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Jesus in China

chicagotribune.com — By some estimates Christian churches, most of them underground, now have roughly 70 million members, as many as the officially atheist Communist Party. A growing number of those Christians are in fact party members.

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  • louiss19, on 06/23/2008, -15/+81I feel like it's only a matter of time before there HAS to be some big changes over there...
    • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -11/+72Good point - look what Christianity did to the Roman Empire despite Rome's efforts to kill it off.

      Then again, Rome won in the end - Christianity thrives under persecution, and tends to drift from it's founding principals once it becomes widely accepted.
      • tjsgigante, on 06/23/2008, -10/+14Say hello to the greatest apostasy that has ever happened.
        The original church, as established by Christ with the 12 apostles went to the wind after the apostles were killed and the revelation they received, that wrote the Bible, stopped.
        • honthraj, on 06/23/2008, -12/+7You were there, Mr. 2000 year old man?
        • tjsgigante, on 06/23/2008, -9/+4Have you read the Bible? Have you read what we are currently learning about what they believed back then? They don't match.
        • tjsgigante, on 06/23/2008, -8/+1Wouldn't it be nice if the Bible was still being written today, by people like Peter, James and John?
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -3/+2Are you a Jehovah's witness, Mormon, or Kip McKean follower/spinoff follower???
        • nstanosheck, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1TJ'sGigante, maybe you should investigate Orthodox Christianity rather than one of the 500,000 Protestant denominations only founded in the last 500 years or so!
        • wuxia, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1@nstanosheck

          Thank you for remembering the 'forgotten christians'.

          http://www.godtube.com/groups_home.php?urlkey=ashu ...
      • ostracize, on 06/23/2008, -7/+38"Then again, Rome won in the end - Christianity thrives under persecution, and tends to drift from it's founding principals once it becomes widely accepted."

        Say what?

        Christianity lasts for 2000 years with the same solid grounding. The Roman empire lasted only 400 with Christianity around. We name our kids Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and we name our dogs Caesar or Nero. You tell me who won in the end?
        • tjsgigante, on 06/23/2008, -4/+13The Christianity of today doesn't look like the Christianity that existed 2000 years ago.
        • SinisterBunni, on 06/23/2008, -13/+3your stupid ***** dogs
        • ostracize, on 06/23/2008, -4/+18@tsjgigante
          "The Christianity of today doesn't look like the Christianity that existed 2000 years ago."
          The gospel expressed by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul is the same today as it was expressed 2000 years ago.
        • tjsgigante, on 06/23/2008, -9/+6The Bible hasn't changed TOO much (passed down by hand, some changes have happened, intentional or otherwise), and the Gospel is eternal, of course. But when the churches foundation was removed (Christ, His Apostles, and the revelation they received, that WROTE the Bible originally), the original Church of Christ fell into disarray and confusion, resulting in the billions of different sects seen today.

          Starts as 1 church, 1 Savior, and now billions of different ones with different doctrines. The first church was the true church of Christ.
        • staticneuron, on 06/23/2008, -3/+4Your lost. His point was how christanity drifted from its founding principles. And the earlier variations were thanks to the roman empire's effort to suppress it. The later years finds changes to christianity (denominations) because of misinterpretations, political and philisophical change, and adaptation of the religion by mixing native cultures into its practice and understanding.

          Funny thing, I just met a hispanic dude in miami named caesar and his dog was named luke.
        • DevilInPgh, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2Pauline Christianity and Nazarene Christianity are two separate things. Nazarene Christianity died in the Bar Kochba revolt.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -2/+1My point was that after Christianizing Rome, the Christian Church began to degenerate, compromise, become corrupt, etc..

          By the way, when the Bible uses the word "church," it is sometimes in reference to the body of Christ, and sometimes in reference to individual groups of believers, and sometimes referring collectively to those individual groups as a whole. These are not the same thing, and they do not equate to the Kingdom either.
        • ZenMojo, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3"Your religion is dead, long live our Empire."

          "Your Empire is dead, long live our religion."
        • toowired77, on 06/24/2008, -1/+0God save China from Christians. They should retain their own culture and values. Christian missionaries came to Africa and lied to us about salvation. In their minds, God is a western Europeans who wants us to name our children Hamilton. How is Hamilton a Christian name? Where is it in the Bible? I am glad that they are trying to spread the message through their own mouths and not through missionaries/mercenaries.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1"They should retain their own culture and values."
          I say it is their culture, their values, and they can convert to whatever they want.
          Christians seem all to often to be Gods worst representatives.
      • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -0/+22"Rome won in the end"

        I doubt people in the Vatican see it that way...... Or Turkey(Constantinople).... You know, named after Constantine the Great. The guy who converted all of Rome to Christianity because of a pre-battle vision he had.

        Christianity does thrive under persecution however. Especially persecution by other "Christian" churches. (See: inquisition)

        Christianity seems to drift from it's principals when it splinters into other denominations. Some basic disagreement about interpretation of scripture. For example baptists fundies are IMO decidedly UN-christian, with all the intolerance etc.. However many modern churches still adhere pretty closely to traditional Christian beliefs, such as Tolerance, Brotherly love, humility, etc. The world is supposed to know Christians by their fruits(their actions and behavior), not by their political obnoxiousness, or stance on gay marriage. People like that make all Christians look bad. Since the tolerant Christians never make the news, they get lumped in with the loud mouth, intolerant, demanding Jerks.

        • 98percentcogdis, on 06/23/2008, -0/+7I'd have to agree with you about the baptist fundies, and I'd go one further by adding the full gospel,dispensational,fundamentalists(say that 3 times, really fast!) of which I was once a member. The whole pesky theory breeds pride, and you and I both know what pride goes before... Who would Jesus bomb??? He was a pacifist! Now, watch a video of John Hagee on you tube and tell me if there is fruit there?
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3Don't just tolerate the person, love the person. It is their activity which you must separate, and not allow it to prevent you from loving that person.
        • VoxRatio, on 06/23/2008, -0/+398, word. I wish there were more guys like you out there, calling those guys on the carpet..
        • known, on 06/24/2008, -3/+3And every religion is a covert mask for socio-economic collusion!
      • wex98x, on 06/23/2008, -0/+7You are right...Christianity does thrive the most amongst persecution. The areas in which Christianity is growing the fastest is in Asia (including the middle east), Africa and Latin America. A combination of poverty and persecution cause much of the boom in numbers as people are given hope of new life amongst the reality that their lives may end at any time. This happened in the early church, but when Christianity became the official church in Rome, the persecution ended and so did people's spiritual lives, as now people's lives did not depend upon God anymore, but on wealth and prosperity.

        The monastic movement starting with the Desert Fathers was a direct counter cultural response out of this peace and prosperity, to live an ascetic life freed from the luxuries of society and going back to the core of Christianity: their need for God.

        I know people are still persecuted in China for their faith, but from this article it seems like the tides are starting to turn. If this is the case, then the people of China will face a new challenge in the years to come: themselves.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -0/+1well said.
          The worst thing China could do to Christianity is to accept it and end the persecution.
        • wex98x, on 06/23/2008, -2/+0I don't think the persecution should continue, but I do think that if freedom of religion is ever accepted within China and especially with the economy doing as well as it is, there has got to be people ready to speak against the inevitable spiritual apathy, and search for meaning that will follow.
    • aliengoods, on 06/23/2008, -25/+7You're absolutely right, and let me be the first to suggest how they go about it.

      First, you really don't want to just line up Christians and shoot them. This boring manner of execution just reinforces the fact that the Chinese are dull and without a sense of humor. Instead, go old school.I recommend lions! It worked for the Romans. But you have to be careful that the lions don't lose their appetite after a couple of Christians. So you really want to starve them and just let them maim a little.....
      • tierneyb, on 06/23/2008, -5/+19You know, there have been some immature comments that were relatively funny before, but this is just uncalled for. Despite how cool you think it is to rip on believers, realize that 95% of the worlds population believes in God.
        • imacoder, on 06/23/2008, -11/+4They are wrong.
        • scubaman5000, on 06/23/2008, -9/+6Once upon a time 95% of the world's population believed that the earth was flat.

          Here's another little fun fact to consider, a large majority of people throughout the world who believe in God are uneducated. A majority of those that do not are educated.

