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Pilots Sleep Through Landing Procedure

telegraph.co.uk — Two pilots who slept through their plane's landing procedure despite repeated radio calls from air traffic controllers were fired by their airline and temporarily suspended from flying.

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  • granolajoe, on 09/24/2008, -2/+150Hmmm. Somehow, I don't think a guy with a sleep disorder that causes extreme fatigue is best suited to be an airline pilot.
    • Croecop, on 09/25/2008, -10/+3they should be porn stars
    • chedabob, on 09/25/2008, -0/+22To be fair he was diagnosed after it happened.

      Really though, sleep apnea isn't something that just crops up out of the blue.
      • leerayIG88, on 09/25/2008, -4/+2UFOs come out of the blue.
      • ChronicColonic, on 09/25/2008, -1/+5I think I know exactlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll;gdnddddddddg gv n
    • bxblox, on 09/25/2008, -2/+13THATS DISCRIMINATION!!!
    • mnemy, on 09/25/2008, -0/+13Better than driving a car. At least airplanes have autopilot.
    • schessilibam, on 09/25/2008, -3/+0I definitely agree with you... he shouldnt be flying a plane with that... and what are the consequences for the guys??? They are given a nice holiday... hopefully enough sleep for them!
  • foxhound009, on 09/24/2008, -20/+4hehehhe... omg
  • peterjmag, on 09/24/2008, -1/+84Good to know that when the crew on my flight falls asleep, the plane will just keep flying straight... until it runs out of fuel.
    • martalli, on 09/25/2008, -0/+27Hmmm, not too many airports north of Hawaii, though.
    • Dotcommer, on 09/25/2008, -3/+13Not to worry. All airlines are flown on autopilot. They fly themselves practically. Just taxi, and take off are the only non autopilot procedures.
      • myempyrean, on 09/25/2008, -2/+17Planes can auto-land themselves, they had a show on it on Mythbusters. Pilots are more or less just there now if something goes wrong I guess.
      • BungaloBill, on 09/25/2008, -0/+8There are some approaches where the pilots are not allowed to touch the controls. If you've flown a bit sometime in the past few years, I'll bet you've been in a plane that landed on autopilot.
      • Nothlit, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Most pilots generally prefer to land by hand. CAT III autolanding is generally only done when weather (visibility) conditions require it.
    • ArchieAndrews, on 09/25/2008, -0/+7Another example is the Cypriot 737 that crashed in Greece awhile ago. The crew were incapacitated by altitude due to a valve switch being left in the test position thus rendering the cockpit unpressurized as they ascended. The passengers flew slow circles on auto-pilot til it ran out of fuel.

      http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.tr ...
      • f821, on 09/25/2008, -0/+3I didn't know this had happened, what an awful occurance.

        FTA: "A man whose cousin was a passenger on the plane told Greece's Alpha television he received a cell-phone text message minutes before the crash. "He told me the pilots were unconscious. ... He said: "Farewell, cousin, here we're frozen," Sotiris Voutas said."

        Talk about pulling at the heart strings.
      • xL0Sx, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2So wait.. 121 people died because a jet flew on autopilot into a mountain, and no one could throw on an oxygen mask and pull the pilots out of the cockpit... and LAND! and everyone onboard knew and just waited to die?

        The plane was on autopilot long enough to notice something was wrong, scramble jets, get no response...The pilots couldn't say something in the 23 mins between takeoff and loss of contact.

        Something isn't adding up here. Or i'm just not seeing it.
      • ArchieAndrews, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Actually, they think a flight attendant was able to gain access to the cockpit and was doing whatever he could but it isn't as easy as the movies make it out to land a jetliner. I seem to remember the F-16s initially reported spotting him in the cockpit.

        More details here:

        http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthread.php?t=29610
      • ArchieAndrews, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Also, the pilots didn't know they were in pressurization trouble. They got no warning of trouble at all until they approached approx. 10k feet and then misunderstood the warning. Apparently the warning horn for "cockpit config not set for pressurized flight" sounds identical to another warning horn. As they climbed past 10k, they tried to figure out why they were getting the horn and ran out of time before they were rendered unconscious.
    • centran, on 09/25/2008, -1/+2autopilot FTW! Although I am not sure if it would keep flying straight. I would imagine there would be some kind of failsafe after it gets off the flight plan and just do circles or head to the nearest airport or something.

      BTW, some of the autopilots will land the plane. Also, I am not sure if they have implemented this yet but there was talks about allowing ground control to take over a plane and fly it to safety. I can see in this example how that could be a good thing but it would also be a hacker and/or terrorist wet dream.
    • judicar, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1That's what happened to Payne Stewart, flew halfway across the US with everyone onboard either dead or unconscious.

