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Palestinians lose faith in two-state solution
guardian.co.uk — A group of prominent Palestinian figures has proposed a radical change in strategy to demand a single, bi-national state if the current round of Middle East peace talks fails. The Palestinian Strategy Study Group, an EU-funded project written by 27 leading Palestinian figures from across the political spectrum, argued that the current two-state
Silvbird- 50 diggs
- digg it
- Silvbird, on 09/06/2008, -5/+13I submitted this as much for the picture as the writing - I think it speaks volumes.
- foopirata, on 09/06/2008, -6/+10Yes, it does - who's doing the aggression and the hate? Look at the faces - one is roaring, one is stoically taking it. It speaks volumes.
Peace will only happen when the volume goes down and both faces appear talking and listening.- 911ArtStudent, on 09/06/2008, -9/+12The volume will go down once the Jewish supremacists leave Palestinian territory
- dkapuchino, on 09/06/2008, -5/+9Don't you mean "cease to exist"? "Jewish supremacists" Rocket? Lady K spend the night over?
- urik88, on 09/06/2008, -5/+9Actually, I don't support settlements, but these "Jewish supremacists" left all of Gaza, and the situation only got worse.
Settlements also never were a problem for the peace with Egypt for example. The settlements are just an excuse to wage more war, just like the Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was simply an excuse to start the second intifada. - bernk1, on 09/06/2008, -6/+8911ArtStudent - "once the Jewish supremacists leave Palestinian territory" where should they go? Is there going to be an autonomous region for them, perhaps somewhere in the Bay Area? Where then, Uganda? County Dublin? Your bigotry comes shining through, once again.
- 911ArtStudent, on 09/06/2008, -8/+11They should go back to Israel's internationally recognized borders. You know the ones that existed before Israel's six day war of aggression.
- bernk1, on 09/06/2008, -4/+9911ArtStudent - You write, "They should go back to Israel's internationally recognized borders. You know the ones that existed before Israel's six day war of aggression." Are you saying that Israel has the right to exists as a Jewish state within the borders that existed prior to June of 1967? Please - a straight up "Yes" or "No" will be of great use. There are lots of Israelis, Jews and Zionists that would agree with you if you say "Yes." Please set the record straight on where you stand.
- drz130, on 09/06/2008, -3/+9"six day war of aggression."
There was one side looking to annihilate the other. Thankfully they lost. There was one side that could have annihilated the other, but that wasn't what Israel wanted to do. As the arabs were preparing to strangle and annihilate Israel, Israel opted for defensible borders, and gave land back to Egypt for "peace." War of aggression? Hardly! - bernk1, on 09/07/2008, -4/+5911ArtStudent - To repeat my question, You write, "They should go back to Israel's internationally recognized borders. You know the ones that existed before Israel's six day war of aggression." Are you saying that Israel has the right to exists as a Jewish state within the borders that existed prior to June of 1967? Please - a straight up "Yes" or "No" will be of great use. There are lots of Israelis, Jews and Zionists that would agree with you if you say "Yes." Please set the record straight on where you stand.
- writie, on 09/07/2008, -2/+11Lots of rhetoric in here. IMHO, going back to the 67 borders is almost impossible, given the colonization that has occurred in the West Bank. The fact that this was illegal under int'l law is neither here nor there at this stage. Nonetheless, Israel - despite the shalom, shalom, shalom speeches - has yet to convince me that as a sovereign state it has honorable intentions. Its actions over the past few years have been one of obstruction of a long-term sol'n, and that includes the Gaza withdrawal.
For me, the 67 borders can be used as a yardstick and some bits that have gone over that mark will have to be bartered in one way or another.
The issue of Palestinians that actually own land in Israel and the West Bank that has been confiscated under the "absentee owner" scam are a particular problem.
Concerning the "Jewish state" issue. Whatever Israelis decide to call the state of Israel is OK by me. Requiring other countries, notably Palestine, to start talking in those terms is childish and again counter-productive at this stage. There are far more pressing issues to deal with that directly concern the safety and long-term prospects of peace in the region.
To finish on a bright note: a ceasefire exists with Hamas. A working relationship exists with Fatah. Barak recently talked about relinquishing parts of East Jerusalem. It looks like talks might occur with Syria. There are positive movements concerning the Lebanese border.
Let's not shout so loud we don't hear the whispers of hope.
- RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -2/+4@ bernk1
"911ArtStudent - "once the Jewish supremacists leave Palestinian territory" where should they go? Is there going to be an autonomous region for them, perhaps somewhere in the Bay Area? Where then, Uganda? County Dublin? Your bigotry comes shining through, once again."
Where did they come from? Back to goal in Russia? North Africa? Ethiopia? Whatever hole in the ground that they slid out of. This from someone that has the nerve to make a personal attack on another digger by calling him a bigot without any evidence. When did evidence have anything to do with the Zionist case for a state you ask so why should they now?