          Interesting statistics to consider.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2"Here's another little fun fact to consider, a large majority of people throughout the world who believe in God are uneducated. A majority of those that do not are educated."
          A reflection of a countries secular education system.
          My evidence is that this fact is not true in most middle eastern countries where Islam is taught in schools.
        • 335io07, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1scubaman, so you're professing to be smarter than the believer because you don't believe in God? Also, you are saying that the majority of Chinese who believe are uneducated? Believe me when I say this, the average Chinese person is smarter than the average American. Therefore you, being an average American athiest, the average Chinese believer is probably smarter than you. As an American, I can also say, the Asians were smarter at our schools as well.
        • scubaman5000, on 06/24/2008, -2/+1335...07 where do you get that I'm singling out the Chinese? I know many Chinese people who are extremely intelligent, I used to work with several Chinese immigrants and they were very smart (they also happened to think religion was nonsense but that is coincidental). I'm talking about everyone all over the world. I'm talking about humanity as a whole. Religion thrives among the uneducated or the humble as christians like to call them.

          True there are very intelligent Christians and there are very unintelligent Atheists but as a general rule throughout the entire human population you'll find people much more willing to accept religion when they are uneducated and this can be found no matter where you live.
    • lattin1, on 06/23/2008, -0/+24Have you ever been to China? I'm gonna lean towards no because there isn't a country on this planet thats changing more rapidly. Its kind of hard to get a feel for an entire country from 15 second CNN clips or page long web articles so I can't fault you for that but it still doesn't make your comment true or even debatable for that matter.
      • ceraphin, on 06/23/2008, -8/+4I've been to china and it's one of the most ***** up places that's receiving a ton of tourist bucks, they might as well be famous for their tourist traps (40 bucks for an oz of the "kings green tea" that's more than pot and it's sold by the government to only tourists) my freaking tour guide told me theres no income tax and that the government gets all their money from tourists i wonder what would happen to her if they found out she spoke such "slander" oh and theres the people who mutilated their own bodies so they could beg for money that little girl with burns on her face and a missing arm still haunts me, the fact that i saw 5 other girls just like her makes me scared ***** and i've got other horror stories as well
        • tian2992, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3Breaking news, there are people in pain!!!

          It happens everywhere, go to any major city and i bet that there will be homeless people, ANY major city. The point is that a simple tourist experience cannot give you the reality of a country.
      • yayster, on 06/23/2008, -0/+7In Florida there is no income tax, and the state gets all its money from taxing tourists.
      • cathpah, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2ever been to india? now THATS a changing country. Because in India, the gov't is all for change. (unlike china)
      • bloosteak, on 06/28/2008, -0/+1really? india is changing relatively slowly because of a huge bureaucracy . maybe you don't read.
    • lolinyerface, on 06/23/2008, -2/+6And just remember, kids. If you were thinking of being reincarnated after death, its against the law!
    • gaoshan, on 06/23/2008, -16/+10Yep. They've got Jesus now. Should be invading other countries and spewing ignorant, self-righteous rhetoric any day now.

      • KDAY12, on 06/23/2008, -3/+7Hmm, yeah, and maybe the will sound a little bit like the bigotry in your own comment.
        • BlacklabelSAR, on 06/23/2008, -5/+6Is it bigotry when it's true?
        • KDAY12, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1No, the bigotry is the description of "invading other countries and spewing ignorant, self-righteous rhetoric" as a characteristic of Christianity. These characteristics aren't unique to Christians, nor should they be applied in a bigoted fashion to all the people of a group. That is intolerance at its finest.
      • BossKey, on 06/23/2008, -2/+3China never needed Jesus to start a self-righteous invasion.
        Exhibit A: Tibet
    • gerbco, on 06/23/2008, -3/+1Don't rule out the ability of the chinese communist part to evolve... they've done it pretty quickly and will do all they can to hold on to power.. heck it can become Christian Communist Party (NON ATHEIST) and they can then even evoke spiritual and economic leadership over the populace.
      • ncc1701, on 06/23/2008, -0/+1Or the Chinese Christian Communist Party. Long live the CCCP!
    • dcmjzero, on 06/23/2008, -0/+1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
  • Stugo1, on 06/23/2008, -50/+97"We [had been] taught not to learn from God, that God is a fake,"

    It's what is happening in the West now with our leaders thinking they are gods.

    I think we need their prayers as much as they need ours.
    • UberNick, on 06/23/2008, -53/+25Wow, yes, please... send your magic thought-waves...
      • TheFinaleofSeem, on 06/23/2008, -14/+32And please, by all means, be a prick.
        • Kidtuf, on 06/23/2008, -13/+6no really, do your fancy magic man calls and embrace the power of delusion.
        • SinisterBunni, on 06/23/2008, -9/+2and why dont you be a ***** retard...
        • TheFinaleofSeem, on 06/23/2008, -5/+19@Kidtuf

          I'm an agnostic, but thanks for playing, *****. I'm sick of assholes on both sides of the religious debate. That includes atheists who berate religious folks for no other reason than being religious.
        • Amiga500, on 06/23/2008, -6/+3Finale, you aren't agnostic, you are a piece of *****.
        • TheFinaleofSeem, on 06/24/2008, -2/+3Aw, thanks for the assessment, *****. I'm sure it will affect me greatly.

          And anyway, it's not like you can't be both.
      • iharbinger, on 06/23/2008, -9/+10lol, wow, you got dugg down, must be alot of fanatics on har.
      • sg7791, on 06/23/2008, -8/+9You know, I'm not religious at all. But that is downright insulting.
      • afard333, on 06/23/2008, -0/+1
        I agree
    • aliengoods, on 06/23/2008, -33/+16***** prayer. We need action.
      • masterm1nd, on 06/23/2008, -3/+18***** saying we need action. We need actual action.

        Do you see the irony?
        • takamalak, on 06/23/2008, -13/+3I see that you're retarded.
        • masterm1nd, on 06/23/2008, -2/+10Wow, looking at your comment history, you are quite the bigot. So it should come as no surprise you have the argument of a nine year old.
        • Amiga500, on 06/23/2008, -3/+2He may have the argument of a 9 year old, but you have the genitals.
    • Hetman, on 06/23/2008, -25/+20Prayer is useless and wastefull in times like these. We need action not theory.
      • masterm1nd, on 06/23/2008, -11/+25Riiiiighht, because prayer and action are mutually exclusive. Why does it bother you guys that people pray?
        • Rhettsta, on 06/23/2008, -16/+12Because prayer doesn't do anything there's no such thing as magic
        • masterm1nd, on 06/23/2008, -3/+9Actually, there is such a thing as magic, and it refers to what you don't comprehend how it's done. Since I'm too lazy to explain my personal opinion on prayer and the human brain, I'll point you to some studies. So even though I don't think it's pointless, people generally do a lot of pointless stuff. You're life must be very bothersome.

          http://www.youmeworks.com/sendablessing.html .
          http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm .
        • goforbroke, on 06/23/2008, -3/+8There was that time that Moses was camped at the Red Sea and as Pharaohs army approached, Then the LORD said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground.

          The prayers had already been said,began to be answered and the Israelites balked by wanting to pray again.

          There are times for prayer and time for action.
        • Rhettsta, on 06/23/2008, -5/+2masterm1nd its good that you tried to point to some evidence instead of just say you know its true but by that belief prayer has the same benefits as meditating not exactly talking to a divine being
        • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -2/+6Still, it's their time to waste, so what do you care, as long as they are in action by your side?

          To each his own? Not so much any more.
        • Rhettsta, on 06/23/2008, -3/+2gnostik i don't mind if your religious but you got to understand theres NO evidence for your beliefs so you have the freedom to say your way is right and i have the freedom to say its wrong
        • skav, on 06/23/2008, -3/+4There is no consensus on the efficacy of prayer. Compared to other medical findings, there are VERY few actual peer-reviewed, published studies, so to claim that the power of prayer is proven is hasty at best.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer

          The burden of proof for an extraordinary claim lies on those claiming it in the positive. If I claim that my special healing dance cures people, then the only thing that makes sense is to not believe me until I prove it. One or two small studies are not proof, and the most famous of positive studies turned out to be a fraud:

          http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/wirthindictment.ht ...

          For a review of prayer studies, see

          Richard Sloan, E. Bagiella, and T. Powell. 1999. “Religion, Spirituality, and Medicine,” The Lancet. Feb. 20, Vol. 353: 664–667; and,

          John T. Chibnall, Joseph M. Jeral, Michael Cerullo. 2001. “Experiments on Distant Intercessory Prayer.” Archives of Internal Medicine, Nov. 26, Vol. 161: 2529–2536. www.archinternmed.com

        • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -1/+5Rehttsta: Right...... but if prayer is a waste of time, and your saying it's wrong, and it isn't going to change my beliefs, then isn't that equally a waste of time?

          Besides, by my praying, i'm not going out of my way to try and attack someone's beliefs. So you can have that opinion. But expressing it to me is kind of dickish if there's no point except to try and get under my skin. I don't force my beliefs on anyone, I don't knock on doors, I don't pass out pamphlets, nothing. If you want to attack someone, attack the people who are doing those things. They are the ones begging you for a debate. Go get some Mormons, or Jehovah's witnesses, or Baptists fundies. Just leave the average Christian alone. It doesn't really make Atheists look all that tolerant. Just hypocritical.