      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/golf/pga/news/199 ...
      • Philbert, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1I don't know who these people are, but found this article more interesting than the one in this Digg submission. Never thought I'd say that about something in Sports Illustrated!
    • iFrikkenR, on 09/25/2008, -0/+3It'll do more than fly stright; the flight management computer will fly it the whole course. Then, if the pilot manages to wake up for a few minutes once near the destination, he can simply hit a few buttons which will line the plane up with the runway radio beacon and follow the glideslope all the way to the ground. all he needs to do while the plane does this is slow the plane down and apply some flaps as there's no auto function for that. then, once on the ground the autobrakes kick in if set and the airbrakes if armed

      the pilot is really just a supervisor and comms guy

  • wildtangent, on 09/24/2008, -15/+94These problems will become more prevalent. The pilot stress levels have increased dramatically with no relief in pay scales in sight. Pilots are under a lot of stress and are not being well compensated for it. Many pilot like myself are qualified with engineering degrees ( myself for example- an electronics engineer / recent commercial pilot ) and don't make nearly as much as the starting salary of an engineer. Flying is difficult with an enormous amounts of responsibility , training and adds to stress levels in family life, health and these days the pocket book. Airlines seem to have forgotten what they were compensating us for.....

    How is it relevant to this issue... I am still living the lifestlyle of a college student, eating ramen noodles and living in a shared Domicile....so are my fellow pilots. My friends who went to work as engineers are doing much much better... I am still flying for the love of flying but I will stick with it till I don't.... and then You will have under qualified guys that sleep at the Flight Controls.

    I know the Digg crowd is an intelligent one so I don;t need to list the reasons why a pilot's job is important and what happens when the theory of capitalism is not applied to this Job arena.
    • gbarberi, on 09/25/2008, -5/+80You had me right up until "I know the Digg crowd is an intelligent one." You new here?
      • lintmonkey, on 09/25/2008, -2/+16He had me until "The pilot stress levels have increased dramatically with no relief in pay scales in sight."

        Because you know what would've kept them awake? More money.
      • pilot3033, on 09/25/2008, -1/+7lintmonkey: Not really, but it would at least alleviate stress on the downtime that pilots get.
        If you're job entailed that you always be stressed out (as pilots tend to be, because they need to know what to do in every imaginable situation, and even a few unimaginable ones, constantly), you'd expect to get paid a decent amount for it.
        If you felt you were being underpaid, you are more likely to be further stressed out and more likely tot stop caring.

        What these pilots really needed was a better schedule.
        Often times a crew will fly the last flight in at 11pm, and fly the first flight out at 6 or 7 the next morning. Combine that with the fact that there is no routine, and you can work a "day" style shift, but then switch to a night style shift, abruptly shifting your sleeping schedule, making it harder to get to sleep, harder to get a good night's sleep, and harder to wake up in the morning.
        a 4 day trip can amount to only 20 hours of sleep.
      • dafragsta, on 09/25/2008, -0/+5Money has magical properties. For example, I know I'll personally take a lot more ***** if I'm paid well. I'm sure if the pilots were paid better, they would at least feel less like they were overworked AND underpaid. Both things at once is a recipe for utter unhappiness. You need either job satisfaction or compensation that you believe is fair. If you don't have either and stay at the same job, you are officially a wage slave. It's one thing to be a wage slave if you don't have options because most slaves DON'T have options, but if you do, you only have yourself to blame.
    • kstar6, on 09/25/2008, -14/+21Quit complaining about being overstressed and under compensated and then turn around and say you do it for the love of flying... go be an engineer and fly on the side or something...

      • BXRWXR, on 09/25/2008, -4/+4That.
      • pilot3033, on 09/25/2008, -1/+8You do something for the love of it, and tolerate much more than you normally would for the sake of what you love. I'm sure he would be much more unhappy despite the better conditions, if he were another type of engineer.
        The real point is that pilots are overworked, unrested, and underpaid. As are Air Traffic Controllers, by the way. The whole system needs to be improved, and I'm afraid of the consequences as pilot jobs get stretched thinner and thinner and pay scales get lower and lower, while air traffic continues to increase.
      • SupaFlyTNT, on 09/25/2008, -0/+4Airtraffic controllers average over 50k a year once they are in their careers (I worked at PHL), how is that underpaid? They have a *Shortage* of airtraffic controllers which means that yes they are stressed and have to work longer; but thats the field not the pay.

