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Israeli Tank Shell Kills Palestinian Family in Gaza
voanews.com — An Israeli tank shell slammed into a Palestinian home in Gaza, killing four children, under six years old, and their mother. The family was eating breakfast when the explosion occurred.
ramises- 145 diggs
- digg it
- cageybee, on 04/28/2008, -17/+45terrorists!
- neocognitism, on 04/28/2008, -13/+23In this case I agree. This is a blatant act of terrorism, one of the more indisputable ones to add to the long list for the IOF.
Let's see, in one day we equal three years worth of deaths due to Qassams. Israel could stop this any day it wants. Instead they create more militants by murdering more civilians in war crime atrocity after war crime atrocity. Gosh, it almost *seems* like they want war to continue, when you look at the IOF's actions. Could they also be for the "Greater Israel?"
All done under the apartheid system and the current state of genocide.- Tangaroa, on 04/29/2008, -17/+13Bad aim is not terrorism no matter how much you would like it to be. Everything else you said is also a lie except maybe the numbers out of context.
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -12/+14What religion were your parents, ultra-Zionist atheist?
- jaymzdean, on 04/29/2008, -7/+5"Bad aim"
!!
It looks like someones been sweetening their shredded wheat with high-***** corn syrup. Be careful. It'll rot your brain and very soon you'll be permanently useless.
- Tangaroa, on 04/29/2008, -17/+13Bad aim is not terrorism no matter how much you would like it to be. Everything else you said is also a lie except maybe the numbers out of context.
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -6/+6"The Israeli army said it used tanks and aircraft to target Palestinian gunmen in an area often used to fire rockets. A tank shell apparently went astray and struck the home."
1st, how's an astray bullet "terrorism"?
2nd, they were targeting gunmen operating and firing rockets from the area. Why were the terrorists doing it in a residential area knowing that that stuff can happen? They have plenty of places in Gaza to shoot from that don't endanger the citizens.- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -0/+9Forgot to add. I'm really sorry for the kids and their family. It's sad that that stuff happens.
- jaymzdean, on 04/29/2008, -7/+6Forgot to add. You're really sorry for the people who are having a wall built around their country. It's sad that that stuff happens, too.
http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/wall.ht ...- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -4/+9That wall is saving Israeli lives. Fact is: before the wall was built, terrorist attacks were a normal thing. Now, they are a rare thing.
And anyway, isn't the Jordan border open? How is that "Having a wall built AROUND their country"?
It's not really different than this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%9 ...
It's called a border, and it was about time we get one. - neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6That wall is only stealing land.
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -2/+6Care to explain?
- jaymzdean, on 04/29/2008, -6/+5Since I view you as a threat (and I want your land) I will build a wall around you and your family and annex whatever acreage falls outside that wall. You can trust I will make sure food, water and medical supplies can make it to you through checkpoints in the wall. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
- ramises, on 04/29/2008, -6/+4@urik88
UN Resolution 242 calls on Israeli to withdraw from the occupied terrirtories, including the West Bank, the borders of which are supposed to look like this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WestBankGoverna ...
The illigal Israeli wall effectively steals land by redrawing the borders like this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Westbank_barrie ...
(The green represents land that Palestinians can enjoy freedom of movement within. They would have to pass through checkpoints to get from one green area to the next, and have no access to the rest of the West Bank) - urik88, on 04/29/2008, -5/+6@jaymzdean
Wrong. The right version would be:
Since you keep blowing up my citizens and refuse to accept the fact that this land was earned by legal ways, I will build a wall separating you from me, so you stop blowing up my citizens and infrastructure. You can get food, water and medical supplies from Jordan since you waste all your money on weapons.
@ramises
It calls for Israel to withdraw from territories. Not from THE territories, which implies that Israel doesn't have to withdraw completely from the territories.
And the resolution that says that you can't win territory by meanings of war, talks only about the attacking side. Since Israel was the defensive side, it was allowed to gain territory.
Experience already showed what a complete withdraw accomplishes. Qassams falling further and more attacks. - ramises, on 04/30/2008, -3/+4@urik88
That is a ridiculous semantic dispute... - urik88, on 04/30/2008, -3/+5It is so ridiculous, that the Spanish traduction had to be fixed because the "THE" was included, and it changed the meaning.
If they fixed the Spanish traduction, then I think that the original meaning was the pro-israeli interpretation. - hadees, on 04/30/2008, -3/+2It is moot anyway, the resolution was non binding. If the UN wanted people to take their resolutions seriously then they might want to start by fixing the joke which is the Human Rights Council.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2 ...
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -4/+9That wall is saving Israeli lives. Fact is: before the wall was built, terrorist attacks were a normal thing. Now, they are a rare thing.
- jaymzdean, on 04/29/2008, -7/+6Forgot to add. You're really sorry for the people who are having a wall built around their country. It's sad that that stuff happens, too.
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -0/+9Forgot to add. I'm really sorry for the kids and their family. It's sad that that stuff happens.
- neocognitism, on 04/28/2008, -13/+23In this case I agree. This is a blatant act of terrorism, one of the more indisputable ones to add to the long list for the IOF.
- AlwaysAwake, on 04/28/2008, -3/+37This is the horror of war. It is ugly, and the suffering of innocents on all sides immense. And finally, after the fighting end, the horror lives on in the minds and hearts of the survivors, often leading to future wars. Seeing the truth of these images, only the heartless wish to continue this cycle in humanity which has gone on forever up to this moment. It never brings lasting peace.
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -26/+11I agree completely. There is one organization that has the power to stop this. It is called Hamas.
- caferrell, on 04/28/2008, -9/+24You do not agree completely because if you do you would realize that there are many parties who must stop this.
Hamas is one of them and so is Fatah, but then so is the Israeli government that has not ever negotiated in good faith becuase they have never stopped the construction of settlements in the occupied territories.
Other parties that must go along with the Peace Process are Likud and the three religious parties in Israel that are always pushing for the complete annaexation of the West Bank.
Hamas is a reaction to the policies of Israel. Stop the policies that have destroyed Palestine and Hamas will be your friends.- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -16/+12"Hamas is a reaction to the policies of Israel."
Blowing up buses full of people? Blowing up pizzerias full of teenagers? Gunning down 15-year-old yeshiva students? Firing rockets into kindergartens? All these are simply reactions to the policies of Israel, and are therefore justified, right?
"Stop the policies that have destroyed Palestine and Hamas will be your friends."
Some friends... http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm- chrisjj, on 04/30/2008, -1/+3You should know that no death can be justified in this context. The fact is, however, that there are more deaths through traffic accidents than terrorism in Israel. The facts speak for themselves - a disproportionate number of Palestinians are being killed in this conflict - see http://ifamericansknew.org
- Dynamis, on 04/29/2008, -7/+8"Hamas is a reaction to the policies of Israel"
The attacks against Israel pre-date their policies. Israel has been under attack since day 1. Even Hamas will admit that they are attacking Israel because it should not exist (their words). - urik88, on 04/29/2008, -3/+7"The Israeli army said it used tanks and aircraft to target Palestinian gunmen in an area often used to fire rockets. A tank shell apparently went astray and struck the home."
That's why after Israel pulled out of Gush Katif, the 1st reaction was to destroy the farm installations and to use them to shoot missiles to Ashkelon. Way to go!
And the fact is:
If Hamas stopped operating, Israel would leave the Palestinians alone, and eventually allow them into Israel again.
If the IDF stopped operating, the Israelis would be annihilated.- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -2/+6About the quotation, I didn't press Ctrl+C well. It was supposed to be:
"Hamas is a reaction to the policies of Israel. Stop the policies that have destroyed Palestine and Hamas will be your friends."
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -2/+6About the quotation, I didn't press Ctrl+C well. It was supposed to be:
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -16/+12"Hamas is a reaction to the policies of Israel."
- 911ArtStudent, on 04/28/2008, -10/+12Wouldn't Hamas need a lot more firepower to put a stop to this? I mean it began with Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings and continued when Israel repeatedly refused Hamas' offers of a ceasefire. Israel still refused a ceasefire even after Hamas responded with rocket attacks. So how much more firepower do you think Hamas will need by your reckoning wpi97?
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -13/+11"Wouldn't Hamas need a lot more firepower to put a stop to this? "
No firepower necessary. All they have to do is renounce violence, recognize Israel's right to exist, accept previously signed treaties between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and come to the negotiating table. Very simple, really.- PlagueOfMorons, on 04/28/2008, -9/+14"Israel's right to exist" = Israel's right to take land whenever they want, build settlements wherever they want, kill children with any excuse they want. It takes TWO to stop hatred.
- Tangaroa, on 04/29/2008, -8/+10> Wouldn't Hamas need a lot more firepower to put a stop to this?
Given that it is Hamas doing almost all the attacking, no. They just have to quit with the attacks and prevent other groups in Gaza from conducting attacks, and Israel will no longer need to go into Gaza to arrest the terrorist field commanders that are ordering attacks on Israel.
> I mean it began with Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings
... no, and I have no idea how you got that impression. It began when large numbers of Jews started buying up land in Palestine and moving in. The "Palestinians" (as if they are the only ones with a right to the name) are a racist hate group born out of anti-immigrant bigotry. The violence began and will continue as long as this hatred exists.
Israel started assassinating people as a response to the terrorism. Just about every killing in war in an extrajudicial killing so I see no reason to why Israel's killings of enemy commanders are in any way worse than any other country's killings of enemy commanders.
> and continued when Israel repeatedly refused Hamas' offers of a ceasefire.
Israel wants peace, not a restriction on Israel retaliating against other groups that attack Israel plus a promise that the war will continue when Hamas is better armed. Hamas can obtain a ceasefire by simply not shooting at Israel.
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -13/+11"Wouldn't Hamas need a lot more firepower to put a stop to this? "
- monsieurginger, on 04/28/2008, -10/+10funny that you mention that hamas is the one that is capable to stop this because secondary reports suggest that it was hamas explosives that blew up the house with the family inside
- shekissesfrogs, on 05/01/2008, -1/+3That is what Israel always says. Haaretz says
This was filmed, a plane droped a bomb on the kitchen table.
For all of you that want to blame Hamas and the Quassam Rockets, all you have to do is look at the WestBank, which doesn't fire Rockets, yet Houses are still demolished, Zionist colonizers still attack Palestinians, The Palestinian portion of Jeruselem has been ethnically cleased and their neighborhoods are under gentrification now. Jewish human waste is pumped into palestinian areas threatening drinking water. Mosques and Christian Churches built in the first century have been destroyed and damaged. Palestinians no longer can visit their holy sites. If isrea wanted peace it would offer it, not marginalize the elected government. Occupied and imprisoned people cannot negotiate freedom with their jailors.
