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Having fled Iraq, she died at the hands of her father, because of a kiss

timesonline.co.uk — A gentle kiss on a South London street captured on a mobile telephone camera sealed Banaz Mahmod ’s fate. When the photograph, taken by a member of the Kurdish community, was shown to Miss Mahmod’s uncle, Ari Mahmod, a family meeting was called where it was decided that the 20-year-old woman and her boyfriend, Rahmat Sulemani, must be murdered.

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  • zyoslancer, on 10/11/2007, -91/+240Religion makes people nuts, as a race I would wager we would be a lot better off without it, less wars, less segmentation of the race etc. If it wasn't for religion we'd be colonising space right now ...
    • unitedstatians, on 10/11/2007, -74/+140I agreed
      Religion will be the end of humanity.
    • swordedge, on 10/11/2007, -8/+246They call it honor killing. We need to scream that there is no honor in honor killings. Pure insanity
    • thepeacemaker, on 10/11/2007, -51/+189This has nothing to do with religion. It is a cultural practice that has to do with centuries of tradition. There is nothing in any of the religions followed in that part of the world (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Yazidis, Zoarasterism, etc) that condones this.
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -87/+47@ thepeacemaker

      Could you point me to an honor killing that didn't involve a muslim? I think you will find it is pretty hard to find (if you can find one at all).






    • thepeacemaker, on 10/11/2007, -30/+106>@liam76: Could you point me to an honor killing that didn't involve a muslim?

      Here's one from last month. The killers were Yazidis.
      http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/18/iraq.honorkilling/index.html

      As for your point about Muslims, your logic can be categorized under the fallacy of "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc": This is the fallacy of mistaking correlation for causation -- i.e., thinking that because two things occur simultaneously, one must be a cause of the other. If you have any proof showing Islam's support for honor killing (i.e. killing family members for their wanting to marry of their own choice) then please feel free to share it.
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -24/+73There are few mainstream clerics who come out in support of honor killings, but on the local level it must be happening because it is always the excuse given.

      Islam does give support for honor killings by being a mysoginistic religion (I realize not all muslims practice it as such, but most do). Anywhere a woman doesn't have the same rights as man because of religion, ie head scarves, burqua's, limited clothes, limited access to education and is considered less important or subserviant to the man it encourages honor killings. Once a woman is less important than family honor it become reasonable to kill her if she besmirches the family honor.
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -15/+53BTW
      - Yazidi was heavily influenced by early Islamic religions. I am curious what percentage of honor killings are done by muslims vs the other major world religions.
    • hiPpymIck, on 10/11/2007, -10/+24..why is it always fathers who come up with these mad ideas?
    • chocobomog, on 10/11/2007, -43/+95"[group or concept you dislike] makes people nuts, as a race I would wager we would be a lot better off without [group/concept you dislike], less wars, less segmentation of the race etc. If it wasn't for [group/concept you dislike] we'd be [positive societal advancement] right now ..."

      Why do people digg these comments up? If he had said "Jews" or "Blacks" instead of religion he would be dugg down and called a racist or bigot. Why does attacking religion get a pass? It is the same idea.

      And if you want to generalize even more, try inserting these words as well:

      Money
      Government
      Love
      Greed
      Hate
      Chinchillas

      There is no one group or concept that is ruining the world. Many of them also bring many positives that are ignored.
    • 10001110101, on 10/11/2007, -2/+48@choco:

      Contrary to what you may have heard, chinchillas are a threat & should be eliminated.

      http://www.thestar.com/article/216172
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -18/+9"There is no one group or concept that is ruining the world. Many of them also bring many positives that are ignored."



      Reality TV.

      nuff said.
    • fober, on 10/11/2007, -11/+4@ chocobomog

      HEY LAY OFF THE CHINCHILLAS!
    • gldfshnpcklejar, on 10/11/2007, -18/+45Which brings up a good point... Honor killings aren't done only by Muslim, but how many atheist honor killings have been documented?
    • EarlOfLade, on 10/11/2007, -22/+12Cultural killings are always connected to religion.
    • korashime2001, on 10/11/2007, -17/+48If we didn't fight over religion, we would fight over who was more zealous in their Athiesim. Don't kid yourselves, humans can get violent over a colour. It don't take much.
    • tehpwnrate, on 10/11/2007, -12/+41@chocobomog
      You cannot deny the facts and evidence that it is fundamentalist Islam that breeds these attitudes. If it were any other way, we would see just as many honor killings coming from all over America, Europe (especially those nations that have an official religion), and other places. I read an article in Discover magazine about Islam and science. An Islamic "scientist" who is very revered in Egypt blamed America for Islam's scientific problems, then went on to spout nonsense from the Koran and a bunch of crap about Muhammad--very unscientific stuff. The point is, even their "best" scientists are constrained by religion. We may have our nutjobs here, but do you see American scientists halting their research of evolution? I think not.

      In summary, as I realize that was a somewhat divergent paragraph, there are cases when a certain group is a problem, or has major problems, and your political correctness does not influence that fact.
    • toolegittoquit, on 10/11/2007, -23/+9@chocobomog

      ***** that. Religion needs to die.
    • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -15/+27"This has nothing to do with religion. It is a cultural practice that has to do with centuries of tradition. There is nothing in any of the religions followed in that part of the world (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Yazidis, Zoarasterism, etc) that condones this."


      So what the do you think the largest influence on their culture is? It's a safe bet to say religion has the largest influence.
    • strafefire, on 10/11/2007, -25/+18Read *Numbers* and *Leviticus* in the Bible.

      If true fundamentalist Christians got their way, honor killings and stoning would be common place here in the US too!

      Or, if I rape you daughter, I would owe you a few camels and some of my produce for the year -- that's it...

      The Media and the Government are ALWAYS talking about radical Islam to keep us fearful and under control -- but in reality, fundamentalist Christianity scares the living ***** out of me.

      Oh, and BTW, I am Agnostic not Athiest, but I SO understand a lot about the atheist position...
    • ahawks, on 10/11/2007, -26/+78I'll be buried for this, since this is digg and I'm actually going to defend religion here, but ***** it.

      Men are Men, humans are human. The acts of men should not be counted as faults of religion, but faults of men.

      If this guy was ***** in the head enough to murder his own daughter, well, I blame him, not his religion.

      My favorite analogy is: the pure water of religion is tainted when contained in the rusty bucket of mankind.
    • eudyptes, on 10/11/2007, -21/+10@ chocobomog :

      "Why do people digg these comments up? If he had said "Jews" or "Blacks" instead of religion he would be dugg down and called a racist or bigot. Why does attacking religion get a pass? It is the same idea."

      No. You don't get to choose your Jewishness (racial heritage) or Blackness, so attacking someone on those grounds are in fact racist.

      Attacking someone on the basis of their religious choice is entirely different.
    • bonhoeffer, on 10/11/2007, -9/+4"Religion will be the end of humanity."

      Religion will end when humanity ends. Given that all societies have had a religion and individuals are innately religious, the reverse of that is probably true: humanity will end when religion ends.

