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106 Comments
- ckirsch, on 10/12/2007, -3/+47Shhhh! Don't tell the terrorists!
- titlesaysitall, on 10/12/2007, -5/+38It's amazing that airports get the tightest security ever but train stations have none. Someone could easily ignite an explosive on a train and do alot of harm. I just find it very wierd.
- z3rgRush, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23In the near future, airplane passangers will be put to sleep with toxins for the duration of the flight and awoken with the antidote after the landing. Knocked out passengers = no threat. Counter-Terrorists win...?
- jonesin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22@jeremdow:
It's not a real threat anyway. What are the odds that some random part of your life is going to be affected by some criminal ***** who want to hurt you? A whole lot lower than real threats like dying from a drunk driver, that's for sure. - bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Fear works, but only if its controlled... If people are just out and out in a panic it's anarchy...
Today we're scared of planes and terrorists... ORANGE scared...
Perhaps tomorrow we will get to be scared of trains and iranians... RED SCARED!
Then after they run out of colours they'll have to devise a new arbitrarily scary system... - skeib, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19Well, if that becomes reality I'd say that the terrorists won, as they will then have succeeded in screwing up our society (as if they haven't done that already).
- SuperMank, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Two thingies:
Madrid '04 - salivalnz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18I'd be up for that! Hook me up to the morphine drip and wake me when I reach L.A.
That'd be awesome. It'd also kill boredom and elminate jet-lag.
Quick! Someone file a patent.... - pilot3033, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19*****!
I have every right to bitch about these stupid restrictions! I don't blame the governments so much for this, rather the news media. If I heard a small report mentioning that the UK stopped a terror plot I would give credit where credit is due (as I do now). But the combined forced of 24-hour news blew this thing way out of the water, allowing the more evil side of the government to attempt to use these arrests as a means to further their fear propaganda. The problem is, we have been over-saturated by the 24hour-news.
In a way, their plan to use the media as a fear device has turned around and bit them in the ass. We've seen so much by now that the majority is finally starting to see the rest of the *****.
Like the article says: "The world hasn't changed; the way we look at it saddly has." - arduenn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15"Knocked out passengers = no threat"
Well if terrorists eat/drink up their explosives first, then board, and finally let their volatile innards ignite by means of slowly dissolving the wrappings around the two-component fuses: terrorists-counter terrorists: 1-1. - jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I, for one, welcome the idea of flying naked.... imagine all the boobies!
On a more serious note, this is blatantly a government propaganda media spectacle... why? Because if those darned terrorists had any brains and watched any news in the last few years, they would have realized it would be far far easier to execute some plot and avoid being foiled by coming in from the mostly unguarded Mexican border. Doh!
And why don't we hear about terrorists coming in from the Mexican border? Wouldn't it be just as symbolic to get a surprise attack from the south to Houston or whatever? 'Course it would, but the boogey men are the one's you hear about in the media. It's all staged by the gov'ts...
It's good to hear that people are starting to wake up and have a doze of scepticism. - jeremdow, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16In my opinion, the increased security measures since 9/11 have been totally unimaginative - there are countless ways for terrorists to strike us - and thus far we have only reacted to individual plots with more manual searches and restrictions. The government could have justified and well-spent billions of dollars on research into new and existing technologies that would mean less hassle and significantly more protection - I honestly don't know why this isn't being done.
- nocountries, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11don't panic - sometimes these "plots" are hopelessly exaggerated by the authorities
for example:
The reality of "liquid bombs"
Yes, it's possible to combine acetone, hydrogen peroxide
and an acid to make triacetone triperoxide (TATP),
the so-called "liquid bomb" scenario.
It's what I-D-I-O-T-S do when they want to make their
own home-made explosives.
TATP is an extremely unstable substance and prone to explode
unexpectedly - and it requires refrigeration of 10 C
or less to be manufactured with any degree of reliability.
The idea that this process could be carried out in
the cramped washroom of an airliner is fanciful at best.
That this feat could realistically be accomplished on
ten different airplanes simultaneously is pie in the sky.
Google "triacetone triperoxide" or "TATP."
also see these videos:
http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/9114.htmlhttp://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/9114.html - JoeyDeacon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I've called ***** on this one since the beginning. It just doesn't wash. Sure maybe some of these guys were up to no good but it did not merit the huge overreaction by the government. The police are just doing their jobs, it is the government who have overblown this and are simply playing into the hands of those who wish to harm us.