- shekissesfrogs, on 05/01/2008, -1/+3That is what Israel always says. Haaretz says
- caferrell, on 04/28/2008, -9/+24You do not agree completely because if you do you would realize that there are many parties who must stop this.
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -26/+11I agree completely. There is one organization that has the power to stop this. It is called Hamas.
- imacommi, on 04/28/2008, -8/+25This is a really sad story, the truth is that there are always two sides to every conflict and despite the "terrorist" labelling of either side by the media, the cycle of violence needs to stop. I have a picture on my wall from the NYT of a M1-A1 abrams tank driving through a palestinian camp with two little boys less than 9 years old running straight at the tank and throwing rocks at it, I think this picture tells us a whole lot about the conflict going on in the west bank and gaza...
- duke3k, on 04/29/2008, -7/+3The two sides are not created equal here. The only way to stop the cycle of violence, when the irrational palestinians are involved, is ultimate violence by one side or the other.
- proliance, on 04/29/2008, -0/+11There are no M1-A1's in that area. You may be confusing an Israeli tank with an American one, but your post implies that the US Army is somehow assaulting Palestinians.
- drz130, on 04/29/2008, -3/+2"I have a picture on my wall from the NYT of a M1-A1 abrams tank driving through a palestinian camp with two little boys less than 9 years old running straight at the tank and throwing rocks at it"
What does this say about how the parents view their children? Are they the precious, cherished, loved ones they are blessed with, or tools to be used against their avowed enemy? This exemplifies the Palestinian society, it's goals, and aspirations. - shekissesfrogs, on 05/01/2008, -0/+2Stop funding isreal. It only rewards them as they play word games and stall peace efforts while they usurp and steal from the real owners. They were the terrorists until they organized their lobbying efforts and paid the politicians to side with them. Nothing lasts forever, and this will be exposed to history as the horror that it is. Americans and Irealis will be saddled with the guilt that German citizens carry now, unfortunately forcing the Germans to watch movies of the horrors hasn't innoculated them from failure to recognize it again. Instead they coddle Isreal out of guilt, which is really no favor at all. Israel Apologists, Imagine telling your grandchildren you didn't really know what was going on and inside you will know that stuck your head in the sand, becasue the information is out there. You make me sick.
- AvangionQ, on 04/28/2008, -1/+21Alright, time to put my foot in my mouth ... this is the trouble with battles and wars being fought in urban areas -- if you keep shooting and blowing stuff up, eventually some non-combatants are going to wind up dead ... there's got to be a better way to solve these ancient disputes -- but I'm wracking my brains trying to think up a solution that might have a chance of being agreed upon ... anyone have any *good* ideas?
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -20/+13"... anyone have any *good* ideas?"
Yes. Hamas should stop trying to kill Jews, and start building a better life for their own people.- NeoConSlayer, on 04/28/2008, -12/+17"... Hamas should stop trying to kill Jews, and start building a better life for their own people. ..."
Maybe the Israeli's should stop slaughtering the Palestinian people wholesale and Hamas would stop trying to kill Israeli's.- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -15/+14Let's see... Israel _left_ Gaza, forcibly removing 8000 of their own citizens. Hamas responded with rocket attacks on Israeli towns. What did you say the Israelis should do, again?
- caferrell, on 04/28/2008, -13/+15Israel has been a dominating occupational power for over 40 years now. Do not expect that the moment that Israel pulls out of Gaza (at the same time that they erect the wall in the West Bank and accelerate settlements there) that the Palestinians will be content.
You have all the guns, you have all the money, try a little humility, a little understanding and love.
You Israelis should be ashamed of yourselves for having learned nothing at all from the lessons of WWII. Now what was done to your people you are doing to others.
Shame on you. - PlagueOfMorons, on 04/28/2008, -14/+8Let's see, recently Israel looted and demolished Palestinian ORPHANAGES. It takes some kind of craziness for IDF leadership to attack children. What did you say the Israelis should do, again?
- Dynamis, on 04/29/2008, -3/+8@PlagueOfMorons,
Before I call Bull Crap on you why don't you take the opportunity to throw up a reliable source with some information on that claim. - PlagueOfMorons, on 05/01/2008, -2/+2@Dynamis: if you would Google "Israel Palestinian orphanage" and look for links discussing invasion and destruction of Palestinian orphanages by the IOF, it will be better and more credible than if I push links at you. After you Google, come back to Digg and search for the discussions we had here, same topic. I'm not going to try to force a viewpoint on you. However, I stand behind what I reported on this one.
- caferrell, on 04/28/2008, -13/+15Israel has been a dominating occupational power for over 40 years now. Do not expect that the moment that Israel pulls out of Gaza (at the same time that they erect the wall in the West Bank and accelerate settlements there) that the Palestinians will be content.
- Kizilbash, on 04/28/2008, -13/+19First of all: Israel did not end even the occupation of Gaza completely: it still controls the air space and the waters, as well as the borders. Second: Gaza does not make a viable state. It is no more than a tuisland. The occupation and colonisation of the other parts of Palestine (the West Bank and East Jerusalem) continues full on. The removal of settlements from Gaza was a tactical move, not a strategic choice that made any difference in the lives of the Palestinian population in general.
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -10/+13"it still controls the air space and the waters, as well as the borders"
And if Israel gives control over the air space and the waters to Hamas, what exactly do you think would happen? And why, pray tell me, why should Israel open the border between itself and Gaza? So that Hamas could send suicide bombers across, and not waste precious rockets?
"Second: Gaza does not make a viable state. "
And Gaza plus a disjoint West Bank does? Once again, Palestine is not a state, nor has it ever been a state. It made sense for Gaza to be a part of Egypt, and for the West Bank to be a part of Jordan, and it would have stayed that way, had Egypt not massed its troops in the Sinai on the Israeli border in 1967, and had the young king Hussein of Jordan not join the fight.
"The removal of settlements from Gaza was a tactical move"
Tactical, shmactical. The fact remains that Israel left Gaza. Or are you saying that Israel should have kept its troops and citizens there?
"not a strategic choice that made any difference in the lives of the Palestinian population in general."
It could have made a great deal of difference in the lives of the people of Gaza, if Hamas, the elected government, spent its time and effort building infrastructure, rather than attacking Israeli civilians. Unfortunately, as things are now, the people of Gaza were better off under Israeli military rule. The responsibility for this paradoxical situation rests solely with Hamas.
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -10/+13"it still controls the air space and the waters, as well as the borders"
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -15/+14Let's see... Israel _left_ Gaza, forcibly removing 8000 of their own citizens. Hamas responded with rocket attacks on Israeli towns. What did you say the Israelis should do, again?
- wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -2/+5A day later, and my comment is at -7 diggs. Apparently quite a few people think that Hamas should continue to try to kill Jews, instead of building a life for their own people... Sad...
- NeoConSlayer, on 04/28/2008, -12/+17"... Hamas should stop trying to kill Jews, and start building a better life for their own people. ..."
- NeoConSlayer, on 04/28/2008, -15/+17"... a better way to solve these ancient disputes ..."
Sorry to burst your bubble, but these "disputes" are NOT "ancient".
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/mapstellstory.ht ...
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/historicdo ...
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/history.ht ...- oldhick, on 04/29/2008, -3/+11Eh, Judaism built Jerusalem. Its name is mentioned in their prayers. Certain sects pray in Jerusalem's direction. It was a holy city for Jerusalem over three thousand years ago. To place the current struggle in some isolated context where history plays no role is simply ignorant.
- 911ArtStudent, on 04/28/2008, -13/+13Yes. Accept Hamas' offer of a ten year truce and negotiate a lasting peace with them
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -9/+15Have you read Hamas charter? You really should. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
- 911ArtStudent, on 04/29/2008, -13/+8Have you seen their offers of truce? Has Israel recognized Hamas' right to exist or that of Palestine?
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -6/+17Indeed, Israel has. Proof of it is that Gaza has no more settlers and there is an ongoing dialog with the Palestinian Authority.
Have you already read Hanyie's "approach" to the peace you are trying to sell, where he admits it is only a "tactic" ?
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -6/+17Indeed, Israel has. Proof of it is that Gaza has no more settlers and there is an ongoing dialog with the Palestinian Authority.
- 911ArtStudent, on 04/29/2008, -13/+8Have you seen their offers of truce? Has Israel recognized Hamas' right to exist or that of Palestine?
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -9/+15Have you read Hamas charter? You really should. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/29/2008, -10/+6These are the choices:
1. Israel finally invades Palestine, takes complete control, gives all Palestinians Israeli citizenship and equal rights, stops calling it "the mother land", the most racist concept of them all.
2. A third state invades both Israel and Palestine and forces the unification of the state. Ensures citizenship and equal rights on both sides, controls the government and removes the religious element.
That's it. The Palestinian government has no control over its citizens, no matter what people think. When you study who these terrorists are, especially the ones who blow themselves up, you find out that almost all of them lost their family members through violence, justified or not, they lost their family.
That's why the truces and accords never work. Hamas and Israel can sign whatever they want, it won't stop a woman who lost her home, her husband and her kids from choosing to blow herself up.
And Israel can't do nothing when attacked, but when they attack they always kill innocents, simply because citizens are the ennemy. It's a social war.
That's why the state needs to be unified and why the nationalist (Zionist) element has to be removed. A democratic state does not make a difference between its citizens.
This problem keeps going on because Israel can't put an end to it without a massacre and international condemnation (real one, with boycotts and embargos). And Palestine has no standing army or anything that's strong enough to create a stalemate. They are just plain poor.
Add the racial/religious divide and you have a terrible situation where everyone suffers.
So, one state, equal representation, equal rights and no zionism: one big peaceful country.- wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -7/+9Why are these the only two choices? Why can't the Palestinians accept the Israeli offer of a statehood, reject violence and start building a life for themselves? If security were not an issue, and if all the international aid were used to build infrastructure, such as hotels and restaurants in Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, the Palestinians could have been rich from Christian tourism alone.
Or why can't Egypt take over Gaza, and Jordan take over the West Bank, and take care of their Arab brethren? This was the original land-for-peace deal that Israel proposed after the Six Day War. This is the reason why Israel never formally annexed Gaza or Judea and Samaria, known to you as the West Bank.
