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73 Comments
- Calico182, on 06/10/2008, -0/+7Mandela's rule ended in 1999 - Thabo Mbeki has been in charge since.
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -0/+4There is no doubt that South Africa is in many ways a basket case -- but there is also no doubt that in many ways tis is *because* of Apartheid and its legacy, let alone hundreds of years of Colonial occupation that intentionally set out to destroy communities and families. That sort of damage can take generations to fix.
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -4/+8Was the French Resistance against the Nazis "terrorism?" Were the Contras in Nicaragua -- y'know, those guys the USA and Republicans supported -- terrorists?
I bet all you crying "terrorist" are not concerned about these former cases -- only Nelson Mandela. Oh yeah, I get it: he's black. Did Nelson Mandela advocate targeting civilians, or was he planning attacks against military targets?
Keep in mind that the Apartheid regime was, essentially, already waging a violent war against people living within its borders -- namely, non-white people. Were they not a foreign, occupying regime? (Think about Nazi Germany, if they maintained a presence in all those countries they managed to occupy: would it matter if it were generations?)
Also, the Apartheid regime was potentially (if not already) a genocidal regime. They engaged in human experimentation -- just like the Nazis. They eventually possessed several nuclear weapons. They planned for an eventual "final showdown" with the Black majority population by planning the use of exterminatory violence.
Were the ANC actually "guerrillas?" "freedom fighters?" -- in the best tradition of the many armed struggles that the USA, itself, has supported over the years? - pintomp3, on 06/10/2008, -0/+3that's because they won political freedom, not economic freedom. they inherited the debt of their oppressors and most of the industry is still owned by their former oppressors.
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -0/+3And, even if Mbeki hadn't been in charge all that time:
It's *their country* to screw up! What, you don't believe in *democracy* ?
I bet if our country could be run by benevolent dictators -- guns and other weapons could be outlawed, and many lives could be saved. Why all manner of things, in general, could be so much more well-ordered! - boobsbr, on 06/10/2008, -3/+6***** ethnical discrimination. Don't know if Mandela was a terrorist or not, but I sure am glad ***** Apartheid is over.
- artfiend77, on 06/10/2008, -0/+3No matter how hard I tried bud, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Cheers - glue, on 06/10/2008, -4/+6I wonder what we'd be saying about Mandela if his rebellion was successful? He goes to jail for 25 years, apartheid in South Africa ends, and Mandela is released from prison a hero. If the ANC was successful in ending apartheid in the early 60s, we might be mentioning Mandela along with Mugabe and every other revolutionary leader who attained power through violence only to ultimately destroy their country.
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -0/+2What would you say to a Jew in any of many Nazi-occupied occupied countries of Europe, who committed violent acts against the Nazi regime? ...Against military targets? Against civilian infrastructure that supported the Nazi regime? Against Nazi collaborators?
I smell a double-standard, here. - underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -1/+3So, when the United States uses "sabotage and violence" in Iraq -- or numerous other countries over the years -- is that "terrorism?"
Does it make a difference whether this violence is applied from the air by a foreign power -- vs: by someone on the ground, in their own country, resisting an already violent regime? - underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -0/+2Few people deny that the ANC was engaged in armed struggle against Apartheid. Here is the contemporary view of the man himself, as described in wikipedia: " "Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed. Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission."
So, without armed struggle, how else could the end of Apartheid have been achieved? (yes, there *already* was a peaceful, non-violent struggle -- and the South African government responded with violence, brutality, and murder.) - underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -1/+3You sound like you have an awful lot of respect for Apartheid.
Apartheid South Africa outright *murdered* scores of people. The Apartheid regime engaged in in-vivo human experimentation, like the Nazis did. They possessed nuclear weapons. - SeaweedWater, on 06/10/2008, -1/+3Good luck finding it.
- GhostRidr, on 06/10/2008, -0/+2Apartheid does not excuse Mandela's actions--ordering bombs planted that killed innocent civilians, women and children. Violent actions of which he has never apologized.
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -1/+3Please cite evidence for you claim:
* What acts of violence *targeting* civilians did the ANC engage in? (And, did Nelson Mandela sanction that violence?)