          I have no problem with Atheism. I try to be a good example of Christianity, but all you anti-theists.... You are downright disrespectful for no other reason than to be disrespectful. There isn't even a belief behind it, that you can justify it with (as if it was justifiable with beliefs anyway). It's just a blatant attack on people who are different than you.

          So... what's the point? The net result is just more animosity in the world.... Like we need any more.
        • Rhettsta, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3gn0stik: you right i'm being a dick but what if Christianity is wrong and theres evidence to back it up, why would you continue to believe a fraud? i'm sorry if i'm disrespectful but i don't want you to be afraid of hell or believe that death is paradise
        • wexmajor, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3Because it doesn't do anything but gives the peace of mind that doing something provides. It is literally worse than doing nothing, because you're less likely to physically act to help someone if you already feel that you've done something by "praying for them".
        • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -0/+4Rhettsta: Thanks man! That was solid! Thing is, an absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Science will never be able to disprove god. Likewise it will never be able to prove his existence. Since this is the case some have tried to disprove the base of Christianity by saying it's falsified and based on other myths. I've seen all of these documentaries, and have done my own research and found them to be false. If you do some searching out there you'll find some of my arguments, but it's too long to post here. The bottom line is this. I'm not afraid of hell. And if I believe death is the gateway to paradise, so be it. I'm not anxiously rushing onward to death, or to be a martyr. I love my life, my kids, and besides that's not all that biblical. If it's all a delusion, then I won't be around to find out. My personal experiences tell me it's true.

          At any rate, thanks for the apology. First one I've seen on Digg ever, for that, you are ok in my book.
        • masterm1nd, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3Wexmajor. Then how do you explain why Christians give more in terms of time, money, and giving blood? Every single stat I've ever seen begs to differ.
        • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -0/+4Wexmajor: That's ridiculous. Christians are supposed to tithe. This can be giving money to the church OR to people who are in need. I've given to so many charities and food drives, it's not even funny. Plus I give to my church, who regularly organizes charitable events and missions.

          Less likely to do something? MY DAUGHTER has gone to impoverished areas of mexico and repaired people's homes and church.

          I myself plan on going to Haiti one day. So please, drop the bad logic. If you want to believe we're stupid, that's fine. I have no problem with that. But don't say we don't actually do anything.
        • Andrwmorph, on 06/23/2008, -3/+2What I dislike is the fundamentalists assholes that have to shove their religious fairy tails into my government and life. I also don't like watching children being taught from birth to believe what I think is a waste of life.
        • VoxRatio, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2Andrw: I agree about the fundies. But they are going to teach their kids, what they believe, just as you teach your what you believe.

          To each his own. But yeah, the fundies.... make us all look bad. We don't like them much either.

          gn0stik, nice posts man. Odd nickname for a christian though, doncha think?
        • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -0/+2Vox: I have a love of Irony, I guess. It just means I'm a bookworm, that I love knowlege (gnosis). Not a follower of Sophia.

          VoxRatio, what is that? Vox is voice, but ratio is what? Rational? Reason? That must be it. Voice of Reason. You have an interesting name yourself there...
      • xaogypsie, on 06/23/2008, -5/+21There is an old saying:

        "Pray as if everything depends on God and work as if everything depends on you."

        I think it is ascribed to Martin Luther, but I can't find where he might have written it. Either way, it's old.
        • mntbikeracer1, on 06/23/2008, -3/+5I've never heard this before, but I like it. According to many people on here prayer is worthless, etc... But prayer, being a good person, working hard toward a better good, etc. are all mutually exclusive traits.
        • esfisher, on 06/23/2008, -11/+7Or you can just work as if everything depends on you, forgoing the prayer. Same result.
        • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3"But prayer, being a good person, working hard toward a better good, etc. are all mutually exclusive traits."

          I'm not sure if this is a typo or not, as it doesn't seem to make sense in context. Mutually exclusive means that the existence of one, automatically means the other is excluded.

          If that is in fact what you meant, I don't see how being a person who prays automatically makes you lazy, or unwilling to work toward a goal, or a bad person.
        • tkstock, on 06/23/2008, -0/+5mntbikeracer1, I think you mean they're NOT mutually exclusive traits...
      • 98percentcogdis, on 06/23/2008, -0/+2Only if you have never had answers to prayer, but for those that have, prayer will be the most important thing that one can do.
      • afard333, on 06/23/2008, -0/+0wow ..... I think I would like prayers too pal...
    • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -18/+11Prayer: how to feel like you're helping without actually doing anything.

      P.S. Did some evangelical cult bus in a load of whackos for this thread? The Diggs and buries are the wrong way around.
      • Rhettsta, on 06/23/2008, -6/+4lol i know its happening alot lately
      • fuisgofg, on 06/23/2008, -4/+4This is my view of prayer (I am a Christian).

        Prayer to God is like an Atheist/Agnostic telling someone what he will do for the day, the week, the year, the lifetime, pouring his aspirations and dreams, trials and tribulations into this listener in order to come to more peace with himself, and to give further self-inspiration to push harder towards the dreams and pull stronger past the obstacles that entail this dream.

        For me, I pray so I can set attainable goals for myself, and I tell these goals to my God so I have more motivation to fulfill these goals. When something bad happens, I don't simply pray for it to stop and sit placidly in my couch, watching TV about the very issues I was just praying about. I try to help in anyway I can as well in order to not be a hypocrite. Even the smallest way can help, just bringing up the subject with friends to spread the word of disasters, to giving hard financial aid to those in need.

        Please don't generalize a main tenet of religion without realizing how much it may mean to another human being.
        • monoa, on 06/24/2008, -2/+3No, it's not. Me telling someone that I'm going to do something is in no way the same as you mumbling incantations to an invisible fairy in the sky that you believe is listening to you and that might answer.

          I don't actually care what prayer means to another 'human being'. It's delusional bronze age madness and deserves no respect. It has no place in a civilized and advanced society.

          Fortunately, for the rational members of society, religion is dying and it will eventually be as unimportant as astrology and palm reading. That day cannot come quickly enough.
        • fuisgofg, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2Uh, why is it in no way the same thing?
          Explain your crumbled thoughts better please.
        • scubaman5000, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3I think what he was getting at is that your analogy would make more sense if you said it was like an atheist/agnostic were writing down his goals and aspirations in a journal or just mumbling to himself. Because "someone" actually exists while "God" does not.

          If you're just talking to yourself then yeah it's the same as writing in a journal or an atheist telling himself what he wants to accomplish.

          An atheist will expect nothing to come of talking to one's self while you likely fully expect external support from God to achieve your goals.

          See the difference? Basically what it amounts to is the Atheist understands that he's on his own and if anything is going to get done he needs to do it...all of it...
    • afard333, on 06/23/2008, -4/+4Amen :)
    • Iztikeit, on 06/24/2008, -3/+0But actions are far more important than any chants you could even begin to think of. Being taught there is no God isn't a good thing, but I'm sure the Communist party won't last long.

      Remember, the west IS THE BEST when it comes to assimilation.
  • theDunedan, on 06/23/2008, -9/+49I am glad the Tribune and Frontline/World are doing this report. The quality seems to be excellent and the subject matter very timely.
    • cbbs, on 06/23/2008, -11/+4Nobody else is?
    • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -9/+2Excellent? It appears to be as fact-free as the Xian fairy story.
  • ColonelTribune, on 06/23/2008, -5/+19Here are some pretty cool audio slideshows that are related to the story:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-08 ...

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-08 ...
    • BrentDPayne, on 06/23/2008, -3/+8Hmmm. Those are pretty cool. Thanks!
  • Buckeye17, on 06/23/2008, -10/+278Weird, a pro-Christianity story on Digg's front page.
    • AboveandBeyond, on 06/23/2008, -46/+5yawn
    • ostracize, on 06/23/2008, -5/+137Whether you are pro-Christianity or not, you have to feel for the kind of ***** these Chinese Christians have to go through. These people sleep with their shoes on in case they have to run when the police show up in the middle of the night.

      We are all damn lucky to have our (non-)religious freedoms (Christian, Atheist, or otherwise).
      • ch4os1337, on 06/23/2008, -23/+4How can there be non-religious or religious freedoms? Seems kind of ironic to me.
        • lolinyerface, on 06/23/2008, -1/+18Your comment is full of stupid. Stop that, at once.
      • AlfKayda, on 06/23/2008, -16/+3[citation needed]
      • fuisgofg, on 06/23/2008, -4/+10I lived in China for a few years, roughing it in the mountains or staying in an urban environment with my dad. We tried to make an evangelism effort, but we were deported after an informant attended our house church. Police came in the night and we were not able to get many personal belongings from our house.

