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- phnx0221, on 01/27/2008, -11/+109"It was my decision," Turner said. "I made it. Now I have to live with the fact I see someone's eyes screaming at me after I shot them."
Reading that made my stomach turn. I can't imagine what it must be like to live with those images playing over and over in your head for the rest of your life. It's no wonder that these soldiers are returning home with PTSD, with large numbers committing suicide.
That is horrible. I can't believe that there are people who are encouraging the deaths of innocent people. I can't believe that when we begin military operations in these countries, the first places we go for are those inhabited by civilians. I can't believe that we aren't taking more care to ensure that if and when the use of military action is called for, we aren't training the soldiers to be more careful with their violence. Violence should ONLY be used as a last resort, and should be planned carefully at that, so that you don't have the disgustingly encouraged killing of innocent people.
Everyone in this war is expendable, it seems, they are disposable. From the innocent victims who lose their lives, to the soldiers who are sent there multiple times and are encouraged for various reasons to be suspicious of everyone, to think that everyone they encounter is a potential terrorist. When these soldiers come home, we completely ignore their needs, their physical, emotional, and psychological wounds, and leave them to get themselves back into a society that ignores them.
Then we have the civilian victims, the families that are destroyed, the livelihoods that are taken from them, the people who are sent to military prison camps for years without trial, without charge, and seemingly, without hope for release.
All this based on what? Lies. Corruption. Placement. Security of the superpower. Strategic resources, and money.
We say, over and over, that we have to hold these people accountable. And we do. But, it takes more then just words to do so. It takes constant pandering, it takes constant pressure of our politicians, it takes constant discussion to get people inspired to do the right thing, and to be ***** pissed off at atrocities that are committed in their (our!) names. There are protests and gatherings organized for January 31st by World Can't Wait. Check out the the link, and go if there is one in your community. http://www.worldcantwait.net/
We need to support the people in congress who are pushing for accountability. Kucinich is out of the Presidential race, but he's still up for re-election in Congress, as is Wexler. Support them. Find out who is running for election, or re-election in Congress in November, and look at who has stances that match your values. And if you don't know, call them and find out, and then get the word out and vote for them.
We not only need a president who will get us out of this war (which may or may not happen), but we need a congress that will work to adequately represent their constituencies, who will stop blindly funding this war. But most of all, WE, as United States citizens, MUST get active in our politics, along with our criticisms of it. - notque, on 01/27/2008, -21/+109The invasion and occupation of Iraq is the supreme war crime of aggression as listed by Nuremberg.
- inactive, on 01/27/2008, -30/+102This should surprise no one if you look at who is in command.
- GrandmaSheila, on 01/27/2008, -15/+74Gotcha, "*****" on the Haditha massacres, the targeting of public gatherings, like weddings, for strafing, the bombing of entire villages, or the routine house to house pillage of neighborhoods. Gunning down carloads of civilians doesn't count. Blackwater is just a crowd of good ol' boy opportunists. Torturing "prisoners" at Abu Ghraib, or the installation of torture in general as national policy is just peachy too. The use of depleted uranium weapons, which assuredly impacts civilians, and our own people also, that's just Buck Rogers cool weaponry.
Iraq veterans for some time now have been returning with the same horrific testimony about being ordered to commit war crimes, but you call them "*****", and liars.
I thought you neocons were all about "supporting the troops". Obviously, that dries up when they go public with the truth. - SeethisPass, on 01/27/2008, -9/+63My best advice to the world, Don't go to war. Don't ever start a war. Don't use aggression to justify war. Don't join an army lead by the insane.
- inactive, on 01/27/2008, -25/+68Have you heard of Yvonne Ridley? She was a Sunday Express UK newspaper journalist who was captured by the Taliban during the early phases of the Afghanistan invasion. She was on an undercover assignment when she was captured. But guess what. She was eventually released by the Taliban and roughly 2 years later she converted to Islam. Was this because of their "brutal treatment"? Rather it was the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. They treated her with honour and respect despite her repeatedly spitting at them and abusing them.
I bet you didn't hear that in the mainstream media. Think I'm joking? See her official website: http://yvonneridley.org/index.php
Also check her out in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvonne_Ridley - inactive, on 01/27/2008, -23/+64I've been deployed to Iraq three times in this war. I think I would have encountered some of this at least once. I didn't.
- Groovemaster, on 01/27/2008, -19/+58I agree 100%. ***** the irrational "support the troops" meme. I support people who have the balls to think for themselves.
Any cause that requires you to unquestioningly obey an easily corrupted authority is not a cause worth pursuing. - Groovemaster, on 01/27/2008, -11/+49Soldiers are just as much in control of their own actions as anyone else.
