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Psychologists to CIA: We condemn torture

salon.com — The American Psychological Association, the world's largest professional organization of psychologists, is poised to issue a formal condemnation of a raft of notorious interrogation tactics employed by U.S. authorities against detainees during the so-called war on terror, from simulated drowning to sensory deprivation.

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Mattman9876 1 year 24 days ago, made popular 1 year 23 days ago

750 diggs
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webcure, on 10/10/2007, -4/+9I wanted to digg this. We have the same taste.
I digg it!
- ToadLeg, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3What is the APA's stance on current MK-ULTRA style abductions?
mblanken, on 10/10/2007, -11/+21Where is the outrage over the betrayal of American ideals, our legacy as advocates of human rights, the wanton infliction of pain and suffering, and the disdain that the Bush administration has for the general welfare of the U.S. and other citizens of the world?
- Jambi, on 10/10/2007, -5/+6But...but...9-11! Stay the course! Don't cut and run! Why do you hate our freedom?! And if that's not enough for you, just remember: technically, it's not torture (thank you John Yoo!), so our consciences are clean!
- akexakex, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2US... advocates of human rights?! haha.. honestly? ehh.. haha
  - Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Well, we try.
    
    Not like there are a ton of countries out there that have no blood on their hands.
Lyk4n, on 10/10/2007, -6/+12***** torture
- ultrawhat, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1^- The best kind.
skydharma, on 10/10/2007, -4/+4so did the ABA: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070810/ap_on_go_pr_wh/aba_national_security
Albionshores, on 10/10/2007, -6/+19Not only is it cruel and barbaric, it is ineffectual and places our own foreign workers in more danger. That prospect is even entertained is an indictment. That there should be an Administration in power that is not repulsed is abhorrent, but that there should be an Administration that condones it - that is the death of a nation.

The ideals will survive but everything else that the US has achieved to date should be stricken from the records. America has to start again from square one and rebuild its standing.
- Raidenwolf, on 10/10/2007, -4/+0Hi, I got an easy one for you get, Bonds record stricken. It was just made so it should be easy to reverse.
  Oooh torture is Barbaric, not a worthy practice of us benevolent Americans, such a convenient stance. So tell me what is so Non-Barbaric about 14 year olds giving birth. About cutting the tip of a penis off without the owners permission. What's non-barbaric about our prison system, where as a ward of the state you can count on being sodomized, and raped daily. I think our society has plenty of barbaric customs to rid of before we worry about getting rid of a "tool".
  
  The world is full of different people some barbaric some not, use whatever tool works, for that occasion. As for blaming the administration, I am NO SUPPORTER of Bush, but really if you play the word association game with 100 people I would bet the most popular association for CIA is Torture. This predates Bush Clinton Bush Reagan Carter Ford Nixon on and on.
  - Albionshores, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Just because you didn't invent barbarism doesn't mean you should feel obliged to continue it. If it is barbaric the humane thing to do is to stop it. On an aside, if you retain your civility and composure people will be more inclined to listen to you and you wouldn't feel the need to come across so abrasive. Like with the barbarous practices, you seem to be in a vicious circle.
malkir, on 10/10/2007, -17/+6Psychologists == Terrorists
- spyd3rweb, on 10/10/2007, -5/+10CIA == Terrorists
- malkir, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7God people are dumb.
- CeeJayDK, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2What are you ? A Scientologist ?
  - malkir, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Did I say "Xenu people are dumb"? Have you ever heard of sarcasm? I can't believe people automatically assume someone was being serious when they said something so blatantly ridiculous.
fr0ng, on 10/10/2007, -5/+9CIA: Oh well then...now that you've formally made a complaint, we will stop torturing prisoners around the world!!!!11one
SillyRabbits, on 10/10/2007, -4/+20CIA to Psychologists: Give us 2 days, we can change your minds. :)
JJsays, on 10/10/2007, -10/+6psychologists fight wars? A Saturday night live skit here.
StanleyKoolPrik, on 10/10/2007, -6/+11Are these the same guys that invented the "time out"?
- Smight, on 10/10/2007, -8/+2Don't sell them short.
  