        Noone wants to be an airtraffic controller because of the stress, you have to be a special individual to feel comfortable and react competently with so many lives in your hands. Airtraffic controllers usually are at like 80k in less than 3 years.
      • gooniegoogooz, on 09/25/2008, -2/+6I am an engineer in the workforce for over a decade. I have a love for masturbation to online porn. Since that doesn't pay well, I just leave it to the side as a "hobby" and have kept my day job. Life is not fair.
      • ooby, on 09/25/2008, -2/+0Air Traffic Controllers have the highest paying job that doesn't require a degree (obvious exceptions excepted). While the towers may be stressful, the En Route Centers are far from stressful.
      • pilot3033, on 09/26/2008, -0/+2@ooby
        you have no idea what you're talking about.
        I know a few en route guys you should talk to.
      • ooby, on 09/26/2008, -0/+0Are those the guys that knit at their consoles?
    • betasp, on 09/25/2008, -22/+4You are paid what the market demands. Your pay has nothing to do with "importance" and everything to do with supply and demand. Your job is less important than a trash man's, or a person that pick's corn for a living, or a school teacher. Quit whining.
    • absurdist, on 09/25/2008, -17/+28You're a commercial pilot and you're still eating Ramen and living in a shared house? WTF?? Where's your money going? Gambling? Hookers and blow? Heavy drinking? Or are you one of those who has to struggle by on $100K a year?

      I call *****.
      • candycane4u, on 09/25/2008, -1/+8Only after years of experience does a commercial pilot get to a major airline where the compensation is over $100K per year. The average hiring age of major airline pilots is 37 or 38 years old.
      • pilot3033, on 09/25/2008, -1/+17Very few pilot get paid even close to that. Next time you're on a short hual flight somewhere, ask the pilot how many hours he's worked that day, how much sleep she has had, and where they slept that night.
        I predict that it will go something like:
        8, 4.5, dorm style house where flight crews share beds.

        Column that might give you insight into the life of a pilot:
        http://dir.salon.com/topics/ask_the_pilot/
        Documenting the typical flight crew shift (specifically flight attendants):
        http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/travel/14Airline ...

        the idea that pilot makes boatloads and have easy, glamorous lives is very outdated. It stopped being that way a very long time ago.
      • ang48137, on 09/25/2008, -1/+5Recent grads owe on the order of $100,000 and starting wages are on the order of $30-40,000, maybe as much as $60,000 for the few lucky.
      • kaisa, on 09/25/2008, -1/+17I'm a pilot making a whopping $22k at a regional airline this year. I'd kill for 30-40k entry...
      • falcon1, on 09/25/2008, -1/+11Do some research - starting pay for pilots is closer to 19,000 a year. Long work hours, little sleep, lots of stress. The days of working 2 weeks a month and making 200,000 a year flying to exotic locations are long gone. Don't call ***** on something you clearly have very little knowledge of next time.
      • AmazingSteve, on 09/25/2008, -1/+7You call *****? I suggest you go spend A LOT of money, become a Commercial Pilot, THEN you can pass a judgement call on whether he's full of ***** or not sport. I've been there, and so have the VAST majority of pilots. My first gig payed me 5 grand a year more than I was making as a ***** ramp rat and THAT was almost 20 years ago. I lived with 3 pilots in a house, one of them being our Chief Pilot and Hamburger Helper was fine dining. Have a seat junior.
      • FlyingPhotog, on 09/25/2008, -4/+3Starting pilots being "low-paid" is called paying your dues. You move right up the scale and "top out" at around 10 years, am I right? You guys making $19-22K a year - I bet you're flying reserve for that regional, so you're not exactly full time, which explains the low salary. You're living a dream. 5 years from now you'll be driving a BMW.
    • AyaJulia, on 09/25/2008, -1/+24"Many pilot like myself are qualified with engineering degrees ( myself for example- an electronics engineer / recent commercial pilot ) and don't make nearly as much as the starting salary of an engineer."
      You know, engineers who work at Wal-Mart don't make nearly as much as the starting salary of an engineer, either. You chose a job outside your field. I mean, good on you for living your dream of flying and so forth, but you can't expect the pay of an engineer just because you're overqualified. They hired you to fly the thing, not to take it apart....
    • zadadka, on 09/25/2008, -0/+5Whilst I really do sympathise, the truth is, like the rest of us, you're just another number that gets calculated against bottom-line.
    • HonestAbe, on 09/25/2008, -2/+5How is the "theory of capitalism" not applied? Sounds like exactly the kind of problem it causes.
    • camiller, on 09/25/2008, -2/+3So back on topic. Your saying if they were paid more they would not have been asleep? Cause that is what it sounds like you saying.

