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58 Comments
- dkapuchino, on 06/16/2008, -3/+12This can't be false palestinian propaganda.. It isn't on the front page yet.
- foopirata, on 06/16/2008, -5/+13http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/critic ...
It would hardly be the first (documented) time. - bluto36, on 06/16/2008, -8/+16too bad this is just another false Pali Propaganda try
- dkapuchino, on 06/16/2008, -4/+11Pallywood, google it up.
- inactive, on 06/16/2008, -10/+14And, of course, this story appears nowhere except on Palestinian propaganda sites. Now there's a surprise. Buried as just more propaganda from LadyK's good friends in Hamas.
- bluto36, on 06/17/2008, -4/+8yes the Jooooooooooos need to admit they are the ones responsible for the spontaneous explosion of young Muslims everywhere.
/puke barf. the joooooos are the worst genocide'ers in the history of the world.
palis are the fastest growing population in the world and all this time i thought the joooooos are supposed to be good at what they do - Carthagefield, on 06/18/2008, -0/+4The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. --George Orwell
- dkapuchino, on 06/17/2008, -3/+7Hey caferrell, A good friend of mine is a secular Israeli and served with Arab Israelis in the IDF and as police volunteers.
I had many conversations with him about the army. He says the first thing they tought them in basic training when they gave them guns, were rules of engagement, and how to recognize an unlawful command. "Firing on unarmed civilians that pose no threat" was given as an example. They were then told that no matter what, they are to refuse unlawful orders from their commanders.
Israelis actually have very much confidence in their morality. It is often reiterated on both the media, and in everyday conversations - it is the Israeli morals that differentiate them from their savage neighbors.
You are right on one thing - Israeli soldiers aren't sacraficing themselves to bring peace, they're sacraficing themselves to protect the Israeli women and children from the Hamas suicide bombers and those who fire Qassam rockets into Israeli towns. - dkapuchino, on 06/16/2008, -11/+15This is complete *****. Israel has one of the most restrictive rules of engagement in the world.
A border is a border. One must protect it, and use force to prevent anyone from passing the border. You first warn, they you fire in the air, and if they keep on coming, you fire towards the legs. That's how it works. Forcing through a border is far from "Peaceful".
The last thing anyone protecting a border needs is to have a "Peaceful" protestor cross the border, keep on going, "Peacefully", reach a town with women and children, "Peacefully" force his way into a school, and then not so peacefully, blow himself up. - urik88, on 06/17/2008, -2/+6Nah. It's just you deficient Zionist brain *eyesroll* .
- inactive, on 06/17/2008, -8/+12You are. You openly support radical Islamic groups who have the stated purpose of murdering every Jew on the planet and wiping Israel from the face of the Earth. You don't see any of us calling for the extermination of every Muslim on the planet. You don't see any of us celebrating when a suicide bomber detonates them self on a school bus killing dozens of children. That's you and the terrorists that you openly support.
Why is this even a question for you? Your prejudices have always been more than obvious and your attachment to radical Islamic terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah have never been a secret. There's absolutely no doubt in the mind of any rational person who has seen your postings that you are likely the single most prejudiced person on Digg. - foopirata, on 06/17/2008, -3/+7I didn't hear any "decent human beings who have at least some sense of humanitarian justice" when the buses were exploding in Israel. Had they done something then, perhaps they'd have a valid voice now, or, gasp!, the whole situation would have been avoided.
Get off your high horse, cause you're looking silly there wearing your underwear on your head. - foopirata, on 06/16/2008, -10/+12Hey, no insulting dogs!
You're thinking hyenas - running in packs and living on left-overs. - foopirata, on 06/16/2008, -6/+8Excuse me, but who's talking? I can't hear anything but the muffled echoes of an excrement filled 'jora'.
If you want to refuse facts that guarded fences and borders are there for a reason, do it at your own peril.
And I wish you a long life, so that you may see Israel and the Jewish people prosper and progress, while being consumed by your own hate and jealousy. - inactive, on 06/16/2008, -11/+13No, when Hamas murders women and children they do it with malice and forethought and the full intention of murdering women and children. When the Israelis kill women and children it's because the cowards in Hamas are hiding behind them firing on the Israelis. That's how you tell the difference between a professional military organization like the IDF and a bunch of murdering thugs like Hamas.
- inactive, on 06/16/2008, -11/+13Yep. And it looks like she brought at least one of her bigoted buddies with her. Typical. Dogs tend to run in packs.