      BTW, does Islam authorize families to kill an adult family member who has a romance outside of marriage? If not, Banaz Mahmod's murder is not a religious thing and the critical comments here are just outlets for bigotry.
    • GreyICE, on 10/11/2007, -5/+18So, you haven't figured out the difference between religion and culture yet? Religion is often part of a culture, but these barbaric tribal customs existed long before any religion came along. Do you seriously think the middle east was peaceful and violence free before Islam? Its just the FUD that says that all cultures are equal that makes people ascribe religious explanations to what is clearly a cultural issue.
    • MWeather, on 10/11/2007, -2/+24"Those arabs are just nuts."

      They're not Arabs, they're Kurds.
    • rosefu, on 10/11/2007, -5/+40As much as I dislike religion, I don't believe it's religion. It's a culture that espouses absolute male superiority combined with a chilling lack of basic human compassion.

      I come from a culture that throws away female babies as a routine. I would have been among them (my father wanted a son) had I not been born to a more enlightened family on my mother's side. China is not a religious state by any stretch of the imagination (more like the opposite of it), thus the brutal subjugation and mistreatment of women does not need religion. Religion is just a handy excuse.
    • sardiax, on 10/11/2007, -9/+15@thepeacemaker (#7146228)

      I don't think it's mere coincidence that most "honor killings" are done by highly religious people. Just look back at the Crusades for Christ's sake. Anybody who commits themself into a belief system that leads people into believing that they are better than anybody outside their belief system is living in a warped version of reality. Religions do not need explicitly state that their folliowers are better than all non-followers, the secularism of religion itself, combined with constantly re-telling of the rewards only they(the followers) will recieve, should be some evidence to what I'm talking about. In my experience this would include most of the religions on Earth.
    • AegisGFX, on 10/11/2007, -17/+11Thats sick, it should be made illegal to kill people.

      Actually religion is the blame for this. Religions all state the same thing, its ok to kill people as long as they don;t believe they same imaginary ***** you do.
    • bonhoeffer, on 10/11/2007, -10/+12"Religions all state the same thing, its ok to kill people as long as they don;t believe they same imaginary ***** you do."

      Want to reference a religious source that states that, or is your claim just imaginary *****?
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -6/+10@ strafefire

      Look at when leviticus is from. First off it is pretty normal stuff for when it was written, that was how people lived.

      Secondly it is the old Testament, the new testament trumps everything in it (as do the 10 commandments and Jesus teachings).
    • mandarin, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4Not religion but some practice they do... Insane
    • Ahnteis, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4Honor killing, gang violence, racially motivated violence, anti-gay violence, anti-_________ violence.... it's all the same.

      Just because we don't call it by the same name doesn't make it any different in the end.
    • why1ime, on 10/11/2007, -4/+14I don't think we can blame religion for honor killings. Now I'm no expert, but doesn't the Koran advocate women's rights and equality? I remember reading somewhere that the Koran allows women to own property and hold jobs and handle her own finances. All the stuff about women having to cover their faces and honor killings are cultural practices, not religious ones.

      Here's an article I found on a quick google search.
      http://www.afghan-web.com/articles/womenrights.html
    • taylooooor, on 10/11/2007, -6/+14@thepeacemaker

      The judaic religions don't condone honor killings? Have you read their holy texts? Take, for example, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, a passage shared by Christianity and Judaism:

      "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
      Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

      Obviously (and thankfully), most Christians and Jews don't follow this piece of their holy text. But to say that there's nothing in these religions that condone honor killings is just simply false.
    • joeroot1, on 10/11/2007, -7/+18are you guys ***** retarded, honor killings have been happening for centuries. take the past 50 years, parts of italy and america have been ripped apart by honor killings carried out by the mafia, over matters over "honour', you see honour killings in many american slums, amongst the largely afro-american community. and what the ***** were the KKK doing, they were carrying out honor killings. digg is full of racist bigots.
    • Genthree, on 10/11/2007, -6/+10@choco

      Religion is a choice, race is not. Saying that religions should be free from criticism is like the morbidly obese people fighting for "equality" when their condition is actually detrimental and should not be condoned.
    • spinaboy, on 10/11/2007, -14/+3Arabs are basically animals. You assinine liberals go on and on about guantanamo and abu ghraib and the palestinians etc. When she loke this happens, which is all the time, you look the other way. Arabs are nothing less than rabid animals that need to be exterminated.
    • rhawk301, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6This is the case of a deranged man, plain and simple. If you allow religion such as this to control your thoughts to such an extent, that it removes all common sense from you, then you are an idiot. It is sort of like when you live in a mob family. You are subjected to many horrible things, and then are told that it is a normal part of living in this family. That doesn't make it right.

      I feel the same applies to all cultures and peoples. You cannot violate a person's basic human rights, such as the right to live, be secure in their own property, and be happy. Fortunately, a few smart guys already came up with this and it is called the "Declaration of Independence", maybe you heard of it. Followed simply for its intent, everyone would be better off. Its when governments get involved do things go amok.

      If you are religious, then great. Just don't violate a person's basic human rights and you are ok. Forcing religion down someones throat never worked throughout history, as it always leads to violence. Guess what, take a look at the Middle East. They have been fighting for thousands of years, but I guess its more about land then religion. They just use religion as an excuse to continue an ancient war.

      Do I think everyone should be like the United States, no, certainly not. I do think that all the world should take a step back and start respecting each other, even if just a little.
    • sledhead45, on 10/11/2007, -7/+0as the great george thorogood once said "get a haircut and get a real job"
    • itanshi, on 10/11/2007, -4/+3Yeah, but the thing is, most Muslims see their religion as a way of life so it as such is akin to the tradition shown here of 'honor killing' can we separate the way of life practices? I guess its just easier said than done when it comes down to it.
    • PommyBrit, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2It should be noted though that it's more of a cultural issue than a religious one. Sure, these idiots will claim they did it because of what their religion dictates, but obviously that's something that's ingrained into them via their culture.
    • StormTrooperVII, on 10/11/2007, -8/+15"This has nothing to do with religion. It is a cultural practice that has to do with centuries of tradition."

      *****!

      From the article:
      "
      A father of six and a strict Muslim, Mahmod Mahmod ruled the family home with a rod of iron. When Bekhal, an older sister, wore Western dress her father called her a whore, beat her and demanded that she wear the veil.
      ....
      She later met Mr Sulemani, an Iranian Kurd, and the pair soon fell in love. Because Mr Sulemani was not a strict Muslim and not from the Mirawaldy region, Miss Mahmod’s father ruled that she would never marry him. To enforce this point, she was taken to a Kurdish home in Sheffield and beaten for two weeks.
      "

      and the kicker:
      "
      In January last year, Mohamad Hama, 30, along with other Kurdish men, attempted to bundle Mr Sulemani into a car. As Mr Sulemani escaped, Hama shouted after him: “We are Muslim and Kurdish. We are not like the English where you can be boyfriend and girlfriend.”