"That's why the state needs to be unified and why the nationalist (Zionist) element has to be removed."
Only if you convince other ethnically-based nation-states, such as France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea, China, Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Iran, etc. to do the same.- archiesteel, on 04/29/2008, -4/+3"Only if you convince other ethnically-based nation-states, such as France, Italy, Germany..."
Except none of these are ethnically-based nation-states. In fact, France's constitution(s) specifically reject the notion of race, substituting the universal notion of "citizen" instead.
The same is true for the other Western Democracies you've indicated, as well as most of the other countries listed. You should learn more about this topic before posting false information...- Beveridge89, on 04/29/2008, -1/+3And when theres some threat of France not being majority French, what do you think thier reaction will be? Already, with a lower ethnic minority population than Israel, Far Right nationlists can get over 10% of the vote. France, and the rest of Europe, are going to go increasingly far right in the next few decades, so they are hardly fitting examples.
- archiesteel, on 04/29/2008, -4/+3"Only if you convince other ethnically-based nation-states, such as France, Italy, Germany..."
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/29/2008, -9/+5"Why can't the Palestinians accept the Israeli offer of a statehood, reject violence and start building a life for themselves?"
Because it doesn't matter what the officials agree to. Citizens will do what they do on their own and Israel will retaliate. Back to square one.
"why can't Egypt take over Gaza, and Jordan take over the West Bank, and take care of their Arab brethren?"
Because Israel is built on stolen land. Palestinians are not Egypt's responsibility. And Palestinians don't want to be Egyptian.
"Only if you convince other ethnically-based nation-states, such as France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea, China, Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Iran, etc. to do the same."
Relativism, you're not 5 years old.- wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -6/+9"Because it doesn't matter what the officials agree to. Citizens will do what they do on their own and Israel will retaliate. Back to square one."
If the Palestinians want to be a nation they need to start acting like one, and honor the agreements made by their elected representatives. And if their elected representatives what to be a government, they need to start acting like one, and enforce order among their constituents. You seem to imply that the Palestinians are ignorant barbarians, who will continue attacking Israeli civilians against their own best interests.
"Because Israel is built on stolen land."
*****. Israel is the most legitimate country on the planet, established with the approval of the UN. Did the US ask any other country whether it was ok for them to declare independence?
"Palestinians are not Egypt's responsibility."
Gaza was controlled by Egypt for 19 years between 1948 and 1967. The West Bank was formally annexed by Jordan, and also controlled by it during the same period. It's about time that the Arab states took responsibility for their kin, the way that Israel did for the 900,000 Jews expelled from the Arab states.
"And Palestinians don't want to be Egyptian."
Did you ask them? Did Egypt ask them in 1948? The majority of Jordanian citizens consider themselves Palestinians, and they seem perfectly happy being Jordanian.
""Only if you convince other ethnically-based nation-states, such as France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea, China, Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Iran, etc. to do the same."
Relativism, you're not 5 years old."
What relativism? You, on the other hand, are presenting a prime example of a double standard. Apparently it is ok for all these ethnic groups to exercise their right to self-determination and have ethnically-based nation-states, but not for the Jews.- ElAssoWipo, on 04/29/2008, -8/+7And if Israel wants to be recognized as a nation, they need to not infringe human rights and the numerous conventions.
The difference is that Israel commits state sanctionned crimes against humanity. Palestinians act on their own.
"Apparently it is ok for all these ethnic groups to exercise their right to self-determination and have ethnically-based nation-states, but not for the Jews."
First of all, Jews are not an ethnicity, I take offense to that as a very tall white blue eyed jew. Second, grow the ***** up. The lowest common denominator is not an example to follow. The fact that China commits crimes against humanity doesn't take away the fact that Israel also does.
That's like saying you don't need to get good grades because Bush was president with a C average. - wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -7/+8"The difference is that Israel commits state sanctionned crimes against humanity. Palestinians act on their own. "
No, the difference is that Israel is trying to survive, while the Palestinians are trying to destroy Israel instead of building a state of their own.
"First of all, Jews are not an ethnicity"
That's not what my Soviet birth certificate says. It clearly states that Jewish is the _nationality_, i. e. ethnicity, of my parents. My father's first language is Yiddish. If his ethnicity is not Jewish, then what is it?
We already had this discussion. You can take offense all you want, but your height or blew eyes do not negate millenia of Jewish culture, traditions, art, literature, and music. Jews come in different sizes, heights, and skin colors, yet they share a core set of cultural elements, which make them a distinct ethnic group. IMHO, Jews are much more of an ethnic group than the Palestinian Arabs.
"The lowest common denominator is not an example to follow. "
France, Germany, Japan, and most of European nation-states are the lowest common denominator? LOL! - archiesteel, on 04/29/2008, -3/+7"Jews come in different sizes, heights, and skin colors, yet they share a core set of cultural elements, which make them a distinct ethnic group."
That is correct, though I would expand the term to say "cultural" instead of "ethnic"...and even then, there are quite a few distinct cultures within the Jewish world. That said, the goal should be for people to find common ground as human beings, not entrench themselves within their own communities.
"IMHO, Jews are much more of an ethnic group than the Palestinian Arabs."
Nonsense. A group can't be "more" ethnic than another one. This is not a quantifiable quantity. That analysis of yours smacks of racism, I must say. Palestinian Arabs form as much of an ethnic group as Israeli Jews.
"France, Germany, Japan, and most of European nation-states are the lowest common denominator? LOL!"
You miss the fact that *none* of these states are based on a notion of ethnicity: citizens are citizens, regardless of their ethnic background. Some of these states (such as France) have this inscribed in their constitution. Jeez, the whole *notion* of Universal Human Rights was developed in France! Your ignorance about this is telling... - wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -4/+7"there are quite a few distinct cultures within the Jewish world."
Entirely true. And these cultures are always distinct from the cultures of the countries in which the Jews lived, yet they share common roots, which is what makes Jews a separate ethnic group.
"Nonsense. A group can't be "more" ethnic than another one. This is not a quantifiable quantity. That analysis of yours smacks of racism, I must say. Palestinian Arabs form as much of an ethnic group as Israeli Jews."
I fail to see why saying that Palestinian Arabs may not be an ethnic group is racist, while saying that Jews are not an ethnic group is not.
The term "ethnic" is defined by Webster's as "of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background" IMHO, under this definition, Jews are certainly an ethnic group. On the other hand, one can make an argument, under this definition, that the Palestinians belong to the same ethnic group as Egyptians and/or Jordanians, and are not themselves a distinct ethnic group. In fact, prior to 1948, the term "Palestinian" referred to the Jews of Palestine, and only after 1967 the notion of an Arab Palestinian nation became widely accepted. The counter argument to that would be that since being separated from Jordan and Egypt in 1967 the Palestinians have developed a sense of a distinct ethnic identity. The point is that it makes no sense to attribute a distinct ethnicity to the Palestinians Arabs, while denying it to the Jews.
"You miss the fact that *none* of these states are based on a notion of ethnicity"
I am going to have to go ahead and disagree. France has an organization dedicated to the preservation of the French language, which among other things mandates that all French websites must be in French. Germany, along with 22 other countries, has a law of return, that grants citizenship to ethnic Germans living outside Germany. These countries, despite having significant immigrant populations, are very much ethnically-based, and they take very concrete steps to preserve and develop their languages and cultures. Just having a single official language is a significant step towards an ethnically-based country. Israel, by the way has two: Hebrew and Arabic. The US is certainly an exception, and has no official language at all.
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/29/2008, -8/+7And if Israel wants to be recognized as a nation, they need to not infringe human rights and the numerous conventions.
- wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -6/+9"Because it doesn't matter what the officials agree to. Citizens will do what they do on their own and Israel will retaliate. Back to square one."
- wpi97, on 04/29/2008, -7/+9Why are these the only two choices? Why can't the Palestinians accept the Israeli offer of a statehood, reject violence and start building a life for themselves? If security were not an issue, and if all the international aid were used to build infrastructure, such as hotels and restaurants in Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, the Palestinians could have been rich from Christian tourism alone.
- wpi97, on 04/28/2008, -20/+13"... anyone have any *good* ideas?"
- foopirata, on 04/28/2008, -23/+25http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/978613.html
"The Israel Defense Forces said Monday that a blast that killed six Palestinian civilians in northern Gaza earlier in the day was not caused by an IDF tank shell, as the Palestinians had earlier reported, but was rather a result of militants' explosives.
The IDF investigated the incident, which left a Beit Hanoun mother and her four children dead along with a 17-year-old passerby, and concluded that the deadly explosion occurred when the Israel Air Force, targeting two Palestinian gunmen, fired a missile and hit the gunmen's bags, which were full of ammunition. The missile caused the ammunition cache to explode with force, setting off a chain reaction of additional explosions. "- LadyKofNYC, on 04/28/2008, -16/+20"I investigated the whole incident myself, and my conclusion is that I'm innocent."
- neocognitism, on 04/28/2008, -14/+17Sounds like our wonderful Bush Administration too. "The Emperor cannot be examined."
- proudblackwoman, on 04/29/2008, -14/+2LadyKofNYC - I did not know how else to talk to you. The below is a comment that was made to you from bingobongony:
"cashman...why do you post 5-6 posts in every ***** RonPaul article? And LadyK...why are you still a dumb *****?"
http://digg.com/people/Ronbot_reactions_to_news_of ...
This guy makes references to sex with preschool age girls - please report him to abuse@digg.com and we can get rid of him once and for all.- LadyKofNYC, on 04/29/2008, -7/+5
Thanks for the heads up, PBW. This is the third time I've reported that *****.
- LadyKofNYC, on 04/29/2008, -7/+5
- ramises, on 04/29/2008, -7/+14http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7370502.stm
"Israeli ground forces moved into the Gaza Strip early on Monday morning and entered Beit Hanoun, not far from the border.
During the incursion, a missile smashed through the ceiling of one family's one-storey house while they were having breakfast, witnesses said.
A mother and four of her children - two girls and two boys aged between one and six - were killed, doctors at a local hospital said."- Falldog, on 04/29/2008, -7/+3It also says the same thing which Foopirata posted. Obviously both sides are spinning their propaganda machine and the true cause will probably never be known.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -8/+16It's interesting how you all eat Palestinian "communiques" right up, but don't even give the benefit of the doubt to Israel (even after a proven string of Palestinian fauxtography, etc). But, of course, no bias, you are all just interested in the "truth"...whatever you say it is.