- Carthagefield, on 06/17/2008, -4/+5Good. So then we have firmly established that IDF malpractice against Palestinians, who are often innocent of any wrong doing, is widespread and not "isolated", whether it goes unpunished or not. At last we agree on something.
- shekissesfrogs, on 06/17/2008, -7/+8If you can't live with the truth, then brainwash yourself, en mass if need be.
The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions.
Experiments have attempted to quantify this hypothetical drive. Some of these have examined how beliefs often change to match behavior when beliefs and behavior are in conflict. - foopirata, on 06/16/2008, -9/+11Hey, I have an idea - go to any guarded border in the world and try to escalate it. See what comes flying in your direction.
Oh, and btw - at 01:08...if anyone with a shot leg had it handled like that, believe me, you'd be hearing some screams. - inactive, on 06/16/2008, -8/+11Just Google Palestinian propaganda. That way we won't have to deal with another terrorist apologist.
- Carthagefield, on 06/17/2008, -6/+7"I guess your "anecdotal evidence" would in most cases probably fall under "suspect not stopping" or "collateral damage". In some very isolated cases there have been soldiers that did not follow orders"
Isolated? More like common practice. Please, don't treat me, or anyone else on this forum as an ignorant fool.
"Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army
In shocking testimonies that reveal abductions, beatings and torture, Israeli soldiers confess the horror they have visited on Hebron
The dark-haired 22-year-old in black T-shirt, blue jeans and red Crocs is understandably hesitant as he sits at a picnic table in the incongruous setting of a beauty spot somewhere in Israel. We know his name and if we used it he would face a criminal investigation and a probable prison sentence.
The birds are singing as he describes in detail some of what he did and saw others do as an enlisted soldier in Hebron. And they are certainly criminal: the incidents in which Palestinian vehicles are stopped for no good reason, the windows smashed and the occupants beaten up for talking back – for saying, for example, they are on the way to hospital; the theft of tobacco from a Palestinian shopkeeper who is then beaten "to a pulp" when he complains; the throwing of stun grenades through the windows of mosques as people prayed. And worse.
The young man left the army only at the end of last year, and his decision to speak is part of a concerted effort to expose the moral price paid by young Israeli conscripts in what is probably the most problematic posting there is in the occupied territories. Not least because Hebron is the only Palestinian city whose centre is directly controlled by the military, 24/7, to protect the notably hardline Jewish settlers there. He says firmly that he now regrets what repeatedly took place during his tour of duty.
But his frequent, if nervous, grins and giggles occasionally show just a hint of the bravado he might have displayed if boasting of his exploits to his mates in a bar. Repeatedly he turns to the older former soldier who has persuaded him to speak to us, and says as if seeking reassurance: "You know how it is in Hebron."
The older ex-soldier is Yehuda Shaul, who does indeed "know how it is in Hebron", having served in the city in a combat unit at the peak of the intifada, and is a founder of Shovrim Shtika, or Breaking the Silence, which will publish tomorrow the disturbing testimonies of 39 Israelis – including this young man – who served in the army in Hebron between 2005 and 2007. They cover a range of experiences, from anger and powerlessness in the face of often violent abuse of Arabs by hardline Jewish settlers, through petty harassment by soldiers, to soldiers beating up Palestinian residents without provocation, looting homes and shops, and opening fire on unarmed demonstrators.
The maltreatment of civilians under occupation is common to many armies in the world – including Britain's, from Northern Ireland to Iraq.
But, paradoxically, few if any countries apart from Israel have an NGO like Breaking the Silence, which seeks – through the experiences of the soldiers themselves – as its website puts it "to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" in the occupied territories.
The Israeli public was given an unflattering glimpse of military life in Hebron this year when a young lieutenant in the Kfir Brigade called Yaakov Gigi was given a 15-month jail sentence for taking five soldiers with him to hijack a Palestinian taxi, conduct what the Israeli media called a "rampage" in which one of the soldiers shot and wounded a Palestinian civilian who just happened to be in the wrong place, and then tried to lie his way out of it.
In a confessional interview with the Israeli Channel Two investigative programme Uvda, Gigi, who had previously been in many ways a model soldier, talked of "losing the human condition" in Hebron. Asked what he meant, he replied: "To lose the human condition is to become an animal."
The Israeli military did not prosecute the soldier who had fired on the Palestinian, as opposed to Gigi. But the military insists "that the events that occurred within the Kfir Brigade are highly unusual".