The fact that they chose to remain in total subservience to their owners is proof that they have as little concern for human life as those who issue the orders to kill innocent people.
Personally, I'd rather be jailed for disobeying immoral, murderous orders and keep my conscience and integrity intact than spinelessly and gutlessly submit to corrupt authority. - corpuscollossus, on 01/27/2008, -6/+43Oh look, it's Vietnam
- robbh66, on 01/27/2008, -11/+44Here's a more useful wikipedia link regarding her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
- phnx0221, on 01/27/2008, -8/+41There is a quote from Chomsky that I love.
He says, "What does it mean if somebody asks you, Do you support the people in Iowa? Can you say, Yes, I support them, or No, I don't support them? It's not even a question. It doesn't mean anything. That's the point. The point of public relations slogans like "Support our troops" is that they don't mean anything. They mean as much as whether you support the people in Iowa. Of course, there was an issue. The issue was, Do you support our policy? But you don't want people to think about the issue." - Groovemaster, on 01/27/2008, -3/+35He didn't make a mistake at all.
The mission was never to "bring democracy" to Iraq. That was just the excuse given to the gullible, easily led American people in order to get them to eagerly agree to have the majority of their tax dollars spent on an unnecessary, illegal, and immoral war.
The Iraq war is, and always has been, about empire building and bringing profits to the military-industrial complex, and in that respect it has been a massive success for the corrupt businessmen who have infiltrated every level of the US government. - AbbyRoad, on 01/27/2008, -29/+60This has really just been the nature of modern warfare. You can't blame the soldiers this is the position they are put in. An interesting note about warfare in general since World War II is that 90% of the casualties are civillian...
- RomanticStorm, on 01/27/2008, -5/+33I'm sure you already know that this conflict is not the first 'illegal' war that America has engaged...My Lai? Grenada?
- byronne, on 01/27/2008, -2/+28Thus like the testimony given by captured Nazis at the Nuremberg Trials absolves them of responsibility? They were, after all, just 'following orders'.
We (the US) are creating wars to ensure superiority and dominance. Have done so since the close of WWII. There is no conflict here other than we invaded another country. - understudy, on 01/27/2008, -6/+32Anyone who attaches -tards to a word instantly loses all respect and credibility.
_ - Lobstermagnet5, on 01/27/2008, -9/+33I personally know two marines who have served two deployments in Iraq each, and they both have said that killing civilians is commonplace. I don't know if it's orders coming from the top, but soldiers who do kill innocent Iraqis are not disciplined.
Please don't cry ***** just because you support the war. Weather you agree with the war or not, this is a serious issue and it's actually happening. - inactive, on 01/27/2008, -3/+26And the principle players are mostly the same then and now.
- h3lx, on 01/27/2008, -1/+23I took that oath, I never aim in on anything I didn't intend to kill, never killed anyone who didn't deserve to die. Lots of folks aren't so lucky they can say that and you can bet your ass the killing of ambient personnel weighs heavy on their hearts. We aren't mindless indescriminate killing machines void of morals and immune to the horror. Decisions are made where every choice is engaging an enemy threaded into the civillian population. It's going to happen and it's going to be tragic, the only courses are to either continue down this seeming endless spiral or simply get the ***** out. The latter I believe would save over 100,000 lives and bring over 2,000,000 people back home, the former will ultimately destroy this nation.
- Zenas, on 01/27/2008, -3/+26That's male cow dung. Military personnel swear an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the Military Code forbids obedience to an illegal order. Even German soldiers during WWII were court martialed for killing innocent civilians, including Jews. Get a clue.
- AriaStar, on 01/27/2008, -9/+31I saw my dad die. He died from a gunshot to the head by his own hand. I don't know if I could live if I were the one to pull the trigger on someone else. I'd go the way of my dad.
- RobotCitizen, on 01/27/2008, -5/+26NeoCon support for the troops only applies to when they are shipping out, not when they come back.
- inactive, on 01/27/2008, -5/+25"This has really just been the nature of modern warfare." AbbyRoad, this war should be different. According to the administration we are there to bring democracy to the people of Iraq. We are not there to overthrow their governemnt, we did that four years ago.
If our mission is to provide security so Democracy can flourish and what we are actually doing is to kill civilians, wouldn't it appear that we are working at cross purposes? Isn't this obviously futile?