      But a few days later, Miss Mahmod was dead.
      "

      By THEIR OWN WORDS, the killers in fact DID do what they did BECAUSE they were Muslim, BECAUSE of their religion. The father wanted his daughter dead BECAUSE of his religion. Ergo, the statement that this has nothing to do with religion or Islam is completely false. Sure, non-Muslims do "honor killings" too, so the practice is not unique to them; however, it isn't just a cultural thing as you claim, it is fully religious. It is cultural only to the extent that their religion dominates their culture.
    • stonewaljacksn, on 10/11/2007, -5/+7So who else here noticed the change in religious related discussion on digg. People who respond that religion is NOT the cause of all world problems...are not being dugg down to hell anymore. It appears that people are finally noticing that a religion-hating atheist stance is as ***** retarded as an atheist hating religious stance. For the remaining blindly hateful atheists, hopefully you will also learn to come off of your high horse and stop blaming religion (which FORTUNATELY for you you don't believe so you can convince yourself you are guilt free regarding all the world's problems for not believing, right?) for everything that's wrong with the world.
      No matter what you believe in we are all responsible for the state of the world today, whether you think it's great or horrible. But hey I guess it's easy to blame problems on a different group of people.
    • StormTrooperVII, on 10/11/2007, -8/+5"My favorite analogy is: the pure water of religion is tainted when contained in the rusty bucket of mankind."

      I prefer: the pure water of mankind is tainted when contained in the rusty bucket of religion.
    • haggie, on 10/11/2007, -5/+5the desire of muslim fathers to kill their daughters for any perceived sexual activity (even rape) can only be attributed to a perverse physical attraction and their frustration of having this sexual being removed from their control.

      also note that incestuous sexual activity within families declines as education and wealth grow. it makes sense that poor uneducated muslims would be most likely to have incestuous relationships or have fantasies about incestuous relationships that could provoke this type of violence toward a daughter that is perceived to be "defiled".

      creepy.

      same goes for african genital mutilation.
    • billmania, on 10/11/2007, -6/+5Without religion, society will decend into hopeless, unrecoverable nihilism. I can't beleive some of the people on digg lately, "If it wasn't for religion we'd be colonising space right now." Who are you, Bill O'Reily? Anytime someone religious does anything wrong, certain (not all) diggers jump all over it as evidence that religion should be abolished. Maybe when an atheist commits a crime, we should try to ban athiesm.
    • RealHyperX, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Religion? or Islam in particular.

      If we are generalizing, why not just say HUMANITY and not religion.

    • stonewaljacksn, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4billmania
      ""If it wasn't for religion we'd be colonising space right now." Who are you, Bill O'Reily?"

      I also got a good laugh out of reading that comment. It's sad that he got dugg up so high for saying something so ridiculously stupid...and not only because he must have to be such a trekkie nerd to worry so much about colonizing space.
      I got one ok, heres the deal if you think it's mature and funny digg me up...here goes:
      "If it wasn't for science there never would've been nuclear or chemical weapons capable of murdering ridiculous amounts of people at any given moment".
      ..that's great right?

      ***** I guess everything has it's good and bad sides, you just gotta look at the whole thing.
    • mpn401, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1This isn't religion. It's about good & evil. Good does not exist. People are evil by nature, and will automatically go to the 'evil' choice. You see someone doing something 'good', it's an illusion imposed by morals, fear of punishment, or religious beliefs. Absoleutely nobody likes doing anything 'good', but people get a kick out of doing something 'evil'.

      There's also differing degrees of evil. Some are evil by greed, some by lust, and some (like this case) by murder.
    • Wacer, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4@strafefire "If true fundamentalist Christians got their way, honor killings and stoning would be common place here in the US too!"

      Actually you have it wrong. Christians that follow their religion know that the New Testament supercedes the Old so if was OK to stone in the Old Testament and the New says thats not allowed, then the New takes precedence. Hardcore Christians do not condone stoning or killing. You obviously don't even grasp this simple knowledge or you wouldn't have said that statement. I have never heard of any true modern day Christians condoning any killing for any reason.

      I agree with another commenter in the list that stated if we didn't have religion people would find something to fight over anyway. Man has an evil streak in it no matter if their is religion or not.
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@strafe
      That's exactly why these honor killings are cultural and not religious in nature. The Christian Bible may say that, but you never see honor killings in America, whereas you do in the mid-east and those cultures. Obviously, it's not just the religion, but more so the culture itself.
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1@Storm
      That's their excuse/rationalization. It's the culture. The religion, by the way, was influenced by the culture, not the other way around. Read up on the origins of Islam.
    • dixta, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Hooray for religion! Murdering a family member, your own flesh and blood, for something so trivial.

      ***** religion, it makes me sick to my stomach to read ***** like this. Like zyoslancer said, as a species we are far better off without it.
    • hydratedsquash, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2So, this is why some people don't like to kiss in public.
    • somnambulator, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@wacer
      The ten commandments are from the old testament, and going by the fuss over them in the US, I would think 'the devout' are more than happy to live by the old testament.
    • buadach, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1@Chocobomog

      'Black' is a term describing race.

      'Jew' is a term describing religious choice.

      'Muslim' is a term describing religious choice.

      I will not judge someone because of their race, age, sex, or sexuality, but I will use every means possible to argue with people who make free choices that affect me negatively.

      I have no problem with people having their own spirituality but when this spirituality has a negative effect on society, it is our duty to curb it.
  • lnf69, on 10/11/2007, -39/+58Religion of Peace strikes again.




    There, I said it first this time!
    • Trutholder, on 10/11/2007, -48/+18@lnf69

      Hey moron,

      Learn something before you open your mouth, Religion and Culture are two seperate things. You have people from a certain country who mix culture with religion and then say its religion. Get your facts straight. Secondly, i discintly rember not so long ago. That a black man whould be killed if he whistle at a white lady. And omg guess what they were chritians. Jeee, your realigion of peace strikes again too. Losser.

      P.S. find me evideance in the ISLAM religion you are allowd to kill anyone for kiss? exactly you wont.
    • Robopath, on 10/11/2007, -32/+2That'll teach her. . .

      Maybe she needed some Mentos. . .. "No its ok! I have the FRESHMAKER"
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -18/+43@ Trutholder

      Religion and culture are not completely independent. Islam is a mysoginist sexist religion by the standards of any western country (this isn't to say all muslims are). If you look at the traditions of the religion that most who call themselves muslims follow you have to accept this as fact. while this doesn't directly cause honor killings it does make it alot easier to happen since the women is seen as not as important as the man or the family.

      Most Arab countries have a fair amount of christians, why is it that you never hear of honor killings from them? Why are there no cases of honor killings in the christian communities from aran countries that have moved to the west?
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -11/+20@ Trutholder

      BTW how old are you that you remember lynchings?

      Do you remember any of them happening in the north? Do you perhaps remember that the people who stopped them, that raised the loudest voice against them were also christians?

      Do you see an outcry against honor killings in muslim countries? (it is legal in Jordan, Syria, Morrocco, and is hardly ever prosecuted in Pakistan. In Saudi and Iran the family can decide the punishment for murder (payoff or death) and if their own family did it they can normally expect to walk).
    • Trutholder, on 10/11/2007, -22/+11@liam76

      Hey let me educate you, In Egypt the a Coptic Christians, family murdered their Daugther because she was dating a Muslim. so their you go. so don't talk to me about Christians in the ARAB world who dont do that same thing. just becuse you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. and this is one news story that happens around the Arab world to Christians and Muslims.