But as the 22-year-old soldier, also in the Kfir Brigade, confirms in his testimony to Breaking the Silence, it seems that the event may not have been exceptional. Certainly, our interview tells us, he was "many times" in groups that commandeered taxis, seated the driver in the back, and told him to direct them to places "where they hate the Jews" in order to "make a balagan" – Hebrew for "big mess".
Then there is the inter- clan Palestinian fight: "We were told to go over there and find out what was happening. Our [platoon] commander was a bit screwed in the head. So anyway, we would locate houses, and he'd tell us: 'OK, anyone you see armed with stones or whatever, I don't care what – shoot.' Everyone would think it's the clan fight..." Did the company commander know? "No one knew. Platoon's private initiative, these actions."
Did you hit them? "Sure, not just them. Anyone who came close ... Particularly legs and arms. Some people also sustained abdominal hits ... I think at some point they realised it was soldiers, but they were not sure. Because they could not believe soldiers would do this, you know...
...In its introduction to the testimonies, Breaking the Silence says: "The soldiers' determination to fulfil their mission yields tragic results: the proper-normative becomes despicable, the inconceivable becomes routine ... [The] testimonies are to illustrate the manner in which they are swept into the brutal reality reigning on the ground, a reality whereby the lives of many thousands of Palestinian families are at the questionable mercy of youths. Hebron turns a focused, flagrant lens at the reality to which Israel's young representatives are constantly sent."
A force for justice
Breaking the Silence was formed four years ago by a group of ex-soldiers, most of whom had served in Israel Defence Forces combat units in Hebron. Many of the soldiers do reserve duty in the military each year. It has collected some 500 testimonies from former soldiers who served in the West Bank and Gaza. Its first public exposure was with an exhibition of photographs by soldiers serving in Hebron and the organisation also runs regular tours of Hebron for Israeli students and diplomats. It receives funding from groups as diverse as the Jewish philanthropic Moriah Fund, the New Israel Fund, the British embassy in Tel Aviv and the EU." "
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas ... - dkapuchino, on 06/16/2008, -6/+7Ahh, I just love the smell of ***** in the morning.
The palestinians have been there for thousands of years?
They haven't even existed for more than 2 centuries, when they decided to get off their camels in Saudi arabia and jordan, and come search for jobs in Israel, jobs created by the Jewish zionist settlers, that decided to bring farming into these lands.
In fact, Islam has only been around for about 1500 years. Jews have been living in these lands for over 3000 years. Historically documented and proven. - inactive, on 06/17/2008, -4/+5Still cant get anyone to ***** you I see, Bluto. Poor poor fat ugly little girl.
- dkapuchino, on 06/16/2008, -8/+9And the means to that "peaceful state" would be the complete annihalation of Jews, right?
Damn. Where did my grandmother store away her yellow star of david? I guess I better pull it out of storage. - Carthagefield, on 06/16/2008, -7/+8"This is complete *****. Israel has one of the most restrictive rules of engagement in the world."
Making a statement which you cannot prove does not add value to your argument. Even if it were true, there is a mass of anecdotal evidence indicating that the rules aren't being followed effectively on the ground. Unless of course, those rules include breaking Geneva Conventions and UN resolutions. Stop with the magical thinking and empty rhetoric and get real for once, eh? Jeez, I'm sick of these apologists who believe/wish that Israel can do no wrong. - foopirata, on 06/18/2008, -2/+3http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-45075/Palesti ...
"Although the Arabs of Palestine had been creating and developing a Palestinian identity for about 200 years, the idea that Palestinians form a distinct people is relatively recent. The Arabs living in Palestine had never had a separate state. Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by the Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century; at the same time, most saw themselves as part of the larger Arab or Muslim community. "
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-45065/Palesti ...
