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See the original image at examiner.com —

Hate Crime? You decide.

examiner.com — Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket, police said. “She had eye muscles that were damaged,” a police report states. Greene said the investigation into the incident was ongoing and she didn’t know whether the attack had anything to do with the victim’s race...

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  • McGuinness, on 12/07/2007, -24/+771Didnt know whether the attack had anything to do with the victim's race? Lets not be naive here! Lets turn this around for a second. An African American man sits down on a bus where 9 caucasian teenagers tell her he cant sit (anywhere). When this African American man does sit down he's beaten so bad he has to be taken to the hospital. What would we call it then? HATE CRIME. And then Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be at this mans bedside in the hospital within an hour of it happening, preaching to the media and the world about this travesty.

    RACISM. ALL OF IT.
    • aschocobo, on 12/07/2007, -4/+34http://tinyurl.com/24cu7u
      a more detailed story. doesn't excuse what happened (not that anything can), but it does go into more depth.
      • btgoss, on 12/07/2007, -1/+31Better link, thank you. I am finding it hard to believe a group of teens would try to fight someone who pulled a knife on them, so that part of the story just doesn't seem to make sense, so I am calling BS on that part. Also, saying the woman started it just seems hard to believe. I hope they can find out what happened, and this can be used to hopefully make some real changes in our society.
        • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -24/+12Just because you won't fight a guy with a knife doesn't mean that no one would. Both sides obviously have reason to blame the other. I would like to know what the bus driver has to say about it since he/she would be the most neutral party involved.
          • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -17/+5And of course I'm getting buried for trying to remain neutral. Why am I not surprised.
          • jftitan, on 12/07/2007, -0/+5unfortunately I think the bus driver will be almost useless. In his/her regard, had to keep an eye on the road and not pay attention to the people in the bus. BUT when the confrontation started the driver noticed, and immediately called police. It comes down to what the driver can remember when he/she first heard the voices of the fight.

            I agree... both sides of the story is going to have to be figured out. Each kid is going to attempt to collaborate a story, but once its clear to the police who is telling the truth, that is when I want to hear the rest of this event. For right now, both sides are blaming each other. One side lost. period.
          • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -8/+4We will see. Even if the bus driver did not see anything, he/she may have heard something that would help. I also wonder if there was anyone else on the bus at the time. Neither article says definitively that there was or was not.

            Thanks to anyone who dugg my original comment back up. Its good to see that there are some people who want justice over revenge.
          • EditorResponse, on 12/08/2007, -1/+12http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ab7a4b04168.ht ...
            Each year, some 1.2 million violent crimes involving blacks and whites occur nationwide. In fully 90 percent of those cases, according to U.S. Justice Department figures, the perpetrators are black and the victims are white. Violent white felons choose black victims for fewer than 3 percent of their attacks, whereas violent black felons choose white victims about 56 percent of the time. Statistically, the "average" African American is an astonishing 56 times more likely to attack a white than vice versa. In one recent year, approximately 100 black women were raped by white men; the corresponding number of white women raped by black men was over 20,000, according to Dinesh D’Souza in The End of Racism.
          • EditorResponse, on 12/08/2007, -2/+14Table 43 is a nationwide table and the numbers would be 10% to 20% higher if I used table 49 which was for cities.

            Source: FBI: Table 43
            http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_43.html

            African Americans are 12% of the U.S. population yet commit:
            50% of all murder
            39% of all violent crime
            56% of all robbery
            29% of all burglary
            29% of all larceny-theft
            35% of all motor vehicle theft
            30% of all fraud
            41% of all weapons related crimes
            39% of all prostitution
            72% of all gambling crimes

            Arrests of adults for murder were nearly equal between white and black arrestees, with 50.0 percent being black, and 47.7 percent being white.
        • ozid, on 12/07/2007, -5/+4If I was on a bus with nine of my friends and somebody pulled a knife on one of them, at the very least, i'd get the knife away from him. If I had to cause bodily harm, I probably would.

          If she spit on somebody, I doubt it was the first move. Baltimore is a terrible city. Unfortunately, when I was that age I was a menace to normal people too.
        • diggitydoc, on 12/07/2007, -1/+15all im saying, is if my girlfriend or female friend and i were being assaulted by 9 people, of whatever age, and i had a knife.....
          SOMEONE would have been stabbed... there are just too many people around not to happen to stab someone.
          • superal1394, on 12/08/2007, -0/+2hell, i would have used whatever was on me, be it keys, pen, anything some what sharp
        • MorbenDK, on 12/07/2007, -0/+20http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.m ...