  They also invented repressed/recovered memories.
- siszam, on 10/10/2007, -6/+13Time outs work. You should stop beating your children and try it.
  - HolisticIsland, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5Yes, because spanking is exactly the same as beating.
    - LadyKofNYC, on 10/10/2007, -6/+4To a small child, Yes
    - nazadus, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4@LadyKofNYC:
      
      It's all about perception.
      The kid doesn't know what getting beaten is really like, however I'm certain they would know the difference between getting hit by a belt and punched in the face (with real force) repeatedly until blood comes out their eyes.
      The difference is significant, however as a parent you don't want your child to know what getting beaten is like, but some parents learn that giving their kids a little bit of pain gets the idea across of "oh *****, I shouldn't do that anymore" -- hopefully. If it doesn't, then parents sometimes gives up. The assholes beat harder until it leaves serious marks and damage.
    - rogelio55, on 10/10/2007, -3/+0I bet your kids still live in the basement.
    - rogelio55, on 10/10/2007, -3/+0I bet your kids still live in the basement.
- encrypter, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2These are the same guys who invented APA citations...they`ve made my life as a student miserable.
- Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1And this relates to the ethics of aiding and abetting a government agency committing a crime against humanity in what way?
spyd3rweb, on 10/10/2007, -3/+8CIA to Psychologists:

We cannot deny nor confirm such reports of torture if they did infact exist.
rogelio55, on 10/10/2007, -12/+1Who would have thought that psychology majors got jobs besides working at TGIFridays?!?!??!
IslandDog, on 10/10/2007, -9/+5"detainees during the so-called war on terror"

You probably meant to say....."terrorists caught during the war on islamic terrorism.
- grumpyrain, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5So much for innocent until proven guilty by an independent and impartial judicial system with appropriate appeals process, laws regarding evidence etc.
Infantrydude, on 10/10/2007, -5/+6Oh please has any here taken an Intro to Psych class and read about the experiments Psychologists have done? Or that until the early 1980's Psychologists believed that pedophiles could be cured by counseling and reccomended that treatment even in criminal trials?How about "Repressed Memories" or Rind et al. (1998) where the APA published in Psychological Bulletin an article that child sexual abuse "does not cause intense harm on a pervasive basis regardless of gender."? Yep the Bulletin is peer reviewed. The APA has a lot to correct before they criticize others.
- Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yeah, the experiments that happened decades ago and resulted in the code of ethics I have already linked to in a previous posts. Your other two points, while nicely inflammatory, are not pertinent to the discussion at hand. A theory proved incorrect and a controversial study does not invalidate a stance that coincides with the APA's ethics guidelines.
  
  By your standards the Catholic church can't take a stance against genocide because of the sex scandals they has been going through. Hell, with the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians they couldn't either by your argument.
digbird, on 10/10/2007, -8/+4I can hardly wait for the next logical step...prohibiting psychologists and psychiatrists from advising the FBI about how to catch serial killers. I'm not joking here. You could make a coherent and logical argument that such individuals would likely suffer if they were apprehended and placed in a prison...ergo, since the Hippocratic Oath stipulates, "first do no harm," you could say that they should not give such advice.

I can understand psychologists not wanting to participate in rough interrogation techniques, but do we really want to create a situation where a psychologist can't offer discrete advice to interrogators about how to get someone to talk? Just by observing a detainee through a two-way mirror, I would be willing to bet a psychologist could give pointers to the interrogators simply about what lines of questioning should be taken. Does it make sense to prohibit that along with advising people about how to hurt them?

And once again, we have the phenomenon of people saying as if they were experts about interrogation that harsh treatment doesn't work. Before making categorical statements like that they ought to read "A Savage War of Peace" by Alistaire Horne about the French experience in Algeria.

I am not advocating water-boarding or conducting false executions or other things that inflict tremendous mental or physical pain on people....But I think we are being stupid if we abandon a whole range of tactics that are designed to disorient and keep a detainee off balance and more likely to answer questions.
digbird, on 10/10/2007, -5/+5I wonder how many people mouthing off about this on Digg would be willing to sign a document saying, "If as I demand, coercive interrogation techniques are no longer used, and a horrific terrorist attack happens because a terrorist in custody refused to talk voluntarily about it, I promise on my honor not to scream bloody murder about how the authorities should have done 'whatever it takes' to get the necessary information."
- otheruser, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5Aside from the fact that MOST of the tortured detainees at Guantanamo have not been charged with a single crime (and are unlikely to), and that countless intelligence and military officials have denounced the effectiveness of torture-based interrogations, and that the U.S. claims to adhere to the Geneva conventions, and that Bush denies torture, torture is STILL not a viable argument.
  