        They wont even let us back in the country to retrieve the items.
        • flashback99, on 06/23/2008, -11/+6This is awesome news. I'm glad you're not allowed in China.

        • wishninja, on 06/23/2008, -3/+8Wish there were some laws regarding "evangelism" here in the USA. I was surrounded at the public park the other day by a pack of Mormans. "Did you know there are prophets alive today?"you know guys I'm just trying to play with my boy out here on the playground "You can't spare a few minutes to save your soul? no thanks I'm an atheist and do not wish to be bothered now

          The ***** then proceeded to tell me that they are going to pray for my soul(in front of my 4 year old) and stood over at the edge at the park and prayed. If my boy wouldn't have been there I would have tossed my taco bell cup full of Dr. Pepper at them for their smug remark. If they come over to me at that park again I will have an episode of uncontrolled rage for sure.
        • Killerah, on 06/25/2008, -1/+2@wishninja
          Mormons absolutely LIVE to be "persecuted". If you say something mean to them they'll say you're persecuting them, they have no idea what real persecution is like. They think persecution is being made fun of, if you threw your Dr. Pepper on them the whole church would probably start a prayer chain to console those poor boys who were being persecuted. And why shouldn't we make fun of them? Their religion is self-contradictory because it tries to reconcile their book of Mormon and the Bible which are at absolute odds. Plus there is literally NO evidence to suggest that the lamanites and nephites or whatever weird indian tribes talked about in the book of mormon ever existed.

          On the other hand you've got the Bible where archeology continues to prove and validate what has been standing written down for thousands of years. Mormonism has no authenticity about it at ALL! Why should Mormonism not be mocked for what it is? A religion that has changed on it's core doctrinal beliefs every time culture changes, and has no archaeological or prophetic evidence whatsoever to back up any of the so-called historical accounts in the Book of Mormon! It's a farce!
      • AnOMNOMymous, on 06/24/2008, -4/+3Yeah, we have the freedom to live by the standards of the majority's religion.
    • jabberwolf, on 06/23/2008, -20/+35They are peacefully practicing underground.

      It could be worse, if it were that other religion, they'd be strapping their kids with dynamite by now.
      • ijwhelan, on 06/23/2008, -19/+17You do realize that Muslim suicide bombers are misinterpreting their religion? Their religion is against hurting others, and as a Catholic, I agree that they believe in the same God as Catholics do, and they share the same morals as Catholics, which means they don't really believe in suicide bombings, seriously, don't be a douchebag and learn about their religion before you deem them all as suicide bombers.
        • MisterEX, on 06/23/2008, -5/+11Well as a Catholic, I think you need to realize what your OWN religion entails first.
        • Shawn4168, on 06/23/2008, -5/+13You do realize that they're actually emulating Muhammed, who went on similar rampages of genocide and terrorism back in his time?
        • AnOMNOMymous, on 06/24/2008, -1/+3Read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris.

          People that kill in the name of the Muslim holy book are FOLLOWING IT PROPERLY.

          People that DON'T kill are watering it down.
        • Iztikeit, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2I've read one of the best translations of the Quran and it's quite scary. Some parts are far scarier than all those nasty parts in the Old Testament and some parts in the New Testament.
        • staticneuron, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

          The Truth. Why does that seem to evade so many. After battles in which some where captured and released and other battles were ended by a truce, the few that had a death or convert mentality seems no different from when God deemed Canaan suitable for conquest by the Israelites in Deutoronomy. Also in the bible there were the kill and convert option but there is one step that even the muslims didn't do and that was enslave.

          Instead of being so ignorant I really wish people would sit down and read both without bias and you would be shocked at how similar those books are.
        • Waterrat, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1 Yup,their religion is against hurting others,provided those others have this chromosome configuration: XY and are not gay...
      • saisumimen, on 06/23/2008, -13/+5Or they'd be sending people by the millions to the desert to fight to their deaths in long pointless "crusades"... oh wait. People have forgotten about that.
        • Professr, on 06/23/2008, -1/+5That was more of a political problem. During that time, the "church" was the leading political body, and it was very corrupt. I'm not saying that some of those problems don't exist today, but it's definitely nowhere near as bad as it was back then.
      • xNarrowSoulx, on 06/23/2008, -4/+13ijwhelan is right. Learn about a religion before you bash it as being wholly violent and evil, all of these religions stem from the Abrahamic God.
        • neurobox, on 06/23/2008, -8/+8True enough... mysteriously they are missing the one huge important thing that gives Christiantity any appeal at all, JESUS. He's real, powerful and knownable but don't take my word for it, stop and ask Him yourself.
          "But what does it say? 'The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:8-10
          It's really not complicated. Give Him a chance to show you.
        • AnOMNOMymous, on 06/24/2008, -2/+2How will he show me? When I get a raise?

          Dumb ***** christians.
        • Iztikeit, on 06/24/2008, -0/+0I look at it like this, anyone has the right to decide who they want to believe and respect. Jesus just has this huge cult following, maybe he deserves it and maybe he doesn't, I'm not the one to decide that.

          If I were to come out with some awesome self help book and got a cult following I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it because they have that right. Now it might be awkward.....
      • saunders45, on 06/23/2008, -5/+4Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God ... God's curse be on them."

        Sura 9:29-31
        • neurobox, on 06/23/2008, -5/+7Nice. How about nearly 300 prophecies in thousands of years of widely distributed Old Testament writings pointing to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, right down to how many peices of silver He'd be betrayed for, and the manner of death of his betrayor? But that could "just happen." God's grace be on you.
        • saunders45, on 06/23/2008, -2/+7What does that have to do with what I posted? My post was in response to those claiming Islam is peaceful. A direct quote from the Koran.
        • neurobox, on 06/23/2008, -2/+3Thanks to this lovely comment system, I missed that. Regardless, I addressed the content of your post and whoever may believe it, drawing a contrast to Christianity, for those who are interested. IMHO, it can't hurt to clarify your own position when you aim to quote someone else's.
        • staticneuron, on 06/24/2008, -2/+1When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
          However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

          Deuteronomy 20:10-17

          We can do this all day. If I am not mistaken Christians are also the religion of peace but then again there are many quotes in the bible that are warlike and downright horrible. Yet supposedly the select verses don't make up a whole. You seem like an agenda pusher.
        • ramiro, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3You forgot to mention that these people - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites - had infant sacrifices.

          These quotes are warlike for a good reason... unless you are OK with killing children for false gods.
      • staticneuron, on 06/23/2008, -7/+9Christian Identity - Transnational
        Identity doctrine - Transnational
        Army of God - United States
        Aryan Nations - United States
        Christian Patriots - United States
        Ku Klux Klan - United States
        Lambs of Christ - United States
        National Liberation Front of Tripura - India
        Nagaland Rebels - India
        Guardians of the Cedars - Lebanon
        Lebanese Forces - Lebanon
        Russian National Unity - Russia
        Russian National Socialists - Russia
        Tsar Lazar Guard - Former Yugoslavia
        White Eagles - Former Yugoslavia
        God's Army - Burma
        Sons of Freedom - Canada
        The Lord's Resistance Army -Uganda

        * (not even listing the 11+ terrorist groups in ireland)

        It's not even a question. There are christian terrorists and their peversion of their belief is just as extreme and very similar sounding to the perversion of islam text that the radicals use to push their agenda.

        Either they ignore them or the say they don't exist. When presented with names of groups and recent actions the next step is for christians to call out that these groups aren't christian. Why? Because they are using the text wrong? Their actions dont match the text? That's an ok excuse to disavow these radicals but when a muslim says it then they are not to be believed?

        It's the ignorant ones that seem the scariest.
        • fuisgofg, on 06/23/2008, -1/+7While it is true that these organizations might be based on a premise of Christianity, the truth is that these terrorist organizations simply use Christian faith as a way to dupe gullible Christian lemmings into their wings, using an extremely skewed and distorted view of Christianity. Most religious-based terrorist groups are based on such a principle of distorting the beliefs of many to serve personal desires, including Muslims, while we are at it.
        • AnOMNOMymous, on 06/24/2008, -2/+5Muslim terrorism is not based on a "perversion" of their beliefs, it's based on the fundamental beliefs of Islam. Non-violent Muslims are not following the Quran 100%. Don't believe me? Read the Quran. But I'll probably still get buried by people that haven't read the hundreds of violent passages in the Quran.
        • staticneuron, on 06/24/2008, -3/+1I guess you haven't read the hundreds of violent passages in the bible either? Paint with broad strokes. It's easy.
    • Taiyoryu, on 06/23/2008, -11/+12Being persecuted for your beliefs because they differ from those in power is wrong. Whether it's Chinese Communists persecuting Chinese Christians or American Christians persecuting American non-Christians or <insert majority group> persecuting <insert minority group>.
      • mattbatt77, on 06/23/2008, -0/+4I'd hardly dare to compare American Christian church's "persecution" against non-religious groups as similar to the brutal Chinese persecution to the underground church. Being arrested, tortured, beaten vs. a group saying Gay Marriage is wrong. hmmm.

        http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html ...
        • Dauntless1, on 06/23/2008, -4/+0Guess you don't watch the news. That "group" advocates in many pamphlets in my town the beating and/or torture of anyone who isn't of their particular religious group, including other Christians.
      • ramiro, on 06/24/2008, -2/+3You can stop with your BS right there.