On what logic can you import the dregs of the world, nominate them as Jews, and give them instant citizenship in preference to Arabs living off the same land for generation. Extraordinarily, this may be in preference to the alternate state policy of slow genocide against the Arabs to guard against this day when a 'One State' solution and then numbers alone will count. So it's import pseudo-Jews or kill Arabs. Evidence? Just ask!
Previously I have answered the question of where to solve the major cause of the world's disharmony. The Zionist state has invaded every neighbour in its 60 years, some repeatedly. The UN has been longer protecting its borders than any place on earth. With its propensity for war, any present peace with its neighbours can only be seen as semi-permanent. Obviously we cannot move the Arabs so we must move the Russian-Mafia pseudo-Jews. Where?
There's no reason to believe they would reform after 60 years of evidence. It must be where they have NO neighbours to war with. I know the perfect place where THREE problems would be solved. Presently one colonist holds it for future resources reasons and not the sheep, while the South American county who own it could be bought off and save their honour. So three problems solved. It's the Malvinas or Falkland islands, in the South Atlantic!!! Brilliant or not? Then we'd quickly know who are REAL Jews when moving time come.- bernk1, on 09/08/2008, -0/+2To which 911ArtStudent replied "They should go back to Israel's internationally recognized borders. You know the ones that existed before Israel's six day war of aggression."
To which I asked, "Are you saying that Israel has the right to exists as a Jewish state within the borders that existed prior to June of 1967? Please - a straight up "Yes" or "No" will be of great use. There are lots of Israelis, Jews and Zionists that would agree with you if you say "Yes." Please set the record straight on where you stand."
To which he had no response.
Who did I call a bigot? You? If so, the evidence is obvious.
- bernk1, on 09/08/2008, -0/+2To which 911ArtStudent replied "They should go back to Israel's internationally recognized borders. You know the ones that existed before Israel's six day war of aggression."
- RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -1/+1NEVER WRONG??? Again. Blood is thicker than water?
@ bernk1
"911ArtStudent - "once the Jewish supremacists leave Palestinian territory" where should they go? Is there going to be an autonomous region for them, perhaps somewhere in the Bay Area? Where then, Uganda? County Dublin? Your bigotry comes shining through, once again."
"Your bigotry comes shining through, once again." You clearly called 911ArtStudent a bigot. And again I'll quote you "Your bigotry comes shining through, once again." The clear inference that this is not the first time. And there is NO evidence that you have supplied.
If or when I ever attack you personally, I'll supply the evidence in full. You are on full tilt at the moment. Take a blood pressure tablet(s) and a long rest. As a mutual friend I give you this advise. I've never welcomed anyone's death. I've seen enough dead children from Zionist atrocities for two lifetimes. Sleep. More on that soon.
I'd be interested in a respond to my answer as to question as to where they should go for sake of world peace.- bernk1, on 09/14/2008, -0/+2@RightHand - WE ARE NOT MUTUAL FRIENDS as you write in the comments to "Palestinians lose faith in two-state solution" I do not want to be your mutual friend. But we can nod knowingly to one another as we pass on the streets. (And thanks for the flowers and bon-bons.)
Hersch Lieb Mendel Menachem Groucho Chico Harpo Zeppo Gummo Yitzchak Yosef Shmuel Baruch Mottle Tevye Moishe David Shimon Amos Vladimir Ilych Boris Karl Pinchas Larry Moe Curly Manny Moe Jack Naftali Zvulun Rivkele Bernkovskachinskovitzbergerblattbaumeineneurenbergerbrattwurstchenbittemeineliebling
- bernk1, on 09/14/2008, -0/+2@RightHand - WE ARE NOT MUTUAL FRIENDS as you write in the comments to "Palestinians lose faith in two-state solution" I do not want to be your mutual friend. But we can nod knowingly to one another as we pass on the streets. (And thanks for the flowers and bon-bons.)
- foopirata, on 09/06/2008, -6/+10Yes, it does - who's doing the aggression and the hate? Look at the faces - one is roaring, one is stoically taking it. It speaks volumes.
- writie, on 09/06/2008, -2/+7It's a development which is not entirely new. It would, however, require a massive jump on the part of both mainstream Palestinian and Israeli opinion which I just do not see for the moment. It does make a lot of sense, although I can't help thinking that it would be better for Palestine to exist in practice before considering some sort of confederation afterwards.
- writie, on 09/06/2008, -0/+5I wouldn't read too much into it either way: frustration, stoicism, military, civilian; the article is of more interest.