      Secondly you said "BTW how old are you that you remember lynchings?" It doesn't matter if i remember it or not. HISTORY remembers it. what kind of retarded logic is that? just because you were not alive at a certain period, doesn't mean the rules don't apply.

      Thirdly, Christianity was for a long time a misogynist sexist religion, read history, and youll see that women in Christianity all throughout time from its conception were considered a second class citizens. And do you know why? because in Christianity, the men blame the woman for seducing Adam in to eating the apple, in the garden of Eden. so just because Christianity has been reformed over and over again doesn't mean anything,
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -9/+21@ truthholder,

      I would love a link to coptic christians killing their daughter. If I remember correctly from when I lived there they are 10 or 12% of the population? I know they account for far far less than 10% of the honor killings.

      I was mocking you for using "I remember" as if you were around for it.

      Yeah christianity WAS a misogynist sexist religion it isn't any longer (for the most part, there always whackos) because it was challenged, it had its sexist practices and beliefs called out and questioned. Unless you are willing to do the same for islam it will remain as a largely sexist religion.
    • Veritate, on 10/11/2007, -9/+26@Trutholder,

      You're right, we shouldn't blame the religion.

      Those arabs are just nuts.

      Feel better?
    • OMGWTFROFLMAOx2, on 10/11/2007, -4/+12Lynchings were still occurring well into the 50's/60's. That is not that far off. Many of your grandparents probably remember them.
    • itanshi, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Actually 'smear the queer' still happens in the south US today. Nothing like fabricating excuses to hate and kill.
    • StormTrooperVII, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3"Religion and Culture are two seperate things."

      Religion is a subset of culture, and for those in this story, an extremely large one.

      "Christianity was for a long time a misogynist sexist religion"

      True. Now explain why that excuses Islam from the same.
  • inertic, on 10/11/2007, -19/+6The girl was an idiot too. If you read the article, it said the police offered her protection but she refused. She wanted to stay with the family even though they beaten her a number of times. If she had half a brain cell working, she would have ran away. When you have parents as ass-backwards as hers, it is not worth risking your life to stay with them.
    • xniL, on 10/11/2007, -2/+33She had faith in her family, its not her fault that they failed to have faith in her.
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@x
      Beautiful, sad, and true
  • Makubex, on 10/11/2007, -1/+32“She was my present, my future, my hope – the best thing that ever happened to me,” he said at the end of the three-month trial. “My life went away when Banaz died. I am heartbroken and falling apart. All the dreams and the hopes are crushed.”

    That is, by far, the most depressing thing that I have read all day.
    • haggie, on 10/11/2007, -11/+2that much "caring" for his daughter borders on being creepy...
    • StormTrooperVII, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9"that much "caring" for his daughter borders on being creepy..."

      That was the boyfriend. Dugg down for not reading the article.
  • mikefitz2, on 10/11/2007, -14/+4at least we did our part and removed saddam. praise the lord gwb had the foresight to remove a dictator.
    • neonrehan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5@mikefitz2

      Since you chose to bring up Saddam, which has no bearing on the article, I will attempt to address your statement for the benefit of the misinformed.

      I believe removing a dictator doesn't resolve an issue. This isn't an ideal movie world where the super villain's defeat brings peace to the land. I actually agree that the termination of Saddam's regime was an important step in establishing democracy in a terrorized (not terrorist) nation. However, I believe any administration in our century had the courage and precedence to oust Saddam, so "gdb" wasn't a special case. What should prevent a great leader from making such monumental decisions is understanding the ramifications of those actions, whether they are just and welcomed. Saving a nation by defeating an individual is an imaginary and simplistic resolution. Saving a nation by understanding its culture, its reason, its politics, and using military force as more of a defense of national policy is a sign of true democracy and the proper measure of cooperative diplomacy.
    • labmouse42, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2@mikefitz2
      You do know that Saddam was a secular dictator, right?
      Secularity (adjective form secular) is the state of being separate from religion.

      Saddam was a monster who murdered his own people ruthlessly.
      But trying to use this article to justify the takeover of Iraq is just .... dumb!
    • Tarnum, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Praise the Lord? Puh-leeeez.
      Saddam was a monster... yes, but so were many of his subjects. Was there any other way to rule Iraq, but with iron fist? The three warring factions - the shia, the sunni and the Kurds were at their throats at the moment the US disbanded the old Iraqi police/army/security forces.
      And talking about monstrosities and torture... Abu Gharib anyone? All the prisoners, who died during interrogation and whose autopsy reports were somehow lost? Is the new ruler of Iraq any better?
  • rlh1, on 10/11/2007, -4/+24Abuse of women in Pakistan.
    Not caused by Kurdish culture>
    http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/08/news/UN-GEN-UN-Womens-Rights.php

    There have been so many articles and news reports of honor killings of women - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, India, every Middle East country. By Sharia law women have less rights then men. If I remember correctly, it is forbidden for a women to go outside of the home without a male member of the family Saudi Arabia who base their entire system of laws on Islam. After reading for the last 20 years about school girls in Algeria being stabbed to death because they were improperly dressed to acid attacks in the faces of women in Bangladesh, it seems to me that it is not totally culture. In that 3000 mile stretch between Algeria and Bangladesh there are a lot of cultures...
    Here is another link for your viewing pleasure --> http://www.ikwro.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=2

    • neonrehan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Thanks for the stats. When a country has a ratio of nearly 3000 to 1 when it comes to people per available physician, things like domestic crime get hidden in the fog of underdevelopment in a third world country. It should be made obvious that nations like Pakistan, Indonesia and even China, are all examples of economies that incorporate modern and booming industries but are isolated in small concentrated regions dwarfed by the rest of the country. If you want to change issues about violence in women, you need to first attack the larger milestone of how to develop security and civil government in the smallest town.
  • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -13/+2SAVE IRAQ FROM EVIL AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • GEOFF1, on 10/11/2007, -4/+0@zyoslancer

    i agree
    people need to trust in their friends and family members a bit more life might be a bit easier

    @inertic

    why would u want protection from ur family
  • zyl0x, on 10/11/2007, -7/+18People blame fighting on religion and than fight about whether or not it's religion's fault.

    Have any of you considered the possibility that PEOPLE are the cause of war?
    • EarlOfLade, on 10/11/2007, -14/+11Yes, and they always use god as an excuse. ref Bush who claims god talked to him and told him what to do etc.

      Religion is the root of all evil.
    • noahhoward, on 10/11/2007, -7/+2Kill all humans?
    • zyl0x, on 10/11/2007, -10/+1Dugg down? I'm speechless.
    • ArchieAndrews, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4Of course people are the _direct_ cause of war. What is frequently the point on which the opposing sides disagree? What is the mystical force that leaders use to rationalize their war efforts? Who is often said to be "blessing this attack"?

      Apart from land disputes (which are often based on "attitudes of entitlement" gleaned via scripture), religion is a huge motivating factor in a group's motivation for war.
    • Ramble, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8No, religion itself isn't to blame. People themselves are ignorant, and religion is used as an excuse to go kill the neightbors because we don't like the look of them or something.
    • ArchieAndrews, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2@ramble:

      You have a point that a savvy leader could feign religious belief (divine direction) to marshal the believers however, there are certainly leaders who have actually believed in what the said and actually believed they were divinely instructed to follow a course of war.

