north of the separatist capital, the report determined. Amnesty International’s researchers “documented unlawful killings, beatings, threats, arson and looting” by armed South Ossetian groups, the report said.
“It is clear that the Russian authorities singularly failed in their duty to prevent reprisals and serious human rights abuses carried out by South Ossetian forces and militia units,” the report said." - Sanjei, on 11/19/2008, -0/+4Then believe Americans that mostly don't know where Georgia is located. Or Bush that can't tell the difference between Slovenia and Slovakia and read Elizabet II queen as Elizabet 11th. Particularly Americans that live in Georgia (US state) that thought that Russia had invaded their state and became panic-stricken (it was very funny).
- Sanjei, on 11/19/2008, -0/+4to omn3s and all.
And Russia is absolutly right. They protect their borders from such military and aggressive organisation like NATO. I think NATO is comparable with terrorists. Nobody knows which is better. Terrorists that kill may be thousand people a year or NATO that kill hundred thousands or even millions of civilians?
It is called GREAT GEOPOLICY. All countries want to have friends (or at least not enemies) around themselves.
What would the US do for example if Russia armed Cuba and then push them to bomb the US citizens? I think the same that Russia did. And they definetely won't wait for international support.
What about allowing Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. Please do it. In first case with lunatic Saakashvili you will have war with Russia. In second you will have civil war in Ukraine 80% of population in Ukraine don't want to be in NATO. Only president Jushenko and his administration want. But think currently only 5% of Ukranians support Jushenko. And he definetely won't be elected once more.
I think the only aim that NATO has is destabilization in Russia. They don't think about simple people that live in these countries. Very, very, very sad...
By the way the movie that I mentioned in the previous message you can also see on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szUPl0H082E&feature ... - OneOfNone, on 11/19/2008, -0/+4No, what you posted is a summary of (somewhat biased) NY Times article.
The REPORT also assigns blame to Georgians for indiscriminate shelling of Tskhinvali. Due to high concentration of remaining civilians, a single large-scale shelling of the city led to a large number of civilian deaths. See pages 24-28 of the report: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR04/005/ ...
Russian side is mostly blamed for civilian deaths from multiple incidents of mis-targeted bombing and failing to protect ethnic Georgian civilians from South Ossetians (p29-31).
The report also states that ground military forces (Georgian AND Russian) behaved in a civilized manner (p28, p31) with few exceptions for each side (firing on cars with "possible combatants"). Arson, looting and intentional murders of ethnic Georgians in the conflict area are squarely blamed on the gangs of South Ossetian paramilitaries (p39-p43). However, ethnic Georgian villages that were under direct control of South Ossetian administration were left largely alone (p44).
So, on the whole, it appears that all sides share about the same burden of guilt. This is the real summary of the report. - Dinsdale77, on 11/19/2008, -0/+4If we are all Georgians, why am I at ease?
- Grin23, on 11/19/2008, -0/+4Once more amnesty -International proves to be a humongous Farce.
- individual61, on 11/19/2008, -1/+4No *****.
- inactive, on 11/19/2008, -3/+6The south will rise again, Lee will set us free!
- inactive, on 11/19/2008, -3/+6But McCain and Palin said we're all Georgians.
- Eunonia, on 11/19/2008, -1/+4All of you know ***** of what really had happened. Do not listen to those who know nothing of the conflict. Watch this documentary. You can even download it from the website. Here it is. http://www.russia.ru/war080808/ I am Russian so I would know what happened. Georgian soldiers killed men, women and children in South Ossetia. They even stalked people who wanted to get away from the conflcit and showed no mercy with their tanks supplied by Americans and other countries. The documentary is called War, the Art of Betrayal. During Olympics, I flew to Belarus to see my sister. This is when Georgia decided to attack South Ossetia. Ossetians wanted to have relations with Russia and many of them did in fact have Russian passports which makes them Russian citizens. Russia attacked and pushed Georgians back because they went to protect theirs citizens. Georgian president Sakashvili even assured many people that there was no attack and it was only a speculation. Only it was a lie because 3 days later, they did attack South Ossetia which coincided with the opening of the Olympics. Georgian soldiers did kill a lot of people. So please do not blame Russians. I am sick and tired of you people telling others that Russia is at fault. American politics tell you only one side of the story. The side where it benefits them and gets them your vote. Plus, there is a footage that Georgian soldiers shot when they were killing others and blowing things up for the fun of it. Which makes it a war crime.
