What is Digg?98 Comments
- DanAtkinson, on 11/08/2007, -5/+47Yeah, the Dutch are cool!
On top of legalising gay marriage, assisted suicide and cannabis, they give LOTS of money to charities.
It annoys me that my country, the UK is 12th. Especially when we put so much effort behind the 'make poverty history' campaign, and debt relief in Africa. - caliform, on 11/08/2007, -3/+40Er, I live in the Netherlands, and we actually have one of the best quality of surgeons and hospitals in our country. Do your homework before posting, sonicdevo.
- sophiaperennis, on 11/08/2007, -4/+37If it aint Dutch, it aint much.
- JeroenR, on 11/08/2007, -8/+34Yes, taxes are higher in The Netherlands. I'm happy to pay them. Because of these taxes there is universal healthcare, and anyone who wants to can get good education (without $50,000 in student loans), oh and we get to do something good for the world as well. I would also add that despite being "taxed out the", we also rank very high in private donations.
- canada1, on 11/08/2007, -8/+29@sonicdevo
"I'm sorry, but I stand by my assertion that the second you give _any_ government power over something, it's a downhill slide from effective -> screwed up -> worthless, and complete burden on taxpayers."
That's because you have a corrupt government in the US. In the Netherlands the politicians and the system work for the people of the country, not for the benefit of the rich. - reed311, on 11/08/2007, -6/+26Have you ever paid taxes before? I'm pretty sure no country allows you to keep 100% of what you earn.
- ryanjulian, on 11/08/2007, -10/+30Except for the fact that the vast majority of the population isn't educated about the thousands dying in Africa every day of extreme poverty. Personal donations create numerous road blocks and just generally complicate things. Centralizing the money collection is a much more efficient manner of collecting the resources Africa needs.
As for getting "taxed out the ass", IF the United States actually payed the aid it has promised to UN the Millennium Development Goals, .7% of GDP, it would cost ever American about $23.33 a year. In a country with a per capita income of $42,000 per year, I hardly think 20 bucks is too much to ask. - vuzman, on 11/08/2007, -7/+26@sonicdevo: The healthcare system in the US is, contrary to your beliefs, not the best in the world. If you're wealthy, then maybe that is the case, but for the average joe, that's not the case. And if you're poor in the US, you're basically screwed.
- carpespasm, on 11/08/2007, -6/+22yeah, as a college student who recently was struck by a vehicle and broke a leg, universal health care and not having to pay for an education (which is just about required to get a good job) is something that sounds pretty nice. too bad the US is too far in the hole with war debt to be able to do such things as take care of it's own people.....
- sonicdevo, on 11/08/2007, -10/+25Sorry, but giving through the government is one of the most inefficient methods of distributing charitable monies.
- dagonweb, on 11/08/2007, -3/+16I can be lengthy and I can be brief and I shall be brief.
Y E S and being dutch I am PROUD. - dagonweb, on 11/08/2007, -8/+17I am dutch and my country spends the lion's share on helping the poor of the world while other countries slack around and do nothing. Why, are they lazy?
- cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"We pay too much for ridiculously small housing"
Yeah, like in every capitol or big city. Duh!
"the subway is the filthiest I've ever seen"
So I guess it's the only subway you have ever seen. Because the one in Amsterdam is pretty clean compared to most other cities.
"way too many poor immigrants infesting the place"
Tells a lot about you!
"health insurance prices went sky high this year"
Hmm, I pay 120Euro per month for the best package, dental insurance and everything.
"and it smells like urine everywhere."
Change your underwear!
If you don't like it in the Netherlands why not just leave? We won't miss you! - cyberdork, on 11/08/2007, -0/+9I am not Dutch, but I am glad that I work and pay my taxes in the Netherlands.
- RickySan65, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13They (we) might do a lot for the poor, but the govt forgets about their own people. Look at the statistics, more and more Dutch people are leaving holland for better places, that on it's own should be a pretty good indicator right there. Cost of living has gone up, services have gone down. Even the much 'praised' universal healthcare.