          "Maryland Transit Administration Police said last night that they have found no evidence that the severe beating of a 26-year-old woman on a city bus this week was provoked and that they are investigating the attack as a possible racially motivated hate crime."

        • felchdonkey, on 12/08/2007, -1/+11FTA:
          "But the mother of one of the suspects says the victim, for an unknown reason, provoked the attack by spitting in the face of one of the girls. Beverly Bell, whose son is an eighth-grader at Robert Poole, said the victim's boyfriend then pulled out a knife and threatened the girls, which prompted the boys to attack the man."

          I actually laughed out loud when I read that. Right. A white girl is going to get on a bus in inner city Baltimore and just spit on some black kids for no reason, then her white boyfriend is going to pull a knife on them.
          I understand that mothers want to believe their children, but even this woman had to see what a load of ***** her kid had come up with.
        • zeusthemoose, on 12/08/2007, -1/+2+1 flechdonkey. There is no way in hell the boyfriend pulled a knife on these kids.
      • CedEx, on 12/07/2007, -0/+57You would think that if the guy pulled out a knife according to the article, that perhaps the suspects would have knife wounds?
        • felchdonkey, on 12/08/2007, -0/+5And maybe the police would have found a knife on him?
      • sequalls, on 12/07/2007, -1/+53The 9 kids are trying to justify why they jumped and beat 1 woman, not suprising. Their explanation does not sound credible.
      • mcduckov, on 12/07/2007, -33/+4Actually if it is true it DOES excuse the beating. If you spit on someone and your friend pulls a knife then the person you're pointing the knife can not only beat you but can use deadly force if necessary.

        Of course we don't know all the details so who can say.
        • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -18/+2And you get buried for trying not to judge until you know the whole story too. Wow. I never knew digg had so many reactionary people who liked to issue a sentence before having a trial.
          • mcduckov, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1Weird, of all the posts I've made I would not have expected that one to get -28. But maybe no one read the link posted that says the woman who was beaten spit on someone and then her boyfriend pulled a knife. All I was suggesting is that IF that is what happened then they had a beating, or worse, coming to them. If I'm on a bus and someone comes over to spit on me and then pulls a knife I would consider the use of deadly force 100% appropriate.

            The truth may be somewhere in-between. The boyfriend may have pulled the knife AFTER being threatened or AFTER being assaulted. These facts all change the picture dramatically and rushing to judgment is foolish.
        • jamima69z, on 12/07/2007, -2/+15uh huh,try using that defense in court.



          • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -10/+3It has been used and it was successful. In most, if not all, states you can justifiably kill someone if they are armed with a weapon that may kill you (like a knife, baseball bat or car) and are doing things that lead you to believe that they are about to attack you. Here is an example of a guy who shot and killed another guy when he thought he was about to be attacked with a baseball bat: http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4150420&nav ...
        • jftitan, on 12/07/2007, -1/+3Not if the kid without a knife is UNDERAGE. It still does not make it fair.

          However, I do believe the stories of each kid is not going to collaborate with each other. Either way. It was not a fair fight. 9 against 1 (and apparently the boyfriend was useless because he should have taken the beating, not his girlfriend)
        • MadOgre, on 12/08/2007, -1/+3Spitting, swearing, threatening... that doesn't justify physical violence.
      • Bridea, on 12/07/2007, -0/+39I'm calling BS on the knife part. If there was a weapon found, you'd think the police and media would make that known.
      • ximinez, on 12/07/2007, -0/+41My wife was a middle school teacher for a while. From her experiences, I can say with > 90% confidence that the kids are lying through their teeth.
        • zeusthemoose, on 12/08/2007, -1/+5A friend of mine was attacked by two black guys because he lifted up his shirt when he was hot. We called security and turned them in. They were able to track down the black individuals. They then told the security officers that we called them "*****" and I had to undergo a three hour questioning period where I was threatened to be expelled from school due to hate crimes. Case in point, racist black people will lie through their teeth (note the racist part, the large majority of black people are very nice and act just like anybody else). They behave in sub-human ways and will never fit in with normal society.
          • mcduckov, on 12/09/2007, -2/+1It is white people going to dangerous neighborhoods to buy drugs. As in most things it is a situation driven more by economics than race. Poor people tend to commit more crimes and are more likely to sell drugs. People need to stop blaming things on race when the correlation between crime and poverty is the same regardless of race. There just happens to be more poor blacks.

