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175 Comments
- anidal, on 10/12/2007, -8/+73Islam does not ordain genital mutilation and the cutting of the clitoris and labia is forbidden. There was a hadith, I can't find the link to it though, in which Muhammad asked a woman not to mutilate her daughter so that "she may derive pleasure in matrimony". True , that there are certain weak (Da'eef) hadith that seem to condone it, however most scholars beleive these to be incorrect. (A weak hadith is one which cannot be directly linked to the Prophet through a chain of narrators).
Sadly, in less developed parts of the world where laws are rarely enforced, noone can stop idiots such as the dumbasses in Somalia from performing these despicable acts. I highly sympathise with Hirsi Ali for what she has been through, but she should understand that most of these acts are perpetrated by those who have little understanding of Islam and just follow what they have been taught traditionally.
Most parts of the more developed muslim world do not follow this archaic practice. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -14/+76As a Muslim, perhaps you can enlighten us. What did you dislike about the book? How is it rubbish?
- Prysorra, on 10/12/2007, -11/+65- You have not read the book.
- The image of Islam is tarnished most by those obsessed with its image.
Chew on that....
...then choke on it. - crillbilly, on 10/12/2007, -8/+60Seriously, why would some random woman make something up like this? Has the book even hit the NYT bestseller list? Here is someone trying to reach out and send a message to the world about how autroucious some can be based on religious beliefes, and it gets flamed by some douche bag. It's a story about her childhood, not about how horrible Muslims are. If we WERE to judge them like that, then you, sir, are a SHINING example.
- anidal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+44Sadly, the reason is that the majority of Muslims in those riots were uneducated fools (and I hate to say this). Violence is only permitted in Islam if the other party commits acts that could be construed as aggression. While Muslims have every right to get pissed off at the cartoons, killing and rioting over them was completely wrong.
The majority of 'Islamic' riots that I've seen involve protesting chanting, burning effigies and humorously enough, attacking a random McDonalds or KFC. None of these actions have any positive effects and in fact just cause more damage to the local economy. These people don't realize how utterly pointless and stupid their actions are. I mean honestly, what did we gain from the rioting over these cartoons and the killing of the dutch director except further international ridicule? - smackywentz, on 10/12/2007, -10/+47I would like to be enlightened as well
- Junkyarddawg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+38I've said it before, I'll probably say it again: Hirsi Ali is a real-world hero. You can not get much stronger or braver, nor face much greater adversity than she has. There are very few people I admire, but Hirsi Ali is one.
I think, however, that it is important to realize that she's a _real world_ hero, not a hollywood hero - she has flaws. For instance, the article glosses over things like why she left her post in Holland and emigrated (fallout from a scandal over that she lied about her background to get asylum in Holland), and although he didn't deserve to get murdered, Theo van Gogh was an abrasive racist *****.
I don't personally think that detracts from her greatness, or the importance of her work; it just means that she's an actual human, not a fictional construct. Humans have flaws. I just think people should be aware of this, because there *will* be a backlash against her in the US once she gets more known, and as a rule the US does not allow heroes to have flaws. - Liam76, on 10/12/2007, -10/+37@ anidal,
I will take your word that it isn't allowed in Islam (even though it is practiced primarily in muslim nations, and not just african ones).
So it is more offensive to islam to have someone draw an unflattering picture of mohommad, then to cut off women's genetalia in Islam's name. I would think any sane reasonable person would find the second more offensive, but it is th first that caused riots, destruction, deaths and calls for more deaths. Why do you think that is? - anidal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21The reason there is no fatwa against it is because this practice is extremely rare in the Middle East, where traditionally the seat of Islamic power lies.
Furthermore, the Islamic position towards towards genital mutilation is clear: cutting of the clitoris and labia is not allowed. Though an exact punishment is not given, it is clear from Hadith that mutilation is something that even the Prophet disallowed.
Islam is however quiet towards the practice of female circumcision: cutting of the small skin flap above the clitoris. Perhaps it is this silence that has been construed as a free reign towards the abuses you see in less educated African countries, where genital mutilation has been traditionally practiced since ancient egyptian times. - Paroparo, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27Genital mutilation is to Islam what "God hates fags!" people are to Christianity. Isn't really a part of it, but somewhat related, and people with negaive attitudes rarely care to make the distinction.