- DiggCommando, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13Giving money to poor countries can do more harm than good, as it is very often diverted towards corrupt hands or military pursuits. The real help should come in the form of trade reforms that don't allow big business to exploit workers and government in these countries for financial gain.
- devoinregress, on 11/08/2007, -2/+10Do you enjoy having nice roads to drive on?
Is free education for everyone a good idea?
Isn't it nice to have some sense of safety?
well, if yes, pay your taxes. - inactive, on 11/08/2007, -6/+13"Centralizing the money collection is a much more efficient manner of collecting the resources Africa needs."
While I think that is an honorable cause, I feel I should mention this little analogy:
In Netherlands, the government is like Robin Hood. They steal from the rich and give to the poor. The problem is that the rich are the citizens of the Netherlands, and the poor are the people in Africa.
Don't you think that this is SLIGHTLY immoral? I realize the response is that, well, you make enough money anyway, so you really don't mind contributing. But what about the people who do NOT want to contribute? Should they be punished and robbed even if they disagree with this Robin Hood policy? That's a rhetoric question, because they ARE punished and they ARE forced to participate.
Another EXTREMELY important point to make is that it has been proven is study after study that simply dumping large sums of money on Africa is a worthless endeavor. The only things that actually help money-wise are building hospitals and improving their health-care. However, a lot more of the money is dumped on African governments simply to help improve their economy, and this does not work. What you guys are essentially forced to pay for are the increasingly large mansions of corrupt government officials who essentially hold their citizens hostage, refuse all manner of economic reforms, and assassinate their political rivals.
I hope you sleep well at night knowing that, after Robin Hood leaves your house after forcing you to give him your money, a large portion of that money gets misused in abhorrent ways.
Me? When I get wealthy enough that I can afford to help out, I will do my OWN research into a charity of MY choosing, with a specific goal that I personally want to contribute to (not some gigantic and ineffective money dump). I will give them some of my money and then, unlike you, I will do follow-up research into this specific charity. If they mis-used my funds or prove to be ineffective, I will stop giving money to them (something you can't do) and find a BETTER charity to contribute to. - geronimo, on 11/08/2007, -2/+8Speaking as someone who lived in the Netherlands. Taxes are high, but health care is free while college education is cheap. To compare apples to apples, compare how much you pay for education(got student loan payments?) as well as health care costs(your employer picks many of these up but it's still a cost which reduced your salary).
The Dutch health care system is top notch. I had to use their services and they were fantastic.
I can see why someone would want to live in Holland for a long time.. The only reason why I didn't plant myself there is simply because I wasn't born there and my family doesn't reside there, I wasn't too daring so as to pull a Siddhartha and leave everything. - dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10That is ironically the worst ***** ever.
China and Japan slapped extra tariffs on companies doing business in the netherlands because the netherlands was classified as a tax paradise. Yes the netherlands is now classified as having unreasonably low taxes by C H I N A and J A P A N. - suomi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Good to see the Nordics have those top spots well occupied. We seem to come in at the top for all these sorts of things - support to those abroad, support of those at home, low corruption, high press freedom, technologically aware... Northern Europe is a good place to be.
- silenceHR, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8"way too many poor immigrants infesting the place"
they are people, not bugs. i think this tells more about you, then about Netherlands.
i have couple of friends living there and i never heard such stupidity coming from their mouth. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5But what has all this donating actually done for Africa? There is still an epidemic of AIDS, everyone lives in huts, and there is not civilization to speak of.
The realist POV: some people can't be helped. - dasch, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Giving money to Hizbollah, Hamas and Al-Quai'da isn't considered "donating to the poor".
- geronimo, on 11/08/2007, -1/+5"And if your _state-run_ healthcare is good.... then you're the exception to the rule."
Guess who in the USA provides the most error-free prescription drug service? The evil government. That's right, the VA - veterans affairs. They have the highest level of patient satisfaction simply because they've figured out the secret to health care, and if you don't know by now, you need to search more.