            And like it or not a part of poverty is how much wealth passed on by ancestors. Black people had a lower starting point and so far no one has figured out a way to even that out so there are more poor blacks. One strategy that has promise is to make it possible for poor people to afford college. Unfortunately that strategy has been starved of funds for decades.
      • caederus, on 12/07/2007, -0/+35Recent stories from both newspapers cite the police investigation looking at the security video from the bus which shows no spitting and no knife.
        • drmangrum, on 12/07/2007, -1/+20HA, I have the ***** get tried as adults and for attempted murder.
    • ncc74656m, on 12/07/2007, -5/+179You're not actually SURPRISED about the long standing double-standard in the prosecution of bias and race crimes, are you?

      I hate to burst the bubble here, but this has been going on forever. In 8th grade, I got jumped by three black kids for NO reason. They were in my school, and that was the only thing I knew of them (which I learned AFTER the fact). The only reason that I didn't get beaten more severely (they were stomping on my head by the time it was done) was that three guys in the house that we were in front of came running out and threw them off me, and they couldn't catch them.

      And you know what the best part is? I still hate them. Not black people. Them. The little SOBs that did that to me. That's all. It's funny how I'll go through life being ok, and they'll go through life one (prison) sentence at a time.

      Nobody I knew could give me any reason why it happened. When my dad came in with me the next day, the principal, to our faces, said "Eh, kids will be kids, what can I do?"

      My dad offered him a simpler solution, that was that he would simply send in a couple of the younger Mexican workers from the company he worked for to the school, find the kid, and take care of him. All of a sudden, the principal agreed that the best thing to do was to call the police and press charges against the kids. Go figure.
      • chucali, on 12/07/2007, -9/+131So the moral of the story is...get mexicans to jump blacks for you?
        • cgm1985, on 12/07/2007, -6/+12lol
        • thebaron2, on 12/07/2007, -2/+26Mexicans or Puerto-Ricans.. either will work.
        • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -6/+9"The bus dispute is the most recent in a series of local fights involving teenagers.

          Late last month, a brawl in Edgewood left a man paralyzed after he was assaulted with a baseball bat and kicked by at least six juveniles, according to Harford County sheriff's deputies.

          A few weeks earlier, city and schools police arrested 22 girls involved in a melee that sent one student to the hospital with minor injuries after a high school football game at M&T Bank Stadium."

          Maybe it really doesn't have to do with race and is just a series of "gang" violence or teens being jerks?
        • drmangrum, on 12/07/2007, -3/+21Old joke but:

          Mexican Judo man.
          Judo know if they have a knife. Judo know if they have gun. Judo know ***** about them esse.
      • amonroy, on 12/07/2007, -22/+7No doubt they did something bad, but from your story doesn't seem obvious that they attacked you because you are white and they were black.
        I don't understand how race has anything to do with what those kids did to you. If they had been white would it be any different?
        • jamima69z, on 12/07/2007, -4/+24the point is that if you reversed the colors of the people involved,the media,police,and judicial system would be yelling "bias crime !!" from the rooftops.
      • gettophilosophr, on 12/07/2007, -3/+41That's sort of the point of this whole sad commentary....if he had been black, and the kids had been white, it would have been RACISM. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would have done a press conference 30 minutes later in front of that house decrying the horrible racism in America and the white power structure that ruins young, promising black men's lives like today. They'd be calling for the white kids' to be arrested immediately, they'd be organizing protests, marches, and a media frenzy.

        And no one would stop to ask "...so it's because he's black?".

        Case in point: in LA a while back, some black teenager (I don't remember his age off the top of my head) stole an Cadillac Escalade, specifically one with very darkly-tinted windows. He goes on a joy ride. The cops pursue him, and he ends up stuck down a cul-de-sac. Cop cars surround him, police get out, guns drawn and order that he get out of the car. The idiot decides to throw it in reverse and try to bash the cars out of the way/run over the officers. There were 8-10 of them or something (this is off the top of my head), and policy said that they could shoot a moving car that was being used as a weapon, so they did. All of them. They did what they were trained to do, and emptied their clips into the car (so you have something like 110 rounds fired in a few short seconds).

        They open the door, and oops, it's a black kid. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton show up....etc. Policy is changed, people get reprimanded, it's a big hoopla. No one gave a damn that the same exact thing happened 6 months before in Malibu. Why? Because that kid was a long haired blond hippie. Who cares if he's white? That was a justified shooting. Shooting a tinted-out car that is currently trying to run you over? Now that's racism.
        • Btzarro, on 12/07/2007, -38/+3Spread your right-wing rhetoric at stormfront,Righttard.
          • neutrascrub, on 12/07/2007, -0/+19I thought leftists were supposed to have an open mind.
          • zeusthemoose, on 12/08/2007, -3/+6You are an idiot Btzarro. I happen to be leftist and I am appalled by the behavior of young black kids today. Many of them do not behave in a civilized manner. To top that off, you have Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton spreading their hate everywhere.
      • Btzarro, on 12/07/2007, -22/+2***** off back to stormfront,Fatass.
    • delmar14, on 12/07/2007, -11/+144Jesse Jackson is a racist thug.
    • BlueScreenOD, on 12/07/2007, -60/+9Are you serious? There is no evidence whatsoever that race had anything to do with this. Maybe it was a group of punk kids who were pissed because they thought they owned the back of the bus or something. Maybe some nasty words were exchanged. Maybe it was a mugging gone awry.