- anidal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Yes, most people use common sense, thats why it's rare.
Islam has been practiced for 1400 years, genital mutilation has been practiced for over 6000 (ancient egypt). Islam banned mutilations in its advent, but the traditions live on.
"No Islamic leader standing up to condemn this after 1400 years."
Muhammad himself outlawed it 1400 years ago, so I have no idea where you're coming from with this. Every educated person knows its wrong. Its in any book of Hadith if someone took the time to open one up. In other words, its perpetually condemned.
Hirsi Ali is brave, no doubt about that but believe me, the death threats have nothing to do with her stance on genital mutilation. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+30Anytime a muslim blows himself up, someone is quick to say "You are all racists. This action is against Islam!"
yet it keeps happening... in the name of islam. - Roger, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20=>"What other religion, besides Islam, practices this? "
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Christianity - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16@Punx
Actually, my GF is a 7th Day Adventist from Kenya. I asked her about the genital mutilation thing once and she told me it is a tribal thing. There are some members of her tribe that still do it in her home village and even then it's only practiced by the "rednecks" and elders of the tribe. They literally still have a village "witch doctor" and practice polygamy in her home village (village != city). From what I've gathered about Islam, it is not a polytheistic religion and certainly does not condone witch doctors.
The people who have moved out of the village and spread across the country/world practice all religions. Islam is not the prominent one from my understanding. In any case, I said all that just to make the point that yes, it is a tribal thing. - rnwen2750, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17The tradition of genital mutilation is deeply rooted in tribal traditions that go back to long before Islam was conceived. This is not a Muslim "thing", it is just something that some Muslims have opted to take into their culture. If anything, we should be more upset at how women are treated in many places in Africa. Their treatment (or mistreatment) is easily traceable back to tribal lines, NOT to Islam.
- Liam76, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19@ sfacets
it is against the odds she could get away from her oppressive family, it is against the odds for her to live in a western society where women are allowed to be educated, write books and critisize islam for things, that like ti or not, are done in Islam's name.
To all the people who say this is against Islam I ask why is there no fatwa against it? Why did people get more upset about a cartoon that wasn't flattering of islam than about people cutting off womens genetalia in the name of islam. - MudMan69, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11"Female circumcision" is designed to deny a woman pleasure during sexual activity. Male circumcision is not.
- mriegger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10The Economist wrote of the book:
"Mental illness, abortion, failed marriages, illicit affairs and differing interpretations of religion: much as she tries, the kind of problems that Ms Hirsi Ali describes in “Infidel” are all too human to be blamed entirely on Islam. Her book shows that her life, like those of other Muslims, is more complex than many people in the West may have realised. But the West's tendency to seek simplistic explanations is a weakness that Ms Hirsi Ali also shows she has been happy to exploit."
http://economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_RGGPNPT - VolatileWhimsy, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19It has been said numerous times that this is not something that is condoned by Islam, that it is more of a cultural thing. So please explain to me why the Imams had a conference on this and refuse to condem it, and only say that it is not written to do so? They took no hard line and refuse to do so.
So if it is cultural and not a religious, why did the Imams meet and are you saying these people from these cultures are pigs? Meh, I disagree, I think it is the radicals that are pigs mating with dogs.. kkthanx - katbytes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8This is sad, horrible and inhumane that this uncivilized form of torturous procedure happens to innocent girls in other nations. Somalian supermodel Iman Abdulmajid, David Bowie's wife is an activist as well as a victim of this crime; as well as Waris Dirie, another female model from Somalia who currently works as an advocate for the UN against genital mutilation or Female Genital Cutting (FGC). If it wasn't for the strength of woman survivors to come out tell their stories I think a majority of us would still be in the dark.
http://www.un.org/geninfo/faq/factsheets/FS3.HTM
http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/index-eng
http://www.4woman.gov/faq/fgc.htm
http://www.unicef.org/protection/index_genitalmutilation.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
http://www.who.int/topics/female_genital_mutilation/en/ - exodii, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9okay, jukin, you seem like an honest fellow so I will answer your questions:
first of all, I am not an islamic apologist, but I know quite a bit about Islam and have interacted with many muslims. The long and short of it is that a group of select individuals carries the faith too far, often distorting the basic concepts behind it, to do whatever they want. Extremists don't care which religion they come from, they just want to get their evil stuff done.