      Also, it begs the question, if there was no religion, how could it be used as a motivator in the fashion you suggest?

      With organized religion out of the way, both our points become moot.
    • tk0680, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3What? Of course people are the cause of war. Now, what drives those people to war? Welcome to square one.
    • ironyinc, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Almost every war has been started for economic gain, not under religious motivation. While religion has been used as a way to mislead the public about why you are going to war (Crusades 2-9) war has been primarily about either gaining land or retaliation for prior losses.

      In fact until the rise of secularism in Europe, the papacy succeeded most of the time in keeping the catholic countries from fighting amongst themselves.
  • mattatastic, on 10/11/2007, -2/+19Dear God, please protect me from your followers...
  • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -5/+43As a Muslim, I can assure you that "honor killings" are completely un-Islamic. According to our belief, this woman's murderer has committed a grave sin and will be punished severely for it if not in this life, than surely in the afterlife. Unfortunately, many Muslims love their own backwards culture more than they love Islam. Most Muslims are not practicing their religion or are practicing a form of Islam that has been completely corrupted due to the practitioner's ignorance or arrogance.
    • noahhoward, on 10/11/2007, -3/+25You find that in most religions, most Christians for example, aren't Christians.
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -9/+4In Shaira law (at least as it is understood in Saudi, and Iran arguably the centers for Shia and sunni Islam) the family of a murdered person can decide to take "blood money" instead of having the guilty party executed. When the family is the one who murdered the person isn't this giving a free pass to honor killings?
    • imants, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8@liam76

      There's never been a documented case of an honor killing in Iran. If anyone kills a family member, they are prosecuted. Honor killings have no part in Iranian culture whatsoever.
    • Muyoso, on 10/11/2007, -6/+7What is the true Islamic faith? Is it following the Quran directly? Because if it is, you might be the one who is completely un-Islamic for thinking these things are wrong like the rest of the world.

      http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/QURAN/women/long.html

      A few wonderful selections:

      # Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." 2:228
      # Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
      #Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -5/+5Liam76 -- do you have a citation for your allegation that Shaira law advocates "honor killing" -- or did you just make it up?
    • GreyICE, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6@imants

      Nice troll. Do read on:
      http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1436398,00.html

      Just because Iran doesn't submit any reports on honor killings to the UN doesn't mean that they don't happen. Lying about information doesn't make it go away.
    • labmouse42, on 10/11/2007, -5/+5And this article is pushed forward to help generate anti-Muslim sentiment.

      :-
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4muyoso -- your citations are very poorly translated and taken entirely our of context. Thanks for adding further confusion to the discussion.
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3@ imants

      UN Commission on Human Rights and amnesty international disagrees with you about honor killings in Iran.
      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

    • willowreed, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3The only thing is..if they are "unIslamic" why do they still happen with such frequency? I hope and wish that somewhere, someone that is Islamic will stand up about this problem and do something about it. These women have done nothing wrong other than to search for their own happiness..and yet they are murdered for that? Its a shame.
    • Liam76, on 10/11/2007, -4/+3@ zenryan

      I thought I spelled it out pretty clearly.

      Under shaira law (at least as it is practiced in Saudi) when someone is killed the family of the person killed can decide if the killer can pay money, or go free instead of being executed.

      If that is the case, what do you think happens in the case of honor killings? It allows families to kill their own women with impunity since the family can decide to let the murder go. While this doesn't nescesarily encourage honor killings it allows families that practice it to get away scott free.


    • Muyoso, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4@ zenryan

      Choose for me a good translation of the Quran then please, you know one that is accurate. Its very easy for you to always pawn off every critique of Islam as either translated badly or only applying to "those muslims" who arent really muslims. So I will play into your little game of dodgeball, give me an accurate translation of the Quran that includes those passages.

      I went to a pro islamic website, here: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

      This is their translation, wonder if this is going to be accurate or not.

      #And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.

      # Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

      # And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands

    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1@muyoso

      OK, I'll accept these translations, and respond to each:

      > #And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.

      This is from the second chapter of the Quran, which I believe deals with the topic of divorce. My understanding is that the "degree of advantage" describes how men are often physically stronger (but now always) and how society is often biased against women (men have the advantage). The Quran is not necessarily advocating that society remain this way, but saying in this case (of dealing with divorce or remaining married) that men have different rights. In marriage in Islam, women have MANY rights over their husbands, so I believe the Quran is setting the terms of divorce in the favor of men (a little) to offset the disparity of rights in marriage.

      # Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

      From chapter 4, which talks about the conduct of husbands and wives. It is not saying that men are the maintainers of ALL women, but that it is their obligation to maintain and protect their wives. In marriage, men MUST provide for their wives, that is one of a man's obligations. In Islam, with that obligation, you also get some rights. This part of the Quran specifically deals with how to reconcile differences with your wives and shortly after recommends that although a husband might be stronger, he aught to be gentle towards his wife even if she is doing wrong things (according to the religion). He aught to encourage his wife to adhere to the religion as she must encourage the same in her husband.

      # And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands

      Yes, Islam is very conservative and modest. Both men and women are not supposed to gaze (stare at!) members of the opposite sex. In addition men and women are supposed to wear modest clothes so that they are not inadvertently causing people of the opposite gender to stare at them.

      I understand that you may not agree with these ideas. At least understand that they are not intended to oppress anyone. There are guidelines for practicing Muslim men and women, for them to implement personally to the best of their ability.
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@zen
      Would you say these "honor killings" are cultural then?
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+0@tech42er -- yes, I see these practices as being cultural. Reflective of what Muslims refer to as the Jahilya period: the pre-Islamic Arabian age of ignorance, marked by barbarism and unbelief.
  • lukehh, on 10/11/2007, -6/+3So it begins again.....
  • mancat, on 10/11/2007, -9/+14I am so tired of hearing about these ***** crazy UltraMuslims.
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -4/+7He is not an "UltraMuslim". An "UltraMuslim" would spend their time giving charity, praying... fasting... striving for their community, etc. Practicing Muslims hate what God hates (therefore we hate this person) -- and the Quran and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad have made it very clear (to those who read!) that this action is completely forbidden and will be punished (by God).
    • funkmachine, on 10/11/2007, -17/+5There's nothing "ultra" about them. They are simply devout and obeying Allah's command. Since her act was against Islam, she effectively became a non-Muslim, and under Islamic law anyone who abandons his or her faith in Islam must be killed.

      There was nothing extreme or radical about the way these men acted. What they were doing was Islamically correct. Women are property in Islam, and must not be allowed to break free from the grip of their masters.

      (Cue some apologist to come along and tell me that this is "cultural" and not Islamic - spare your worthless words; this particular infidel knows his Islam)
    • noahhoward, on 10/11/2007, -5/+1NegaMuslim
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -6/+9Sorry Funkmachine... they are not obeying Allah's (God) command. They've violated their religion. There is no Islamic text that advocates or implies "honor killings". This is purely a cultural perversion of Islam. These people were acting of their own accord AGAINST Islam.
    • funkmachine, on 10/11/2007, -6/+4@zenryan

      Please read what I wrote.