      You cry "foul" every time a black person claims "hate crime" when they're assaulted by a white person, but then turn around and do the same thing when it happens vice-versa. Get all the facts before you get on your soap box and sensationalize a story you know too little about to make a conclusion.
      • brianjlowry, on 12/07/2007, -3/+429 black kids. 1 white victim. Get real.
        • BlueScreenOD, on 12/07/2007, -20/+4So? In a predominantly black neighborhood, you're likely to see *gasp* predominantly black people! Are you saying that it's automatically an issue of race if a white person gets assaulted in an area like that? Please.
          • FriskDown, on 12/07/2007, -1/+22It's automatically an issue of race if a black person gets assaulted by white people- wherever this occurs. They call it a hate crime. THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT. Please.
          • brianjlowry, on 12/07/2007, -0/+8Crap, you're right. I'm wrong. Wait... what was the motive again? She took their seats the previous week, right?
          • acidbass, on 12/08/2007, -1/+2You are a racist, racists always fail. give up now.
        • thebaron2, on 12/07/2007, -2/+6According to how these things have been historically treated, and according to the mighty Jesse Jackson and Rev. Sharpton when incidents like this occur, yes.
      • bluto36, on 12/07/2007, -3/+16apologist idiot you are
        • BlueScreenOD, on 12/07/2007, -6/+2Yea? You speak like Yoda and your last comment was:

          "since i am a ninja-pirate that is related to chuck norris, i just ninja over to him and go pirate on his ass! "

          I really don't think you have the qualifications to comment on the intelligence of anyone above the age of 15.
      • drmangrum, on 12/07/2007, -1/+17And if the roles were reversed? Double standard. Go ***** yourself.
      • TalenGTP, on 12/08/2007, -1/+9You're an idiot. If the situation were reversed, it would be all you heard tonight on the evening news. The black woman would be held in the light of Rosa Parks, and there would be a million man march to see the 9 white kids put away forever, not to mention countless civil law suits. There would be no investigation to see "whether the attack had anything to do with the victim’s race."

        RACISM IS NOT A ONE WAY STREET!
        • zeusthemoose, on 12/08/2007, -0/+4Amen brother. This is something that many black community leaders (Jessie Jackson and the likes) need to get through their thick skulls.
      • biotch, on 12/08/2007, -3/+4Especially because it occurred in the back of a bus. I have seen black youths claim the back of the bus from time to time. Though I dont claim to fully understand it, it has to do with how blacks were once forced to ride in the back if a white person requested it. I think its kind of like the use of the N-word. It was used ubiquitously against blacks for a period of time so it feels empowering to take it and keep it from anyone else.
        Ive also seen black youths claim the back of a bus and start chanting "fight fight fight... ***** and the white, if the white dont win, they all jump in" over and over and over.
        Unfortunately youths dont understand, that behavior does more to harm their cause than to help it.
    • soulknowledge, on 12/07/2007, -7/+28This is ***** stupid... I hate the Al Sharpto/Jesse Jackson argument... just because mainstream media (which is mostly *****) pays attention to them doesnt mean they're spokesmen for the Black race...

      The real thing here isn't "Is this a hate crime?"... The problem is having the title "Hate Crime"... I get it... race is super important to America for some archaic reason and somehow we can't get over it... Dude... Americans should know better at this point in our country's development yet somehow we dont... open your ***** eyes... stop feeding into the BS and maybe we wont need a category of crime based on differences....

      I didnt hit all my points but I didnt want to make this super long
      • markusfarkus, on 12/07/2007, -2/+12Thank you. Someone always brings up Jesse and Al as if they took a poll from all black Americans and then made a decision to speak. That's like saying Ann Coulter is the voice of the conservative white American.