It has nothing to do with Islam, as you can easily verify by talking to a few muslims about it. They are generally very agreeable people, and all of them I've talked to condemn this kind of action. Also note that the prophet Mohammed explicity condemned this kind of mutilation. The 'muslims' that do this are perpetrators and are, in fact, the real sinners, in Islam's view. - Liam76, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@ rnwen2750
But oppression of women is supported by islam.
Any faith that teaches women should be covered, it is okay to marry four, compares them to uncovered meat, and advises beating them is pretty suited for someone who wants to oppress women.
No I know not all muslims believe this, but the overwhelming majority of the muslim world does, and it is even seen in some western muslims. - pintomp3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7perhaps you would like to back up that claim of "FGM is very much in fashion the muslim world" with some facts. here are some to the contrary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation
no one called you any names. you're entire premise is based on bigotry, not facts. - apetrie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8over90: Please don't start comparing male circumcision to female, and don't make this about it since its a completely different issue. There are plenty of points against male circumcision, so I'm not saying that is right or that it should be done, but the level of mutilation, not to mention the motivations behind the acts are uncomparable. One removes a piece of skin for the purpose of hygiene, valid or not, the other cuts out and mutilates sexual organs for the sake of removing the womans ability to experience sexual pleasure and keep her docile.
- Liam76, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I don't think she is saying that all muslims are bomb throwing FGM'ing ignorant savages. I think she is pointing out how the "moderate" ones cover up for the savage ones.
And I can't help but think it is true.
Look at Utah. When they break up a ring of "extremist mormons" (old fashion mormons, whatever)who have many wives and try to marry young women the loudest people condemning that group is the mormons. You can't see the difference between this and islam? moderate muslims should be embracing her and using her as an example of what is wrong with their extremist counterparts, but they don't. They close ranks and deny every ugly truth there is out there about the extremists. - AdmiralAdama, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12@dftpnkezln
i was not speculating about the commenter's religion, he stated it in previous discussion threads
As for my religion, I believe in the Lords of Kobol, of course. - exodii, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9It is not a muslim thing, for the umpteenth time. Nowhere in the middle east is this brutal tradition practiced. This is a tradition inherited from pre-islamic times, and many non-muslim tribes in africa still do it. I'm sorry to disappoint you but this is the utter truth.
- ozziegt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6volatile: Re-read my first post. I made it very clear that there is a difference between FGM, and that circumcision is an ambiguous term that can refer to many different practices. It just isn't accurate and shouldn't be used in this context. I also said that scholars will condemn FGM. You two different statements which were very clear and then accused me of saying FGM was OK.
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting
"Amongst all Muslim sects, including the Shi'ite tradition of Islam, the practice of female circumcision has never been to remove the clitoris. This form is outlawed by all leading Shi'ite Marjas that interpret Sharia traditions. The main form of surgery is to remove a small piece of the hood over the clitoris in order to increase sexual pleasure."
As far as scholars who condemn it. If you do a google search the top links are about how FGM isn't condoned in Islam so I don't understand why you think such links don't exist. Anyway here you go:
A scholar from Al-Azhar University in Egypt (one of the largest) condemns it:
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=77396
An international conference of Muslim scholars who say it's not compatible with Islam's teachings:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,452790,00.html
Christian and Muslim leaders in Ethiopia have been denouncing this practice since the late 90's:
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10098.htm - ozziegt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Volatile: don't try to muddle the two issues together to prove your point. And don't put words in my mouth. I said that cutting up a girl's genitals is wrong and you will find plenty of very large well known scholars who condemn it. My point is that "circumcision" is not really an accurate term for FGM.