"After 1840 the reforms the sultan promulgated gradually took effect in Palestine. Increased security in the countryside and the Ottoman Land Law of 1858 encouraged the development of private property, agricultural production for the world market, the decline of tribal social organization, growth of the population, and the enrichment of the notable families. As the Ottomans extended the central government's new military, municipal, judicial, and educational systems to Palestine, the country also witnessed a marked increase in foreign settlements and colonies—French, Russian, and German. By far the most important, in spite of their initial numerical insignificance, were the Jewish agricultural settlements, which foreshadowed later Zionist endeavours to establish a Jewish national home and still later a Jewish state (Israel) in Palestine. The earliest of these settlements was founded by Russian Jews in 1882."
http://www.meforum.org/article/522
"It would seem reasonable to suppose that for the same reasons Arab Palestinians and other Middle East populations migrated from the less to the more attractive economies at the end of the twentieth century, they would have done the same during the early decades of the twentieth century. Two events distinguished the early years of twentieth-century Palestine from its Middle Eastern neighbors: 1) the immigration into Palestine of European Jews, accompanied by European capital and European technology, and 2) the creation of the British Mandatory Government in Palestine whose responsibilities included the economic development of Palestine. As a result of the mandate conferred by the League of Nations, British capital and British technology followed the British flag.
These two events generated a momentum of economic activity that produced in Palestine a standard of living previously unknown in the Middle East."
I guess you'll be removing that "report" now, or at least report yourself for talking with supposed authority about stuff you clearly know nothing about. - urik88, on 06/17/2008, -2/+4I forgot about the "/sarcasm" :.
- foopirata, on 06/17/2008, -8/+10"If you want to see bigots, you might look in the mirror. " - considering your own comments, it seems to me that we have a clear case of kettle. meet. pot.
"It is very hard to make the case for Israel's policies in the West Bank after taking the time to think honestly about what happens there." - no, actually, it is not. Once you filter the Pallywood and look at things as they are, you notice that, even according to Hamas, the barrier made suicide bombings inside Israel almost impossible. With that, it is saving Israeli AND Palestinian lives. That's a very strong case to be made. It is also easy to see that while the Palestinians throw tantrums because of what they consider their "holly city" (not mentioned in the Quran even once), Israelis are barred from the second most revered places in Judaism, in Hebron. It is also very easy to see that yes, the settlements are a sore in Israel's position, but that the Palestinians are not willing to settle for anything BUT whatever it is they want in that day. So pardon me if I don't eat up your cheap rhetoric.
"But you fellows immediately attack anyone who is even vaguely pro-Palestine." - like your "Lady" trying to throw me under a bus for pointing that people assaulting fences get shot?
"If you cannot make the argument for Palestine in your own thoughts and truly understand their position, then you are a bigot." - I guess that's why I made the case for a Palestinian state not once, not twice, but many times here on my comments on Digg. But I guess your selective reading/memory filters that out.
If you ever get down from your high horse and decide to actually engage into discussion about FACTS, let us know. - catcher6250, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Lolwut?
- catcher6250, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Rofl, what kind of peaceful protest is that?
The guy walks up to the Israeli border and starts throwing huge rocks at the wall trying to dismantle it and knock it down. If you were an IDF soldier, the only choice you have is to shoot the guy in the legs...
You want the IDF guy to come out in the open, walk up to the guy and peacefully persuade him to stop? Rofl, that ain't happening, then the protestor will just throw rocks at him.
And, overall, how the hell does this make the IDF look like the IOF???? The protestor is destroying Israel's wall. The IDF soldier shot him from Israeli territory... - inactive, on 06/17/2008, -8/+8Shut the ***** up, you lying piece of *****, herkle.
Reported. - inactive, on 06/17/2008, -10/+10"""Islam is a gutter religion"""
--- JCM & Herkle
"""""Actually there is no easy answer. The most humane way is to bring Democracy, freedom of religion, .... is to occupy their nations and take their children away from them so they can't teach this twisted ***** to any more future generations."""""
---- Jcm
""""Actually I think that them crazy Muslims are going to get themselves in some serious trouble. I do not think it is unreasonable to think that there is a good chance that eventually the West will completely destroy the Islamic world.""""
----- Jcm
"""We're at war with Islam right now ..."
--- Jcm
""""Their religion is inherently evil."""
--- Jcm
""""I feel like drawing a picture of allah and then pissing on it.""""
--- Jcm
"""grab a dictionary and then look up the definitions of "cult" and "religion" and then get back to me. keith, how is Islam supposed to be defeated without violence? """"
--- Jcm
"""...part of Islam's teachings is to lie to unbelievers about what they really think so unless you're good friends with these people you really don't know for sure what these people are thinking. """""
---- Jcm
WHO'S THE ***** BIGOT BITCH??? - dkapuchino, on 06/16/2008, -9/+10See the propaganda machine is working at full speed. Israeli soldiers would never fire at women and children intentionally. That's the palestinian terrorists.