- volandkit, on 11/19/2008, -1/+4I hope you got your honors degree for that work! I hope you will join the army of journalists/bloggers/... who know that they are on the right side.
On the other hand, why didn't Russia just stood still and let those noble Georgians kill those bad-bad-bad Ossetians? Save lives of civilians and its own peace keepers - what a ridiculous reason to start peace enforcing operation (yes, it was peace enforcing, no occupation as in Iraq, no government overthrow as in Nikaragua, and no surge)! - Sanjei, on 11/19/2008, -2/+5I think this report says what the US and GB administrations want to hear. Georgians "accidentally missed" and hit civillians with Grad. Georgians "accidentally" shot civilians' buildings, cars, schools, hospitals. On the first days of the conflict TV showed Tskhinvali hospital. And the doctor said that Georgian tanks purposely fired at hospital. He said that all patients had been evacuated to the cellar. However, they couldn't move the patients from reanimation and doctors worked under the fire. The video shows the big holes in the walls of hospital. (by the way BBC video regarding the conflict shows wounded people hiding in the cellar of the hospital). Georgian tanks even purposely squashed the cemetry.
On the first day of conflict Georgian administration informed the Ossetians that they can leave the city. That they provided them with the safe corridor by one road. At the same time they placed troops along that road. And when people that believed them tried to escape by this road Georgians purposely started shot them by tanks and other heavy weapons.
It was funny when western channels showed Georgian city Gory, alleged to be destroyed. In fact they showed destroyed Tskhinvali. And Ossetians confirm that.
You can see all these evidences in English in the movie "WAR. THE ART OF BETRAYAL". http://war080808.com/
By the way, the Urkanian parliamentarians tryed to show this movie in Ukranian Parliament. The Security Service banned that demonstration. The reason is that this movie reveals the truth that Ukraine ILLEGALLY delivered weapons and military equipment to Georgia. In the nearest future this film is going to be demonstrated in Washington.
You believe Georgians. Read all ***** that lunatic Saakashvili has been saying. He always lies and contradicts himself. He has already had mess in his mind. The truth was that Georgians started the conflict. They forced Russians to answer.
If this Amnesty International is so "clever" and "fair" and "trying to protect civilians" what about making the report on war crimes that are happening every day in Iraq, Afganistan, Pakistan, Siria. How many wedding ceremonies the US should bomb to make Amnesty International pay attention to such crimes...?????? - JuliaXV, on 11/20/2008, -0/+3Georgia murdered peacekeepers, targeted civilians hiding in churches and basements and destroyed much of the capital city of South Ossetia. Saakashvili up until this time has been jailing the opposition, stifling free press and rattling his sabre about taking these lands that were NEVER historically a part of Georgia. Anyone who supports Saakashvili in taking these lands is a Stalinist because it was Stalin to annexed South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Adjaria to Georgia.
The people that lived there did not want to be a part of Georgia and expressed such when Georgia left the Soviet Union. But Saakashvili doesn't care what the people want and so he went in firing artillery and killing civilians. So how is Russia to blame for defending these people and their peacekeepers?
Really, people in the west need to stop believing everything in their media which does nothing but lie. You have the Internet and thanks to the Internet, the western media is not getting away with painting Russia as the bad guy or blaming Russia. - opticwind, on 11/19/2008, -1/+3Maybe you should add the rest of that paragraph, astro:
"The report found that Georgian towns, villages and civilians were hit during Russian bombing raids, sometimes “in the apparent absence of nearby military targets,” which would violate international law." - atdigg, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2Well Russia is doing business with Iran, why wouldn't Israel do business with Georgia?
- srebp001, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2I guess you are looking for a job at Fox News.
- roddack, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2Nothing will ever crack me up more than the west trying to make Russia look bad no matter what the situation.
- jfreeman, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2This is exactly what I have been saying: both sides have been asking for a fight for years, and they got what they wanted. It is none of our business, and it would be folly to go to war for them.
- OneOfNone, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2Which ethnic peoples from which ethnic oppressors? Georgians from Russians? Or South Ossetians and Abkhazs from Georgians? Your statement is a good illustration why taking sides in murky conflicts across the world is a bad idea.
- Sanjei, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2It's the war. Russian didn't start it. But they had to defense themselves and civilians. And of course prevent new attacks. Therefore Russians started operation in Georgia to destroy military sites. So if they hit civilians they did it accidentally. It happens. For example: shot wedding ceremonies in Afganistan by US troops. It's war. The fact remains fact: Russia didn't start that war.
