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121 Comments
- jrhelgeson, on 07/06/2009, -9/+50An illegal coup would be to use military/militia forces to oust the existing president to install an opposition leader. This is not even remotely close to what has happened here.
What is happening in Honduras is 100% legal. The Supreme Court enforced their constitutional single term limit on the president, who was refusing to move out. He wanted to turn into another petty dictator like Chavez & Castro, and now apparently Obama as those are the ones cheering for his return. The Honduran Supreme Court, in order to PROVE that this was not an illegal coup, put the 2nd in command in power from Zelaya's own party - the equivalent of ousting the US president (Obama) only to put the vice-president (Biden) in power. Zelaya's own party all the way up to his VP were against his dictatorial power grab, all of whom supported his ouster.
They had to evict the bum because he would not leave. - apathy9, on 07/06/2009, -7/+34I find the reaction of the press/foreign governments puzzling. My understanding of this situation is:
1. Zelaya wants to hold a referendum on extending his term limit.
2. The Supreme Court says, "That's Unconstitutional, you can't do that"
3. Zelaya says, "STFU Supreme Court I am holding the vote anyways."
4. The Army says, "If you won't uphold the decision of the Supreme Court we will. With like guns and stuff. Now GTFO!"
5. The Army then puts the next guy in line and says, "Ding! Roberto Micheletti you are now interim President. Get working on some early elections."
It seems to me that once this Zelaya guy stopped upholding the rule of law he became a defacto dictator (even though he had originally been democratically elected). The Army is restoring Democracy and the rule of law. Why they are being internationally condemned and international pressure is being applied to restore Zelaya is lost on me. - artgon, on 07/06/2009, -8/+34Good for them. The man wanted to proclaim himself a dictator and had all the corrupt resources to do it. They are standing up for what's right but unfortunately doing it in an undemocratic way. Should be interesting to see how this plays itself out.
- koji150, on 07/06/2009, -7/+27I don't get why so many world leaders are condemning this. Zelaya was going to extend term limits, which is against their constitution, so now he's gone and they're trying to coordinate a new election. Sounds like a good thing to me.
- AlyxVance, on 07/06/2009, -7/+27I can't believe Obama is siding with this guy. This is not a coup. This is Honduras honoring and protecting their Constitution people. Their Constitution states that their president can only serve one term which he is trying to override. Power grab and nothing else.
- theaceoface, on 07/06/2009, -6/+23You mean in Honduras a President will get into trouble for ignoring his country's constitution? In American we'd at least give the guy a second term
- mandraque, on 07/06/2009, -6/+21this is pretty much what happened. Dugg. I am an avid Obama supporter but he is in the wrong here, as are most other leaders of the world, not just him, castro, and chavez.
- Salif, on 07/06/2009, -11/+22awesome, i wish we did that to bush
- 42Vindictive, on 07/06/2009, -4/+15This entire situation is a mess. Zelaya pissed off a lot of very important people with his social changes, but the implementation of dictator-like rule is something I oppose. However, the ousting and coup are in vague co-operation with their constitution, which they use strictly to condemn Zelaya.
- WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -6/+17Which was ILLEGAL according to the constitution, congress, and the supreme court.
Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution: "No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."
Zelaya was warned he couldn't even hold the referendum. He decided he was above the law. - geoffg, on 07/06/2009, -5/+15It seems leftist leaders in Latin America aren't very fond of term limits.
- rjan, on 07/06/2009, -3/+13You are right except for No. 5, the army didn't put anyone in line. They were strictly following instructions from the congress and they are still doing so. The problem here is that it looks like a military coup because all the foreign goverments are ignorantly labeling it so and because the military has been involved from the beginning (again, following instructions from the goverment)
The whole situation is very complicated and there isn't a simple solution. IMHO early elections would be the best choice. Zelaya had only 6 months left to step out anyway, does anyone really think that he could do anything good in 6 months that he didn't in 3.5 years? - Agamemnon582bc, on 07/06/2009, -2/+12The world ceases to amaze me. People in Iran protest against an obviously fraudulent election and the world governments (with the exception of the US) support it, but Honduras rightfully ousts a would-be despot and all of the sudden it's time to not recognize Honduran constitutional law under its new government and call it an "unjustified coup." All the while the media outlets outside of Honduras, who already barely can cover the situation accurately, falsify information and then wonder why some of them are being blocked in Honduras as well (CNN being the obvious example, known as "Chavez News Network" by anti-Zelaya protesters, who far outweigh Zelaya supporters). How stupid can you be? The world leaders answer back by claiming they refuse to recognize the new government in Honduras. How hypocritical, considering most, if not all, had a revolution of sorts to oust a despot or dictator from their country.
- replikhant, on 07/06/2009, -2/+11Mr. Uribe did the same thing, but he happens to be on the US side.
- deema1, on 07/06/2009, -6/+14I would rather Obama not have meddled in the first place than to support a leader who was looking to shred their Constitution and make himself a life-long dictator. For Obama to defend this would-be dictator Zalaya and then demand his reinstatement says a lot more about him than it does Zalaya.
- inactive, on 07/06/2009, -4/+12I agree but zelaya wanted to remove that right.