- Kizilbash, on 04/29/2008, -9/+7This is not a 'Palestinian communique'. I don't expect anything even remotely resembling the truth from the Israeli army though. I trust B'Tselem, that's about it. And it is very clear from their figures that this kind of stuff happens all the time, which is why I have no trouble believing it this time. Basically the same thing happened the other week when the Reuters photographer got killed along with several other bystanders.
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -7/+5"Basically the same thing happened the other week when the Reuters photographer got killed along with several other bystanders."
Separate trees! Separate Trees.. Move along folks, no Forrest here. - foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -5/+8Then I guess you'll take into consideration that B'Tselem has not yet reached a "verdict" as their front page indicates, but you all are running way ahead with the fingers...
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -7/+5"Basically the same thing happened the other week when the Reuters photographer got killed along with several other bystanders."
- Kizilbash, on 04/29/2008, -9/+7This is not a 'Palestinian communique'. I don't expect anything even remotely resembling the truth from the Israeli army though. I trust B'Tselem, that's about it. And it is very clear from their figures that this kind of stuff happens all the time, which is why I have no trouble believing it this time. Basically the same thing happened the other week when the Reuters photographer got killed along with several other bystanders.
- Falldog, on 04/29/2008, -4/+12The fact that you guys are digging Foopirata down points out a fundamental flaw in how Diggers handle information. All he did was present the other sides account of the story, nothing more, nothing less. Yet he is dugg down because people don't agree with that side's story? Horrible. Both sides of the story should be presented before your judgment is made, regardless of whether it even changes that judgment.
- davharrington, on 04/29/2008, -5/+12your flaw is you are assuming digg users want to be objective, or even skeptical, surely you must have read a Ron Paul, or a Truther thread,, they acutally come out and say things like "nothing can convince me of xxx"
I wish there was a way you could mark users not just as friends , but as ones you notice to be objective in a discussion, and block all the filthing trolls out.- Falldog, on 04/29/2008, -4/+7I admit naivety lol
- davharrington, on 04/29/2008, -4/+7If there was such a way I'd add you right away,, =D
- Falldog, on 04/29/2008, -4/+7I admit naivety lol
- davharrington, on 04/29/2008, -5/+12your flaw is you are assuming digg users want to be objective, or even skeptical, surely you must have read a Ron Paul, or a Truther thread,, they acutally come out and say things like "nothing can convince me of xxx"
- LadyKofNYC, on 04/28/2008, -16/+20"I investigated the whole incident myself, and my conclusion is that I'm innocent."
- ad33lshahid, on 04/28/2008, -11/+26Have you ever noticed that questioning anybody is fine until you question Israel's policies? I mean you can go to town on President Bush or how ***** our policies are in Iraq and all over the world but as soon as you utter a word against Israel, you are immediately an Anti-Semite??? I thought this country gave me the right to question anyone and everyone.
how can you expect a population of 1.5 million pepole who are forced to live as slaves in their OWN land to welcome israelis with open arms after what Israel has done to them. The average palestinian is stopped at 9 checkpoints on the way to work each morning--at these checkpoints they are often strip searched in front of their own wife and children.
You may remember that just last month Israel said they were devoted to a new peace process, yet signed off to build 100 more homes in occupied territory, which Israel had AGREED would be halted as part of the peace process.
You may remember a couple weeks ago Israeli UN Ambassador called President Jimmy Carter a "bigot" for meeting with the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED representatives of Hamas (yes the same Nobel Peace Prize winning Jimmy Carter). And this is after a survey of Israeli Jews showed that the majority of the population was in favor of peace talks with Hamas.
You may remember just last week a American Jew (Ben-Ami Kadish -- look it up) was charged with four counts of conspiracy, including giving classified documents pertaining to nuclear weapons, fighter jets and missiles to, and acting as an agent of Israel. But this story was promptly buried so that it doesn't see the light of day.
You may remember 3 months ago in Feb 2007 when Israel collectively cut off supply of fuel and electricity to Gaza, their actions were declared to be collective punishment (ghettos of Nazi Germany anyone?) and ILLEGAL against International Law by Human Rights watch.
You may remember just last year when the NIE report came out that said Iran had halted all pursuits of a nuclear weapon several years ago, Israel invited President Bush over to build a case for war against Iran at the expense of the American taxpayer.
You may remember a couple years ago when an Israeli Bulldozer driver drove over and killed 23 year old American Peace Activist Rachel Corey protesting the demolition of Palestinian homes. (let me remind you even the tanks of tiananman square stopped short of driving over and killing the lone protestor in their path---in a communist nation). Yet you will find not many people remember this.
All I will hear in response to this will be "but.. but.. Hamas started it!" give me a break. YES Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks against innocent people are also WRONG (read that again) but I want you to put yourself in the shoes of these people. 2 million were displaced upon the creation of Israel 60 years ago, and ever since then a steady stream of them have been dying or losing their homes. They live under the constant terrorizing of Israeli tanks and troops, constantly having to go through checkpoints in their own land. They have to respect curfews set by Israelis. Their most basic medical and health needs are often denied. Let me ask you. If you were in their shoes, do you think it is entirely unfathomable that you woud react the same way that they do? Do you honestly seek to blame their actions on the ideology of Islam? Do you think people WANT to live miserable lives? Have you seen the decline in quality of life once you go from Israel to Palestinian territories? Its despicable. Give the damn palestinians something to live for, and as soon as you do, then you will see a decline in their backlash. When the people have nothing to live for, then they have everything to die for.- caferrell, on 04/29/2008, -5/+14Thank you, but I'm afraid that it will fall on deaf ears
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -3/+15Bravo. Very well said.
- NonLeftistDiggr, on 04/29/2008, -8/+4Whatever, Israel is willing to live in peace with the palestineans, the palestinians are willing to live with Israel as long as all Israeli's are all dead.
And what about all the arab states that have turned palestinians away the past 60 years?!!! HUH, why dont' you people ever talk about that?!- ad33lshahid, on 05/02/2008, -0/+2arab states that have turned palestinians away? so you're saying the solution is for all the palestinians to get up and leave? The palestinians have a right to that land because they are native to it. Thats more than i can say for 75% of the israeli population.
- ad33lshahid, on 05/02/2008, -0/+3Also, if you believe that actions speak louder than words then your claim that "Israel is willing to live in peace with the palestineans, the palestinians are willing to live with Israel as long as all Israeli's are all dead." fails to hold water as Israel has killed more palestinians in total and a larger proportion of them have been civilians (even with their "precision guided weaponry") than the aggression by the palestinians. Don't get me wrong, i absolutely condemn palestinian acts of violence against innocent level headed israelis but the irony of your comment is overwhelming-- you have only lent credibility to the opposing argument.
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -4/+5"Have you ever noticed that questioning anybody is fine until you question Israel's policies? I mean you can go to town on President Bush or how ***** our policies are in Iraq and all over the world but as soon as you utter a word against Israel, you are immediately an Anti-Semite??? I thought this country gave me the right to question anyone and everyone."
Funny enough, you're the first (or second) person that mentioned anti semitism over here.
"how can you expect a population of 1.5 million pepole who are forced to live as slaves in their OWN land to welcome israelis with open arms after what Israel has done to them. The average palestinian is stopped at 9 checkpoints on the way to work each morning--at these checkpoints they are often strip searched in front of their own wife and children."
Forced to live as slaves? You again show how much you don't know about the situation. About "them living their own land", you're welcome to read about the British Mandate in Palestine, and the Palestinian Diaspora, to inform yourself more.
About the checkpoints, well I guess that it would be better if they were allowed to just bring explosives and contraband into Israel like they did before the checkpoints were installed.
Also the Israelis have to get their stuff checked to get into malls and public places. Nobody bitches about it.
"You may remember that just last month Israel said they were devoted to a new peace process, yet signed off to build 100 more homes in occupied territory, which Israel had AGREED would be halted as part of the peace process."
No response to that, as I'm not informed about it.
"You may remember a couple weeks ago Israeli UN Ambassador called President Jimmy Carter a "bigot" for meeting with the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED representatives of Hamas (yes the same Nobel Peace Prize winning Jimmy Carter). And this is after a survey of Israeli Jews showed that the majority of the population was in favor of peace talks with Hamas."
You may also remember those DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED representatives of Hamas openly calling for the destruction of Israel, brainwashing children into hating Jews (not just Israelis, but also Jews), and using those peace negotiations to rearm themselves.
"You may remember just last week a American Jew (Ben-Ami Kadish -- look it up) was charged with four counts of conspiracy, including giving classified documents pertaining to nuclear weapons, fighter jets and missiles to, and acting as an agent of Israel. But this story was promptly buried so that it doesn't see the light of day."
Yes I do. It wasn't buried. In fact, it's on ABC news.
"You may remember 3 months ago in Feb 2007 when Israel collectively cut off supply of fuel and electricity to Gaza, their actions were declared to be collective punishment (ghettos of Nazi Germany anyone?) and ILLEGAL against International Law by Human Rights watch."
Yes I remember. How it was collective punishment and illegal? Israel provided them with their own Israeli fuel and electricity, and decided to stop providing it. Since when it's an obligation?
What you should read about, is about how Israel kept sending fuel for the Palestinian Hospitals generators and not cause a humanitarian crisis, but it kept being stolen by Hamas to use it to shoot missiles into Israel. That was a really smart move from them. They should keep shooting themselves in the foot. It works amazingly well.
You may remember just last year when the NIE report came out that said Iran had halted all pursuits of a nuclear weapon several years ago, Israel invited President Bush over to build a case for war against Iran at the expense of the American taxpayer.
You may also remember all the proofs that Iran is still developing the nuclear program, and Israel showing the truth to USA.
"You may remember a couple years ago when an Israeli Bulldozer driver drove over and killed 23 year old American Peace Activist Rachel Corey protesting the demolition of Palestinian homes. (let me remind you even the tanks of tiananman square stopped short of driving over and killing the lone protestor in their path---in a communist nation). Yet you will find not many people remember this."
You may remember that "peace" activist burning Israeli and American flags, and helping smuggle weapons into the Palestinian territories. You may also remember knowing that the D9 driver was unable to see her. You may also remember her friends taking pics of the event instead of rescuing her, and later the Palestinian leaders saying that it was a shame that they couldn't tape it.
You may also remember a lot of those pics being (amazingly bad) photoshopped.