        There are NO American Christians persecuting American non-Christians.
      • Dauntless1, on 07/30/2008, -0/+0@ ramiro
        *****.
    • lebatte, on 06/23/2008, -5/+14We Americans just love the idea of people from any background or faith sticking it to communists. Too bad Digg wasn't around when the Cold War ended. Most of the users on this site don't realize it.
      • aekdbbop, on 06/23/2008, -10/+8then why the f are we trying to get a socialist into the presidency?
        • regeya, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2Socialism and Communism are not entirely the same...and we haven't seen a truly Socialist government yet. I doubt we ever will, because no matter how fair it seems, people actually trend toward being told what to do, and no matter how fair the system is, there will always be people who get the shaft, no matter how "free" and "fair" a system purports to be, because we humans are greedy, selfish, and inherently evil.
        • aekdbbop, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2sure there are differences, but that's like saying a democracy and a republic arnt the same.. they are and they arnt.. same idea, same difference.
        • lebatte, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1Just because you want some aspects of society socialized for funding doesn't mean you're a socialist. There are some things that free enterprise shouldn't be applied to, like information for example. Imagine if only rich people got to decide which theory of physics was correct.

          There are some people who feel the same way about other issues, like healthcare. Some people wouldn't mind paying a little extra periodically in order to ensure that they and their neighbors have full coverage in the case of an injury. People opposed to that either naively think that accidents can't happen to them, or they're so rich that they can cover for themselves and don't give a crap about their countrymen.
      • bloosteak, on 06/28/2008, -0/+1Americans LOVE saying communist.
    • shondell, on 06/23/2008, -1/+18"Weird" is an understatement. It's like a pro-Democrat story on Fox.
    • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -13/+6Yeah, but what does it prove? That every population has a percentage of gullible, credulous people who need a fairy story to help them through their lives.

      It's just another example of the religious preying on uneducated people, ultimately to extract money from them and fill their heads with bronze age stupidity.

      P.S. As for it being weird - just look at the comments so far - looks like the god gang mosied up a posse from GodTube to come over and vote this up.
      • farfromok, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2troll ftw
        • asylumua, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2Dude, you obviously didn't read the article. It said that most of the church members are intellectuals with degrees.
      • oblique63, on 06/23/2008, -3/+2He wasn't trolling... China has a large poverty problem, and with poverty usually comes poor education, and monoa is making the point that the lesser educated people are, the more susceptible to religion they are, so his comment does have a point... we as americans usually get all offended in hearing this because we just assume that we have the 'greatest' of everything, including education, all while being one of the most religious modernized countries at the same time as well. It is easy to see the conflict there (supposedly 'well educated' + religious = "You're Wrong! you religious bigot, etc etc"), however, we do not (at large) posses the level of education we think we have (unfortunately), and so the point still stands... just look at countries in europe who do have (on average) better test scores, schools and educational systems than us, the populations there tend to be drastically less religious...

        coincidence? no, it is simply the outcome of being (successfully) taught how to think critically, and unfortunately, most of the schools in the US educational system fail to achieve this, hence our large religious population...
    • stealthc, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1Not just pro-Christianity, but anti-Communism!
  • Spuy767, on 06/23/2008, -64/+21Guess the chinese aren't as smart as we thought.
    • bigmauler, on 06/23/2008, -5/+13obviously their leaders are much smarter and you'd see eye to eye with them. Why don't you move over there.
      • Spuy767, on 06/23/2008, -11/+5Humor is lost on some.
      • Spuy767, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1WTF does that poor example of a sentence even mean? Their leaders don't like christian churches because they view it as something of the West. They don't want any western ideals creeping into their regime, *****, these people might want to vote next. The humanity!
    • tim620, on 06/23/2008, -4/+13Not all Christians are idiots. People who have faith in Christ (or other deities) are not necessarily less intelligent. Your comment only shows your arrogance towards people who believe in a God (or gods).
      • Spuy767, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1Not less intelligent, simply unable to come to terms with the finality of their own mortality. Christians may or may not be stupid, but the certainly don't have a sense of humor.
        • tim620, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1You are making a sweeping generalization. I know many Christians who are hilarious and have a great sense of humor. It is just that your joke comes off as offensive, so it isn't very funny to Christians. It is like telling a racist joke to a group of African Americans and expecting them to laugh.

          Of course Christians don't "come to terms with the finality of their own mortality". Because they don't believe they are mortal. It is the crux of their faith to believe they will live forever in heaven. If they didn't believe this, they wouldn't be Christians.
  • IphtashuFitz, on 06/23/2008, -13/+26I wonder how long until the Chinese Communist Party will outlaw Christianity just as it's done with Falun Gong?
    • Rippleeffect, on 06/23/2008, -1/+28It techinically is outlawed unless you're part of the "officially sanctioned" version. Little brother smuggles Bibles over there during the summer. The Chinese government has Bible's available, but its heavily censored.
      • gweedo767, on 06/23/2008, -1/+3"Little brother smuggles..."
        You do realize that China is considered a creative access missions field and if you brother is actively involved in ministry there, you shouldn't exactly be saying that right?
        • Rippleeffect, on 06/23/2008, -0/+5Its not like any of it is a really big secret. This kinda of stuff is promoted heavily in US churches and is pretty well known to the Chinese gov't.
          Brother's been stopped several times before, interrogated, but then released shortly after to just come back later in the day at a different entrance. If you're an American, they really can't lay a hand on you. If you're Chinese, you're rarely heard from again.
        • wonderbriefs, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1I'm fairly certain (and correct me if I'm wrong), that by "Little Brother" he meant the opposition to Big Brother.
      • dtfinch, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3I wonder which parts they've censored/edited.
      • Hangly, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1There are uncensored Bibles. Plenty of them.
    • rz8472, on 06/23/2008, -0/+4The Chinese Government cracked down on Falun Gong after they decided to have a 10,000 person protest in front of the capitol (I think it was over corruption issues), but before that the government was generally supportive of the organization. It remains to be seen if any Christian group decides to do something similar, and how the government will respond.

      The "official" churches all pledge loyalty to the State over God actually, so I don't see it happening from them.
    • Hangly, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1If you want to work at Levono you have to sign an affidavit saying you're not a member of the Falun Gong.
      • stealthc, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2Wow. My ThinkPad seems so dirty now.
  • etx313, on 06/23/2008, -19/+3Really? They are already doing it right. Why would they want to do it wrong?
  • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -22/+52This is why Christianity is currently the worlds fastest growing religion - China is not alone in it's increase in Christians.
    • BoneheadFarker, on 06/23/2008, -9/+40Every freakin' religion claims to be the fastest growing. That doesn't make it true though...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fast ...
    • kevinmotel, on 06/23/2008, -6/+37i thought christianity was the biggest, islam was the fastest growing
      • Vic333, on 06/23/2008, -14/+11The last report I saw, the fast growing religion was "no religion", or atheism.
        • tierneyb, on 06/23/2008, -6/+11Hmm, please provide a source. I highly doubt this to be true.
        • esfisher, on 06/23/2008, -2/+8"Hmm, please provide a source. I highly doubt this to be true."

          See? Even you are lacking faith! ;)
        • ohheythar, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3athiesm is not a religion. it is a lack of religion. a religion requires practices and traditions of some sort. in athiesm there are none therefor can't.
        • Professr, on 06/23/2008, -2/+6@ohheythar

          "Religion" in this case means "a system of beliefs". Call it a Schema if you will - a way of looking at the world and finding optimal behaviors for the future. You may disagree with Christianity or other established "religions", but you must admit that atheism is a system of beliefs. Belief that there *isn't* a god, belief that we are nothing more than products of evolution (which, if we are merely animals, absolves us wholly of any need for ethics or morality - it becomes all about us), belief that science can explain everything (which I agree with, incidentally), are all tenets of Atheism.