The reasons I call ***** are:
1) Threat level only raised to critical after the event. What is the ***** point of that?
2) No enhanced security on any other mode of transport.
3) Planes still allowed to fly in and land over central london. Surely there is a much bigger threat now of attack on inbound flights from pakistan for example however planes are still coming in to land at Heathrow directly over central London. That flight path has always been crazy, if an attack is imminent then it is simply suicidal.
4) Any serious terrorist intent of causing harm to the public of this country could do it easily, just as the 07/07 bombers did. They simply would not come up with a hair brained scheme involving a large number of people smuggling unstable liquid explosives onto 10 jets. There are just too many opportunities for it to go wrong. If you are prepared to die there are plenty of easier ways to do it. The fact that they were apparently going to do a dress rehearsal is also simply unbelievable. Why double your risk of detection in what would already be a hugely risky enterprise.
I have no doubt that there are all sorts of losers and scumbags in this country intent on causing terror of one description or another however this government is simply using that fact to terrorise the people itself. These are distracting and diverting tactics and this government just has to go. - philz, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17Imagine non-human transport through the subway - that would be enormous amounts of material - clogging the tubes!
- freebirdpat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Haven't they done that in Europe? In america we have trains, but most of them are used for non-human transport.
- deanlowe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"In america we have trains, but most of them are used for non-human transport."
I think it might be far worse if "they" blew up a train full of toxic chemicals near a population center. - exsst, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Muslims aren't terrorists you stupid idiot.
This is what the government is doing.
Believe me, I talk to a lot of people, not specifically about this but they bring it up their selves and they begin to discuss it with me. I keep a light touch to the conversation so that I am not pushing any feelings either way and see what they have to say about it all.
The majority of the time, they mention that they think that 'Muslims' are the bad ones, that they are the cause for it all.
My young friend the other day, she said to me "I think Muslims are going to take over the world". This is utter crap but I let people have their own feelings on it.
The government conjures up hate, and divides communities, ever heard of "divide and conquer?".. Fear makes people scared, worried, and more controllable, when communities are split up by the media, that creates fear in societies building yet more fear to go outside.. this fear accumulates until even the most stupid of tasks or decisions are accepted for a false sense of security by the government which just love this.
As a quote above said, "Only traitors try to make us afraid of terrorists". - buadach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@ arduenn
Your point clearly shows the futility of any attempt to use 'security' to prevent a suicide bomber. Thank you.
There is only one way to prevent a suicide bomber and that is to remove their desire to suicide bomb.
I am appalled at how many of our basic rights have been have been taken without consensus by our lying governments in the last five years whilst they continue with murderous foreign policy that is extremely effective at motivating ever more numbers of suicide bombers & radicals.
Violence begets violence. Can anyone see this situation ever improving? - ActiveMatx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I could not bring my water-cooled computer because it had water in it. I am a computer geek, and was treated like a terroist when they saw my computer.
"what I see here is a eletrical device surrouned by water, that could possible be a high explosive" says the security clerk. They dont let me, make me check in my computer, make me sign a waiver incase my computer breaks.
upon arrival, my case has a nice couple of dents in it. (my brand new Lian-Li V1200) case by the way. - dubbin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7NO NO NO
You don't get to screw with the date on this one. This happened in the UK so it is 10/8, NOT 8/10.
It was, incidentally, the worst terror plot since 11/9. - babayada, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7There are so many different ways for terrorists to achieve their ends. There is no end to their ingenuity. With every new security measure comes new ways to work around it. Sounds familiar.
So what are we freedom loving folk left with? An increasing amount of security procedures that are quickly becoming absurd and making our lives Kafka-esque. Our civil liberties dwindle and we allow ourselves to be subject to all number of embarrassing and inconvenient stupidities. Charades to make us feel we are secure. How many terrorists have been stopped at the gate? How many lives have been saved by x-rays and random searches? Is it really worth it?
Frankly, I'd be willing to take the risk of flying without all the nonsense. Why should I be made to feel and be treated like a criminal because I want to fly on a plane? The chances of being a victim are minimal, and no part of a life worth living is without risk.