"All I will hear in response to this will be "but.. but.. Hamas started it!" give me a break. YES Hamas's indiscriminate rocket attacks against innocent people are also WRONG (read that again) but I want you to put yourself in the shoes of these people. 2 million were displaced upon the creation of Israel 60 years ago, and ever since then a steady stream of them have been dying or losing their homes. They live under the constant terrorizing of Israeli tanks and troops, constantly having to go through checkpoints in their own land. They have to respect curfews set by Israelis. Their most basic medical and health needs are often denied. Let me ask you. If you were in their shoes, do you think it is entirely unfathomable that you woud react the same way that they do? Do you honestly seek to blame their actions on the ideology of Islam? Do you think people WANT to live miserable lives? Have you seen the decline in quality of life once you go from Israel to Palestinian territories? Its despicable. Give the damn palestinians something to live for, and as soon as you do, then you will see a decline in their backlash. When the people have nothing to live for, then they have everything to die for."
They weren't displaced, they left on their own (again, you're welcome to read about the Palestinian Exodus).
They are dying at a rate so steady, that their population is in a big growing rate. If they don't want to die that way, they could stop using their own pipes system to build rockets, and they could also use the money that they get from donations to build and develop themselves instead of using it to buy weapons.
They live under the fear of Israeli troops and checkpoints, because there are Hamas militants operating next to their houses. Maybe they should stop supporting the militants that because of them they have to go through checkpoints.
"Their most basic medical and health needs are often denied." Don't they have hospitals? Again, use your money to buy medicines. Not weapons.
" If you were in their shoes, do you think it is entirely unfathomable that you woud react the same way that they do?" Yes. It happened in a way bigger scale, and the few retaliations that happened, were aimed at soldiers. Not citizens.
"Do you think people WANT to live miserable lives?". According to the Hamas actions, yes. It helps them with the publicity. If they weren't in misery, nobody would give a crap about them. They know that by being that way, the media is aimed towards them.
"Have you seen the decline in quality of life once you go from Israel to Palestinian territories?" Yes. Again, they should stop using their own pipes to build rockets, and their hospital's fuel to power those rockets.
"Give the damn palestinians something to live for, and as soon as you do, then you will see a decline in their backlash. When the people have nothing to live for, then they have everything to die for."
They already have it. It's called "Israel's destruction".- NonLeftistDiggr, on 04/29/2008, -3/+1I know this isnt' the best text editor ever, but I am having a really hard time getting to the main point of your post, or what text is even yours
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -2/+2That's what the quotes and the blank spaces are for.
It goes like this.
His post:"bla bla bla"
My post: bla bla bla.
Blank space
Another post of him: "bla bla bla"
My response to his post: bla bla bla.
Not really hard to understand. The only part that may give a bit of trouble, is the last part in which I quoted him, and then answered in the same line because he asked and said too much things in a single paragraph.
- urik88, on 04/29/2008, -2/+2That's what the quotes and the blank spaces are for.
- ad33lshahid, on 05/02/2008, -0/+2"Funny enough, you're the first (or second) person that mentioned anti semitism over here." I am referring to criticism of Israel in general, not necessarily this set of comments in this article.
Forced to live as slaves? You again show how much you don't know about the situation. About "them living their own land", you're welcome to read "about the British Mandate in Palestine, and the Palestinian Diaspora, to inform yourself more. About the checkpoints, well I guess that it would be better if they were allowed to just bring explosives and contraband into Israel like they did before the checkpoints were installed. Also the Israelis have to get their stuff checked to get into malls and public places. Nobody bitches about it." I think you are the one that needs to refresh your history. Mentioning the british mandate in palestine does not support your point in anyway. The palestinians are native to the land, and just because some country draws up plans half a world away to give a piece of land away doesn't relinquish the palestinians' right to the territory. The checkpoints i mentioned are to traverse within palestinian territories, so your argument about "smuggling weapons into Israel" is moot. It is deplorable that you are mentioning Palestinian strip searches by IDF forces within their own communities to Israelis having to check their belongings in at a mall and then mention that "nobody bitches about that". The fact that Israelis even HAVE a mall to go to speaks volumes about the apartheid that currently exists.
"You may also remember those DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED representatives of Hamas openly calling for the destruction of Israel, brainwashing children into hating Jews (not just Israelis, but also Jews), and using those peace negotiations to rearm themselves." This does not address the fact that the Israeli UN ambassador thinks of President Carter as a bigot simply for meeting with the leaders of the opposition. It makes you wonder how dedicated Israel is to the peace process and a two-state solution when they build additional illegal (according to UN resolutions) settlements during the "peace process" and then refuses to meet with the only other party that needs to be involved. If you believe actions speak louder than words then Jews are clearly more "brainwashed" than anyone else, as they obviously consider themselves to be above all others-- the ideology itself attests to this fact as everybody else is merely disposable and ceases to exist, whereas the Jews are Gods "chosen people" and so their oppression of lesser people like the palestinian muslims is not only necessary, it is acceptable.
"Yes I remember. How it was collective punishment and illegal? Israel provided them with their own Israeli fuel and electricity, and decided to stop providing it. Since when it's an obligation? What you should read about, is about how Israel kept sending fuel for the Palestinian Hospitals generators and not cause a humanitarian crisis, but it kept being stolen by Hamas to use it to shoot missiles into Israel. That was a really smart move from them. They should keep shooting themselves in the foot. It works amazingly well." These are not my deductions, they are based on the opinion of the international community and human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch and International Red Cross: "Cutting electricity to Gaza would amount to collective punishment, which is expressly forbidden under international humanitarian law. According to this principle, a person cannot be punished for a crime that they have not personally committed. The International Committee of the Red Cross has clarified in its authoritative commentary of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that "[t]he concept of collective punishment must be understood in the broadest sense: it covers not only legal sentences but sanctions and harassment of any sort..."
"You may also remember all the proofs that Iran is still developing the nuclear program, and Israel showing the truth to USA. " Sources?? If you have "proof" that Iran is still developing a nuclear weapon then that would make you the only person in America that does so. I have a feeling your "proof" looks something like the "proof" we saw from war-profiteers during the buildup to the Iraq war, and now thousands of Americans and thousands more Iraqis have lost their lives-- when will you take a step back and think about the consequences to these actions? (rhetorical question, you don't need to post a response)
"You may remember that "peace" activist burning Israeli and American flags, and helping smuggle weapons into the Palestinian territories. You may also remember knowing that the D9 driver was unable to see her. You may also remember her friends taking pics of the event instead of rescuing her, and later the Palestinian leaders saying that it was a shame that they couldn't tape it. You may also remember a lot of those pics being (amazingly bad) photoshopped." So which one was it? was she killed or were the pictures photoshopped? are you just emptying your bag of sorry excuses and hope I pick one that will satisfy me? She was killed, and it was with the knowledge of the driver of the vehicle. Secondly, can you show me where it is against the law to burn a flag? I didn't know that one can be sentenced to death for burning a flag, it is sad that you even mention this as a justification for the death of a human being. What if you were to be killed for disagreeing with someones policies? would that be acceptable too? As for your comment about her friends taking pictures instead of rescuing her, how does this change the fact that she was run over by a Israeli bulldozer? Are you saying it is perfectly acceptable for people to go around killing others, and that the burden of responsibility lies on the shoulders of onlookers, who should be ready to rescue others at a moments notice rather than on the person perpetrating the crime? Good reasoning.
"'Do you think people WANT to live miserable lives?'. According to the Hamas actions, yes. It helps them with the publicity. If they weren't in misery, nobody would give a crap about them. They know that by being that way, the media is aimed towards them." Is this a joke? You think an entire population of people that has been ignored by the international community for 60 years, continues to live in misery and poverty (According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, 68 per cent of the population in Gaza lives below the poverty line.) just so that they can invoke sympathy from some foreigner half a world away?? Anyone who reads your comment will immediately recognize the fallacy in your claims. I think you are the one that has been brainwashed, and not the rest of us.
"'Have you seen the decline in quality of life once you go from Israel to Palestinian territories?" Yes. Again, they should stop using their own pipes to build rockets, and their hospital's fuel to power those rockets." This is another joke of a argument -- that the reason palestine is in disarray is because of mismanaged handling of funds.. incredible. US aid to WORLDWIDE humanitarian projects is $7 billion annually, whereas US gives $30 billion in annual aid only to the Israeli MILITARY alone (one of the most powerful militaries in the world -- and hardly a nation that needs the money). The quality of life that the citizens of Israel enjoy has little to do with israeli citizens using out of pocket expenses to build their infrastructure, and has alot to do with foreign companies investing in Israel. Nobody wants to invest in palestine because they know that as soon as they build something, Israel will come and blow it up.
In ending, i ask you to ask yourself: if you were given two children-- one israeli and one palestinian and asked the question: Whose life is more valuable? what would you answer. Instead of chiding back without hesitation, think about the objective facts-- life for israelis is clearly leagues ahead in terms of comfort, medical care, schooling, and opportunities when compared to life for palestinians. If you believe that palestinians are wrongly indoctrinating their children with false claims of israeli behavior, then prove them wrong; why doesn't israel fund schools, parks, hospitals, and other community centers and projects that show the palestinian populace that Israel has their best interests in mind? The palestinians hear claims of israeli justice and desires for peace, but the current population of palestinians has GROWN UP in apartheid and knows no escape. I can guarantee you they would throw hamas out instantly as soon as prospects for a peaceful life are the alternative.- urik88, on 05/02/2008, -2/+1“I am referring to criticism of Israel in general, not necessarily this set of comments in this article.”
But it’s the same in most articles.
“Mentioning the british mandate in palestine does not support your point in anyway. The palestinians are native to the land, and just because some country draws up plans half a world away to give a piece of land away doesn't relinquish the palestinians' right to the territory.”
If we’re talking about being native to the land, you should read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel
You should also know that before the British Mandate, the Ottoman Empire ruled the area, not the Palestinians, and anyway, there have always been Jews in Israel.
But you are right that they have the right to have a place. Too bad that they refused the land when offered in 1948 in the partition plan, and the same later. “Jerusalem or nothing!”
“The checkpoints i mentioned are to traverse within palestinian territories, so your argument about "smuggling weapons into Israel" is moot.”
Now I’m confused. Didn’t Israel leave Gaza in the 2005?
They left Gaza, and can have checkpoints in Gaza at the same time?