- chrisjj, on 09/06/2008, -7/+13Nothing will change until Israeli society learns to respect Palestinian history and culture and comes to terms with the idea of a multicultural non-Jewish identity existing within their (so far undeclared) borders. Israelis need to learn from the example of the Western nations that have successfully established secular constitutional democracies founded on the basis that all men/women are equal. Some Western nations such as the UK have an established state religion, the role that is mostly ceremonial and traditional but of course people of all faiths and ethnicities are welcomed as citizens to practice their own religions. Also, most Western nations have come to terms with the colonial violence their leaders wrought against ethnic minorities in times past, and have formally apologized to those groups and in many cases have compensated them. In order for Israel to gain the respect and trust of the Palestinians, it must transform itself into a Westernized country, which means creating a written constitution, formalizing it's UN-mandated borders (to the 1967 Green Line), recognizing the Palestinians' UN-mandated Right of Return by compensating them or allowing citizenship to all Palestinians. And, of course, it must recognize the ruling of the International Court and tear down that wall.
- foopirata, on 09/06/2008, -5/+10interesting that you only have demands from the Israeli side.
- chrisjj, on 09/07/2008, -7/+8Well I don't normally reply to your one-sided Zionist comments but I will in this case: in any conflict, the side that claims to advocate justice and be 'the victim' must take action to prove that and not just spout do-nothing PR (as we have seen time and again from the Israelis). Since the Israeli government is by far the most powerful party in this conflict, and because the Israelis publicly always claim to take the high moral ground, isn't it time they actually did something to prove their incorruptibility? Until we see some movement on the part of the Israelis such as I have described above, the Palestinians who are living under occupation and whose culture, existence, and nationhood have been under attack for 60 years, I see no reason to be impartial. Through the conduit of International Law (including most notably the 4th Geneva Convention) and UN mandates, the world has spoken, and were it not for the blind support of my country's government, Israel would have had to have backed down from its militaristic mania years ago.
- foopirata, on 09/07/2008, -4/+7'Well I don't normally reply to your one-sided Zionist comments' - oh how so very magnanimous of you, o Holder of The Debate and All Truth. I thank you from the bottom of my world-controlling conspiracy.
'the side that claims to advocate justice and be 'the victim' must take action to prove that' - pot, meet kettle.
'isn't it time they actually did something' - yeah! I have an idea...let's have an Israeli peace movement! Let's have MK's speaking against the occupation! Radical one, let's evacuate from Gaza! Oh. Wait.
'Until we see some movement on the part of the Israelis such as I have described above, the Palestinians who are living under occupation and whose culture, existence, and nationhood have been under attack for 60 years, I see no reason to be impartial.' - let's translate that: until the Israelis do everything that the Palestinians demand, you see no reason for the Palestinians to be required to do anything. How so....fair, balanced and enlightened of you. How so...excruciatingly infantile and puerile.
'Through the conduit of International Law (including most notably the 4th Geneva Convention) and UN mandates, the world has spoken' - so far, the world has spoken mostly against the Palestinian demands, just in case you haven't noticed. The world that matters (and not the 'inteligentzia' and the pimple-faced conspiracy-theory Che-loving pseudo 'revolutionaires' of Digg). About the 4th Geneva Convention - you may want to check http://tinyurl.com/6lhcrb and http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1220353 ... before engaging into further jingoism. - chrisjj, on 09/07/2008, -4/+8Now you're showing your true rabid colors, foo.
Last I heard, it was illegal under the 4th Geneva Convention for an occupying power to forcibly demolish the homes of citizens in the occupied territories. Let's hear it from the United Nations itself:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8098.doc. ...
What strikes me about your dangerous racist right wing blather is that nowhere do you ever admit that your precious Israeli government has ever done any wrong towards the indigenous Palestinian people. You and your like are totally blinded. And the reason I use the word 'dangerous' is because the outcome of your kind of group psychology will surely be World War Three with, of course, US Citizens once again fighting on behalf of these self-serving and parochial Israeli foreign policies. - foopirata, on 09/07/2008, -2/+7"Now you're showing your true rabid colors, foo. " - oh my gosh, you got me! Oh! Oy vey! Let me run and hide! No. As always, you got close to no idea of what you're talking about.
"Last I heard..." - you should clean your ears then. The 4th Geneva Convention (full text here: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument ) says nothing about house demolitions. It does say something about not punishing people by extension,as in the case of demolishing the house of a suicide bomber (which is a false pretext since it stands not as retaliation but as a warning), and in any case, most of the demolished homes are either built without permit or used as labs or tunnel mouths (not that there haven't been mistakes). So, you should get better informed before parroting.
"nowhere do you ever admit that your precious Israeli government has ever done any wrong towards the indigenous Palestinian people." - i've done so in many posts in the past. Nobody is perfect and yes, bad people exist and bad mistakes happen. I'd never go so far as saying that nothing has ever been done wrong.
Now substitute Israeli for Palestinian and vice-versa, and let's see if you can say the same as I do.
"US Citizens once again fighting on behalf of these self-serving and parochial Israeli foreign policies" - right, remind me when it was that that happened _first_, will you? Last I noticed the US fights for the US, nobody else.