It is all so ridiculous and horrible because the real reason we are there is that the ***** monkeyboy won't admit he made a mistake. - Crotchmonster, on 01/27/2008, -7/+27I've only been in two years (USAF, AD), and all this is laughable. It is drilled into your head so many times what is a legal order, and what isn't, there should be no doubt in the mind of any competent person. YOU DO NOT KILL NON-COMBATANTS!! They put their weapon down, they are a non-combatant, they have no weapon, they are a non-combatant, simple as that. Your CO can't tell you to go kill someone just for the lulz of it, this is total BS. You can't play the stress card either because that's just the easy way out, it was probably just a mistake, and you'd rather shoot someone you think is gonna shoot you, regardless of if they have a means to do it or not. No one wants to die.
- phnx0221, on 01/27/2008, -12/+32Wow, thanks for that link Zecchetti. I remember hearing something about her when she was captured, but unsurprisingly didn't hear anything more, at least not that I can recall. Very interesting story.
- TastyBaconTreat, on 01/27/2008, -18/+38Exactly, I was there too. It doesn't mention this guy's rank. I'm not going to believe what some dip ***** private has to say. It's like some cashier from Taco Bell saying that he and everyone else spits in the food because one of his managers laughed at it once so it's safe to jump to the conclusion that everyone up to the CEO wants you to spit in people's food.
We spent hours upon hours on the laws of war class before we went over there and everyone going over there knows the difference between right and wrong. WE ARE TAUGHT BY ARMY LAWYERS TO REFUSE ANY ORDERS THAT ARE UNLAWFUL!!!!
It actually frustrates some guys that we spend so much time in the classroom when we could be out learning useful stuff like First Aid.
I'm very anti-war but this guy in the article is just a dip *****.
There is a reason this is on some ***** local news. Buried for retarded digg members always looking for a conspiracy. - AriaStar, on 01/27/2008, -1/+21Thanks. Enough time's past, and I've got awesome people in my life who wouldn't be here otherwise. Gotta look for the good that happens because of the bad. :)
- phnx0221, on 01/27/2008, -6/+26Wow. I'm sorry that such a ***** up situation caused such strife in your family. Really...my condolences.
- mutiger, on 01/27/2008, -5/+23Wow. Msm ran this? Did hell just freeze over?
- ChristPissed, on 01/27/2008, -0/+16You have a valid point. Remember how zionist Henry Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as "dumb, stupid animals to be used" as pawns for foreign policy ( http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger ).
- corpuscollossus, on 01/27/2008, -2/+18Well, let's see: you were entrenched in an unwinnable position in Vietnam, and you're entrenched in an unwinnable position in Iraq. You were fighting an obscure guerrilla force in both. You rely on military might to achieve political ends in Iraq, just as you did in Vietnam. The costs of Vietnam were massively understated, just as Iraq has been. Your forces have been implicated in numerous cases of torture, human rights abuse and war crimes in both, and the civilian cost is so high that it's almost impossible to quantify. In both, the presidency claimed that the troops would stand down as the locals gained strength, which happened in neither war. Communism was the old terrorism. LBJ used identical tactics as bush has to silence critics.
Perhaps the gaps are in your understanding of history. - Dundasbro, on 01/27/2008, -8/+24Let's be fair, military personell are conditioned to completely disregard the moral implications of their actions and just follow orders. A good soldier just follows orders, and they are driven away from individual thoughts and actions and are moved towards the mentality that one is just a member of the squad, not an individual. It is one of the reasons why hair is shaved and uniforms are worn, to remove a layer of individuality from the soldier.
- buckrogers1965, on 01/27/2008, -3/+18No. US soldiers are given ethics courses and are instructed on the Geneva convention. We are only required to obey lawful orders.
- theoceanmusic, on 01/27/2008, -8/+23Anyone who has a friend that served in Iraq knows about this...sad thing is that is alot of folks.
- inactive, on 01/27/2008, -34/+48This is why I don't support the troops. Why should I support a bunch of people who voluntarily signed up to go fight in an illegal war and then commit war crimes when they're there? ***** them.
- Fizban140, on 01/27/2008, -1/+14You are told to follow orders, but you are also told to not follow orders that seem obviously morally wrong (it is worded better though) so there is some choice.
- RobotCitizen, on 01/27/2008, -6/+18Wrong, friendo. She was held for 11 days. She converted 2 years later.
- orxor, on 01/27/2008, -9/+21Honor is not killing innocent people in an illegal war, laying down your weapons for a good cause, not fighting for evil just because you were ordered to do so and facing whatever consequences may come as a result of your actions. Honor is NOT arbitrarily and thoughtlessly following orders that you believe to be wrong and if you believe them to be right, you're part of the problem.
- buildbyflying, on 01/27/2008, -18/+30***** them? ***** you. I hate the war as much as you do. But there are a lot of reasons why people serve in the military -- honor being one of them. So how many soldiers do you know and talk to? And you probably think they're all idiots and stone cold killers? A lot of them are kids with chips on their shoulders. kinda like the one you're carrying around...