      I stated that since her act was AGAINST Islam, sufficiently in this case, she had basically left Islam and the penalty for leaving Islam is death, so what these people did was Islamic. If she actualy believed in Allah and all the supremacist crap, then she wouldn't have doen what she did, and would have still been a Muslim, and would still be alive.

      So, although the Qu'ran does not advocate death for "wayward" women (in the Islamic sense), it does advocate death for apostacy, which is arguably what she had commited.
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+8@Funkmachine...

      Your interpretation is incorrect. Muslims sin all the time. It doesn't mean they have left Islam. It means they have to make Tauba (which is like repentence). People can give you Nasiha (Islamic moral advice) but no one (not a father, or otherwise) can murder someone for kissing... fornication... or otherwise. Now, let's suppose her father took the same interpretation as you... that doesn't make him justified... it just make him wrong. Where are you getting your facts? See http://www.sunnipath.com/ to learn more about Islam.
  • funkmachine, on 10/11/2007, -10/+8Slowly, slowly, people realise that they can't hide behind their superior peecee sophistication when denying that Islam is anything but peaceful.
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -4/+12Who made this guy the ambassador of Islam??? I never voted for him. The guy represent those who have ignored guidance and gone on the path of arrogance and destruction.
    • funkmachine, on 10/11/2007, -9/+2@zenryan

      I'm guessing by your choice of words that you have some form of Islamic background, in which case it really does not matter what you say.
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6@funkmachine

      I don't just have an "Islamic background", I am a Muslim. Therefore my comments are actually relevant because I am a full fledged 5-times-a-day praying Muslim who can give you and other people an accurate perspective on a religion that they may not know much about or may be misinformed of. I'm just disagreeing with you. Please don't take it the wrong way. This is a public forum for anyone to share ideas, etc. No hard feelings dude!
    • labmouse42, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@funkmachine

      I hate to break it to you man but Christianity is not really hanging on the hippie tree either.
      I grew up in the deep south where I was told "Your going to hell cuz' you got long hair!'

      Does that mean that every Christian is a bible thumping southern baptist? No.
      Does it mean that the Christian religion (overall a good religion) has its bad apples? Yes.
    • StormTrooperVII, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2"Who made this guy the ambassador of Islam??? I never voted for him"

      Reminds me of South Park:

      Stan Marsh: [about his dad saying the n word on Wheel of Fortune] Dude, its okay. My dad apologized to Jesse Jackson and he accepted it.
      Token: Jesse Jackson is not the Emperor of black people!
      Stan Marsh: He told my dad he was!
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@funk
      So because Zan is Muslim, that invalidates what he says? Oh yeah, you're open. Seriously, WTF? Don't you think a Muslim might be able to educate us about his views on his religion, and how it differs from the perversion of those who use religion in order to assert power? Or do you just digg him down because he's religious?
  • TecHeavy, on 10/11/2007, -6/+4We will never understand their culture. Reading this article made me want to puke, these people are of a different kind and that's why the war on "Terrorism" will never end. They don't think like us, they don't live like us, what makes us think that they can be like us?
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -5/+10Muslims don't want to "be like you". We are quite content to have our own identity. Muslims want to please God by enjoining in good things and forbidding evil deeds. Please don't be misled by this news article. If you want to know about Muslims, go to a Mosque (they are all open to the public) or watch some of these videos:

      http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ummahfilms
    • VintageMud, on 10/11/2007, -5/+2They can't.

      Maybe there's something to this "ethnic cleansing" idea after all... If they can't be civilized, leave each other alone, and leave the rest of the world alone, then tough *****. They brought it on themselves. Extermination is the only answer.

      They're sooo convinced that we're out to get them, well, let's give them what they want!
    • Ahnteis, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3He didn't say "Muslims". He said "These people". And I absolutely agree -- these particular people aren't like us. They somehow think that this killing is OK.
    • Muyoso, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4Its nice to post youtube videos showing positive muslim things, but most dont realize that all of the videos which are critical of islam are removed in a concentrated effort by muslims on youtube.
    • lukehh, on 10/11/2007, -0/+21. Reading this article also made me want to puke

      2. "These People" are persons. They are human persons. The person that did this, and any person that condones this is disgusting. And are human. Humans do things like this. That sucks.

      3. How you choose to fight this (if you want to) is your choice. The simple way is to say us and them. "with us or against us" as someone once put it. This makes for a pretty good fight. I'm not sure it's one you can win though, without well, methods that are worse than killing the girl described.

      4. A way that might be seem a bit more complicated is not to be tolerant of this sad act of murder - Or any such acts that rip basic human rights from people such as the 20 year old girl in the story. Do not be tolerant of those persons who claim divinity to do as they please, killing, raping bombing, invading etc. Also do not be tolerant of those who claim higher moral ground to do as they please, killing, raping bombing, invading etc. Judge by just action not just cause.
    • labmouse42, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2@muyoso
      "but most dont realize that all of the videos which are critical of islam are removed in a concentrated effort by muslims on youtube"

      Careful, your tin foil hat is not on straight :D
  • PamalaLauren, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10In the end it all comes down to the person. It's the person's fault this happens. Not religion. Blaming it on religion removes the responsibility that should be placed on the person who did this. He was obviously taught something that he chose to follow. Remember it's all a choice. No one is forcing these people to follow these beliefs. It's too bad these people don't educate themselves either on their own religion too. But you'll find that many people don't educate themselves. But no matter what religion this man was, it's on him for what he did.
    • mtalon, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6That's the most rational response to something like this I've read on the internet. Doesn't matter if you're atheist, Christian, Muslim, or Pastafarian. The father, not the religion he follows, is the one responsible. Anything else is a cop out or a generalization.
  • straylightrise, on 10/11/2007, -10/+4There is no way you can't blame Islam and the Arab murder culture for this
  • zebbie, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Crazy ***** humans is more like it.
  • gtchen66, on 10/11/2007, -1/+18Buried as inaccurate. The title says father. That's not a father, just a sperm donor.
  • fnaqzna, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Hmmm... maybe I'm just having trouble with the writing style, but I've read and re-read the article trying to find the outcome of the trial. Did I miss something?
  • xatx4, on 10/11/2007, -8/+2was she hot
    • Psalms, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Xatx4- does your mommy know you're on digg?
  • Psalms, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Religion is easily corrupted; It can be a power for peace, or for violence, and in any case we haven't seen the last of it, not in a thousand years. Saying religion is the cause of all the problems in the world and insisting that athiests are so immaculately perfect seems a bit far-fetched. Like a previous poster said- if it wasn't for religion, we'd find another reason to stab the ***** out of one another. I'm pretty sure I could.
  • skidd666, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Im Christian and I agree with zenyran on this,its not Islam,its just some followers are ***** in their heads!
    • grassrootz, on 10/11/2007, -8/+3I agree with you completey just not the way you worded it.