- p51d007, on 07/06/2009, -4/+12Obama is siding with this nut because he wants to do the same thing here.
Look up HJR5, which seeks to add an amendment to the U.S. constitution to get rid of the 22nd amendment (term limits for the President). Of course if it were to be passed by the house, senate and signed by the president, it would take 2/3 of the states to pass it in their states before it would become law.
Slim chance, but, considering 90% of the idiots in DC & state legislatures get elected over and over again, and, considering the stupidity of the American public...anything is possible. I think instead of repealing the 22nd amendment, we need to put an amendment to restrict how many times U.S. legislators can be elected. I hate it when I see ANYONE go on TV and say "I've been in public service my entire life", which, to me translates, "I'm too stupid to go out and get a job in the private sector, so I just sucked at the teat of the public trough for my entire life". - mandraque, on 07/06/2009, -3/+11Zelaya wanted to not just go agaisnt the constitution but agaisnt all other branches of the government. The right thing was done.
- inactive, on 07/06/2009, -3/+10OMG! Some other countries business! We must do something america!!
- inactive, on 07/06/2009, -5/+12I guess its not wrong if a dictator is established through a corrupt fixed election. its not like Zelaya was bribing people to vote for him. what right do the other branches of government have to check and balance don't they know the king can't be replaced.
- mandraque, on 07/06/2009, -6/+13he wanted an illegal referendum that was ruled by all branches of the government that it should not take place.
- KurtangleTN, on 07/06/2009, -2/+9It's amazing how the media is reporting this. They have focused on small groups of rioters that support Zelaya and are completely ignoring the overwhelming support of their constitution.
To people who say this is a coup, it's not.. imagine if Bush was trying to find some loophole in allowing himself a third term and the supreme court ordered his removal.. - AlyxVance, on 07/06/2009, -6/+13it's not a coup
- inactive, on 07/06/2009, -1/+7Zelaya had ballots shipped in from Venezuela when his attempts to hold the referendum were overturned by congress and the supreme court. He then led a raid on the facility where the ballots were being held and stole them.
He didn't want to follow the law and was booted. - WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -3/+9He had a 30% approval rating in a country where 90% of the population is poor. Please explain to me how that's being popular with the poor.
- Agamemnon582bc, on 07/06/2009, -0/+6Yes, because shooting one kid who was violently protesting is the equivalent to killing 500,000 people. You are an idiot.
- WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -4/+10Mweather... If you had read on, your question was answered in the following paragraph immediately after what you just quoted. Here it is again, in case your glaucoma is acting up.
'Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution: "No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."'
Quoted again for emphasis:
"Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."
Key words: IMMEDIATELY CEASE IN THEIR FUNCTIONS
Was it the right thing to remove Zelaya? Absolutely
Was it the right thing to put him on a plane and ship him out of the country? No. - TheDougem, on 07/06/2009, -0/+6Please note folks, I just did a little research and discovered STATE house of reps also have HJR's. Easy to loose HJR 5 amidst a bunch of different state's HJR5's, so for your convenience, here is a link to the genuine article:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj11 ...
I don't know how much of a shot it has in the house or senate, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on. They did pass the Climate Change bill, after all... - RonPauls, on 07/06/2009, -0/+6I don't think there are angels on either side here. Best to get some popcorn and let it play out.
- alais, on 07/06/2009, -3/+9Honduras is an example of democracy in action, they don't want that Hugo Chavez supreme leader/dictator ***** and kick ass hell yeah's to em for it. Zelaya knew he was playing with fire and guess what, he got burned.
The spin on what happened here is sickening, you can't pick and choose which parts of a constitution you want to adhere to. Any media outlet calling this a coup has immediately put their credibility at risk as far as I'm concerned. - Barackalypse, on 07/06/2009, -10/+16You don't know Obama very well. You were warned over a year ago what he was an now you're surprised he is on the same side of this issue as Hugo Chavez and Castro?
- MWeather, on 07/06/2009, -3/+8There are rallies for and against him. He wasn't exactly unpopular amongst the lower classes.
- quarando, on 07/06/2009, -0/+5@Junkyarddawg - I know it may be hard to believe, but replikhant is essentially correct. Latin and South America have been an imperialist territory of the US for over a century. Almost all of the governments in the region are little more than military juntas. The US gives billions in foreign aid and arms to every one of the military juntas to keep them in power. The modern history of South America is filled with CIA and (native) military led coups to oust leaders that weren't sufficiently open to foreign business interests. None of what I have said is at all in question, it can easily be verified.
Now look at Honduras, it has a "democracy" that is only allowed to function as long as it is producing the right outcomes. When it doesn't, the military steps in. If you look at the ties between the Honduran military and the CIA, what you find is very striking. The Honduran military is essentially just a branch of the CIA, it receives the vast majority of its financial backing and training from the US. Once you realize these basic facts, it is inconceivable that the Honduran military would go forward with this coup without, at the very least, tacit approval from American intelligence. It is more likely the Honduran military was encouraged by the CIA to carry out the coup.