- coheedcollapse, on 01/27/2008, -5/+17I met a guy on the PSN that was over there and he said as a result he can sleep only 3 hours a night at most. It's scary to hear what goes on over there. It really is.
- leftyslament, on 01/27/2008, -1/+12 Yes, the anti war protesters really affected U.S. soldiers half a world away. I really hope you're being sarcastic. The inherent flaw in your logic, besides the obvious, is the fact that you think we have any business invading another country in the first place. Vietnam was completely unjustified. The people of Vietnam *wanted* to be communist, end of story. There was no way to stop that, short of killing every last Vietnamese communist. Not that we had any business trying to stop communism. The same applies to the war in Iraq. Winnable or not, we should never have invaded in the first place.
- ddigby, on 01/27/2008, -5/+16"Now, it is morally ambiguous to wrap yourself in the flag and to wear those ribbons. And it borders on moral cowardice. I don’t mean to sound stern; well, yes I do, but what does the Nuremberg declaration say? There’s no superior order that can cancel your conscience. Nations will be judged by the standard of the individual. Look, the President makes choices. The Congress makes choices. The Chief of Staff makes choices. The officers make choices. All those choices percolate down to the individual trooper with his finger on the trigger. The individual private with his thumb on the button that drops the bomb. If that trigger doesn’t get pulled, if that button doesn’t get pushed, all those other choices vanish as if they never were. They’re meaningless. So what is the critical choice? What is the one we’ve got to think about and get to? And, friends, if that trigger gets pulled–if that button gets pushed, and that dropped bomb falls–and you say I support the troops, you’re an accomplice. I don’t want to be an accomplice; do you?
And I don’t want to dehumanize anyone. I don’t want to take away anybody’s humanity. Humans are able to make moral decisions–moral, ethical decisions. What do we tell the trooper who pulls the trigger, or the soldier who turns the wheel that releases oil into the Persian Gulf, that they’re not responsible–just following orders, just doing their duty, have no choice–bypassing them, making them a part of the machine, we deny them their humanity, their responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. Look, I’ve been a soldier. I don’t want any moral loophole. I need to take personal responsibility for my actions. And if we don’t learn how to do this, we’re going to keep on going to war again, and again, and again."
-Bruce "Utah" Phillips - ColoradoCNC, on 01/27/2008, -15/+26Utter BS. Are there some soldiers in Iraq who acting disgustingly? Without a doubt. But for this...person...to claim that it is government policy is absolutely insane. As a person with a 200+ year military history in my family, not to mention several friends currently serving in both Iraq and Afghanistan, I can't help but be filled with disgust by such comments. I don't care what one's political views are (liberal independent, personally), buying into such blatant fabricrations does a huge dishonor to the men and women who are serving in the name of the US.
Disagree with the politicians all you like, but to spread such lies about the brave men and women who are willing to put their lives on the line, even for an ill-advised conflict like Iraq, is just disgusting. - DesertDude, on 01/27/2008, -7/+17"Iraq veterans say that war crimes are encouraged by command"
So they were just "following orders", right? - qwertydvorak, on 01/27/2008, -5/+14from wiki article: "Ridley has been married three times. Her first husband was Daoud Zaaroura, a former Palestine Liberation Organization officer. Zaaroura was a PLO colonel when Ridley met him in Cyprus, where she was working on an assignment for the Newcastle-based Sunday Sun. They had one son who was born in 1995.[1] Her third husband was Iraqi-born businessman, Ilan Roni Hermosh[2], to whom she was married until 1999."
seems like she was well on the road to islam way before she was captured. - trollhunter, on 01/27/2008, -9/+18Honor? HONOR?? *****, where is the honor? In blindly following orders? In killing? In invading another country for reasons based on lies and manipulation? In defence of the homeland?
Defending what? How many Iraqi insurgents were in America when they signed up?
"Kids with chips on their shoulders" shouldn't be given guns... - inactive, on 01/27/2008, -8/+17If debunked, show the links. Simple enough?
- chillfaktor, on 01/27/2008, -1/+10Its the game of responsibility. Same happened in WWII. Same happened with apartheid in south africa. Same is happening now in iraq. Watch the movie "In My Country" (and maybe you'll find out what ubuntu really means)
- inactive, on 01/27/2008, -3/+11If you were given those type of commands, wouldn't you be going to the congress or senate or whatever you Americans do rather than an anti-war group? That seems like looking to preach to the choir and avoid tough questions, so im going to take this story with skepticism until he does the right thing with it.
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