“It is deplorable that you are mentioning Palestinian strip searches by IDF forces within their own communities to Israelis having to check their belongings in at a mall and then mention that "nobody bitches about that". The fact that Israelis even HAVE a mall to go to speaks volumes about the apartheid that currently exists.”
How’s the Israelis having a mall an apartheid?
“This does not address the fact that the Israeli UN ambassador thinks of President Carter as a bigot simply for meeting with the leaders of the opposition. It makes you wonder how dedicated Israel is to the peace process and a two-state solution when they build additional illegal (according to UN resolutions) settlements during the "peace process" and then refuses to meet with the only other party that needs to be involved.”
I’m not saying that he’s right, but don’t forget that they are the leaders of a terrorist organization.
But you’re right in that part. He indeed was wrong.
“If you believe actions speak louder than words then Jews are clearly more "brainwashed" than anyone else, as they obviously consider themselves to be above all others-- the ideology itself attests to this fact as everybody else is merely disposable and ceases to exist, whereas the Jews are Gods "chosen people" and so their oppression of lesser people like the palestinian muslims is not only necessary, it is acceptable.”
Wait. Weren’t we talking about Israel, and not about the Jews? Or are those Anti Semitism accusations that you despise true?
Anyway, I don’t see how that part is connected to the topic, and I truly don’t see myself as a “God’s chosen man”, when in fact I’m Agnostic.
I also don’t see how the religion is connected to the Palestinian oppression.
“These are not my deductions, they are based on the opinion of the international community and human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch and International Red Cross: "Cutting electricity to Gaza would amount to collective punishment, which is expressly forbidden under international humanitarian law. According to this principle, a person cannot be punished for a crime that they have not personally committed. The International Committee of the Red Cross has clarified in its authoritative commentary of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that "[t]he concept of collective punishment must be understood in the broadest sense: it covers not only legal sentences but sanctions and harassment of any sort..."”
But they weren’t being punished! Israel (for some weird reason) provided them with electricity and other things, and then decided to stop providing it.
If you every day give some cents to a hobo on the street, and suddenly one day you decide to stop giving them to him, then you’re punishing him? No. Specially if he tries to kill you when you hand him the cents.
“"You may also remember all the proofs that Iran is still developing the nuclear program, and Israel showing the truth to USA. " Sources?? If you have "proof" that Iran is still developing a nuclear weapon then that would make you the only person in America that does so. I have a feeling your "proof" looks something like the "proof" we saw from war-profiteers during the buildup to the Iraq war, and now thousands of Americans and thousands more Iraqis have lost their lives-- when will you take a step back and think about the consequences to these actions? (rhetorical question, you don't need to post a response)”
I was talking about the nuclear program.
Iran indeed halted their nuclear weapons program. But Iran is still enriching Uranium, which serves to create a nuclear weapon.
That, added to the extremism of Ahmadinejad and will to see Israel gone, doesn’t sound too calming for me.
You’re also encouraged to read this:
http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/04/07/pr ...
“So which one was it? was she killed or were the pictures photoshopped? are you just emptying your bag of sorry excuses and hope I pick one that will satisfy me? She was killed, and it was with the knowledge of the driver of the vehicle. Secondly, can you show me where it is against the law to burn a flag? I didn't know that one can be sentenced to death for burning a flag, it is sad that you even mention this as a justification for the death of a human being. What if you were to be killed for disagreeing with someones policies? would that be acceptable too? As for your comment about her friends taking pictures instead of rescuing her, how does this change the fact that she was run over by a Israeli bulldozer? Are you saying it is perfectly acceptable for people to go around killing others, and that the burden of responsibility lies on the shoulders of onlookers, who should be ready to rescue others at a moments notice rather than on the person perpetrating the crime? Good reasoning.”
She was killed, and the pictures were photoshopped to make it look like she was trying to defend a house, when in fact she was trying to defend a weapons smuggling tunnel.
Do you have any proof that the driver of the vehicle was aware of her?
The CNN article says that “Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her.”.
I’m saying that it’s unacceptable that she was used as a tool by her people to spread propaganda.
They also should be accused of negligence in my opinion.
“You think an entire population of people that has been ignored by the international community for 60 years, continues to live in misery and poverty (According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, 68 per cent of the population in Gaza lives below the poverty line.) just so that they can invoke sympathy from some foreigner half a world away?? Anyone who reads your comment will immediately recognize the fallacy in your claims. I think you are the one that has been brainwashed, and not the rest of us.”
Exactly. Just like Hamas tried to hit with Qassams the very same power station that gives them energy, the hospital that treats Palestinians along with Israelis, and the trucks that send them fuel.
Just like Arafat spent millions of dollars of aid on houses in France, and Hamas spends the aid in weapons and steals the fuel for the hospitals.
If they actually want their sons to explode in the middle of a bus, what makes you think that my statement is ridiculous?
That sympathy creates millions of dollars in aid, and the media watching over Israel’s actions.
So yeah I think that my statement is pretty much not a fallacy.
Their government isn’t interested in its people’s good, but on the Palestinian control over Jerusalem and getting the Israelis out of the Israel’s territory.
And as I said in other posts, I immigrated to Israel at the age of 12, and my parents at the age of 30 – 40. How we could have been brainwashed when we immigrated and had no contact with Israel until my parents were adults?
“This is another joke of a argument -- that the reason palestine is in disarray is because of mismanaged handling of funds.. incredible. US aid to WORLDWIDE humanitarian projects is $7 billion annually, whereas US gives $30 billion in annual aid only to the Israeli MILITARY alone (one of the most powerful militaries in the world -- and hardly a nation that needs the money). The quality of life that the citizens of Israel enjoy has little to do with israeli citizens using out of pocket expenses to build their infrastructure, and has alot to do with foreign companies investing in Israel. Nobody wants to invest in palestine because they know that as soon as they build something, Israel will come and blow it up.”
You seem to ignore the fact that the US didn’t back Israel until 1967, and Israel survived with the help of its own work (farms anyone? Innovative water management methods patents? A huge Pomelo industry?).
“
In ending, i ask you to ask yourself: if you were given two children-- one israeli and one palestinian and asked the question: Whose life is more valuable? what would you answer. Instead of chiding back without hesitation, think about the objective facts-- life for israelis is clearly leagues ahead in terms of comfort, medical care, schooling, and opportunities when compared to life for palestinians. If you believe that palestinians are wrongly indoctrinating their children with false claims of israeli behavior, then prove them wrong; why doesn't israel fund schools, parks, hospitals, and other community centers and projects that show the palestinian populace that Israel has their best interests in mind? The palestinians hear claims of israeli justice and desires for peace, but the current population of palestinians has GROWN UP in apartheid and knows no escape. I can guarantee you they would throw hamas out instantly as soon as prospects for a peaceful life are the alternative.”
If I couldn’t know the background of the kids, then I’d pick the Israeli one.
If I could know the kids deeply, then I’d pick the most good hearted one.
And Israel has been providing them with food, electricity, water, and fuel for years. The Israeli leftists are the 1st ones to criticize Israel when something bad happens to the Palestinians.
Israel treats the very same Hamas members in their hospitals. If that doesn’t show the interests of Israel to the Palestinians, then what do you want them to do?
Geez, a lot of the other western nations would have “erased” the Palestinians long a time ago.
Just imagine it. For years, Mexico shoots missiles into USA, and sends terrorists to blow themselves in buses”.
I can already see the nukes flying towards Mexico City.
- urik88, on 05/02/2008, -2/+1“I am referring to criticism of Israel in general, not necessarily this set of comments in this article.”
- NonLeftistDiggr, on 04/29/2008, -3/+1I know this isnt' the best text editor ever, but I am having a really hard time getting to the main point of your post, or what text is even yours
- monsieurginger, on 04/28/2008, -17/+9Everybody read secondary reports of the incident. Before blaming Israel every time a Palestinian dies, wait till the investigation is over.
- 911ArtStudent, on 04/28/2008, -7/+16Whose investigation - the IDF or a human rights organization?
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -10/+13Nobody is "blaming Israel," we're putting it on the IOF, which is accurate and proper.
The investigation is done by the IOF, and that has proven to be untrustworthy. Going by how these events have played out umpteen times in the past, the information we have now is very accurate, and what will come from the IOF is spin and lying justifications after the fact.
Make no mistake, this is a war crime, an atrocity, and you are an anti-Israel apologist for anti-Israel war criminals.- monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -5/+10"you are an anti-Israel apologist for anti-Israel war criminals."
That doesn't make sense.- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6Yes it does, because this part of the IOF that carries out these atrocities is anti-Israel, and you are an anti-Israel apologist for them.
Speak college-level English much? - monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -4/+7How am I anti-Israel?
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -4/+6I'll explain it then. See what has happened was from the IOF - which is not Israel, but a faction therein. Much like the Neocons in America. By Supporting what the IOF(Neocons) have done, is against what is good and noble within Israel(America) - and therefor is against - or "anti" Israeli (American).
- Beveridge89, on 04/29/2008, -3/+5 For disagreeing with neocog and suggesting we should read secondary reports, I think.
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -4/+6I'll explain it then. See what has happened was from the IOF - which is not Israel, but a faction therein. Much like the Neocons in America. By Supporting what the IOF(Neocons) have done, is against what is good and noble within Israel(America) - and therefor is against - or "anti" Israeli (American).
- Tangaroa, on 04/29/2008, -7/+8mons: neocognitism does not know how to argue, so he just calls everyone all the insults he has rightly been called.
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+7Both you and Tangaroa are anti-Israel for your views and anti-peace, pro-Likud/Shas beliefs. Tangaroa is a proven rabid antisemite, many times over.
- monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -3/+4How am pro-Likud/Shas, when i lived in israel i was all Labor. Kibbutznik. Just because I said that the first reports aren't accurate, doesn't mean i'm pro likud or anti israel. Try to be more open minded. I even read haaretz, a liberal israeli newspaper. Just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean they are your arch enemies. When someone disagrees with you, you try to demonize and insult them because of your own insecurities about your argument.
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6Yes it does, because this part of the IOF that carries out these atrocities is anti-Israel, and you are an anti-Israel apologist for them.
- monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -8/+8"the information we have now is very accurate" check this link out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXy6q4cH4pw&feature ...- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -9/+7The last place I would rely on for information is ultra-Zionist CNN, and I'm not surprised they'd pull something like that in an effort to discredit Hezbollah.
- monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -5/+8Which sources do you rely on? "The Protocols" perhaps?
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6No, that'd be you, since you're the anti-Israel antisemite.
- monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -3/+4Again, how am I anti-Israel, anti-semite? I'm Israeli French American. LIberal Israeli. I don't hate any arabs. I have talked to arabs on campus in the US and in Israel. Stop making assumptions about those who disagree with you. I think you have so many prejudices against jews and israelis. You have to confront all these beliefs and assumptions you have about the world. Be a skeptic, scientist. If Judaism has taught me anything, is that you should challenge everything you read, even Tanakh.
- monsieurginger, on 04/29/2008, -5/+10"you are an anti-Israel apologist for anti-Israel war criminals."
- mikehosek, on 04/29/2008, -6/+14This type of terrorist activity occurs almost everyday.
- slvrbullet87, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6I am sorry i forgot that only the israeli military has hit civilians with a tank shell. Bad aim happens, it sucks when a shell hits civilians, but that is part of war.
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -6/+5I am sorry i forgot that only the Hamas military has hit civilians with a qassam rocket. Bad aim happens, it sucks when a rocket hits civilians, but that is part of war.
- Beveridge89, on 04/29/2008, -3/+8I like moral equivalence. Here, though, the difference is bad aim for Hamas is when they don't hit civilians.
- DreadPirate, on 04/30/2008, -5/+2Neo - I love how you conveniently forgot about the frequent and numerous incidents where Hamas has specifically targeted civilians. For pete's sake, they targeted an elementary school on the second day of classes! But of course you have to gloss over that, and only focus on every single thing Israel has done wrong, either on purpose or by accident.
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -6/+5I am sorry i forgot that only the Hamas military has hit civilians with a qassam rocket. Bad aim happens, it sucks when a rocket hits civilians, but that is part of war.
- slvrbullet87, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6I am sorry i forgot that only the israeli military has hit civilians with a tank shell. Bad aim happens, it sucks when a shell hits civilians, but that is part of war.
- deformation, on 04/29/2008, -7/+12Every time they have an excuse, yes..they never kill civilians and their massive tanks and Air force is special that it gets auto deactivated in civilian areas. and the whole world should believe that and keep on blaming the "terrorists".
Zionist crimes against humanity overrides the Nazi crimes. keep whining on your dead grand grandfathers though.- urik88, on 04/30/2008, -3/+1"Zionist crimes against humanity overrides the Nazi crimes. keep whining on your dead grand grandfathers though."
And that's how you prove you "huge" knowledge of the situation.
- urik88, on 04/30/2008, -3/+1"Zionist crimes against humanity overrides the Nazi crimes. keep whining on your dead grand grandfathers though."
- yellowcakewalk, on 04/29/2008, -9/+14If we had a government and a United Nations with some balls, we'd send the Marines in to push the terrorists back behind their 1967 borders.
- Chaoticfist, on 04/29/2008, -7/+6While i agree Israel has to and has made some concessions in terms of territory. Remember in 1967 Israel was attacked. Israel fought off the invaders and took a fair chunk of land. Yes it received help from the West but thats not that point. Israel has every right to keep Jerusalem in my opinion. When you lose the war you do not decide what the enemy takes. You do not see Germany demanding territory from Poland lost during world war one and world war two.
- pintomp3, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6actually, israel is the one who struck first. it was an illegal preventive war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_war#Arab-I ...- foopirata, on 04/30/2008, -3/+3Nice try, but overtly simplistic. Why don't you tell the whole story?
"In May 1967, Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula, which had been stationed there since 1957 (following the 1956 Sinai invasion to allow for a free Suez Canal), to provide a peace-keeping buffer zone. In reaction to Israeli-Syrian tensions, Egypt amassed 1000 tanks and 100,000 soldiers on the border, closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, and called for unified Arab action against Israel.[4] In response, on June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack[5] against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[6][7][8]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
- foopirata, on 04/30/2008, -3/+3Nice try, but overtly simplistic. Why don't you tell the whole story?
- pintomp3, on 04/29/2008, -8/+6actually, israel is the one who struck first. it was an illegal preventive war:
- NonLeftistDiggr, on 04/29/2008, -4/+8That's probably the only case diggers wouldn't bitch about military force being used
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -7/+3That and forcibly deporting you and your ugly clan to their ancestral homeland.
- Chaoticfist, on 04/29/2008, -7/+6While i agree Israel has to and has made some concessions in terms of territory. Remember in 1967 Israel was attacked. Israel fought off the invaders and took a fair chunk of land. Yes it received help from the West but thats not that point. Israel has every right to keep Jerusalem in my opinion. When you lose the war you do not decide what the enemy takes. You do not see Germany demanding territory from Poland lost during world war one and world war two.
- nwoantibody, on 04/29/2008, -13/+3Nazis massacre the Jews. ---> WW2 ends. Jews suffer from PTSD and see crazy ***** everywhere.
Israel is created by PTSD people who then react violently to everything and everyone around themselves. In the end, Israel will nuke Iran and then... THEN, every Jew will shake in his boots. Because they'll know the world will be so disgusted that they will be hunted once again, only that this time, the taboo of victimization will be forever gone.
If only influencial Israelis would take the power away from the military zionists... People here in North America aren't smart, when they see 200$ oil, they start starving because Iran got nuked. They'll be hunting Jews...- urik88, on 04/30/2008, -2/+1"Israel is created by PTSD people who then react violently to everything and everyone around themselves."
That's why Israel only started one war, which was 100% provoked by Egypt?
"In the end, Israel will nuke Iran"
Israel has nukes for decades, and they still never used them (unlike Iran, which is planning to use them as soon as they get them).
- urik88, on 04/30/2008, -2/+1"Israel is created by PTSD people who then react violently to everything and everyone around themselves."
- zolthar, on 04/29/2008, -12/+10There are different and contradicting versions of the incident.
The explosion might be a result of a subsequent explosion from the bombs carried by a Palestinian militant who was hit while staying too close to the family.
The IDF takes 48 hours to investigate and publish it's version. Until then, you have one sided propaganda, and it's clients who are happy to take it as the ultimate source and pass their usual verdict.- Kizilbash, on 04/29/2008, -6/+9Hahaha, until one side comes up with an official sounding report you have one sided propaganda? And what do we have afterward, pray tell?
- zolthar, on 04/29/2008, -5/+8Like many previous incidents, which have overblown the news with staged proof, The IDF suddenly presents evidence that disproves it all, but you propaganda drones immediately disappear until the next story.
- 911ArtStudent, on 04/29/2008, -4/+6Until the IDF publishes its version you have one-sided propaganda? LOL
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+3You know maybe those suicide bombers were just trying to ride the bus when their vests malfunctioned? There's no way to prove otherwise. It's all Israelis fault for their habit of spitting on Arabs, which sets off the vest.
Perhaps that Arab guy thought he had grabbed a machine gun full of blanks, and he just planned to frighten the yeshiva boys (worth 1000 Arabs), but when he realized he was killing them he felt awful and took his own life. It's all Israel's fault for giving him the wrong ammo.
Possibly all the Qassams carry notes of surrender and rewritten Hamas charters, only the notes get burned up every time by the Israeli bomb squad so they keep sending more, in hopes that the note will make it through. It's all Israel's fault.
FEAR
UNCERTAINTY
DECEPTION
zolthar, an employee of ultra-Zionist FUD PR, Inc.
- Kizilbash, on 04/29/2008, -6/+9Hahaha, until one side comes up with an official sounding report you have one sided propaganda? And what do we have afterward, pray tell?
- ZiggyDaZigster, on 04/29/2008, -8/+1"Honey, could you pass the eggs? Which by the way, this bacon is amazing!" "Thanks Hun! I used this new blend which allows me to....." *! Explosion !* ~His Mind~> "What was in though eggs?"
- Falldog, on 04/29/2008, -5/+9I don't think enough of you realize that this incident, and ones like it in the past (and ones likely to occur again) are not the fault of one side or the other. This sort of tragedy rests on the shoulder of both Israel and the Palestinians.
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -6/+10I think there are quite a few people that see it that way. Where a lot of the difference comes is who blinks first. For myself I think it should be Israel for the basic reason they are the ones that hold the power. I am sure others will have the opposite views for also valid reasons. These issues are fairly easy to solve, it is those few on both sides that see it as exclusively the other guys fault.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -7/+9Waiting2awake: the flaw in your approach is double, in my opinion: first, Hamas has time and again declared that a "blink", as you define it, by Israel will only mean that their (Hamas) method is working, so it will be pursued further. And second: they have done it before. Israel left Gaza and instead of starting to build a country, Hamas started bombarding Israel in the same day.
Not saying Israel is clear of any responsibility, far from it, just showing why your justification for Israel "blinking" is not really based on facts but perhaps on a gut feeling love for the "underdog".- 911ArtStudent, on 04/29/2008, -7/+6Hamas repeatedly offered a truce that was conditional on Israel ending its lawless extrajudicial murders. Israel repeatedly refused a truce. It wanted to keep on killing.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -7/+6You have no concept of a "truce" in the tactical planning of Hamas, do you? You would do well in listening to what they say instead of listening to what you wish they would be saying.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -7/+9Waiting2awake: the flaw in your approach is double, in my opinion: first, Hamas has time and again declared that a "blink", as you define it, by Israel will only mean that their (Hamas) method is working, so it will be pursued further. And second: they have done it before. Israel left Gaza and instead of starting to build a country, Hamas started bombarding Israel in the same day.
- pintomp3, on 04/29/2008, -8/+3both sides are to blame, but it's hard to compare the actions of the occupier to the occupied.
- hadees, on 04/29/2008, -2/+3Gaza isn't occupied. But it is totally controlled by a terrorist group and over crowded which means Palestinian civilians are in the middle of Hamas as it trying and kill Israelis and Israel tries and stop Hamas.
- Waiting2awake, on 04/29/2008, -6/+10I think there are quite a few people that see it that way. Where a lot of the difference comes is who blinks first. For myself I think it should be Israel for the basic reason they are the ones that hold the power. I am sure others will have the opposite views for also valid reasons. These issues are fairly easy to solve, it is those few on both sides that see it as exclusively the other guys fault.
- mishmish48, on 04/29/2008, -10/+16For Palestinians, even dying is political. We cannot even die without somebody blaming us somewhere along the way. I appreciate the comments here that see Israel at fault for the occupation.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -7/+7Do you appreciate a commenter saying that yes, Israel is the occupying power and definitely not blameless, but that Hamas as a government bears the brunt of the blame on the appalling conditions they keep their population in, the better to stir them as needed and the better to keep their power base? Or is it all Israel's fault?