      Im so puzzled you would call yourself a Christian and then use that kind of language. Isn't to be a Christian to be Christ-Like? Is that something Jesus would say?
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3@somedigger5

      The "West" just seems ahead of the "East". This is a typical Orientalist perspective. Islam (for example) has a rich history in medicine, mathematics, philosophy and psychology (to name a few areas) that have existed for hundreds of years. Google how much of the Europe's Renaissance was influenced by Islamic thinkers.
    • tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@zen
      True. For a while the East was "ahead" of the West and trade with the East certainly helped spark the end of the Dark Ages and the Renaissance in the West. However, now the developed world is pretty much the West, while most of the East seems to be developing. I'm not very familiar with Eastern history, but I'm not sure why the East never underwent the social, cultural, economic, and political revolutions the West did. They seemed stuck in time for a while, like the Romans, who had city populations that exceeded all other Western cities until the Industrial Revolution, but never underwent an Industrial Revolution of their own.
  • dwiezel, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Murder your child for a kiss -- a sign of affection and love? This is another example of the insanity that rules fanatical-extremist Islamists -- the Prophet Mohammed would protected this girl himself from such a heinous crime! These people want to create hell on earth to match the hell they are going to for all the atrocities that they have committed in the name of GOD!
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6This guy just tried to justify his actions. Islam does not condone this action. Had he gone to a knowledgable Muslim, local scholar... or anyone with common sense and decency, they would have told him how wrong he is.
    • dwiezel, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@zen...

      I believe that you are correct! Who will stop the cycle of ignorance and violence?
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3@dwiezel

      There are a lot of non-profit Islamic organization trying to educate Muslims about their own religions, and furthermore how parents can work to understand their children and have open lines of communication for their own mutual benefit. http://www.cair-net.org/ is an example.
    • willowreed, on 10/11/2007, -1/+0you mean in the name of "their god" because mine wouldn't ask that of anyone.
  • thedarkrabbit, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4The video about this is on Cnn.com right now... they interview her boyfriend... he is so much in love with her, it makes this far worse than just stupidity.

    It sickens me that people can be so stupid and blinded by their intolerance to EVERYTHING...

    Her father should be jailed for the rest of his life... but even that is too good for him I think.
    • dwiezel, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Execute him and his corroborators for this most vicious murder!

      They will only understand the error of their ways when they have to pay the ultimate price!
  • zenerdiode, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16Such a sad story. As a 1st-Gen immigrant to the US, I can never understand why some of these immigrants hold on SO strongly to their culture that clashes with the culture that embraced them and allowed them to enjoy the fruits and labors of people who have lived there for so much longer.

    I'm not talking about giving up prayers and such or other traditions that can be done in the privacy of your own surroundings. I'm talking about traditions that affect those around you and those that demand others adapt to YOUR way of life. It should be the other way around...you should adapt to the American (or in this case British) way of life. And if you can't handle the way Westerners dress, perhaps you should go back to your own country where the least of your concerns is how you're dressed.

    I'm going to continue to go to the altar in my family room to light an incense or two to honor my ancestors, but I'm not going to march the streets to wave a Vietnam flag, demand women start wearing Ao Dai (Vietnamese long dresses for women...which actually look pretty hot and revealing), and calling for the formation of a Communist party. Despite all the bitchin' I do about BushCo and the war, when I signed on the dotted line on the Naturalization Certificate, I became an American--a fact I am proud of and embrace.
    • Mier, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Welcome to the US glad to have you.
    • lukehh, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1when reality sets in down there, Canada is always arms open for you.

    • Veritate, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Awesome post -- and remember that America isn't something that just assimilates people, we also appreciate others bringing the positive aspects of their cultures. I'll hope for Ao Dai to become fashionable.


      @lukehh,

      Well, as long as you like cold arms ;)
    • dwiezel, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2Same for me!

      Welcome and may GOD bless you!

      There are many like you that we do not hear about in the media.
    • zenerdiode, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1@lukehh

      I would if it weren't for your "wait 2 months just to see a doctor" universal health care system and hockey obsession :P

      Plus, I HATE Poutine. It's almost as bad as eating fries with mayonnaise, eh?

      @veritate

      Certainly, but I'd rather influence American culture with cuisine than religion. mmmm....pho and spring rolls.....
    • lukehh, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@ veritate
      that's what the arms are for: to warm up! ;)

      @zenerdiode
      playing hockey and eating Poutine keeps you healthy and out of the hospital! we got'er all figured out eh?



    • paris922, on 10/11/2007, -1/+0Yes, Welcome. Glad you are here.
  • RavagesOfTime, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I couldn't possibly imagine someone justifying this. I almost want someone on digg to come and try and not get dugg down so quickly. Just so we could all read and see how far from reality they are.
  • adacas, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Religion isn't a problem. It doesn't cause wars or make people kill each other. It is the same argument like how guns kill people. Guns do not kill people. People with guns kill people. Humans have a choice to follow a rational course in their lives. That man knows that killing somebody is wrong but instead he found a rule some idiot made up so he could get over his insecurity. Religions also do not start wars. Those in power use religion as a tool to get people to rally against their enemies. Think along the lines of the crusades. Religion had very little to do with it. In the end it was about grabbing power in the middle east. I'm sure all of those rich trade routes had nothing to do with their decision to go to war. Same thing with the Muslims in Iraq. They could all get along just fine if they wanted to. Hell a lot of them got along just fine before we ousted Saddam but leaders in the area are fighting for power. Not because religion told them to. Also have you seen where the major sects are all located in Iraq? The Kurds have oil. The Shiite's have oil but the Sunni may be cut out of the deal since their major populated regions sit on very little oil. Tell me that their leaders don't have this in mind when they send someone out to bomb a Shiite mosque. Hell even Bush uses religion for his own means. He's had a hand in killing thousands of people. Don't tell me he believes in Christian values. All it takes is for somebody to say that God wills it and those not smart enough to see the truth will follow along. Religion is a great tool to use but like all tools it can be used for a different means than what we intend it for.
  • squirrelza, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6When Bekhal, an older sister, wore Western dress her father called her a whore, beat her and demanded that she wear the veil < What an *****.
  • meretricis, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3@thepeacemaker
    Islam doesn't condone these acts but easily embraces it's perversion to further a weak minded ideology of man vs women, it doesn't allow for an open dialogue of theology and therefor IS barbaric. Believing otherwise is justifying the perversion not the truth. Religion is the sum of it's followers, when a majority follows the perversion rather than the beauty you have a weak religion that cannot move forward.

    I do not believe that tolerance should be given to religious based traditions that encourage violence under the guise of honor. I say we use the same book they do, AN EYE FOR AN EYE! but only in this case.
    • zenryan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3@ meretricis

      I understand that from an outside view, Islam seems sexist, barbaric, etc. In a nutshell, men and women in Islam both have unique obligations (in Islam). When you learn all of the rights a wife has over her husband and vice-versa, you can see how Islam can benefit a married couple by creating a framework to clarify obligations and settle disputes lovingly. I don't have the time to give you an exhaustive list, but I'll give you one example. As a husband, I must provide for all my wives needs in life. That's the rule. My wife is currently a student, but when she graduates, she'll probably make more money than me. That money will be hers to spend as she see's fit. Now, Islam also says that people should give generously to charity. So, God willing, she will earn many blessings and give generously.
  • kahakauai, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Done in the name of religion...