- BohicaTwentyTwo, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2Grad rocket launchers are of Soviet origin.
- Cuchanu, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2I see you tried to tie "brave, heroic Russians" to Obama and I'm sure he never said the Russians were innocent. I seem to recall him saying that all parties were at least partially at fault... so he was right? Is that what you are trying to say? McCain was the one trying to turn it into a campaign issue by acting like it was ONLY the Russians who had done anything wrong and it's no surprise that this report finds that to be *****.
- inactive, on 11/19/2008, -0/+2If you don't think Obama kissed ass too, you weren't paying attention. Facts don't change, so keep digging me down and I'll keep being right-as-usual.
- Sahak, on 11/19/2008, -4/+5A short summary of the report: "Russians and Ossetians are guilty of war crimes. Georgians are not."
- opticwind, on 11/19/2008, -1/+2The report makes both sides look (fairly) bad.
"The report found that Georgian towns, villages and civilians were hit during Russian bombing raids, sometimes “in the apparent absence of nearby military targets,” which would violate international law." - SemiSarcastic, on 11/19/2008, -1/+2As it should be. Both countries never learned from their own history and ended up repeating it, causing more bloodshed.
- crashbang, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/ ...
Link doesn't work. Try this. It links to the page with the PDF file at the bottom - inactive, on 11/19/2008, -1/+2The noose is tightening around Russia. With collapsing energy prices she will be gravely weak. Putin has done nothing to diversify the Russian economy. Indeed, international investment is pouring out of Russia because of the Georgian invasion. Let us hope Putin hangs soon. Now is the time to bring Ukraine and Georgia into the NATO fold. Then if tanks roll into the Crimea or through the tunnel in the Caucasus the US can pick them off at leisure. After that, perhaps Belarus, Armenia, Moldova, and Azerbaijan.
- Cuchanu, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1Just poor cockroaches as Oscar Zeta Acosta would say.
- Akiha_Tohno, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1Perhaps if you read the actual report, you would see that Georgians, Ossetians, and Russians alike are being blamed for war crimes. This is not some attempt to single Russia out for a nefarious scheme or whatever you think is going on. When the war happened, do you really think Georgia would admit to any wrongdoings? No, they wouldn't. No country would admit to wrongdoings during a conflict, so of course Russia isn't going to admit to anything either. Like it or not, when ethnic struggles are part of one of these said wars, senseless violence against civilians is commonplace on all sides. Just as Georgians committed atrocities against other peoples, the South Ossetians did as well and the Russian army allowed it to happen. There is no such thing in war as a side that has done no wrong. To think otherwise is just being naive.
- Akiha_Tohno, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1Both sides did stuff they should not have. When innocent people on both sides start getting killed, the question of who started it first becomes irrelevant. There is no excuse for either Georgia or Russia and Ossetia to target civilians and pillage towns and cities, no matter what. Both Georgia and Russia could have acted in a much better manner than this.
- jfreeman, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1I don't think you've done enough research. Georgia has been in conflict with this region for almost a century, and I don't hear anyone dogging the French for "blind aggression" when they helped the US achieve independence.
- Cuchanu, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1Nope but if it's that simple I'll take tax and spend so we don't have our kids paying the interest which is ***** up.
- TheTruthHurts, on 11/19/2008, -1/+2did they include Israel? for arming the Georgians with clusterbombs?
- pullablank, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1Good job holding back your prejudices in discussing politics and war, very mature.
- Mujokan, on 11/20/2008, -0/+1Neither did anything to me directly. I have little admiration for either country, as I said.
- noahtron, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1DUGG
- Sanjei, on 11/20/2008, -0/+1Replying on your statements:
Read what you intelligence says:
"Intel panel foresees lesser U.S. role"
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/19/pa ...
Doubtless that the US will remain to be first.
However,
"If current trends generally persist, by 2025 China will have the world's second-largest economy and will be a leading military power," it says. "At its current growth rate, Russia is on a path ... to become the world's fifth-largest economy in 20 years, and the oil boom could catapult it there by 2017."
Currency reserves are plummeting in all countries without no exception (including the US). IT"S THE CRISIS. Even Warren Buffet is losing 1000 dollars every 15 sec. But it will definitely finish in some time.