          I see people argue all the time "it's not a system of beliefs, it's the ABSENCE of belief." There is no such thing as the absence of belief. There is absence of opinion, but there is not absence of belief. You either believe one way or the other on any given issue, especially any issue you feel strongly about. I'm pretty sure people posting about how stupid Christianity is feel strongly about their views. They believe wholeheartedly that there is no god, and that belief *is a religion in itself*.
        • Lukesed, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3Professr,

          If you consider any system of beliefs a "religion", then I suppose Republicanism and Open source are religions as well. Or we could use a reasonable definition and require religion to include belief in the supernatural.

          You show your bias with your off-topic remark about religion and morality. I believe that human moral systems arise from an evolutionarily developed mental process that results in the greater good for the species that possesses it. Another kind of humanity wouldn't last long if its members went about killing and robbing one another instead of working to survive in the long term. I find it disturbing that you apparently only live by a moral code due to a fear of divine punishment.

          Incidentally, the only "tenet" of Atheism is that there is no god. An Atheist could believe that we all suddenly appeared ten minutes ago in an incredibly unlikely random quantum event, as long as no higher power was involved
        • Lukesed, on 06/23/2008, -2/+1@tierneybtierneyb
          In the United States, the "non-religious" category (including responses of "atheist", "agnostic", "secular", and "humanist") grew from about 14,000,000 people in 1990 to nearly 30,000,000 in 2001. This is considerably more than any other group.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -2/+5The supreme court says Athiesm is a religion, and you don't have to do much stretching to make dictionary.com say the same:
          http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
          http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTI ...
          http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm
      • ohheythar, on 06/23/2008, -2/+1this is the true statement.
      • mydigg1012, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2Yes. Each religion is taking its own route to grow. Christianity by converting and Islam by procreating.
      • NanoStuff, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1Atheism is the fastest growing religion, everyone knows that.
    • sparql, on 06/23/2008, -7/+7considering your name, I would have expected more from you. It's arguable at best that Christianity is the fastest growing religion.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fast ...
    • bpoteat, on 06/23/2008, -8/+3http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fast ...
      • atmenterprises, on 06/23/2008, -1/+1http://news.scotsman.com/education/Falling-exam--p ...
        • bpoteat, on 06/23/2008, -1/+3You realize that wikipedia article has cited sources right? It's a lot easier to link to the wikipedia article than every one of those sources and the numerous others you get when you do a simple google search.

          It is obvious to anyone with any semblance of a brain that the statement "fastest growing religion" is arguable to many different religions and the statement is idiotic.
    • masterm1nd, on 06/23/2008, -5/+9Are you sure about that stat?
      • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -0/+1Yes, look at my other posts in this thread.
    • Unknown038, on 06/23/2008, -8/+5i am fairly certain that christianity is not the fastest growing religion. i have read that it is currently the largest, but that islam is the fastest growing.
    • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -6/+2It's always the same groups who make evidence-free claims, with the Christian cult at the 'top' of the pile. Christianity has been in free-fall for decades in all industrialized countries, with the exception of the USA - and even there it is in decline.
      http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_inde ...

      Religion relies on fooling uneducated poor people in to believing the fairy story they sell. Always has done. That's all that's happening in China - assuming that the figures provided are true, which I doubt as there are no sources provided. This is just an article to pander to god bot USA readers. Next!
      • atmenterprises, on 06/23/2008, -4/+1I'd hardly call it a cult. Jim Jones and Heaven's Gate, sure.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/23/2008, -4/+5Jesus Rose from the dead. The historical evidence is overwhelmingly in support of this position, but you will have to do the research yourself to be convinced like I was.

          That said, I do have to post the following on Atheism:
          In a nutshell the 1st law of thermodynamics states that energy/matter can never be created or destroyed. This scientific law is the most fundamental law in all of science, the entire concept of cause and effect rests on it. No exceptions have ever been observed.
          Since the natural laws of the universe do not allow for the stuff the big bang was made of to come into exist without supernatural intervention, there are only 2 possibilities:
          1. The universe has always existed
          2. Supernatural being(s) or force(s) created matter/energy, and time itself.
          If the universe has existed forever, it would have had to literally wait forever in order for this present day to arrive. Since forever is not over yet, it cannot possibly be today. This is how we know that all matter/energy in the universe, and time itself, has a point in the past in which it came in to being.
          The Cosmological Argument has withstood well over 2 thousand years of intellectual attack, and still has not a scratch.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument
          I encourage you to think about this.
        • Lukesed, on 06/23/2008, -5/+4How does religion resolve the cosmological argument? Simply because you think the big bang doesn't make sense, it is reasonable to believe in something that makes even less sense? Even if there was a convincing argument for a higher power kicking off the universe, how does the bible and all of inanity it contains follow?
        • monoa, on 06/24/2008, -3/+4You are encouraging me to think?! Jesus ***** Christ - the irony!

          OK, I gave that drivel of yours some thought - it amounts to "I don't understand some stuff therefore my god did it". Not a compelling argument for the reality-based community.

          Here's one for you to chew on:

          Consider that the god you believe in is almost entirely dependent on when and where you were born. Your belief is not a matter of truth, simply an accident of time, geography and parentage.

          If you were born in India today you might be worshipping Ganesha, in Iran you'd be head-butting a piece of carpet 5 times a day for Allah. If you were born 2000 years ago in Denmark, you'd think Odin was the real deal and 500BCE in Greece, you'd be worshipping Zeus. That's just a handful of the thousands of gods people have invented over the millennia.

          It's not really a convincing scenario if there was one true god, or any gods. Wouldn't it be trivial for the creator of the universe to have all his little creations singing from the same book? Especially when most gods threaten eternal torment for choosing the wrong one. What sort of omnipotent, omniscient, 'merciful and loving' god would that be?!

          This should be an enormous clue to everyone that gods are man-made.
        • TruthExposed, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2Lukesed - "How does religion resolve the cosmological argument?"
          The cosmological argument shows that supernaturalism is necessary. It does not promote any particular religion, or religion in general.
          "Simply because you think the big bang doesn't make sense,"
          The Cosmological argument has nothing to do with the Big Bang, it has to do with where the stuff the big bang came from, and how long it had to wait until the big bang happened.
          "Even if there was a convincing argument for a higher power kicking off the universe, how does the bible and all of inanity it contains follow?" It doesn't. It only shows that pure Atheism is wrong.

          monoa - "OK, I gave that drivel of yours some thought - it amounts to "I don't understand some stuff therefore my god did it". Not a compelling argument for the reality-based community."
          Plato and Aristotle both promoted the cosmological argument well over 2000 years ago. It has withstood brutal intellectual attack from then to the present, and the only change is that the 1st law of thermodynamics now supports it.
          If you reject the cosmological argument, you must show how it is possible, not how it happened, but only that it is somehow possible for matter and energy to self create (which defies the 1st law of thermodynamics - the most pivotal law in science. The concept of cause and effect itself rests on the 1st law of thermodynamics). If you are able to do this, you have shown that just about every scientific discovery in history is probably wrong.

          Your other option is that the universe has been in existence forever. If this is the case, how long did time itself have to wait for today to arrive? Answer, Time would have had to have waited forever. Since forever is not over yet, it is not logically possible for it to be today. Therefore, time itself has a beginning, and requires an initiating event. Good luck finding a natural explanation for this.

          Your statements about where I was born influencing my religious beliefs are irrelevant, as statistics do not apply to individuals.
      • Iztikeit, on 06/24/2008, -0/+0Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism nor a few others require you to believe any fairy tale story. Myths are merely the only means to describe certain aspects of spirituality.
    • whiteguysamurai, on 06/23/2008, -7/+3This is why we must stop it!
    • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -3/+4Here's some more on the 'fastest growing religion':

      "Church attendance in Britain is declining so fast that the "Church of England, Catholicism and other denominations will become financially unviable."
      http://www.religioustolerance.org/uk_rel2.htm
      The same pattern is happening all over Europe.

      USA is following. Christianity has been in continuous decline for decades. The fastest growing 'belief' is atheism (or wishy washy agnosticism).
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Unite ...

      TruthExposed, you need to work out the difference between what you want to be true and what is actually true. They are not always the same.
      • TruthExposed, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2Read my other posts. Europe and the USA represent a small portion of the Earths population.
    • AnOMNOMymous, on 06/24/2008, -1/+3Why are people digging down posts that include facts in them??? Oh wait... yeah yeah it's Christians we're dealing with here...
    • toowired77, on 06/24/2008, -2/+0Christianity is by far NOT the fastest growing religion. There are too many types of Christianity. Are you talking about Mormons, SDA, Quaker or Baptist. I don't see anything uniform about these groups. China needs Chinese religions, not western religions.
      • TruthExposed, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Settled, but not that it matters all that much. Growth rates have nothing to do with factual correctness.