- inactive, on 06/16/2008, -15/+15Definitely not the first time. There's a video on youtube of the IOF shooting a group of women and little girl protesters in their backs as they tried to run away from IOF bullets. Sick *****, the IOF.
- foopirata, on 06/17/2008, -7/+8The rules are very simple:
If your life is in danger, you must defend yourself.
If you identify suspect movement, shout for the suspect to stop. If the suspect won't, shout to stop or you'll open fire. If the suspect won't, shout to stop and fire in the air. If the suspect won't, shout to stop and fire to the legs. If the suspect won't, shout to stop and fire to mass center.
That's for the individual soldier. For weapon platforms the ROE are more elaborate, sometimes requiring the OK of a mission commander or a company commander.
In certain situations, soldiers and weapons systems are responsible for areas, in which any movement can be met with fatal force. In these cases those areas are clearly marked.
I guess your "anecdotal evidence" would in most cases probably fall under "suspect not stopping" or "collateral damage". In some very isolated cases there have been soldiers that did not follow orders, and to the best of my knowledge in those cases were military court found them guilty (and there's been those) the soldier has been punished.
Oh, and by the way "I'm sick of these apologists who believe/wish the Palestinians can do no wrong". - shekissesfrogs, on 06/17/2008, -9/+8When peple are subject to unfair treatment, extreme abuse and inhumane treatment, especially over long perods of time and then thier abusers deny their actions, refuse to acknowledge their collective pain and suffering, and blame the victims ideology because they don't magically become docile, or start to like you. It defies all logic that you can't understane this. They are perfectly natural reactions. How do feel avbout Halocaust denial. Do you feel like you want to get all warm and cuddly with Heimlick Himmer? t . You have created a vacuum, and they have swallowed pain and anger and there is a limit. to how much people can take.
The problem is that Israelis refuse to take responsibility for thier actions. - inactive, on 06/16/2008, -13/+13After looking at the title, I guessed that "Lady" K the bigoted Muslim was back. I was right!
- inactive, on 06/17/2008, -6/+4Where's your proof that Palestinians have "haven't even existed for more than 2 centuries."??
"""Saudi arabia and jordan, and come search for jobs in Israel, jobs created by the Jewish zionist settlers, that decided to bring farming into these lands."""
Proof??? (by the way, reported for being a racist Jewish Supremacist)
""""In fact, Islam has only been around for about 1500 years.""""
AND???? You may not be aware of this, but people existed long before religion was invented. Idiot. - inactive, on 06/17/2008, -6/+5You have to admit, she always manages to find a way to express herself that makes her look like a complete and total scumbag. "Lady" K, indeed. She's no lady, she's just another foul-mouthed cretin with delusions of adequacy.
- kemp34, on 06/17/2008, -9/+7It has been proven numerous times over the JCM is clearly bigoted against Islamic people. It is very funny whenever I see him call people bigots. It is very laughable.
- inactive, on 06/16/2008, -12/+10If you want to see bigots, you might look in the mirror.
At least in my case I will generally try to support the little guy. I also reflect on my thoughts and my motivations. I always try to review my positions from a different perspective.
It is very hard to make the case for Israel's policies in the West Bank after taking the time to think honestly about what happens there. But you fellows immediately attack anyone who is even vaguely pro-Palestine.
My friend, if you have no self-doubt, if you never look critically upon your own positions, if your ideas are formed by untouchable religious beliefs, then you are probably bigots. If you cannot make the argument for Palestine in your own thoughts and truly understand their position, then you are a bigot.
I guarantee that I can and have done that exercise for the Israeli argument, in fact, for years I made the same parrot-like argument that I read you fellows write all the time. But then I began to travel and to read and realized that most of the "facts" that I believed from the US MSM were simply not true. I found that the media from the rest of the world had a completely different picture. And I found that thinking Israelis also had a different picture.
The Likud position that you fellows defend is intellectually indefensible. You probably know that. - inactive, on 06/17/2008, -6/+5Stay classy, "Lady"K. Mutt.
- inactive, on 06/17/2008, -6/+5@kemp
Proof?
@ "Lady"K
Whatever you say, little Mr. "The Muslim Brotherhood is a peaceful organization". - inactive, on 06/17/2008, -6/+5More projecting from "Lady"K. We've all seen your picture, "Lady"K.
- inactive, on 06/16/2008, -9/+7I hope Israel does one day progress from the racist Jew-only hate-filled land-stealing terrorist apartheid State that it is into a peaceful country.
-
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