Please do try to contain the conspiracy theories and instead do bring something plausible, will you? - bernk1, on 09/07/2008, -2/+5chrisjj -- regarding the demolition of Palestinian homes -- are you aware that years ago the Israeli government said was going to eliminate this policy which dated back to the days of the Ottoman Empire, and was followed by the British Mandatory forces and the Jordanians? Guess what, the Palestinians and the Arab world had conniption fits about the Zionists unilaterally imposing their ways in occupied territory. Research this on your own.
- RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -3/+4@Chrisjj
"In order for Israel to gain the respect and trust of the Palestinians, it must transform itself into a Westernized country, which means creating a written constitution, formalizing it's UN-mandated borders (to the 1967 Green Line), recognizing the Palestinians' UN-mandated Right of Return by compensating them or allowing citizenship to all Palestinians. And, of course, it must recognize the ruling of the International Court and tear down that wall."
Excellent post. Personally I'd substitute 'the West' instead of 'the Palestinians' so to read ""in order for Israel to gain the respect and trust of the West, it must transform itself into a Westernized country". A small change but maybe then the Zionist might pay attention to your point. It is interesting that they chose to ignore your excellent point. - foopirata, on 09/08/2008, -1/+3http://www.nato.int/multi/2007/071022c-nato-israel ...
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/israel/inde ...
Interestingly enough, it seems Israel already has the respect and trust of the West. And in comparison with the other countries in the region, it is by far the most Westernized.
Oh them facts, damn facts... - RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -2/+2@Bernk1
"chrisjj -- regarding the demolition of Palestinian homes -- are you aware that years ago the Israeli government said was going to eliminate this policy which dated back to the days of the Ottoman Empire, and was followed by the British Mandatory forces and the Jordanians? Guess what, the Palestinians and the Arab world had conniption fits about the Zionists unilaterally imposing their ways in occupied territory. Research this on your own."
The Zionist are never to blame. EVER. Someone else else is always to blame. The fleeing mothers with their children, under Zionist direction in the 2006 Lebanese War at Qana (twice) were to blame for the IAF sky-murders blowing them to hell. Suicidal mothers responsible for their own children's deaths for obeying Zionist directions. So blow up their houses, and their bridges, and their oil depots and pollute the seas for a generation.
Now the Ottoman Empire and the British Mandatory forces are responsible for the illegal policy of house demolitions!!! When will they be reintroducing public hanging, and decapitation? Maybe it's unwise to say this as they will introduce these measures and blame me.
The ABCs of Home Demolitions in Israel
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/1560
April 18, 2007 By Eileen Fleming
TFA
The Fourth Geneva Convention forbids an Occupying Power to extend its law and administration to an occupied territory, rendering the very process of granting or denying permits to Palestinians, not to mention Israel's policy of house demolitions, patently illegal under international humanitarian law.
Resigned to the reality that the Israeli courts do not admit international law, the Shawamrehs' lawyers raised the illegality of applying a plan, RJ-5, that had never been revised over the past 65 years despite significant changes in demography and land use, including the construction of some 300 settlements, themselves illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention, which the Israeli government approved on the very same land that had been designated agricultural and on which the Shawamrehs and thousands of Palestinian families had been denied their fundamental right to housing.
Finally, the illegality of repeatedly demolishing the Shawamreh home under the original "perpetual" demolition order was questioned, especially since such a practice is illegal in Israel itself and is not applied to Israeli settlements in the Occupied Territories.
... Znet
Israel: Don’t Destroy Homes
Collective Punishment Violates International Law
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/08/israb19576. ... LTA
(Jerusalem, August 10, 2008) – The Israeli government should reject plans to resume the demolition or confiscation of the homes of alleged terrorists, Human Rights Watch said today. These measures would violate international legal prohibitions against collective punishment, as they affect the owners or inhabitants of the homes who have no involvement in terrorism.- bernk1, on 09/08/2008, -0/+2RightHand -I'm not blaming anyone else for the house demolition business. I am pointing out what some background is. Seriously, that was what happened.
You write. "Now the Ottoman Empire and the British Mandatory forces are responsible for the illegal policy of house demolitions!!!" - I never said they were. "When will they be reintroducing public hanging, and decapitation?" Israel never had any of that, but that won't matter -- you'll be bringing up stonings that were punishment during biblical times.
You write, "Maybe it's unwise to say this as they will introduce these measures and blame me." Hey, now that's a good idea. It's all your fault RightHand. - RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -1/+1Well, TG, you have not lost your sense of humour even on a sticky wicket. It really must be very tough, attempting to defend the indefensible.