      "The pilot stress levels have increased dramatically with no relief in pay scales in sight."

      If you can't make what you want/need as a pilot, do something else.
    • ultraseamus, on 09/25/2008, -2/+3I have a friend whose father flies commercial airliners, he said it was the equivalent of driving a bus, draining and boring, with just about everything automated nowadays. Which does not mean I think they should be paid less, on the contrary they should be paid more, because if the systems fail the job would become very difficult. I have flown glider planes before, which is really fun (actually soloed in one before I drove a car alone). And I considered becoming a commercial pilot for awhile, but I heard too many stories about how much of a drag it is to fly the huge airliners. When I started I am almost positive I had a point, but I have lost it now. Guess I will just wrap it up with the thought that maybe they fell asleep not because of stress, but because of boredom. Of course I realize you are the real pilot here, and you would know much more about the subject then I would, just throwing in this other perspective.
      • pilot3033, on 09/26/2008, -0/+5The bus driver analogy is flawed in that it takes much more to drive a bus than it does to fly a plane. From training onwards.
        There is a great misconception that pilots press a button and the plane flies its self, just setting up the automated systems on the ground is a 1/2 hour ordeal, not to mention actually flying the plane. What happens when the autopilot starts misbehaving? A low-pressure warning shows up on the EICAS? The engines go?
        Flying entails more than just making sure the thing stays straight n' level, it requires one to be on constant lookout and have a solution to any problem at any time.
        Flying is still the safest method of transport, and that's because the training involved is extensive.

        Autopilot advances were able to eliminate the Flight Engineer position (the navigator), replacing methods like De'd Reckoning with GPS. That's about it.

        The pilot defiantly feel asleep due to exhaustion, not boredom. This was an inter-island hop in Hawaii, not a trans-atlantic flight.
    • kigabit, on 09/25/2008, -0/+3The airline industry as a whole is just barely scraping by as it is... it'd be great if they could compensate their pilots more, but where's the money going to come from?
    • nj10ii, on 09/25/2008, -6/+2In reality Pilots are overpaid for what they actually do. Their skills are only really needed in the off chance there's an emergency and they may actually have to fly or land the plane themselves. At that point they are priceless.
      • FlyingPhotog, on 09/25/2008, -0/+4Hours of sheer boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror.
      • Matri, on 09/26/2008, -0/+1Sounds like a couple of rollercoasters I've been on.
      • candycane4u, on 09/26/2008, -0/+1That's absurd!! Pilots actually DO fly the airplanes and while the autopilot may be used at altitude in cruise flight, EVERY take off in EVERY airplane is done manually. EVERY landing is done manually except when auto land is required by weather conditions which is extremely rare. The auto flight system is only as smart as the pilot who programs it. The auto flight system decreases workload but is never required except as stated above, in certain rare weather conditions. Then the pilots have to be ready to take manual control in case anything goes wrong. They have to practice all emergencies every six months and be certified. In addition the pilots and especially the Captain do more than just fly airplanes, he is the leader, final decision maker, customer service representative and an expert on the airplane he flies, and over 10,000 pilots are now federal law enforcement officers with guns. They face daily life and death decisions and just because you do not see it as you sleep in your economy seat that cost you $39, it is happening on every flight. The fact that They are way underpaid at every level in my estimation.
    • Kenzan, on 09/25/2008, -7/+2According to the Air Line Pilots Association, their average major airline member Captain is 50 years old, with 18 years seniority and makes $182,000 a year. A non-major airline Captain is 41 years old with 10 years of seniority and makes $70,000 a year.

      The average ALPA First Officer member at a major airline is 43 years old with 10 years of seniority and makes $121,000 per year, while an ALPA non major First Officer is age 35 with 3 years of service and makes $33,000.