Sorry but Georgia in not invaded. Read news. Theire's another reason for "there will be no peace". And it has roots in 1991 when Georgia first time attacked South Ossetia with the slogan "Georgia is for Georgians"
Secondly they destroyed their economy when they broke economic relations with Russia. Their economy is based on agriculture. Main export consist of wine and mineral water. Their main market was CIS countries, mostly Russia. When they broke the relations with Russia a lot of producers collapsed.
Regarding protection: after 1991 Russia has attacked no country in the world (except Chechnya that is the territory of Russia, btw i have some friends from Groznyi that now live in Kazakhstan, so they are happy that Russia stopped the chaos that there had been).
What about the possibility of war between Russia and Ukraine, it won't happen cos the second main population in Ukraine is Russian (20%). More than 10 mln of Urkanian live in Russia. They are sister-nations. The only barrier between them is the Administration (that nowadays has 5% of support among people).
After Ukraine became ally of the west there is never-ceasing economic and politic crisis. I think it's the indicator of who is better.
What about American muscles I don't think they will be enough (the US haven't won no conflict during its history by itself). Actually If nucluar conflict happened there wouldn't be a winner. - volandkit, on 11/20/2008, -0/+12moirende
Well, let's see. From the first day western media reported that Russia invaded peaceful Georgia. Almost everybody (who matters of course) on the West blamed Russia. Russian troops crashed Georgian army and captured some territory of Georgia. In fact on the second day the conflict was resolved with minimal casualties that could occur (remember NATO operation from a military standpoint, not political). During next 2 weeks all facilities on captured territories (cities, roads, whole shebang) were gracefully passed to Georgian officials. There was no attempts to overthrow government, give ultimatum to Georgia, etc.
Nowadays, peace corp from Russia stand on positions that was negotiated 15 years ago (during first Georgian-Ossetian and Georgian-Abkhazian conflicts. You should know that during 200x Georgia actually captured Codori Gorge, as well as moved forward in a zone of Georgia-Ossetia border) and are written and ratified by Georgia. So who is right here, Georgia, that tried to resolute conflict by military means, or Russia, that acts according to international law?
BTW, I'm Russian. - Akiha_Tohno, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1I believe this saying is relevant to the topic at hand:
"An eye for an eye makes us all blind." - Sanjei, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1The important thing is the fact of guiltiness. What means that a criminal wants to do a crime, i.e. does it purposely, and starts first. The difference is that Georgians did it purposely. Russians didn't target the civilians and if hit them then unpurposely. This is the reality of war. Or you think that Russians should have swallowed that and allow Georgians to kill them (peace keepers and citizens). In law it is called self-defense. What about Ossetians: I can understand them, their relatives and friends were killed. They were angry. It's revenge, that is in their nature. I mean in Caucasus as a whole it's like a tradition.
- BohicaTwentyTwo, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1It's a fair cop.
- volandkit, on 11/20/2008, -0/+1Well, someone doesn't understand irony (is there a tag for that?).
- inactive, on 11/19/2008, -1/+2Russia's currency reserves are plummeting due to the price of oil and gas. The US is still the foremost industrial power in the world. We lead in aircraft, computers, CPU's, communications, satellites, jet engines, construction equipment, advanced materials, medical equipment, education. advanced research... It is staggering. The US will remain a financial power is long as its economy is more than 3x its nearest competitor Japan. Georgia has already been invaded and damaged by Russia. There will be no peace. Of all countries on the Russian periphery they are in need to protection. That need will not disappear. Ukraine's need is even more dire, because they have more to lose. Allying with Russia makes no sense for Ukraine because Russia is not a prosperous society and their is little rule of law. They have already seen a lost century of stagnation under Russia. Why would they return to it? Aligning with the EU and backed by US muscle, Ukraine has the potential to be a powerful competitor for Russia. That is what they fear most.
- Cuchanu, on 11/19/2008, -0/+1What makes you think that I "continue to take a Russians-good America/Georgia-bad attitude"? I didn't say anything of the sort. I would agree with Obama and this report that nobody is innocent. That's usually how it is.
- premiumtours, on 11/19/2008, -0/+0This is very sad :(
- volandkit, on 11/19/2008, -1/+0Yep, it has been very stable during Soviet Union. Iraq also was stable during Saddam. Afghanistan was stable (as stable that country might be) during Taliban.
What Russia did to you personally (forget about media and stop pretending you care about either Ossetia or Georgia), so you separate it from the rest of the world? -
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