Your ploy of the mildly interested observer, prodding and poking the Zionist agenda, is reasonably effect except when you lose it and the whole façade is exposed. Your often repeated claims of your not being an official spokesperson for the Zionist has been little over done and only makes me suspicious that you are exactly that. How did Willie the Shakespeare put? "Me thinks he doth protest too much." Was that it? You are far more clever and multiplicative than your fellow travellers to be just another one of them. Most of them don't appear to have the life experience of a snotty nosed kid. Maybe it is from the constant repetition of the Zionist mantras that have addled their brains?
Don't worry. Your secret is safe with me. I'll continue being your mutual friend as you asked. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer still." Try harder to keep your minions in line. Tell them that it's OK to disclose the Zionist nuclear arsenal, or they'll lose their tiny minds. Keep on smiling. - bernk1, on 09/09/2008, -0/+2RightHand - if you are referring to me as TG, that's not me.
- RightHand, on 09/09/2008, -1/+1No, my fair-weather friend. TG as any Christian would tell you is Thank God.
Did you fall out of love with me because I defended a friend against your unwarranted calling of him a bigot? I'd do the same for you if you were not a bigot.
Or was it just above when I disclosed your false façade of the disinterested spokesperson for the Zionist?
Or when you discovered my handicap of dyslexia and decided to exploit my handicap by high lightening my errors that are part of my condition? It takes a really nasty nasty friend to draw attention to my handicap. I'm not ashamed of it. I don't myself refer to it as I see more of a victimhood thing, that you will be familiar with.
I know you are hurting when you are reduced from your very high perch to name calling. I don't name call individuals here. When you fire off the standard Zionist blunderbuss charge of anti-Semitism then I know that you really are hurting. Really badly.
It's not my fault. Now I know we hear this continuously from the Zionists. I now automatically translate that as "It IS your fault." How the mind works? Wonderful. This happened with me when Bush spoke too.
I'll tell you why it is not my fault. None of my strong remarks were directed at you personally. I write them to all and not just to you. Collateral damage, is it? But I don't blame the victim. It's not your fault that you are reading my words. When you have seen how I write about the scumbag Zionists, some would say that you must either be a masochism to keep going back for more or or or something else, maybe. However, I'm no sadist. Like the offer that I made previously about you to your stop killing Arab women and children in the slow genocide, I'd much prefer to be doing something much different than endeavouring to save their innocent lives. Then I could revert to my calm, peaceful self.
Previously you didn't mind my sleeveen tag that so much better fits now. Do you still not mind. I'm wary of causing you unintended offence at this time when you are so far off tilt. Way off.
Have you being counting my errors? I do try extra hard to get it right for all. - bernk1, on 09/09/2008, -0/+2Hello Right (may I call you Right)?
Thanks for enlightening me as to "TG as any Christian would tell you is Thank God." TY (As I would tell you: Thank you.) I thought that you were confusing me with someone else.
I'm sorry about that bigot stuff. Which friend of yours did I call a bigot. If you are thinking of the fellow whose nom de plume begins with 9, I said his bigotry was coming through. I never fell out of love with you -- never was in love with you to be honest.
"Or was it just above when I disclosed your false façade of the disinterested spokesperson for the Zionist?" I don't know what you mean? I'm not their spokesperson? I am just an individual Zionist.
"Or when you discovered my handicap of dyslexia" -- I never knew you were dyslexic. How would I know that?
"decided to exploit my handicap by high lightening my errors that are part of my condition?" Again, I never suspected that you were dyslexic and did not mean to make light of your condition. I know several people with dyslexia and they are quite nice people (despite being non-Zionists). Did you know that General George Patton was dyslexic? He was the only general in the allied forces that the Nazis feared (and they said so themselves). Sorry again.
"It takes a really nasty nasty friend to draw attention to my handicap. I'm not ashamed of it." I truly didn't know about this.
"I don't myself refer to it as I see more of a victimhood thing, that you will be familiar with." I don't understand.
"I know you are hurting when you are reduced from your very high perch to name calling." I am not hurting, Right. Trust me, I'm not.
"I don't name call individuals here." Bollix to that. You called me a sleeveen, remember? (And if you suffer from memory loss too, forgive me)
"When you fire off the standard Zionist blunderbuss charge of anti-Semitism then I know that you really are hurting. Really badly." -- no I am not hurting. Really.
"It's not my fault." -- When did I say that? As we say around the old campfire, "Liar, liar. Pants on fire."
"Now I know we hear this continuously from the Zionists. I now automatically translate that as "It IS your fault." How the mind works? Wonderful. This happened with me when Bush spoke too." Huh?
"I'll tell you why it is not my fault. None of my strong remarks were directed at you personally. I write them to all and not just to you. Collateral damage, is it? But I don't blame the victim. It's not your fault that you are reading my words." What?
"When you have seen how I write about the scumbag Zionists, some would say that you must either be a masochism to keep going back for more or or or something else, maybe. However, I'm no sadist. Like the offer that I made previously about you to your stop killing Arab women and children in the slow genocide, I'd much prefer to be doing something much different than endeavouring to save their innocent lives. Then I could revert to my calm, peaceful self." Are you a loon? Note that I am asking, not saying. If the streimel fits, wear it.