Well then why does Obama oppose the coup? He doesn't. If he did, he would declare it a coup and place sanctions on Honduras as is required by US law. He won't call it a coup though, he just calls it "illegal" and "condemns" it. But this is just diplomatic posturing. Look at what they are actually doing, they continue to fully support the military that has carried out the coup. This tells you something about their real motives.
- alais, on 07/06/2009, -2/+7It is when the constitution specifically forbids it.
- WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -4/+9Sure he was (bribing people). There were reports of fraud in the election, including bribing. Also, after the coup took place it was reported that $3 million USD in cash were found in his office... this on the eve of the referendum.
Here is Zelaya admitting he won thanks to Fraud
http://www.casttv.com/video/ji0oz4/mel-zelaya-dice ...
If you don't understand spanish, allow me to translate:
Reporter: So fraud is part of the system?
Zelaya: It's part of the system. Here, whoever wants to participate in politics and think he's going to play like he's in the vatican, he better choose another line of work.
Reporter: So in Honduras, Mr. President, fraud is legitimized in the elections?
Zelaya: Disorder, fraud, and corruption are all part of the process. With that I won.
Here is a report of 60 million lempiras (3 million USD) found in his office :
Original:
http://www.latribuna.hn/web2.0/?p=14521
Google Translation:
http://tinyurl.com/qsarkf - WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -5/+10http://i43.tinypic.com/2psktoh.jpg
Wrong about the rallies. - TheDougem, on 07/06/2009, -2/+7Great summary mate. It's too bad we can't kick your comment to the top of the pile. Dugg.
- WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -3/+8Quoted again for the fourth time:
Article 239: "Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately..."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propose
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indirect ...
Under the Honduran constitution for an elected leader to even discuss it is illegal. Whether you like it or not, calling it legal won't make it so. - WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -2/+7It is. It is indirectly proposing it. The fact that this opinion poll was asking if the people would support a Constitutional Assembly to change term limits is in fact a proposition, and showed intent... perhaps not directly (in my opinion it is), but that's why the broader term "indirectly" was included in that article.The language in the constitution clearly bars intent.
Now, let me ask you this... have you read the original article you're arguing against, in it's original form (spanish)?
A second question. Who interprets the law and the constitution in the US?
The courts interpret the law, whether you like it or not and whether or not their interpretation is flawed or biased, you have to follow the rule of law (or you can gamble with your freedom). It's not fair. It's not pretty. It's the law.. plain and simple.
In the case of Honduras, the courts ruled it was illegal and the ruling is backed clearly by the language in the constitution. Zelaya chose to ignore their ruling. There is no argument. It was not legal.
Now, if you want to argue that taking him out of the country was not legal, then we can agree on that. - ilopez, on 07/06/2009, -6/+10Eh I doubt it... I doubt that the US Government will want to be involved; Obama has condemned what the Honduran Supreme Court & Congress did to oust Zelaya. They did in the "strictest interpretation" of their constitution, which is a bit of fresh air. For once, Chavez and Noriega are on the same page for Obama... yet Chavez is accusing that US is involved... although i'm not sure how, or is he. For more info: http://helphondurasnow.com/
- alais, on 07/06/2009, -3/+7It's not a coup.
- cran, on 07/06/2009, -2/+6I wholly support what the Honduran legal system has done to rid themselves of a dictator.
Good job. - WraTH017, on 07/06/2009, -1/+5http://www.cuartaurna.com/
This is what's in the ballot. Allow me to translate, but don't take my word for it if you want to do it yourself.
"4.- Are you in favor of allowing the immediate re-election of a president?
5.- Are you in favor of allowing the indefinite re-election of a president?
6. Are you confident in allowing that president Manuel Zelaya modify the constitution at his discretion?
8. Do you consider president Manuel Zelaya has sufficient merit to be reelected as president?"
Seems pretty clear to me. - MinimumEffort, on 07/06/2009, -4/+8Removing one man from office is hardly a coup. Even if the courts, military and congress of their country might be wrong the best I would describe this as a government struggling to find the limitations of its power. Gimme a word for that.
- Agamemnon582bc, on 07/06/2009, -1/+5Right, because illegal ballots from Venezuela are going to be legit.
- LinuxCobra, on 07/06/2009, -0/+4@Junk: This didn't just happen overnight, it started weeks before. They do not understand because they believe it is the same constitution as theirs. On top of that they also watch the same media we do which happen to be reporting inaccurate news about the situation. Why does it take the nations of OAS only a day to condemn this act without hearing both sides, particularly the side that ousted the ex president? Of course if the US says its bad everyone follows.
- Shaggy3, on 07/06/2009, -2/+5Like they didn't expect that to happen.
- Junkyarddawg, on 07/06/2009, -1/+4I'm talking about due process. He should've been charged with a crime, sentenced, and THEN run out of town.
- khighland, on 07/06/2009, -3/+6What's scary about the world's reaction is that they are coming against the rule of law. Everything that was done was constitutional. What happens to us all if countries don't uphold the rule of law?! Obama IS wrong here.
- gudiablo, on 07/06/2009, -5/+8coupe d tat just simple we dont want military goverments ,only democracy please let the people from Honduras choose
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