I think there's a role for government in health care. Private practice doesn't care about prevention since you probably won't be with them when you're old. Health care is long term so the government has the _ability_ to provide superior health care compare to private practice. For the above and beyond health care, like targeting severely handicapped people or even cancer, private health care can provide good 'avant-garde' services. - Killroy1971, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4What annoys me is that most of this "aid" ends up in the hands of the powerful elite in these third world nations not those who need it. Then what does get to the hands of the truly poor raises their standard of living just enough that they loose the desire to change their way of life themselves. It sounds weird or short sighted at first, but if you remember the "Live Aid" concert in the 80s and the follow-up movie of the distribution of food in Ethiopia, you'll remember that many of the tribal natives were fighting over weapons yet seemed disinterested in the food being distributed. How can this be? My vote is that the natives don't need or want a Western style of living. Since they only know subsistence living the supplies we give them is enough for how they wish to live.
- dasch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5*****, we Danes got pushed into second place! Well, the Dutch deserve it, they got better beer...
- vuzman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes, the nordic countries are also consistently on top when it comes to quality-of-life surveys and similar, which means that the people are actually happier living there and paying the large taxes.
I have never understood why the nordic countries didn't just become one country; It would be one of the economically strongest countries in the world. Think of the influence and power they would wield in the world. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Have you ever paid taxes before? I'm pretty sure no country allows you to keep 100% of what you earn."
Look up the Libertarian party.
If we have our way, this country will. - UsernameTaken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3>"way too many poor immigrants infesting the place"
>Tells a lot about you!
Sure, it tells that I don't live in a bubble of political correctness. I guess you prefer to have them here doing the ***** jobs that Dutch people turn down and living in ghettos. That shows a lot of respect for them, I guess. Come on, at least let's agree on the fact that Dutch immigration policy is flawed, and it doesn't make this city a better place to live.
Anyway, it wasn't my intention to hurt anyone's national pride, which is a kind of stupid thing to have in the first place. In fact, there's a lot of good things about the Netherlands too, I was just trying to show the ugly side of everyday life in Amsterdam.
My point is that the authorities should put more effort on improving what I think are deteriorating conditions here before thinking about charity work. As in "charity begins at home", get it?
"If you don't like it in the Netherlands why not just leave? We won't miss you!"
Don't worry, I'm leaving soon. And I won't miss you either. The limitless supply of legal pot and Belgian beer, on the other hand, I'll surely miss.
Proost!
PS: @geronimo, I guess I was talking about the metro or whatever they call it here. You should try to ride on it and see for yourself. Trams are good, though. - xeeton, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Title should read: Netherlands 'is more socialist' than most
- nocountries, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Ha ha ha! I just came on here to see if this was going to be the same as when someone said something nice about Norway. And it is! Loads of Americans in full disgusted mode going completely "off-topic". How on earth did we get onto Doctors in Canada! Ha ha ha!!!
- schlurp, on 11/08/2007, -4/+7@sonicdevo:
"Yes, but what is your universal healthcare worth... especially in comparison to the type of healthcare that we enjoy here in the US?"
You must be joking. Coming to the I couldn't believe how unbelievably crappy healthcare is in the US. From the retarded system that let's you not go to any place but only the ones that have deals with your specific insurer, the healthcare costs which are extremely high for extremely low benefits and the general quality of the facilities and personnel which both looked decidedly 3rd world quality (ok maybe 2nd) to me. - kozkos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@geronimo: Amsterdam & Rotterdam have subways
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Do you enjoy having nice roads to drive on?
Is free education for everyone a good idea?
Isn't it nice to have some sense of safety?"
Private roads. - Want to drive? Get a membership.
Private education. - Don't want to pay? Go to a 'sponsored' school.
Private security companies. - The only way to get rid of corrupt cops, is to make them have to answer to share holders. - sonicdevo, on 11/08/2007, -10/+12If you'll notice, I didn't make any claims about healthcare in the Netherlands, I just asked a question. And if your _state-run_ healthcare is good.... then you're the exception to the rule.