"Previously you didn't mind my sleeveen tag that so much better fits now. Do you still not mind. I'm wary of causing you unintended offence at this time when you are so far off tilt. Way off." -- Don't mind it at all. Don't mean a thing.
Have you being counting my errors? I do try extra hard to get it right for all. -- No I haven't been counting your errors.
By the way, you went on somewhere about fighting for equality of men and women -- I think it was in your comment about bills of divorces -- gets. You can drop that bag of gob me hearty. I checked out your clipmark page, which you directed me to if you remember. What's the deal with the "SEXY. If only ..." collection you have there? You naughty RightHand you. Doesn't seem very feminist-minded to me! I particularly like the one in the black leather skirt with the pulsating behind. Anyone we know from Digg? And the one with the horns on her head? Oooh la la and a hot cha cha cha! Is that the Rivkele you wrote about elsewhere? Whiskey wow wow!
Chaim Berkochinsky... (You may call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner) - RightHand, on 09/09/2008, -1/+1Good response, for now. Ye, I'm Right. Ha ha
- bernk1, on 09/09/2008, -0/+3Right - glad that you liked my response to you. Again, sorry for the perceived slight about dyslexia. I'd love to chat more, but I've got to get going. You'll never guess where I'm off to. (I need to receive some new marching orders, or should I say dancing orders.)
In the future, to avoid the misunderstanding that you're right, may I call you Robert?
Yours for a better tomorrow,
Hersch Lieb - bernk1, on 09/09/2008, -0/+2Robert - talk about fact being stranger than fiction! When I said that "I need to receive some new marching orders, or should I say dancing orders" I was referring to your question about whether "they" were still dancing in Manhattan. (Funny thought - can you imagine 50 Zionists line-dancing with their payot and tzitzit streaming in the wind? I'd like to see that!) I hadn't even heard about the dancer being asked to prove that he was what he said at BG airport. (I'd be interested in seeing how long they made him dance, or what other depredations they pulled on him. I'm sure I can trust you to post updates.)
I hope they don't make me dance if I ever get to the Zionist entity!
Gotta run. Up, up and away!
Yours for a world of peace, love and eternal cosmic wisdom,
Shalom.
Hersch Lieb (and you may call me Hersch) - RightHand, on 09/10/2008, -1/+1Good on ye, Hersch, my old mutual friend. Robert is fine.
My son says that you would not be familiar with the expression "a fair-weather friend". He'd not know of it. Young people! He did say, as did I, that you would understand it in the context of Irish weather.
Dancing was a favourite activity for me, but not because I was black with a Muslim sounding name. How could they believe that this is acceptable only that they are used to getting away with it without censor.
Dyslexia did have one benefit. It pushed me away from all languages toward accountancy which I was good at and loved. It's only now with spellcheckers that I have re-engaged with english. Still slow and one fingered.
We are not going to change each other so we should agree to differ. I might penetrate the odd minion's closed mind while they are voting me down. If I could get them to articulate their thoughts, may be I could make some breakthrough. Sow doubt and beat the dumb mantras. I can but try.
May you acquire wisdom too and best of all now, at our ages,
Sláinte,
Robert.
- bernk1, on 09/08/2008, -0/+2RightHand -I'm not blaming anyone else for the house demolition business. I am pointing out what some background is. Seriously, that was what happened.
- RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -3/+2JEWISH NEWS
UNIFIL commander: Israel at fault
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/109949.ht ... TFA
Maj. Gen. Claudio Graziano, the Italian who heads the international force policing the ceasefire in the south, said Thursday in an appearance at the United Nations in New York that contrary to Israeli reports, he has not encountered arms smuggling south of the Litani River.
He said he could not comment on arms smuggling across Lebanon's borders because his force was mandated to stop such smuggling only at the request of the Lebanese government, and that has not happened.
He said Israel was violating U.N. Security Council 1701, which ended the war Hezbollah launched in the summer of 2006, with overflights of the area and by not handing over maps of mines. Graziano said by contrast that his relationship with Hezbollah was "excellent."
... Jewish News.
The corrupt Russian-Mafia Zionist state has NO respect and trust of the World except the US. - RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -2/+2 16/08/2008
Israeli envoy meets UNIFIL chief over praise for Hezbollah, censure for Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1012134.html
By Shlomo Shamire, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service
Tags: Resolution 1701, UN, Lebanon
TFA
Graziano also referred to the village of Ghajar, which sits on the Israel-Lebanon border, as "a permanent area under occupation."
The Italian general, meanwhile, said that Hezbollah recognizes Resolution 1701, and that the militant Lebanese group and UNIFIL forces enjoy excellent cooperation with one another. He added that apart from UN and Lebanese soldiers and local hunters, no one is armed south of the Litani River.