        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTI ...
        http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-grow ...
        From Table 1-2, you can see that presently every 24 hours, the world population of Christians increases by 69,000, whereas there are only 68,000 Muslims. The only reason Muslims are anywhere near Christians is because of higher birth rates in the parts of the world where Muslims are largest. The vast majority of the 69,000 Christians will be educated, whereas the majority of the 68,000 Muslims will be illiterate peasants without clean drinking water.
  • icantdenythis, on 06/23/2008, -7/+54its interests me how the two hemispheres are going in opposite directions. . .
    • ostracize, on 06/23/2008, -0/+9I remember reading an article about South Korean missionaries going to Europe.
    • xNarrowSoulx, on 06/23/2008, -10/+2While I hate to say it, it makes me happy. Maybe it will slow them down a bit, and we can start to be logical and possibly get out of debt, etc.
  • CoffeeandTV, on 06/23/2008, -40/+15This will only make things worse, but whatever.
    • mandarin, on 06/23/2008, -3/+6Coffee and Tv does the same things
    • tim620, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2I think this will unite many of them. What makes things worse is individualistic cultures like our own.
      • Tezkat, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2Wrong, christianity in China is divisive.
        • tim620, on 06/23/2008, -0/+1You are correct in that Christianity is divisive between Christians and non-Christians. That is why I said "many" and not "all". I meant that a religion like Christianity will unite a large community of people who had not been previously united under atheism / communism.
      • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -2/+1Yeah, we wouldn't to think for ourselves would we? Much better to part of a collective where someone makes the decisions for us.

        It's no wonder a group of Christians is called a 'flock'. Baaaaa.
  • munen123, on 06/23/2008, -36/+11Jesus is a nice guy and all, but does it really matter weather or not chinese believe in a western god?
    • roomforpanic, on 06/23/2008, -3/+20Maybe you should figure out what part of the world Christianity came from BEFORE posting?
    • nutniqs, on 06/23/2008, -2/+11Christianity is a "Western Religion" - Are you stupid or just a digg retard? Jesus was born in Bethleham, (now Palestine) Judah. you consider that West? And the first Christian followers were Romans and Armenian.

      Keep burying your head in the sand and follow the Athiest leaders on Digg.
      • tim620, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3Also, many believe that the apostle Thomas brought Christianity to parts of Southern India, which means Christianity was in India prior to most of Europe.
      • Hangly, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1Some historians consider the Middle East to be part of "The West."
      • ajoftswa, on 06/24/2008, -1/+0Because Jesus would want you to be an *****...
    • amfort, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2God created the west.

      :)
  • s0m31john, on 06/23/2008, -43/+28Just what we need, more Christians.
    • mandarin, on 06/23/2008, -6/+12What do you want, scientology?
    • ijwhelan, on 06/23/2008, -4/+5Wow, people who want to believe what they want don't really care what you say, you do realize that, right?
      • Dauntless1, on 06/23/2008, -0/+0And they dont have the time or intelligence to understand anything about their own religion, so why would they listen to you, s0m31john?
    • BOFH2, on 06/23/2008, -8/+3Amen brother!! S0m31john is right. We need more Christians to spread the Gospel of Christ
    • tim620, on 06/23/2008, -6/+4Actually, we do.
    • amfort, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2Umm, you good sir, are a bigot.
  • an10ae, on 06/23/2008, -29/+16Why not get back in touch with their own history, culture, and religions? Oh right, western influence.
    • Arcesius, on 06/23/2008, -7/+9Yeah, you forgotten Christians/Caucasians have a monopoly on truth.
    • tim3094, on 06/23/2008, -3/+14Yup, because Christianity really came from the west, it couldn't have come from an middle eastern country called Israel.
      • lebatte, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2And Jesus was a Jew. Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, was born in New York. Human life began in Africa. We're all African, then, right?
    • dbucky, on 06/23/2008, -2/+5Christianity isn't a western religion.
  • iJessicaRabbit, on 06/23/2008, -34/+19Wow so take away Buddhism which is such a loving religion and bring in Christianity which is just the most MESSED UP religion that could ever exist?! GO CHINA!!!!
    • TheFinaleofSeem, on 06/23/2008, -9/+22Your ignorance is nothing short of staggering, even for a Digger.
      • takamalak, on 06/23/2008, -13/+8Wow, the christofanatics are out in full ***** force in this thread. Carry on, lunatics!
        • TheFinaleofSeem, on 06/23/2008, -5/+2@Takamalak

          I'm an agnostic. I'm just sick of stupid assholes on both sides of the religious debate. Believe what you want and let others do the same.
      • iJessicaRabbit, on 06/23/2008, -7/+2Ignorant??! On what count?!?

        Buddhism is severely being knocked down in China. Are you familiar with the Dalai Lama? He's that guy that won the Nobel Peace Prize, the Congressional Gold Metal and is probably the most harmonious and loving person alive today. That guy has been Exiled from China. Also, becuase you must not be very current with news, monks are disappearing in your beloved China. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM ...

        And in terms of me saying that Christianity is messed up.... Christianity isn't a religion any more than it is a political system. For a Digger I'd think even You would be turned off about that.
        • TheFinaleofSeem, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2Yes, China is not nice to Buddhism. That goes without saying. You concepts of Christianity are severely and grotesquely warped. Yes, it is a religion. It's also become a political system of sorts only because stupid asshats made it so, not because that's it's nature. Believe it or not, a lot of Christians are content to believe and worship as they see fit while letting others go off and do their own thing. Oh, wait, that's not the kind of thing you see splattered in the news (or on Digg), so I guess it doesn't matter.
      • toowired77, on 06/24/2008, -0/+0Gun in the left hand, Bible in the right hand. Do not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.

        Crusades
        Slavery
        Apartheid
        Inquisition

        Should I go on. Christianity is about Empire building. Moral structure for a western empire.
    • rryanhayes, on 06/23/2008, -1/+16hmmmm Buddha...love the world and your neighbors, Christ...love your neighbor as yourself, Buddha...feed the poor.....Christ....fed the poor......maybe its not that the religions are so different, but instead, humanity has screwed Christianity up, and changed what it was meant to be. Maybe instead, the Chinese will get it right, and there can be an Eastern influence instead of a Western influence.
      • sparql, on 06/23/2008, -8/+8What is bothersome is calling Buddhism a religion. They don't believe in magic men who live in the clouds.
        • rryanhayes, on 06/23/2008, -4/+10funny, I dont believe in magic men who live in clouds either....I believe in this guy who called himself Jesus and went around teaching people to care about each other, no matter what their beliefs were.

          Who is this magic man you speak of?
        • sparql, on 06/23/2008, -2/+3I'm pretty certain part of being Christian involves belief in Yahweh.
        • trogdoor, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2@rryanhays

          Do you believe that this man of whom you speak came back from the dead? Performed miracles? Claimed to be the son of God? That's fine if you don't believe any of those things but given that the only source for what Jesus preached is the Bible, and in the Bible Jesus claims to perform magic, I wonder why you discount the magical claims but trust the content of his teachings on morality.

          I am honestly curious, there seems to be a contradiction but maybe you can clear that up.
        • rryanhayes, on 06/23/2008, -1/+1I am not saying that I do not believe those things, however, if i do, how does it hurt you? If I am practicing the teachings of a man who taught great things, and if by following those teachings I can make the world a better place, then why does it matter what my personal beliefs are if I am not trying to put them on anyone else?
          St. Francis said it best. He said teach the word of God where ever you go, use words when necessary. This is what is lost in Christianity, especially today. Christians today would rather stand on a soap box and scream at others, trying to change who they are, rather than just live the life they are supposed to be living, and answer the questions of those who may be curious about it. It is not a Christians job, or anyones job, no matter what their faith is in, to try and convince others that they are right; this decision is something that must be left up to the individual.
          Now, if my religion can be proven wrong, then I will most definitely stop practicing it and believing in it, but as of yet, it has not been proven wrong. There is a point, where faith takes over where the facts stop; in ALMOST every belief, this is true. For instance, and this is going to get me canned very quickly, but what the heck =) Evolution. Scientists have fossils, and layers of earth, and carbon dating, and skeletons to prove evolution, but not one scientist has seen an ape evolve into a human. They have deduced that this is the logcal course for what has happened, but, in some degree, they have to have faith that this deduction is correct. For me, I believe that Jesus Christ lived, and that he performed miraculous events. Is it possible that he was just a scientist ahead of his time, able to dupe the people who knew nothing of technology, possibly. He had many great teachings, that if practiced, under any "title" of religion, would transform the world, regardless of the "extras" that I as a Christian hold true. I have faith that Christ was the son of God, and he died for me. If this can be proven wrong, by actual physical proof of aliens, historical documents, another earth, or anything else that can be deemed as factual proof, then i will denounce my religion, but until then, it is what I believe, and as an American, I am entitled to do so.
        • BoneheadFarker, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1@rryanhayes

          So you are willing to believe something without any proof at all, unless someone comes to you with proof that you're wrong? Not only this, but you have misconceptions about how evolution works, and yet you show these misconceptions as evidence that science somehow works on faith like religion does? Yes, you are going to get stomped on for that one, because it is a cop-out argument that completely disregards the hard work people have put into proving evolution. There are no beliefs involved in science...only observation, hypothesis, and testing.