I remember as a kid being shown images of civilians in other countries with armed soldiers in uniforms standing menacingly among them. The intention was to show us how good we have it in the United States and how oppressed and fearful those in other countries were.
And what did we see in response to a planned terrorist attack in the US? Soldiers in uniforms with automatic weapons, standing among civilians, eyeing them suspiciously. This shows the terrorists that they are winning. But our leaders are too stupid to realize that.
I cannot be the only one to whom those images spoke volumes and who is fed up with all this nonsense. In any person's life, when one experiences tragedy, there comes the temptation to just run and hide, to live with caution. I know that when confronted with such a temptation, I have ultimately felt it is impossible to live like a rat in a cage. I would rather risk being hurt and have a life than live timidly, like a coward, and allow my freedom to be taken away. Life is meant for living. A totally safe, secure life is unbearable, because such a life cannot be truly lived. - drsnooks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"....Haven't they done that in Europe?"
(ahem) They did - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2005/london_explosions/default.stm - JoeyDeacon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6If I'm not mistaken it also takes a long time to actually crystalize the explosive matter, many hours. You can't just whip it up in the bogs on a short haul flight.
- Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6NO! dont search it up, the governments are watching your internets remember. theyll bust down your door and pull a patriot act on you
- geekThing, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5They just did so in Mumbai, India about a month back.
7 trains blown up at the same time! - goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Thanks for that link. And in case anyone wants to go directly to the Cato paper itself (it's a PDF):
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv27n3/v27n3-5.pdf - Experiment626, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Once terrorism (or even the threat thereof, as in this case) results in forcing people to go out of their way to radically change their lifestyles, living in constant fear of attack, then the terrorists have won.
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Mike:
1) You can increase security transparently without this ridiculous threat scale.
2) I guess you missed the London, Madrid and Indian train bombings
3) Why's it racist to mention Pakistan? That's where Al-queda supporters go.
4) How do you know they planned it well, other than the same story the government is telling you? - BionicBeefpile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's a comment submitted by a reader, not someone employed by the NYTimes
- Sukino, on 10/12/2007, -4/+85th Element
- highvolt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I couldnt agree more.
I've made very small amounts of this a couple of years ago, and the mixture required 12 hours in the fridge before the reaction was done. Also, if the crystals are not completely dry, TATP seemed to burn violantly, not explode.
Dry crystals however were quite powerfull. I remember a crystal the size of a grain of salt that was sitting on some aluminium foil. After the tiny cristal detonated, it left a 2 inch hole in the foil.
However, i would NEVER put more then a gram in a container. The top crystals would put enough pressure on the bottom crystals to trigger an explosion. - dank4000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Weird thing is you could still get liquid explosives onboard. All you need to do is put it in a prescriptions drugs bottle and your find. It's not tested in the same way the only other allowable liquid, baby milk is.
- JoeyDeacon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+41) Two words: Mass Panic. And the terrorists would probably figure something was up and be a tad more suspecting to their arrest.
Then what is the point of the threat level indicator? Completely useless unless it is there to indicate the threat. Otherwise it is a post threat indicator remidning people that there was a threat but now it has passed.
"2) No enhanced security on any other mode of transport."
What are they gonna do, hijack a train and drive it REALLY FAST between stations?
Er no but they could take some bombs on the train and perhaps explode them?
"3) Pakistan? Racist much?
People would be more pissed off if their flights were redirected -- or cancelled. And that's what this whole article's about - pissed of people
Err no not racist but perhaps common sense and intelligent profiling. Given that Pakistanis were apparently involved in this plot and I imagine that their security measures are perhaps not as secure as we would like. Yes it woudl be an inconvience but right now everyone is inconvenienced down to a middle England mother and her 3 young children. That is just stupid and inefficent.
4) " That flight path has always been crazy, if an attack is imminent then it is simply suicidal."
I think most suicide bombings are suicidal ;)
Yeah their suicide not mine smartass.
"4) Any serious terrorist intent of causing harm to the public of this country could do it easily, just as the 07/07 bombers did. They simply would not come up with a hair brained scheme involving a large number of people smuggling unstable liquid explosives onto 10 jets."
They planned it out pretty well, just got busted in the process
Err no they suceeded in killing about 75 people actually. Sometimes better to say nothing if you know nothing.. - JangoFett, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Maybe we need Penn Jillette's idea of "Bacon and a Kiss Airline". Everyone who boards the plane has to put a piece of bacon in their mouth and kiss a person of the same sex.