When asked about the smuggling of weapons into Lebanon, Graziano said he could not ensure that the area under his jurisdiction would be impenetrable, though he said there is no evidence of arms smuggling nor has there been movement of armed gunmen.
Graziano would not comment on the newly sworn-in Lebanese cabinet whose guidelines state that Hezbollah has the right to "liberate occupied lands," but he did say it was important for Lebanon to carry out its obligations as well.
... Ha'aretz
- foopirata, on 09/06/2008, -5/+10interesting that you only have demands from the Israeli side.
- urik88, on 09/06/2008, -3/+7A one state solution is simply unreal. There is too much hate towards Israelis from the Palestinian side, and the hate on the Israeli side grew a lot during the last years.
I mean, how can you hope for a one state solution when kids watch this thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJDNXztFmS0&feature ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeii225G-HM&feature ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0U2ce-LmA4&feature ...
It's simply unreal. The amount of violence would grow even higher on both sides between the civilians, and we'd be stuck with a civil war.
A two states solution is the only realistic one - monsieurginger, on 09/06/2008, -5/+9No Israeli prime minister past, current, or future will ever accept a one state solution. Ehud Barak just told them this on Aljazeera recently.
They just cry out one state solution to stall negotiations.- writie, on 09/07/2008, -3/+10Who is stalling negotiations? Who stands to benefit from stalled negotiations? Palestine is a province of Israel in everything but name. It controls its borders, taxes, most of its policing, decides which political parties can reign, where roads and indeed houses can be built, controls the economy through exports, etc etc.
I'm not sure Israel wanted all this, but it has taken it nonetheless. But instead of supporting the social services, it lets the UN and EU pick up the tab. And let's not talk of the vote.
I don't think the one state sol'n is the best sol'n. But until something more realistic comes along I can understand people's frustration about the current limbo. Some people just want to get on with their lives. It has been 40 years, after all.- monsieurginger, on 09/07/2008, -4/+5"Who stands to benefit from stalled negotiations?"
The Palestinian leadership. Do you ever wonder why Araft's widow doesn't live in the West Bank? Ever wonder why she lives like a billilonaire in Paris, mon cheri? - writie, on 09/07/2008, -1/+7Monsieur, who has been building in the West Bank and continuing to annex land for the wall during the stall?
In fact, who refused point blank to talk to the elected reps, Hamas? I know there are reasons for them not wanting to share coffee and biscuits with Hamas, but it's not Hamas that has held up talks.
Having said that, I'll be happy when the Arafat stuff finally hits the fan. I still think he was pushed from the inside rather than falling in his last days. Also, I wish I could say that Israel was the example to follow in terms of clean politicians. Alas... - bernk1, on 09/07/2008, -3/+2"Annexation" is not something that is happening now. Perhaps "expansion" and "settlement" but not "annexation." But those are different things. I believe that annexation of eastern Jerusalem immediately upon "liberation"/"seizure" (take your pick) after the '67 war. The part of the Palestinian land mass west of the Jordan River that was part of The Kingdom of Transjordan, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights were, I believe, annexed under the Prime Ministry of Menachem Begin. There is no "annexation" taking place now. Terminology may seem trivial, but it is not. Hence, it is important to know if one recognizes an independent "Israel" in the 'pre-'67 borders, or if one recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state within the same borders. "Jewish state" does not denote exclusivity, it denotes that Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. And since people here on Digg talk of deporting American citizens solely for membership in AIPAC (The American Israel Public Affairs Committee), those deportees will need somewhere to be deported to.
- bernk1, on 09/07/2008, -3/+2writie - you wrote, "I wish I could say that Israel was the example to follow in terms of clean politicians. Alas..." Can you name a state/society in the Middle East that you can say is an example to follow.
The supposedly incorruptibility of Hamas is hardly exemplary. They take seriously the commandment "Do not steal," but they ignore "Do not murder." - writie, on 09/07/2008, -1/+6bernk1: "Can you name a state/society in the Middle East that you can say is an example to follow."
Indeed, they are a sorry bunch. Lebanon and Palestine in chaos, Egypt and Jordan very autocratic. Israel an odd mixture of incredible vitality, mild chaos and military paranoia.
I take your point about terminology. OK then, not annexation. But the settlement and expansion are upheld by overwhelming military power, combined with ongoing measures to cause the locals to leave. A euphemism escapes me. But you probably get my point.
Personally, I wouldn't like to have to deal with Hamas at all. The idea (being hopeful) is that they can move from a paramilitary footing to a political. It has happened before, although it seems a distant prospect right now.
- monsieurginger, on 09/07/2008, -4/+5"Who stands to benefit from stalled negotiations?"