      So the bottom line,
      Airline pilots are, on the whole, paid pretty damn well.
      If you are living with roommates and eating instant Ramen,
      You are not an airline pilot, or even a first officer.
      • candycane4u, on 09/26/2008, -1/+1That is an oversimplified view of reality, and in addition, these guys were not MAJOR airline pilots. They were going to become major airline pilots someday by gaining enough experience at a smaller regional or commuter airline until they got caught napping and violated. The pay scales you quote are averages, and vary greatly by airline.
    • isukeyo, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2I don't see the point of your argument. You claim that this incident was related to stress, yet the article clearly stated the pilots were given 15 hours of break time prior to the flight - how much stress can you have that 15 hours of rest couldn't temporarily resolve. Not to mention that one of the pilots was diagnosed with sleep apnea, which clearly explains why he was asleep. You then also argue about being under payed based on the fact that you have an engineering degree - since when do airlines require engineering degrees? They don't! You got a degree in one field and chose a career in another and you're now complaining that your degree isn't being factored into your salary.
      • pilot3033, on 09/26/2008, -0/+3The following is copy n' pasted from an aviation forum I visit:

        "Day 1: Start noon, end 1am
        Day 2: Start noon, end 1am
        Day 3: Start 9am, end 2pm
        Day 4: Start 5am, end 6pm

        On overnight #1, after getting to the hotel and getting in bed, I'll probably fall asleep sometime after 2am. Thats about 4 hours after I usually go to bed. I'm pretty tired.

        On overnight #2, I fall asleep after 2am again and this time have to wake up at maybe 7:30am. I've gotten 5.5 hours of sleep and have done two 13 hour duty days so far. I'm probably pretty dang exhausted.

        On overnight #3, I have 15 hours, thats great. I use the time to refresh, exercise, maybe go look for some healthy food to eat, and relax. But the last two nights I haven't been going to sleep till after 2am. For a 5am report, I probably have to get up at 3:30am or so, depending on how far the hotel is from the airport and how long it takes to get from the curb to the gate. Thats a wake time only 1 1/2 hours after when my body thinks I should be going to sleep.

        So, say I'm lucky and am able to fall asleep by 11pm. That gives me 4 1/2 hours of sleep, after 5 1/2 the night before. I then work 13 hours that day. Tell me if you'd have trouble staying awake by about that 11th hour on duty.... I know I would.... and thats a totally normal typical schedule for a regional airline pilot. I didn't even throw in any delays or weather or anything to make it even more exhausting."

    • Kenzan, on 09/25/2008, -0/+7The problem is, 15 hours of sex with Stewardesses can wear out anyone.
  • AdeleMor, on 09/25/2008, -3/+5wildtangent: Agreed that the situation is dire. But what would you suggest industry-wide to prevent things like this from happening?
    • wildtangent, on 09/25/2008, -1/+6Better Business model.
      There are few airlines doing very very well...
      reasons.
      1) Southwest used fuel hedging to lock in fuel prices.
      http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/07/25/southwest ...
      2) International airlines like Emirates ordered 55 A-380 and god knows how many A-350 & B-787. meaning they are growing at a phenomenal pace. Second most profitable airline in the world Singapore airline being first. Its just a better overall business model ... People will pay more to fly with you if you provide better and more courteous service.
      3) Southwest has a different business model from the above mentioned airlines
      http://voxbaby.blogspot.com/2004/10/in-praise-of-s ...
      This model seems to be similar to those being adopted by airlines in India who faced the fuel price upheaval but continued expanding.

      Ofcourse this is not a complete solution set... my understanding of airline business is marginal at best.
    • drgmdp, on 09/25/2008, -2/+4robots
    • seomike, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2should have let the IN THE RED airlines fail. New, better business modeled companies would have bought the assets and hired the workers without having to nickle and dime the consumer and overwork the employees to keep their noses above the water.
  • drgmdp, on 09/25/2008, -1/+23only 60 days of suspension?
    • stealthc, on 09/25/2008, -0/+17How long do *you* need to sleep?
    • KSUdesigner, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1It'll be much longer than that, they'll probably never work again. Their main employer fired them, so they need to find work elsewhere. When the next airline asks them "why did you leave the last airline" do you think they'll really hire someone who says "I fell asleep during the flight"?
  • buddysystem, on 09/25/2008, -1/+27Must have been the fish.
    • JargonScott, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2Maybe it's all the basketball?

      "I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes."
    • uptwolait, on 09/25/2008, -0/+3Yes, yes, I remember, I had lasagna.
    • ross., on 09/25/2008, -0/+1I LOL'd.
  • stealthc, on 09/25/2008, -0/+35They say flying is 99% boredom and 1% panic.

    Looks like they opted out of the 1% part.
  • mrcoldcow, on 09/25/2008, -12/+33Maybe there were snakes on the plane?

    Lame joke?

    Okay, I'll leave
    • GorfTron, on 09/25/2008, -2/+4I think that is about as good and any humor attempts here.
    • fatlip, on 09/25/2008, -2/+6you trickster. i'm on the fence of digging your comment and not digging it. i want to bury it because you made a lame joke, but then i want to digg it because you said it was lame and you're leaving.