Your argument that "God created women down there for a reason" applies just as much to men as women so it's not a very good argument either. - apetrie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Once again another man (I'm assuming) comparing male circumcision to female. Honestly how can you understand both procedures and think they are comparable? I'm not condoning male circumcision, but honestly it would have to involve removing the penis in order to be the same thing.
- Bridgetown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5iamcool.....male circumcision is NOT COMPARABLE.
you're an idiot if you think so - rnwen2750, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5If men were to be "circumsized" in the fashion of FGM, it would entail removing the entire head of the penis. Still think they are comparable now?
- rlh1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8They kill you for leaving Islam ?
Sounds like a tolerant religion to me.
If the Muslim congregation ignores the Imam, why have an Imam? It does seem to me that they follow fatwas. Rushdie was condemned to die for writing a book by an Ayatollah and has been under guard for a decade. Several translators around the world were stabbed to death for translating his book. I appears to me that what they say is followed... - morel42, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6
Islam isn't the problem... And I choke on those words as I speak them, but it's true.. It's the people who say they are following it's laws.. They use Islam as an excuse (as many other religions do, so it's not just them) to give themselves permission to do what they want.. They enforce there own backwards, barbaric ideas into something that they can comfort themselves by saying "it's god's will that I do such dispicable things".
I don't like Islam, I don't like any religions really. They're all just as bad.. It's not Islams fault what these people are doing.
It's their entire society.. Each generation is raised in more and more hatred, stuck in the victim trap, they blame everyone but themselves.. It's not there race, or the color of there skin,
I truely do believe that if all people's in the world who refused to give up these stone age practices were killed, or otherwise denied to ability to reproduce (thus removing the cycle of hate and blood) then the world in the long run would be better off..
They say that no society is better then another one.. *****, Western Society is better then this.. Sure we're really F'd up too.. Don't get me wrong.. We got the same issues, but we've gone beyond this..
Problem is, the very people that you would want to help would fight you.. It's quite sad really. - VolatileWhimsy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10I enjoy backing up my words, which so many fail to do...
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=qw1164191580485B221
""In Islam, circumcision is for men only," he told the conference. "From a religious point of view, I don't find anything that says that circumcision is a must (for women).""
Notice the wording, he is not saying it is wrong per say, but that it is not a must.
"Laws against the practice exist in many of the regions where it is practiced, but poor enforcement and publicity can hinder the laws, some human rights groups and women activists say. "
Islam is not so week that they can not police their own where they are the prevailing ruling party. The Imams keep tight control in these regions.
On the opposite side, because of awareness and people like us demanding a stop, (yes us and not them meaning them=from that region) that it is slowly being looked down upon. - rlh1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I do believe that the male circumcision still enables the man to enjoy sex.
The female does not after the more severe forms of FGM
It is done to control women.
Many are sewn up to prevent sex until marriage.
It's not the same thing.
Over the last 15 or 20 years I've read quite a few articles on this. This author, Hirsi Ali, is just one of many. - pintomp3, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8parokki: well, the "god hates fags" crown can point to passage in the bible to back up their claim. genital mutilation has no basis in islam, but is a carry over from ancient african tradition. that's why it doesn't really happen outside of africa.
- exodii, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Congrats, punx. You win the award for most incoherent rant of the day!
- IanPatterson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I just watched a film, Moolade, hat deals with this.
Im defiantly against this. - Liam76, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8@ anidal,
What?!?!
Well number one it does happen in the middle east. Number two fatwas are often issued against things in the west, so where the islamic seat of power is has no bearing on this conversation. the only conclusion possible for me to draw is that muslim leaders and most followers find a picture more offensive than people actually chopping women up in the name of islam.
I am confused by the haditha you are referencing saying female genital mutilation is a no-no. I am not well-versed enough in arabic, but couldn't there be different interpretations as to what parts are ok and which parts aren't okay to chop off (since female circumscion is ok)? I am pretty sure that the arabic language didn't have words for each specific part fo the female anatomy 1400 yrs ago (I am not trying to insult here, I don't know if any language was that specific on body parts). - Tiak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Anything people don't speak out frantically against and publicly condemn, they don't oppose... Maybe they just happen to see it as not an issue worth condemning... Let's say, Christians in New Guinea decided to start murdering people, should American Christians really feel the need to say, "No, seriously, we aren't part of this,we don't condone murder, murder is bad!" ?... I don't think so, it's be pretty pointless as they themselves don't practice this, and as such it is to be assumed they don't support it. Someone else is saying, Islam says suchandsuch, and they're saying "No, Islam does NOT say that." and you're outraged because they aren't saying, "No, Islam does NOT say that... And it's wrong..."?