- writie, on 09/07/2008, -3/+10Who is stalling negotiations? Who stands to benefit from stalled negotiations? Palestine is a province of Israel in everything but name. It controls its borders, taxes, most of its policing, decides which political parties can reign, where roads and indeed houses can be built, controls the economy through exports, etc etc.
- Kizilbash, on 09/08/2008, -2/+6If they dislike the one-state solution so much, why are they trying so hard to make the two-state solution impossible?
- RightHand, on 09/08/2008, -2/+6@Urik88 "There is too much hate towards Israelis from the Palestinian side, and the hate on the Israeli side grew a lot during the last years. I mean, how can you hope for a one state solution when kids watch this thing?"
Ye, you would think that after 60 years of being murdered that the Arabs would learn by now that the Zionists should not be hated!!!
Now we Irish hated for 600 years and only stopped and made friends when our oppressor left, well nearly. Which bit do the Zionist wish to hold on to? - brightlight4, on 09/08/2008, -0/+7Obviously none of you have read the Israeli Palestinian website where Pals and Israelis get along fine together, once BOTH sides begin to respect one another, both socially AND religiously there is no reason at all why there could not be a one state agreement and I think that is DEFINATELY the best option of all, as side by side as separate states they will never trust one another on borders, etc. and will always be fearing attacks.
- brashley46, on 09/08/2008, -0/+5This is precisely why I support Dialogue Review, www.dialogue-review.com , who have been engaging in a one-state discussion for the last few years.
- EatingPie, on 09/08/2008, -1/+1I have read a *lot* of commentary saying that the Palestinians would never be satisfied with a two-state solution. That they won't be satisfied until Israel itself is destroyed. *IF* that is their goal, this makes me a little nervous. A single state, shared by both -- meaning Palestinians could take over the government and military -- would facilitate the destruction of Isreal -- again, *IF* that is their goal.
-Pie - RightHand, on 09/09/2008, -0/+3Looking for alternatives to failure: An answer to Uri Avnery
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6836.shtml Ilan Pappe
TFA
The following is Ilan Pappe's response to Uri Avnery's essay "Bed of Sodom," published by Hagada Hasmalit on 22 April 2007:
Uri Avnery accuses the supporters of the one-state solution of forcefully imposing the facts onto the "Bed of Sodom". He seems to regard these people at best as daydreamers who do not understand the political reality around them and are stuck in a perpetual state of wishful thinking. We are all veteran comrades in the Israeli Left and therefore it is quite possible that in our moments of despair we fall into the trap of hallucinating and even fantasizing while ignoring the unpleasant reality around us.
And therefore the metaphor of the Bed of Sodom may even be fitting for lashing out at those who are inspired by the South African model in their search for a solution in Palestine. But in this case it is a small cot of Sodom compared to the king-size bed onto which Gush Shalom and other similar members of the Zionist Left insist on squeezing their two-state solution. - m2garand, on 09/09/2008, -1/+3The entire concept of Israel was one of the worst ideas in history but I don't see how you unring that bell.
- EarthmanOnline, on 09/09/2008, -0/+2I agree with m2garand that "The entire concept of Israel was one of the worst ideas in history but I don't see how you unring that bell."
I think the unringing will take a very long time and will result in a one-state secular Palestine where all inhabitants are equal and all exiles have a right of return. Jews will ultimately be a minority in Palestine.
Also, the abolition of Israeli nuclear weapons. (Remember how Apartheid South Africa dismantled it's Israeli-partnered nuclear weapons when they realized the Black South Africans would soon take over the Government?) The Zionists will dismantle their nukes right before a Palestinian majority Government forms. - bernk1, on 09/10/2008, -0/+2Robert (RightHand) - Shalom, shalom, shalom.
You and I are not mutual friends. You are a fan or mine and I haven't befriended you. (What is this, the third or the fourth time?) Sorry, but I am playing hard to get.
"My son says that you would not be familiar with the expression "a fair-weather friend". " - Your son is wrong. I do understand it to mean someone whose friendship blows back and forth, like the wind. Are you familiar with the film Serpico. There is a line in that film that I call you your attention. Something along the lines of -- you're like a 16-year-old quiff. You will. You won't. You will. You won't. If I am mistaken, please right my wrong.
I rather like Irish weather. Irish whiskey, too. By the way, are you a Bushmill's man or a McBarren's man?
You wrote, "Dancing was a favourite activity for me, but not because I was black with a Muslim sounding name. How could they believe that this is acceptable only that they are used to getting away with it without censor." Are you referring to Senator Obama? Actually, Barak is a Hebrew name, too. It means "blessed." Sen. Obama said it was an African name. Go figure.
"We are not going to change each other so we should agree to differ." I agree.
Actually, I vote you up a lot more than I vote you down. "Sow doubt and beat the dumb mantras. I can but try." Well, keep on keepin' on.
I don't know what "Sláinte" means, but I am sure it is nice. Please explain.
By the way, do you ever enjoy a game of golf?
Take care.
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