    Who is to say that every religion is right... or wrong? Everyone believes that "their" religion holds the only truth. How can you possibly believe that everything religious, which ultimately is written by MAN, is void from error, sin, or any hint of misguidance, and protects the truth to all things universally? And to wholeheartedly believe that killing for beliefs set forth by your all knowing, all forgiving, perfect "religion" is acceptable...

    ***** that...
    • nblsavage, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6As far as religion goes...I think mankind only needs one guideline - "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" If we can get the hang of that, our future might be a little less...bloody.
    • kaiser44, on 10/11/2007, -4/+2If a Religion includes men kneeling with his nose 6-12" from the ***** of another man and thinks that some douche bag named Mohammad and Allah give some of the believers even the hint that this may be acceptable behavior,
      'honor killing" and the rest of the religion does not rise up and put a stop to it.
      Well , I feel nothing but contempt for all who try to justify it or look the other way.
      Please clean up your ***** religion, it is disgraceful.
  • nblsavage, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Religion is used as an excuse for bad behavour. Want to discrimiate against some group? "Hey my (insert holy book here) says that (insert group I don't like) is evil." Want to kill people you don't agree with? Take large sums of money? Hey religion is just the ticket!
  • kranberry, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7It's not just Islam.

    However, if it is possible to separate culture from religion, then I suggest it's more religion than culture.

    Case in point, my mother-in-law tells the story of how a Catholic priest tried to have the Lutheran (i.e., non-Catholic) boyfriend of a girl in his parish killed. He rounded up other good Catholic boys and tried to drown him. Fortunately, they didn't succeed.

    Explain how this is different.

    • willowreed, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Seems to me that the other religions nowadays (not in the middle ages/dark ages) seem to not kill as much as the Muslims. Seems to me that *maybe* whatever it is about their culture, breeds violence.

      Maybe someone can stop it? Who knows. Maybe it will take another hundred years for it to stop.
    • kaiser44, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2yeah, ***** those barbarian Lutherans, trying to horn dog in on our Catholic bitches.
  • AdrianLP, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2To say religion is to blame is ridiculous. Christ taught that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. Christ and God taught that if we sustain and build up one another, we can become joint-heirs with them, and have eternal joy.

    If some nut-job (or groups of them) interprets that to mean, "I should murder them because they kissed in a public street", then said nut job isn't living what God taught in the first place (the only "religion" is doing what God and Christ taught, the rest are just fan clubs).

    If you want to blame religion, at least blame the organized religions which have perverted the teachings of the prophets (Note: not all churches have).
    • dwiezel, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5JESUS CHRIST did not teach religion. In fact, he preached against the "religious" of HIS day -- the white washed walls -- pharisees and sadducees. HIS message is a message of AGAPE Love for GOD and humankind, Truth, Wisdom, Compassion and responsible Stewardship. Religion is what human beings have to used to justify wars, murder, strife, greed, lust and violence. They twist it whatever ways they desire for their own means.
    • zyl0x, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2"the only "religion" is doing what God and Christ taught, the rest are just fan clubs"

      You sir, are a ***** bigot.
    • AdrianLP, on 10/11/2007, -2/+0zyl0x,

      A bigot? No. God's house is a house of order, he is not the author of confusion. God put in place a sacred temples and ordinances that were to be performed for man which had eternal significance. With the deaths of the prophets, and the apostasy which Christ spoke of, men begin to pervert the ordinances taught to us through the prophets. I mean just look at the Nicene Creed, it brought us such perversions as the trinity (which did not exist previously).

      In ancient times men believed the world to be flat. As much as they believed it though, there was only one truth, whether men chose to believe it or not.
  • kolobcreek, on 10/11/2007, -4/+2ALA hates girls who kiss boys.
  • discourse, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6this has nothing to do with religion! this is all about a stupid cultural obsession and sexism!!!
  • gab00n, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2Bush and his puppet masters will destroy Islam and practically all other religions as well, I can't wait.
    • labmouse42, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2And when is Indonesia on that list?
      After all, they are Islamic barbarians!
      Oh wait, their our ally....

      Damnit, how is Mr. Bush gonna work his way out of that one?
  • AWBoy666, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4*****......this article made me so sad and so angry. They all deserve to die. Anyone who believes in this ***** deserves to die. I don't give a *****: Kill them all.
  • TheToecutter, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1The End of Faith by Sam Harris.

    Read it.
  • pentomino, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

    We need the guy who said that.
  • Mier, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2The more I see these stories I don't know if we should allow these people the honor of living amongst us. There was an article on digg a day or so ago by a woman reporter living in Saudi Arabia. She did well at writing her discomfort of living in such a oppressive environment because I even felt oppressed.

    These people need to be dragged from the 7th century beliefs and show they can be pious in a modern setting without punishing others for their wicked thoughts. At the very least they should be told on entry into our countries that we don't tolerate this crap and if they don't like it they can go back. Assimilate or if you break our laws by following "tradition" and you will be punished with prison for lesser crimes or execution if you murder.
  • discourse, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4here's a video of the girl before she was murdered: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=35c_1181586866

    • willowreed, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Thanks for the liveleak link..she was a beautiful young woman. I wish that her father gets what's coming to him.
  • max420, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3Crazy muslims... And yes, the world WOULD be better off without ANY religion.
  • yiffzer, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4@liam

    "Heaven lies at the feet of mothers." -Prophet Muhammad.

    Though it may seem like women are degraded, they should definitely not be. It is the cultural effect, not religion.
    • kaiser44, on 10/11/2007, -4/+4you are preaching to the wrong crowd, go back to the middle east and start.
      We do not need the lesson, and as long as you are going take the whacked out believers with you.
      Maybe you could even become a Imam ,I hear you do not need any specific qualities to do that.
  • HubbertWins, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I dunno, but it is really hard to fathom exactly what the hell is going through the minds of morons like this. Crazy? Ignorant? Both?
  • jamesob, on 10/11/2007, -5/+0***** Muslims.
  • Ibanezfoo, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Buried for sappy over dramatic title.
  • djdole, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7FTA: “We are Muslim and Kurdish. We are not like the English where you can be boyfriend and girlfriend.”

    I don't care who you are or what religion you practice or don't practice; when you move to or visit another country you are agreeing to abide by the rules and laws of that country.
    While people in Iraq may have ***** a brick at the kiss, I guarantee you that no one in their right mind in the UK would have.
    Lock the dude up and throw away the key. (or better yet, find a ba'athist party member and hand him over to those who HE was afraid of.)
    • labmouse42, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Culture no...
      Laws yes..

      The man committed murder of the 1st degree.
      I can only hope that he's prosecuted in a location where he can get the chair.
    • Aleksander, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@Rjune

      But you have to follow the laws...

      dang beat me to it Labmouse...
  • orangetiki, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2Pride truly is the downfall of society.
  • PamalaLauren, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3This story reminded me of a Law and Order that was on, on Sunday. The brother killed his sister because she dishonored the family by dating a boy they didn't like. In the end it's all just very sad.
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