PS: This woman was one of the better guests I've ever seen on Colbert... *looks for a link* - sa7ouri, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Surely there is some Ayatollah or Imam that can stand up now and condemn this practice. I think their silence condones it."
People tend to forget that Imams in most Muslim countries are NOT the government. And even if there are Imams who condemn it (which I'm sure there are, since all of my Muslim friends do condemn these practices), how do YOU expect to hear about it?
As a matter of fact, this specific practice is constantly discussed in the Arabic world on local media.
Just two weeks ago there was a long discussion on one of Egypt's most viewed talk shows about the practice and how to get rid of it. The real problem is that many African countries (Egypt included) where this practice still survives have a very high illiteracy rate. This is akin to people still believing in witches, and it all stems down from illiteracy. Educate the people, and this will go away. - apetrie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It is really selfish, unjust and disgusting of you to compare male circumcision with female. It belittles the torture women go through, and the mutilation they are left with for the rest of their lives. How dare you? Honestly!
There are plenty of good arguments against male circumcision, you really don't need to be so slimey as to latch on to a different and incomparable issue to win people over. It really makes me sick how every article that is related to or mentions female circumsion becomes a bitch fest about male circumcision in the comments and it seems so many guys just want to push it to the side to make it a male issue. When males are having their penises cut off to deny them sexual pleasure forever, then you can compare it. I'm against male circumcision, if I have a son I won't be having it done to him, still.. it is not the same thing and again I must say how incredibly selfish I think it is for you to make this about men. - VolatileWhimsy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6can you provide any facts of her being a "bad" person or doing this only for money?
Because surely you are not basing this on opnion alone.. Heck that would be like people saying all Muslims are extremist. Cause they sure as heck can't prove it, now can they? Can you? - rwarfield, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5WTF is up with these people. Religion or no you shouldn't be cutting pieces off others male or female.
- jukin, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9Point of order, Muslims don't need help demonizing themselves.
- VolatileWhimsy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'll agree that saying "FGM is fashionable" in any country is a bit of a stretch. But it does exist in these countries.
Scroll down you will find the links.
The only way we as humans can get this out and get it no longer practiced is to admit it and than shame the ones that do it. Otherwise you are walking around with blinders on and hurting Islam not making it stronger. - apetrie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3To expand also on that, male circumcision involves clipping a piece of skin off (again I am just justifying it) and female circumcision involves cutting the entire clitoris off not to mention sewings things up down there. They would be comparable if male circumcision equaled cutting the penis off.
- Isidore, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Some Muslim scholars believe that this barbaric practice is part of Islam, others disagree www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1392 has a transcript of a TV debate between two scholars from the prestigious Al Azhar University.
I recommend www.memritv.org (Middle East Media Research Institute) for subtitled clips and transcripts of Arab TV. If you click on Subjects, Women you will see a lively debate on Arab TV regarding the role of women between neanderthal and modernists. The neanderthals seem to be able to give orthodox quotes from the Qur'an and Hadith more than the modernists do.
Check out the subject area Antisemitism for toe-curling neo-Nazi propaganda in today's world. - LeFrenzy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"Read as a modern coming-of-age story set in Africa, the book has a certain charm. Read as a key to the thinking of a woman who aspires to be the Muslim Voltaire, it is more problematic. The facts as Ms Hirsi Ali tells them here do not fit well either with some of the stories she has told in the past or with her tendency in her political writing to ascribe most of the troubles of the Muslim world to Islam." -The Economist
Read full review at http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8663231&CFID=112962013&CFTOKEN=1f8416b-aaeaa243-194d-4ae0-8a32-e5bfdf36fbce -
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