  Why?
  
  Torture is horrific, inhumane, savage, barbaric, and a symbol of extreme cruelty. The United States, as the world's foremost democracy, CANNOT support it.
  
  If the police suddenly started torturing gang-members, I can guarantee you that lives would be saved. But the even so, it would never be implemented, because it is AGAINST our most basic values.
  - mike17032, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2Prisioners of war do not need to be charged with a crime.
    
    And right or wrong, its a pretty ***** good way to get info out of someone.
    - grumpyrain, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3*****.
      
      Tortured people will tell you what they think you want them to say, anything to make you stop. Removing the whole moral question about whether torture should be allowed, it has been repeatably demonstrated to be a reliable way of getting hopelessly inaccurate information.
    - Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1If they are POWs then they fall under the Geneva Convention. If they are under the Convention then torturing them is a war crime and some people need to be tried by the World court.
      
      This is why Bush is trying so hard to put them into legal limbo. If they get tried by the criminal justice system then torturing them invalidates their confessions and more than likely gets them a 'Get out of Jail free' card. If they are POWs my previous statement holds true and the US is in deep *****. Oh and they get a 'Get out of Jail free' card. This is also another good argument as to why the 'War on Terror' is a farce and why there was a sudden push to amend the federal War Crimes act.
      
      Look, it is this simple. The Bush administration completely ***** up when they started playing semantic games with what constitutes torture. It is no longer a matter of if but of when and how this will bite us in the ass down the road. It is a matter of record that we have already tortured an innocent man. How high of a price do we want to pay just so we can perpetuate an act that provides us with no security and makes us just as bad as the terrorists we are trying to fight?
- Depthfunction, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5I'll sign. Of course the government has an obligation to try to protect its citizens, but torture is one of those lines that can never be crossed. We claim to hold the moral high ground in this so-called "war on terror" but each time we torture a prisoner, we slip a little bit lower towards the level of those we are fighting against. The more we torture, the more that people around the world will simply see this conflict as two groups of terrible people fighting it out, and if another big terrorist attack is carried out in America, you will hear millions--if not billions of people around the world say, "Well, they deserved it." It's hard to imagine a repeat of the outpouring of support that people around the world offered America in 2001.
- Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Yep, I'll sign. Torture doesn't accomplish *****. It provides a legitimate grievance that our enemies can use against us to recruit terrorists and justify attacking us. 99 percent of the information you get from torture is worthless. Once we use torture on a suspect we can't try them and the way the Supreme Court has been ruling against most of Bush's detainee policies lately we'll probably have to let some of the real bad guys go. Torture burns political karma with our allies. The ticking bomb scenario is for all intents and purposes a myth. In all the news articles I have seen which have interviewed real interrogators there has never been one confirmed case of a ticking bomb situation.
  
  And even when 9/11 did happen I never advocated that we do "whatever it takes." That slogan is nothing more than a reactionary bleating from people that do not wish to apply critical thought to the actual problem at hand.
- 2reflective, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I'll sign it. You get what you give in life. Give a smile, get a smile back. Give a punch, get a punch. And so on...
- Albionshores, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I'd sign it in a heartbeat. Torture is wrong whatever the circumstance. It is called principle.
LordSlashstab55, on 10/10/2007, -3/+0as if anyone can look into what the CIA is actually doing...
davenp35, on 10/10/2007, -5/+4This is just about the most irresponsible and unprofessional action any professional organization has ever taken. There is no sarcasm here either. Professional organizations should not be in the business of radical leftist political activism...EVER! I'm a member of the APA btw. Very sad!
- nblsavage, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Of course if they had supported the use of torture, you'd have no problem with that.
- Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5Please go reread http://www.apa.org/ethics/code2002.html
  
  Note in the introduction:
  "Membership in the APA commits members and student affiliates to comply with the standards of the APA Ethics Code and to the rules and procedures used to enforce them. Lack of awareness or misunderstanding of an Ethical Standard is not itself a defense to a charge of unethical conduct."
  