          How about this...toss the faith away, keep the lessons, and just be nice to people without the superstitions. It is possible to be moral without religion. By having faith that all these things are real without any proof, you give power to those who would use your faith for their own gain. You give them power to make you believe lies. And you give them power to prevent others from discovering the truth about the world. Many people throughout history have been persecuted for just saying how the world actually works, simply because it went against what the religious leader's believed. You may say that it's the leaders that were the problem, but it was people like you that gave them their power.

          You are fully entitled to believe whatever you want to believe. But your beliefs might very well be what prevents you from seeing the truth...
        • rryanhayes, on 06/24/2008, -0/+0how and when was evolution proved? I am not at all saying that it isnt a possibility, but in what lab and in what experiment have they been able to recreate evolution: a one celled organism showing signs that it has the potential to grow into a complex organism such as man? It cant be proven, because it would take millions of years for such an experiment to be able to be carried out, thus scientists have to draw conclusions, rather than have factual information to support their ideas.
          I interpret the world as a place that was indeed created, but not by chance, instead, by God. This is my belief. Im sorry if you think that makes me a monster of some sort, but this is how i choose to live my life. I believe, what YOU interpret as lies, but to me, they are the points at which i have faith.
          As for the people who use my faith for their own gain, well within my faith, they are going to have to answer for all of their actions, they dont get away with their legalism, bigotry, and atrocities, just because they did them in the name of my religion.
          The bottom line for me is, if I am wrong, then what have i lost? I lived a full and happy life, where i touched peoples lives, cared for my neighbor, tried to understand rather than war, died, and will sleep eternally.... but what if by some "far fetched" chance, as some might put it, I am right and you are wrong.....?
    • UTKevdawg, on 06/23/2008, -3/+12That is odd perception. I mean I know where it stems from, there have been some abhorrent Christian leaders and I am sorry that is what you see when you see Christianity. But if you look at what Christianity is and says, it is beautiful. God loves humanity so much that he gave them free will and then died so their mistakes would be forgiven. Buddhism teaches no redemption or grace. Only self absorption through personal denial of desires.
      • sparql, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3Self absorption? The entire point of Buddhism is you are personally responsible for your own actions, including harm you do to others.
        • UTKevdawg, on 06/23/2008, -1/+2Your right poor choice of words but the concept was not. Buddhism teaches that you yourself are responsible and that only you can atone fialing to take into account another's actions. But the reason for all of this is to end your suffering on your journey to becoming a buddha. Its four truths are the truth that is suffering, the truth that is the arising of suffering, the truth that is the end of suffering, the truth that is the way leading to the end of suffering. And all of those relate to you not others around you.
        • sparql, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3That's arguable though, because in following the path your actions should have a positive effect on those around you. Charity for instance: Buddhism would teach that if you had 2 beans, and came across a hungry person, you would give him one of your beans.
    • Hangly, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1How is Christianity any more or less messed up than Buddhism?
  • DarkReign16, on 06/23/2008, -4/+2
    • smartmlp, on 06/23/2008, -0/+5China is communist as a communist party still rules the country. Dont confuse an economic market with a political party.
  • myass666mlong, on 06/23/2008, -28/+3http://freshstation.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=c ...
    china big fail
  • GorfTron, on 06/23/2008, -38/+108As an atheist, I would rather see christianity spread than the other ***** out there. The last thing the world needs is the Muslim, Sharia Republic of China.
    • jcaino, on 06/23/2008, -17/+66The last thing the world needs is zealots. Of any religion or belief system.
      • neurobox, on 06/23/2008, -5/+3Satan says: Right on, sucker. Say it zealously.
      • gn0stik, on 06/23/2008, -0/+5I agree with that brother. Just leave use non-zealot Christians alone please.
      • fuisgofg, on 06/23/2008, -1/+4MY LIFE FOR AIUR.
    • takamalak, on 06/23/2008, -17/+9There is a lot of sense in this comment. Better the enemy we know than the one we don't.
      • cosinezero, on 06/23/2008, -8/+3There's a lot of naivete in this comment; GorfTron is sadly mistaken if he thinks christianity has no aims on being as oppressive as islam.
        • ostracize, on 06/23/2008, -2/+8There's even more naivete if you think most Christians want a government as oppressive as Islam. I wager there are far more who just want to keep the church and state separate. It's the other ones who are more vocal.
    • jandor, on 06/23/2008, -9/+10The lesser of two evils?
    • esfisher, on 06/23/2008, -4/+24I, for one, welcome Lord Xenu's Galactic Federation of China.
      • GorfTron, on 06/23/2008, -0/+6Now THAT is ***** scary... A Scientologist China.
    • SSUK, on 06/23/2008, -5/+4Was this sarcasm? I really want it to be... But I have a sneaking suspicion it may not...
    • xNarrowSoulx, on 06/23/2008, -7/+2Zealots are zealots. While it *is* good to see Christianity spread than the other ***** out there, the ***** you should be comparing it to is Scientology or something, rather than Islam.
      • Pake, on 06/23/2008, -0/+6Scientology doesn't have extremist blowing themselves up, so no, it's not Scientology.
        • neurobox, on 06/23/2008, -0/+4True. But they do have sofa-stomping.
    • HenvY, on 06/23/2008, -0/+3Exactly what I was going to say, even though agreeing makes me feel a little dirty. Christianity as it is widely practiced now is far less 'extreme'(with regards to effect on daily life etc) than comparable Islam, and, although admittedly i'm don't possess great knowledge of Islamic scripture, the aforementioned fact makes me feel there is less opportunity for radical christianity.
    • ramow, on 06/23/2008, -6/+1The last thing we need is a guy like you GorfTron! Learn to love and not to hate!
    • GorfTron, on 06/23/2008, -1/+18Well, boo ***** hoo, people. I meant what I said. I know lots of the biggest blockhead Christers you will ever meet, but they won't cut your ***** head off for saying the wrong thing about Jesus. We argue about evolution, but nobody yells. I had a Muslim friend that lost it and yelled and screamed about my position on evolution 'offending' him. Another Muslim friend flipped out about using the name Mohammad in a disrespectful way. I won't even mention the bacon flavored chips that got into the party mix. It is bacon 'FLAVOR', not REAL bacon! I'm sorry, but the average Muslim is quite a bit further down the road to extremism than most Christers I would consider extreme.
      • ChromaVita, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2Almost every traditional religion has its share of ridiculous rules and decrees such as women are unequal, or not speaking badly about certain things, the main difference is how they're followed. It doesn't matter what the religion is, the defining characteristic is how extremist the organization is. Being Christian or being Muslim isn't as huge of a difference as people think, but being rational or being extremist is the defining characteristic.
    • drjones78, on 06/23/2008, -7/+5Depends on the brand of Christianity. The biblical literalistic movement in the US is practically engaging in a full out war against science and education... it'd be a pity if it spread elsewhere.
    • monoa, on 06/23/2008, -8/+6Saying you'd rather more Christians than Muslims is like saying you'd rather have anthrax instead of cyanide on your cornflakes.

      We don't want *any* of these whack jobs running around, so don't legitimise them by saying cult X is better than cult Y.
    • manogamez, on 06/23/2008, -3/+3Intolerant hyppocrite.
    • barius, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2If we're lucky, it will at least be some form of 'reformed' Christianity like Presbyterianism. God help us (lol) if they adopt Catholicism. The last thing we need is another 1.5 billion people worshiping god-damned crying Mary statues and telling gays they're going to hell because God said so.
  • ImperialSoren, on 06/23/2008, -27/+8man, if god could get a hold of them it would really retard their progress like it does here and in the middle east. as it stands now, is all I here from china is ruthless efficiency and growth stories. wait til they have to deal religious blockheads like the rest of the world, not that I really have anything against china, I just don't really want them to dominate the world so soon. go china! erect a city of prisons to hold the sodomites and sinners!!
    • Rippleeffect, on 06/23/2008, -2/+7You think that religious people in general hold back this world from progress? What about the fact that most science was driven by religious men wanting to know more about God and the created universe? (I'd give you some quick references but googling "Christian" and "Scientist" doesn't work for what I'm talking about)
      Conversely, do you feel that non religious people are the most driven force for progress?
      • Tezkat, on 06/23/2008, -2/+2Lies, scientists are naturally inquisitive and would have wanted to discover the world, christianity or no christianity.
      • ImperialSoren, on 06/