      ::head asplode::
    • kyle212, on 09/25/2008, -1/+2I bid farewell to you good sir
  • FishHammer, on 09/25/2008, -0/+27well at least they weren't drunk
  • Dumbledorito, on 09/25/2008, -1/+14I'm all for the fly-by-remote systems that are supposed to be in the works. What's the old gag?

    Airlines of the future will be run by one pilot and one dog. And the dog's job is to keep the pilot from touching anything.
  • jerrycan, on 09/25/2008, -0/+7Hmmm, a mercury tilt sensor attached to an alarm added to the pilots cap will solve this.
    • IphtashuFitz, on 09/25/2008, -1/+1Until it drives them crazy every time they have to change altitude, change direction, run into turbulence, etc. And if they have to remember to flip some switch on/off to enable/disable those things they'll just eventually forget to do it (whether by really forgetting or simply being to lazy).
      • camiller, on 09/25/2008, -0/+4OK, how about a sensor that detects REM sleep?
      • IphtashuFitz, on 09/25/2008, -0/+8Better yet, a buzzer or electric shock that the ground controllers can trigger to wake them up.
      • jerrycan, on 09/26/2008, -0/+1normalize/reconcile with tilt sensor in plane? Add an X second grace delay? Do I have to think of everything?
  • liquidkore, on 09/25/2008, -4/+18I have had it with these ***** sheep on this ***** plane!
  • Beefsupreme88, on 09/25/2008, -1/+6They must be some damn good pilots!
  • yellowfish04, on 09/25/2008, -1/+11temporarily?? o_O

    *moves trip scheduled for next February up to next week*
  • paulieslim, on 09/25/2008, -3/+6pilots should be required to wear those eyelid separators from Clock Work Orange.
  • StupotAce, on 09/25/2008, -0/+37Misleading title. I thought they landed the plane while sleeping. Turns out, they just flew past where they were supposed land. LAME.
    • ashfish, on 09/25/2008, -3/+3Part of the landing procedure is actually getting to the airport, maintaining radio contact for clearance on a runway, then you actually get the plane in line for landing. If you totally over shoot the airport because you're asleep yes you missed the first very important step in landing.
    • jtbell04, on 09/26/2008, -0/+1Actually landing the place while asleep would be more awesome than reprehensible.
  • Alli3388, on 09/25/2008, -8/+2Yes, I'm left wondering just how important the pilots are in a normal flight situation!!
    Anyway, I'm thinking they both went on a bender during their rest period and had to sleep it off... Or they did each other in the ***** pit... everyone knows men can't stay awake for longer than a minute after sex.
  • MisterBJ, on 09/25/2008, -1/+2No wonder my wife is terrified of flying!!
    • lintmonkey, on 09/25/2008, -0/+8What is there to be terrified of? The plane practically flies itself!
    • FlyingPhotog, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1That's just her being irrational.
  • lanismycousin, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1wow .. .glad that the plane didnt crash and go up in flames ..

    but 60 days only ?

    wow very lenient
    • IphtashuFitz, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Wouldn't have gone up in flames. Would have crashed into the northern Pacific and sunk like a rock.
    • Orsigno, on 09/25/2008, -0/+0That's a long time to not get paid.
  • rikwakefield, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2It's like a scene out of Airplane.
  • AmazingSteve, on 09/25/2008, -1/+27Having flown for a living when I was younger, I can attest to the mind numbing boredom that can occur sometimes, but on a 45 minute flight in broad daylight after 15 hours of rest? Really? Try being up all day and then having the pager go off at 2am to go do a ***** cargo flight from some backwater airport to some other backwater airport and back. You Goonie drivers out there know what I mean. If you're so tired that you're not going to be able to keep your eyes open for 3/4's of an hour then you need to tell ops that you can't fly and deal with the repercussions rather than risk having the NTSB scraping hair, teeth and eyeballs out of a smoking crater.
  • DemiRonin, on 09/25/2008, -0/+13See...Flyin ain't that hard, you can do it in your sleep
  • displaced1, on 09/25/2008, -0/+3A helicopter pilot I use to work with told me that he would close his eyes during takeoff and landing because he was afraid of heights. I could never tell since he would always pull down the shades from his helmet so I could not see his eyes from the co-pilot seat.
  • zbeast, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Beleave it or not but cockpit crews falling asleep while rare does happen.
    I know a crew on an transatlantic flight were the entire deck crew was sawing away.
    They didn't wake up till it was time for them to eat there meal and someone knocked on
    the door.