* What types, and how many acts of violence did the Apartheid regime apply against non-ANC civilians? - eigenweasel, on 06/10/2008, -0/+2I had always thought that Mandela was imprisoned for involvement in the deaths of Zulu supporters of the Inkatha party (the 'necklacings') rather than his opposition to apartheid? His wife's 'Football Team' Winnie Mandela FC (seriously! see http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Africa/04/ ... were alleged to have taken part in attacks on Zulus well after Mandela was jailed.
And that video of Nelson Mandela singing "We will kill the Ama-bhulu (whites)" is going to haunt his legacy for ever however much he did for reconciliation. - inactive, on 06/10/2008, -4/+5 Too bad South Africa has basically fallen apart under his rule. You wouldn't know that by the media coverage, the silence is deafening. Things are so bad they may have to scrap the World Cup there.
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -1/+2Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson:
"If we are to wage a campaign against these Indians the end proposed should be their extermination, or their removal beyond the lakes of the Illinois River. The same world would scarcely do for them and us."
Thomas Jefferson is advocating genocide. (and did so numerous other times, in writing.) These facts don't seem to have impacted his legacy. - TheOther1, on 06/10/2008, -1/+2and nothing more
- underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -2/+3* What acts of violence *targeting* civilians did the ANC engage in? (And, did Nelson Mandela sanction that violence?)
* What types, and how many acts of violence did the Apartheid regime apply against non-ANC civilians?
I think you will find that Apartheid South Africa was itself a brutal, terrorist regime. (...and several orders of magnitude worse than anything that the ANC is alleged to have been.) - slingr, on 06/10/2008, -1/+2you people that are crying terrorist are retarded. its like calling bush a peacekeeper
- GhostRidr, on 06/10/2008, -0/+1Mandela, in his book, Long Walk to Freedom, justified the Church Street bombing, set off during rush hour, that killed many innocent civilians. What more proof could you need?
Saying the Apartheid government was more violent does not justify the other side's action of killing innocent civilians, women and children. - inactive, on 06/10/2008, -5/+6Ironically, Mandela's African National Congress were every bit as much a group of terrorists as Hamas. Yet we favor them with the word "politcal activists"
- scamper22, on 06/10/2008, -0/+1you'll get dug down by a bunch of people who've never lived in South Africa.
No one wants apartheid back, but ask around, even among the blacks, they will tell things were better under apartheid.
I compare it to Russian transformation into a democracy.
It didn't go well and loads of people think the communist system was better.
No, neither South Africa or Russia is going back to their old apartheid/communist ways, but democracy has not exactly worked well for them either. - azies, on 01/26/2009, -0/+1I line this info really
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http://audiogazmo.com - pintomp3, on 06/10/2008, -1/+2fighting apartheid and oppression is terrorism? no wonder south africa and israel have so much in common.
- toowired77, on 06/10/2008, -0/+1Have you even been to South Africa? Once again Hitler's bitches are back on digg. What are you guys tired of all the head banging music already?
- GhostRidr, on 06/10/2008, -1/+2It's not hard to find evidence of this. Here is just a few things I found pretty easily:
From : http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_1 ... :
"The ANC's terrorist arm, which Mandela headed in 1963 -- called Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK) or Spear of the Nation -- continued waging terrorist attacks with arson, political murder and robberies."
From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/201455.stm :
"A leaked document from the commission accuses the ANC of torture and other human rights violations, and of carrying out badly-planned bomb attacks causing unnecessary loss of life."
From: http://media.www.pittnews.com/media/storage/paper8 ...
"Mandela is on the terrorist watch list because Spear of the Nation [the organization that Mandela ran before his arrest in 1962] only accomplished the destruction of apartheid through a campaign of sabotage and bombings that cost a number of civilian lives." - control10, on 02/18/2009, -0/+1 Nelson Mandela and Fidel Castro are the same.
http://www.flowreviews.com - underdugg, on 06/10/2008, -0/+1Where is the evidence that Mandela "ordered" these acts? What acts?
How do these alleged acts compare the the *known* acts of violence committed by the Apartheid regime? (and by the *pre*-Apartheid colonial regime over the centuries prior to that?)
Apartheid South Africa was itself a brutal, terrorist regime -- several orders of magnitude worse than anything that the ANC is alleged to have been. - inactive, on 06/11/2008, -0/+1I have been there twice.
- DoTheFandango, on 06/10/2008, -0/+1Hey, the United States hasn't done much better for itself.
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