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -7/+7Do you appreciate a commenter saying that yes, Israel is the occupying power and definitely not blameless, but that Hamas as a government bears the brunt of the blame on the appalling conditions they keep their population in, the better to stir them as needed and the better to keep their power base? Or is it all Israel's fault?
- laserblazer, on 04/29/2008, -5/+5Israel has a Final Solution for the so-called Palestinians (a name that is strictly a Zionist construct). Don't believe me? Read the words of Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the father of Revisionist Zionism. He states clearly that a 'promulgated threat' (his words) can be used to subjugate one's own people.
- pintomp3, on 04/29/2008, -4/+7why is it that state-sponsored terrorism is somehow less evil than other forms of terrorism? for every israeli child that's killed, 8 palestinian children die. both sides are wrong here, but one side commits murder on a much larger scale with the backing of billions of US tax payer dollars.
- evilcaptain, on 04/29/2008, -1/+10Both Israel and Palestine need to learn to catch up with reality. It doesn't help that American nutjobs add billions to fuel the fire.
Peace could be easy, I mean, how hard is it NOT to kill each other? Any other argument is bollox.
Land doesn't belong to anyone, you get to take care of it for a while; It was never promised by god to anyone.
Also, please do more research before posting; This topic has more media spin than any other. Many of these opinions I have read above are just MSM BS regurgitated.
Please think for yourselves :)- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -4/+10While on the subject of "please do more research before posting", the main argument for Israel's right to exist is not "the land was given to us by G'd". THAT would be bollocks if that's all we would base ourselves on.
The main argument for Israel's right to exist is that it is the result of a partition plan sanctioned by the UN, agreed by the Jewish inhabitants of the area and repulsed by the Arab ones. That, together with the huge amount of archeologic and historical (Flavius Josephus, anyone?) evidence pointing to the existance of ancient Israel place modern Israel where it is as a homeland for the Jews in modern times.
Otherwise, I completely agree with you.- evilcaptain, on 04/29/2008, -2/+7Just to clarify.
Do you think that the land that your ancestors lived on somehow belongs to you, no matter how long you were away?
I realise there is no going back. Israel is a mostly beautiful place and the people are nice, but I've heard too many times the "Gods children" hypothesis and I see an obvious connection between it and the conflict.- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -3/+10"Do you think that the land that your ancestors lived on somehow belongs to you, no matter how long you were away?" - not necessarily, but I do believe that the conditions at the time (British mandate over land conquered from the Ottoman Empire, increased Jewish presence from the 1200's on) helped bring forth the materialization of the Zionist objective, which is a Jewish homeland in the site of the ancient Jewish homeland.
I fully believe that in the spirit of the '47 partition plan there should be two states for two people and that the Palestinians are entitled to self-determination and achievement of their purpose in life, just as Israel.
In the sense of "G'd's children", c'mon, we are all G'd's children, in the sense that we are all the same thing. If the Bible says that G'd promised that land to the Jews, to me, is quite immaterial - it was probably good back there and then, but lots have happened since, and Israel is here to stay. The direction now is forward - how do we get the Palestinians to build a state instead of trying to destroy another.- evilcaptain, on 04/29/2008, -5/+5You are in a 'catch 22'
You fence in and reduce the economy and the freedoms in Palestine to reduce the threat from radicalized extremists. Hamas was voted in directly because of those restrictions.
Simple solution; make it a level playing field for everyone involved. Stop the massive American subsidy. Treat everyone in both States as equal. Allow fiscal responsibility to fall on the Israeli and Palestinian peoples shoulders instead of government control and subsidy.
Stop letting past grievances live on like a virus, polluting your Children's future and causing needless distress to hundreds of millions planet wide.
While we're talking pipe dreams, Accountability! - foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -3/+7Accountability...interesting. You asking it from the Israeli side? Where a fierce press question every single move of the government, and human rights organizations hold the defense establishment in check?
There is no Catch-22. The Palestinians agree to previous accords, fight against terror and stop incitement - Israel breaks up the road blocks, evacuates most of the settlements. Rocket fire stops, incursions stop. It's all cause and effect. No catch at all. - evilcaptain, on 04/29/2008, -4/+4Accountability of all government to the people, ALL of the people, everywhere.
You seem the under the impression that the Mainstream Media holds the decision makers to task. This could not be further from the truth.
You should try to go by what people do and not what they say. Hitler probably sounded reasonable, Stalin too if you go by their words.
Terrible things have happened, are happening and the media is complicit. - foopirata, on 04/30/2008, -2/+4"Accountability of all government to the people, ALL of the people, everywhere."
Ah, sorry - I thought we were talking tangibles, not pies in the sky.
Just for your information - the media in Israel holds the decision makers much to task. Rabin, for example, in his first term as PM, was downed in large part by the media participation in the "U$10k account scandal". In a small country like Israel, where everyone knows someone that knows everything, the media is a very strong catalyst of public opinion - and the government pays heed.
"You should try to go by what people do and not what they say. " - I guess that then we can go by the large peace camp movement in Israel, which although very disheartened by the Palestinian actions, still exists in more than the peace-at-all-costs diehards. Like the popular support that led to Israel leaving Lebanon, and the support to Sderot with people spending weekends there and shopping there. That's what people do around here. - evilcaptain, on 04/30/2008, -2/+2Pipe dream means "Pie in the sky"
It's what the media doesn't report that causes all the problems.
The population of any country, by and large, usually seize upon any advantage they can against corruption. If they don't know it's happening, they are powerless.
There are Jewish Israelis who are just as entitled to their land as any Israeli, yet even they are being hounded by large landowners; they are denied basic amenities and are threatened and Isolated by the very government that is supposed to protect them. All people are equal, just some are more equal than others and people are too busy checking their chickpeas for bugs, to care. :( - foopirata, on 05/01/2008, -1/+3"The population of any country, by and large, usually seize upon any advantage they can against corruption." - but, if by your own declaration, they may not know what's happening because "the media doesn't report it"...how would that go? And I believe there are enough examples of corrupt government throutghout the world that would prove your premise just...not right.
"There are Jewish Israelis who are just as entitled to their land as any Israeli, yet even they are being hounded by large landowners; they are denied basic amenities and are threatened and Isolated by the very government that is supposed to protect them." - ok, you'll have to enlighten me on that one. Who are they? Who are the "large landowners" ? Are you aware that all land in Israel is owned by the government and only leased to they owners? - evilcaptain, on 05/01/2008, -0/+2If you don't notice the world news organizations are partisan in their journalism, you are a fool.
Here you go siting what people have said instead of going by their actions.
It's obvious your media never told you, so you claim it doesn't exist. Although I cannot remember details (its been a while) the group of people I'm talking about have lived on that land for 2000 years or more, once were nomads and have a bigger claim of the land than even your shoddy rhetoric allows the Israelis. They are being marginalized by pushy building contractors and insider dealing.
One rule for the wealthy Israelis and one for everyone else.
If you really want to find those responsible, follow the money. It leads you back to America and more Idiots who believe that It really is a Holy land and they can bring forth the second coming of Christ if the Jews return home.
As for more proof of Israels narcissism, the fences blocking Palestine land from Palestinians was recently declared illegal in a ruling by the International Court of Justice.; yet Israeli courts overruled in favour of this disgusting breech of human rights.
When you look upon the horrific recent past of the Jewish people and see that they are repeating those horrendous acts upon another people, starvation, isolation, fear and restriction. I get frustrated by that lack of basic understanding by the common people of both States, which, is in great part, exacerbated by shoddy journalism.
- evilcaptain, on 04/29/2008, -5/+5You are in a 'catch 22'
- neocognitism, on 04/29/2008, -8/+4foobutt, I'm so glad you appreciate the authority of UN resolutions, and that Israel should abide by them all.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -3/+10"Do you think that the land that your ancestors lived on somehow belongs to you, no matter how long you were away?" - not necessarily, but I do believe that the conditions at the time (British mandate over land conquered from the Ottoman Empire, increased Jewish presence from the 1200's on) helped bring forth the materialization of the Zionist objective, which is a Jewish homeland in the site of the ancient Jewish homeland.
- shekissesfrogs, on 05/01/2008, -2/+3on the contrary, of all of Isreals attempts to find evidence of David in Jerusalem they have failed. The current project is the Judaism of the territory, which means destruction of all of the layers of history and antiquity above the layer they are looking for proof at.
Others history matters not to them one bit, and they are selling it. One place you can find it is ebay. This has been condemned. In addition to that, There is hardly any DNA relation to the original Jews. Most of the jews there are Ashkenazi and Russia. The palestinians have actually remained in the area through time and many are the actual children of the original jews that later converted to Islam and christianity. To call them just Arabs disrespects their history. Their appearance makes it obvious they are separate people.
DNA connects them to the area according to the human genome project. They could make a claim to be the original jews but that is a most distastful thought to them.
- evilcaptain, on 04/29/2008, -2/+7Just to clarify.
- shekissesfrogs, on 05/01/2008, -2/+3When you say that it is both Isreal and Palestinians, that does not take into account that Isreal is the oppressor, with massive state of the art artillery and technology.
A parent of a big teenage boy and a small child, would not expect the small child to carry as much responsibility as the larger to not incite retaliation. These people are oppressed and have been living under unimaginable hardship and collective punishment for a long time, their frustration is justified. Isreale needs to get those tanks and bulldozers out of palestinan territory, stop dropping bombs on them, flattening their homes with the occupants inside, pumping thier human ***** and dumping their garbage on them. Isreale doesn't even allow them to have phones unless they sell them, they have to buy those minutes and the prices are bout 3 times the price, in addition Isreal goes in and bull dozes the cell phone company antennaes down. They don't do this in the Illegal Settlement neighborhoods - you know, the colonizers?- evilcaptain, on 05/01/2008, -0/+1I don't think we are in disagreement.
I was pointing out that most Israelis don' realise just what it is they are responsible for, and the Palestinians don't appreciate that disassociation.
- evilcaptain, on 05/01/2008, -0/+1I don't think we are in disagreement.
- foopirata, on 04/29/2008, -4/+10While on the subject of "please do more research before posting", the main argument for Israel's right to exist is not "the land was given to us by G'd". THAT would be bollocks if that's all we would base ourselves on.