- daveyt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Great idea JoeyDeacon. Can i suggest first of all starting an airline for Muslims only? Let them blow their own airliners up. We will of course need to be able to accurately identify who is and isnt a muslim so we dont mix them up with normal people!! I suggest a badge system, something bright and shiny and instantly identifies them as a muslim. A nice bright yellow star will do! Hmm, damn, what if they take them off?? They are pretty devious after all. I know, lets keep them in one place. We could round them up and put them in camps. There must be loads of places we could keep them. Then they wouldnt need to fly anymore! Hurrah! Problem solved.
JoeyDeacon, do you find yourself torturing small animals just for fun? Just wonderin... - Experiment626, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Well, they've already banned all liquids, gels and beverages on board the metro rail transit systems over here in Metro Manila:
http://services.inq7.net/print/print.php?article_id=15068 - ShrimpCrackers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Too much toxins and you could kill, plus the levels must be constantly monitored. On the otherhand, a pressure change can knock you out safely, like in the movie, The 5th Element.
- jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4noooo, it would just cause more anger and resentment and unity against the west... and you don't want to piss off and unify 1/4th of the worlds population against you. that's just plain stupid.
- ddev2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Raada
Thank You - boyinuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I was travelling past Heathrow yesterday, and I realised how easy it would be for somebody to come into the country with a RPG or such likes, stop on a bridge, and fire an RPG at the planes that are landing every 3 or so minutes. It'd be so easy, I can't understand all these additional security measures, they only make it difficult for the honest traveller not the terrorists.
They have already won the war, we are radically curbing our freedoms out of a fear of them, terrorism isn't the acts themselves but our constant perception of fear. - dizzley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4One of the suspects held by the UK police was a Caucasian. Richard Reid the attempted "shoe bomber" hardly fitted the superficial profile. Yes, it makes sense to pay more attention to some passengers than others. A family group going on vacation is less likely than the sole traveller that just bought a ticket at the last minute. However, pre-judging people for special attention is going to pee them off and is not going to catch everyone.
What has really pissed me off is the headlines: "Air plot terror" and "death in the air" headlines as opposed to "plot foiled". I for one am grateful that a tragedy was averted but I think it's all about setting public expectations for the next big successful attempt. You can stop 999 of these threats but one will get through. - NerdyNinja, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ jeremdow
I agree - the current protections don't really do all that much, in my opinion.
Of course, it's kind of difficult to defend against all angles of attack. I doubt there will ever be a totally secure system until we can monitor everybody's thoughts at all times - no small feat, besides being clearly unethical. - terrya64, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just imagine, first they stop us from taking knifes, scissors and those type of things on the planes, now its any liquids and gels. What happens if the terrorist find a way to make explosives out of clothing? Some type of explosive linen or fiber. We could then be flying nude. :)
- Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4what if the terrorists start employing white females to circumvent the racial profiling?
I mean if your letting a major group through unchecked, whats preventing them from being a terrorist or even having a bomb hidden in their bag - wetworx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5"David Wright, a New York Times online contributor, said, "I wish either the U.S. or U.K. government had enough credibility to make me believe that this is not just another political charade, conveniently timed for the U.S. election in November. The Bushies in particular have a history of turning tiny groups of unhappy Muslims into supposed al Qaeda operatives."
I find it amusing tha tthe NY times is denouncing someone else as lacking credibility, no, like a real, snorting laugh. And that the TImes woudl use the term 'Bushies', I mean, could they be any more partisan? If it weren't so destructive to our country, it would really be funny. - mousky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Agreed. Besides, it's not airport security that thwart's these plots. It is good investigative policing with some the aid of timely tips. If security officials and experts are so worried about liquids and gels, why didn't they ban them over 10 years ago, when a terrorist conducted a trial run killing one person?
- blackjack75, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Is Mexico a key ally in the war against great fear?
By flying from UK to US (just in time for primary elections...) they show everyone that fear ..uh terror, is everywhere and that if you don't vote for warmongers planes are going to blow up. - soulcatcher78, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2yeah!!! the voice of scientific reason.
- raada, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5There is only one form of anti-terrorist security action that really works... don't create enemies.
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