  If you disagree with this so strongly then please take the time to rescind your membership.
- nick111, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Since when is being anti-torture radical leftist polictical activism? I mean seriously, try to think about what those words actually mean.
  
  God you people are screwed up. How did the US get to be filled with so many idiots?
  - Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Somebody's never watched "24" I see... .
  - davenp35, on 10/10/2007, -1/+11) Reported for being ossensive
    2) Being anti-torture isn't leftist, suggesting we do torture and trying to play politics with this lie IS
    - Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1So you are denying that we send people to dark sites and other countries which do torture to interrogate suspects? You are denying the fact that the US sent a falsely accused Canadian citizen to Syria when it was documented that he was tortured? These facts have been corroborated by governments we consider allies and in investigative journalism pieces.
      
      You're buried, reported and blocked. You didn't report for a post being offensive. You reported to censor a dissenting opinion. That's gaming the system in the lowest way possible.
otheruser, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1***** liars.

"And there is another worry. Psychologists interviewed by Salon noted a series of potential loopholes embedded in the resolution condemning CIA tactics. A simple example is the ban on isolation and sleep deprivation, favorite tactics of the CIA. But the resolution from Brehm and the APA leadership only forbids the methods when "used in a manner that adversely affects an individual's physical or mental health." There will be efforts in San Francisco to plug those loopholes, and to force a vote on a moratorium."
fsjonsey, on 10/10/2007, -6/+3Awww, we might hurt the terrorists feelings. How thoughtful of the APA to think of the feelings of the suicidal maniacs over the psychological impact the killers may have on their victims.
- nblsavage, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5"Whoever battles monsters should take care not to become a monster too, for if you stare long enough into the Abyss, the Abyss stares also into you." - Nietzsche
  "We have met the enemy, and it is us" - Pogo
GayImam, on 10/10/2007, -7/+0Blessed is the APA.

They also say that Gay marriage is good and wholesome.
I wonder what the APA's ethnic makeup is?
- nblsavage, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Aw, it's ok GayImam you can come out of the closet. We're all friends here.
- EllimistX, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Well, psychologists are supposed to be open-minded and nonjudgemental...goes with the territory.... (And yes, I know that not all of them are, emphasis on supposed to)
chubbybubba, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1End Torture Now!!.... John Mayer, thats enough!! please... stop.
diespectra, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1...but we don't torture. We use enhanced interrogation techniques. (sarcasm)

Seriously though I don't trust the APA .. Just look at Ewen Cameron the president of the APA, running mind control experiments sanctioned by the CIA in the 50's and 60's using psychedelics and out of control electroshock therapy.
- nick111, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Wasn't that like 40 or 50 years ago?
rogelio55, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3the laws of man will never trump those of nature; read: I'd rather get my hands dirty and control my fate than to be a righteous corpse.
littlebylittle, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1OK so I'd call this the biggest no-brainer in the history of the Universe.

BUT, why aren't they (we) issuing the same condemnation of the torture we allow in US prisons, i.e., looking the other way while prisoners rape and brutalize other prisoners? Why the double-standard?
- Flower2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Bleh. I'm sorry but this type of statement was old in '94 on USENET and it was molding back when I was born in the 60s. The topic of discussion is X but why aren't we concerned about Y!
  
  Who says we're not? Why are you assuming that the out of the collective We that there is no one focusing on that issue? The US has over 302 million people in it. There are 6.6 billion around the world. I'm sure that out of those masses there are some groups out there debating and working on prison violence. What are you expecting? That somewhere in one of my retorts to JamesSpaza I'm supposed to suddenly interject "And prison rape is really horrible too!" Duh! Of course it is.
  
  But it isn't a double-standard that I'm not talking about it here and now.
hockeyisgd, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I'm just waiting to hear how John Travolta condemns this months down the road...because anytime he opens his mouth about Scientology it seems to be out of place.
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Psychologists to CIA: We condemn torture

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