You may claim that US healthcare isn't the best in the world, but why is it that I see so many wealthy foreigners at the hospital where I work? And don't try and claim that US healthcare is only good for the rich... granted, insurance, etc is fouled-up here as it is everywhere... but I've never seen someone who is truly in need (no matter how poor) turned away from our ER. Even the poor who need organ transplants are taken care of (which is some of the most-expensive treatment out there).
If you think that the United States is the only country with corruption in its government, you're fooling yourself. All government is self-serving (its human nature), it's just that the US is the most visible at this moment in history due to our lone-superpower status. - stenk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Theo Van Gogh
I remember you! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Murdats, if you really "love" your government as much as it seems you do, then you deserve to live in bondage.
- themacx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Holland gave MILLIONS to the US for KATRINA/New Orleans..... need I say more?
- vuzman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Heineken is better than Carlsberg? I'm no fan of mainstream beer-water, but Heineken?
- vuzman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@jasqwerty: I understand why you say that, but imagine for a moment that not everyone on the internet is an idiot. After all, you're here, and you're so smart...
I know how to use wikipedia as well, and by the way, that link you gave is not the best link to explain potlatchism.
Now, if you're so smart and think the original poster was right, please explain what he means. What is the "small populations" he is talking about? Most of Europe? What are the "extreme environments" in this case? Again, Europe? How is the Netherlands giving aid to Africa "kin altruism"? Do you know what "kin" means? What are the "kin" in this case? Dutch and Ethiopians? How does any of this apply to this story?
I may be wrong, but I do understand the words he is saying, and I don't see how they apply to this story. And again, I'm not sure the poster does either. - themacx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well I happen to be Dutch and also happened too see the Red Nose action on UK TV, 23 million pounds was it? I thought that was in the end the biggest joke.... that dude from Little Britain swem the ***** canal for that.... tsss, Richard Branson shame on you for not sharing your pocket money ;-p
- lebaige, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This whole comment thread is disgusting. It's amazing how often the same people that say the United States should stay out of everyone elses business gets in the United States business.
This study just goes to show what a joke government charitable contributions have become. At this point it's all about politics and who can be "the most goodest". - fauxXenophanes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Then there is no liberal utopia...DANG!!!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4devoinregress, what a perfect example of a straw man argument! I salute you! Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. Genius!!!
- themacx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1byDijk: Ga eerst eens Engels leren vriend, het mijne is niet best maar dat van jouw slaat verdomme alles!
- argoff, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8In all fairness - the original American colonists were so poor, that most of the population died of starvation. For over a century, without help from anyone else, Americans struggled in desperate poverty. The US got wealthy, not because of handouts from someone else, but because of independence, self reliance, and liberty. In fact, handouts are a way of saying that poor people are too wretched to take care of themselves, it lowers peoples dignity. Contrary to myth, most poverty is not a resource problem, but a liberty problem - like when Chinese land policy in the 50's punished productive farmers and caused a food shortage that led to the death of millions. Anyone can be generous with someone elses money, how much a country taxes and redistributes says nothing about how much it does for the poor. If the Netherland's people are so generous, and this is so good for the poor, then how come they need to be coerced into using a government middle-man? Answer, they don't, it is a sham, someone is taking a cut in the middle.
- andrew1193, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Is the article talking about private individual donations, or handouts from Big Brother?
Since it's the BBC, and some NGO calling itself the "Center for Global Development", I'll assume the latter, and bury this article as lame. - SonnyW, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Maybe that's *because* they aren't spending billions of dollars at war in the Middle East?
- mhockey14221, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Haha... MacLiberal. How characteristic.
In fact, doctors flee those countries because they can't get paid enough due to socialized medicine and high taxes. Just ask my father, a cardiothoracic surgeon who went to college in Montreal, and his anethesiologist, a Canadian who commutes from Canada every day, being a doctor in a socialized medicine country sucks.
Rampant medical malpractice in America, however, is a problem... -
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