    • liljay2k, on 09/25/2008, -0/+4Believe it or not, cockpit crews falling asleep, while rare, does happen.
      I knew a crew on a transatlantic flight where the entire deck crew was sawing away.
      They didn't wake up until it was time for them to eat their meals and .....ahhh ***** it.
  • uneasyryder, on 09/25/2008, -2/+7I hate to all Debbie Downer... but this is a horrible thread title. The pilots didn't sleep through any landing procedure. The plane was not landing while they were sleeping. They flew past the airport and once they woke up they were re-vectored for approach and landing.
    • kaisa, on 09/25/2008, -1/+1digg this guy up!

      misleading title
    • Orsigno, on 09/25/2008, -1/+0Nit picky much?
      • uneasyryder, on 09/25/2008, -0/+0Normally, no... but for some reason when any type of aviation story comes up... the horror is magnified 20-fold.
      • Orsigno, on 09/25/2008, -0/+120 folds, that's like the same amount of folds as a walrus has. *reeuuuuw* (That's supposed to be the phonetic of a walrus noise)
      • Matri, on 09/26/2008, -0/+1The bigger question here is how YOU know the exact amount...
    • camiller, on 09/25/2008, -0/+5Arguably part of the landing procedures is actually starting the landing procedures.
  • Orsigno, on 09/25/2008, -0/+0Hawaii sleep survey; http://archives.starbulletin.com/2008/03/03/news/s ...

    I guess these pilots are part of the 92% that DO get enough. Mwahahahhaha!

  • jsdratm, on 09/25/2008, -5/+3Flying is now mostly automated. Flying, landing, and takeoff are all automated for the most part and the pilot and copilot are only there to enter a flight plan and take over if things go wrong.

    However, that does not excuse sleeping on the job.
    • shaun3000, on 09/25/2008, -1/+3Except, it's not. Taxiing is done by one of the pilots. Takeoff is done by one of the pilots, as is the initial climb-out. After that, they may or may not turn the autopilot on, depending on their mood, really. Landing, in some airplanes, and at certain airports, can be performed by the autopilot but it still requires lots of pilot input. Generally speaking, the landing is performed by one of the pilots.

      Flying is NOT mostly automated, it's only augmented by automated systems to make life easier for the two pilots.

      --A Pilot
  • candycane4u, on 09/25/2008, -0/+7The article is inaccurate at best. The pilots had a 15 hour break previous to flying a 10 hour day with something like 6 take off and landings as I recall from the original story a few months ago. How many people here can work a 10 hour day for 6 days in a row and make 6 take of an landings in a high stress environment and not get tired! While I do not want to become an apologist for these pilots, these are mitigating circumstances. It is bad enough that they have been fired from their regional airline and now have a violation on their record from the FAA. If they had aspirations of becoming Major Airline pilots in the US those plans have been dashed. The reason they received light suspensions is a signal that the FAA recognizes fatigue and "pilot pushing" by airlines is a REAL problem.
    • kaisa, on 09/25/2008, -0/+3the FAA rest rules and requirements are in a nutshell: *****.

      If the general public only knew how tired pilots actually are, they wouldnt fly anymore!
    • ashfish, on 09/25/2008, -0/+5Yeah I have to agree with you there. I do remember hearing our local news pointing out that these guys had been scheduled for back to back flights prior to this flight. Rest time is great, unless you're so wiped out from your schedule that that isn't ample rest time. But the FAA "guidelines" are a ***** joke here anyways. Do you know that the Kona airport has no one in the control tower after 9 P.M. so long as Honolulu can turn on the runway lights? And those guidelines are STILL in place after one or two near collisions. Good job guys! The FAA really has our best interests at heart.
  • libertao, on 09/25/2008, -0/+4"Pfffffft, watch this, I can land this thing with my eyes closed."
  • DroppedGT, on 09/25/2008, -2/+4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tokCFOyKp2M&feature ...
    • candycane4u, on 09/25/2008, -2/+3Sort of reminds me of the remote controlled drones they use in Afghanistan, they just occasionally loose the up link commands and crash! Just imagine if they had 400 people on board!! We are a LONG way from remote controlled passenger aircraft. They will forever require a couple of human brains on board to handle ALL of the problems in addition to just flying the aircraft that are on every flight.
      • stoanhart, on 09/26/2008, -1/+1"They will forever require a couple of human brains on board."

        Considering how far AI has come in the last 20 years, and how our technology becomes exponentially better (at an exponentially faster rate), I think "forever" is more like another 10-20 years.
      • candycane4u, on 09/26/2008, -1/+1@stoanhart - AI is a VERY long way from being able to fly passenger airplanes without a pilot. You way underestimate the complexity of the contingencies involved in flying airplanes in all weather day and night 24/7. AI not not even fly remotely piloted vehicles today. These vehicles are flown and decisions made by two pilots sitting behind controls on the ground and using up linked commands to control these relatively simple aircraft with no passengers on board. It is not even in the foreseeable future to see passenger airlines without pilots - and certainly not in the next 20 years. In 20 years the A360 will still be a new aircraft.
    • Beanstudd2, on 09/26/2008, -1/+1@candy
      the plane wasn't remote controlled
      130 were on board when it crashed
      • candycane4u, on 09/26/2008, -1/+1What are you talking about? I said "predators" crash for no reason. And passenger airlines carrying 400 people - like the A360 and 747 will NEVER be remotely controlled in the foreseeable future.
  • GorfTron, on 09/25/2008, -9/+1Is this what really happened on 9/11?
  • feebes, on 09/25/2008, -0/+9They did not sleep through the "landing procedure", they fell asleep enroute. This aircraft type also can not auto-land.

    People seem to believe that planes fly themselves, as an airline pilot myself I can tell you that isn't the way it works. Certain aircraft CAN autoland, but the vast majority of the time the autopilot is disengaged as the aircraft approaches the airport and is hand-flown in from there. Autoland has tight restrictions on when it can be used and is typically used on foggy days with very low wind in order to land when the pilots can not see outside to land themselves.

    The FAA is the regulatory body that creates rules in regards to aviation. The National Transportation Safety Board investigates accidents and then gives the FAA suggestions on how to fix the problems that caused that accident in first place, it is up to the FAA to decide if they want to implement those rules.

    The NTSB has tried to get the FAA to change pilot rest requirements for a long time, they place it as the highest priority problem with aviation and fatigued pilots have been the cause of many disasters. The FAA refuses to change the archaic rules in the face of new research, and things like this will continue to happen until they do. Those pilots were very tired, what happened was not acceptable, but also no surprising considering how pilots can be treated in regards to rest.
  • Rad4444nunez, on 09/25/2008, -4/+1OMG, After reading this article, I Never want to fly again! Craziness
  • dupek11, on 09/25/2008, -2/+1If ground control was unable to communicate with the pilots they should be able to contact the flight attendants.
  • bluedottx, on 09/25/2008, -1/+4they were both sleeping - yeah right, sounds like some mid-air man passion that was not to be denied!
  • uptwolait, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2Were they really asleep? Did anyone see the flight attendants leave the cockpit just before they "woke up" ?
  • T8erT0T, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1"It's an entirely different type of flying all-together!"
  • bigtoes, on 10/16/2008, -1/+0Those two pilots can get jobs bagging groceries tomorrow & double their income .
  • Greeggorr, on 09/25/2008, -2/+3sleeping pilots....they idiots!
  • JasonCox, on 09/25/2008, -3/+1I'm for jail time here; anyone else?
  • InJectaH, on 09/25/2008, -1/+2"Cocaine's a hell of a drug"
  • lilhelper, on 09/25/2008, -2/+2Most planes have an autopilot anyway...
    the pilots are just there to take control if they need to.
  • bobbknight, on 09/25/2008, -1/+3Inaccurate title for the article no digg.
  • bulldog319, on 09/25/2008, -4/+0Ya'll a buncha Morons!!!!, First, Sleep cycles. If you are used to waking up at a certain time, then you have to be awake at an opposite time, Your 15 hour rest period is gonna be worthless because it is during the part of the day your body wants to be awake. Second, Automation sometimes does some pretty unexpected stuff. It is easier to be in an undesired location vertically or laterally with automation than without.
  • glucoseboy, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Shouldn't they be permanently suspended?
  • slazer, on 09/25/2008, -2/+2maybe they were busy love-making.
    • Kenzan, on 09/25/2008, -0/+2Is that why they call it the *****-pit?

      arrgg,,,digg me down mateys..
  • MysticSavage, on 09/25/2008, -0/+61st Pilot: Dude, I bet I could land this plane in my sleep.
    2nd Pilot; You're on.
  • BungaloBill, on 09/25/2008, -1/+2Raise your hand if you've been in an aircraft where the entire flight crew was asleep for a bit.

    *raises hand*

    Nothing wakes you up better than realizing you were in a jet at FL350 with nobody at the controls.
  • Lunarbunny, on 09/25/2008, -0/+1Thank goodness they didn't fall asleep in the MIDDLE of landing procedures, I assume that autopilot was engaged and they just dozed off while the plane kept itself flying straight and level.
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