        I also agree on the "hate crime" nonsense. This was a senseless crime. The attackers should be punished. Their punishment should have nothing to do with race or bias.
      • Mr.RX99, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1Who says there even can be a "spokesmen for the Black race?" The phrase contains the insinuation that all African-American experience is the same, that all of them can be grouped under one category, an insinuation which is indeed indeed racist. Much in the same way that concluding that all violence committed by one group against another (either way) is a hate crime is.
        Not attacking your comment (it looks as if you'd agree with me), just pointing it out to others.
      • Delusionist, on 12/08/2007, -0/+2Don't you know? Jesse Jackson is the emperor of black people.
      • metrenome, on 12/08/2007, -1/+2Your statement would be valid except for one point: the media does pay attention to Jesse and Al, therefore whenever they speak the media is there spreading their word to everyone else. So in a sense, yes, they are spokesmen for blacks.

        I wouldn't care so much about what either of them said, except that they seem to exist solely to decry everyone who isn't black as racist.
    • lnxfi, on 12/07/2007, -7/+67Racism is bad, but the even worse is reverse racism. Having a scholarship program for African Americans only is A-OK! Having a scholarship for Caucasians only is an abomination! Al and JJ are unbelievable bigots.
      • native, on 12/07/2007, -0/+89There no such thing as REVERSE racism. It's just plain old RACISM.
      • datdamonfoo, on 12/07/2007, -29/+3It's not reverse racism. You can't keep an entire race down at the bottom of the heirarchical ladder for 400 years, and then turn around and say "Ok, you're equal now! Let's all pretend it didn't happen!" It's only been 40 years since blacks were given civil rights, and with such damage caused by racism in this country for such a long time, there need to be provisions in order to level the playing field.
        • Dakart, on 12/07/2007, -1/+12Here's a quote you might want to pay attention to, datdamonfoo: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

          It's too bad that most of America chooses to ignore this simple philosophy and replace it with over-reactionary, racial backlash.
      • dungbeetle, on 12/07/2007, -1/+34There is no such thing as reverse racism. It's just racism. Reverse implies only whites are racist.
        • MorbenDK, on 12/07/2007, -6/+3Jesus is the only one who can do reverse-racism
      • squirnkey, on 12/07/2007, -31/+3Yeah I know right! White kids in the suburbs have it so HARD! HOW ABOUT A HELPING HAND!!!
        • EmperorAwesome, on 12/07/2007, -1/+26Not all white high-schoolers grow up in the suburbs with a six-figure net household income, *****.
        • clorby, on 12/08/2007, -9/+1no, but i guarantee you a lot more white kids did than black kids. a LOT more.
        • KLowD9x, on 12/08/2007, -1/+9Clorby, and who is to blame for that? The white people? I think not. Black people have MORE opportunities than white people for education and jobs, all because of the color of their skin!
      • Mr.RX99, on 12/08/2007, -5/+3Of course, comparing the average income/ worth of black and white households/persons reveals a gap. While it is important to point out that blacks can be racist against whites, one must keep in mind that this gap still exists, and is rooted in old-fashioned down-home racism.
        • KLowD9x, on 12/09/2007, -1/+3So, you believe that the average income/worth of the black community is because of racism?

          Have you forgotten about affirmative action? Or how about the NAACP and their push for "equality". How about the UNCF?

          It is all about will power and the WANT to succeed! They have a lower average income because they don't WANT to be in a higher income. Well, I take that back, they don't want to WORK to have a higher income, they want it handed to them. Thats why there are so many institutions just for black people.
    • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -36/+8The more I see these stories and comments the more I wonder about digg and insecure white people. Seriously, I mean, placks make up less the 13% of the nations population and apparently have been a threat to the reast of the population for more than 60 years apparently.

      I am black and a similar incident occured to me and my friends (not quite the same level of beating... more like a fight). The incident that happened with me was gang related. Even if I was against a bunch of hispanics or whites I would have known the deal... it was territorial not racial.

      Not in "every" instance a balck and a white person collides does it have to be racist. This reminds me of the overseas adds sony had of the PSP..... Racism is in the eye of the beholder.
      • grandpajesus, on 12/07/2007, -24/+3***** AMEN STATIC.
        I too have noticed the increasing insecurity of seemingly white people here on digg.
      • gilgamesh23, on 12/07/2007, -17/+2I way agreed with you Static! I love how white people are now saying that the "man" is keeping THEM down!
      • thebaron2, on 12/07/2007, -0/+22"Even if I was against a bunch of hispanics or whites I would have known the deal... it was territorial not racial."

        Which is why it wasn't a hate crime. You'd probably be singing a different tune if 9 white teenagers beat the ***** out of you and broke your eyesocket because you tried to sit down on a bus. I don't think that digg's "insecure white people" are saying that EVERY instance is a hate crime; they're pissed off because every time a minority is the victim it's a hate crime, but never when the roles are reversed.

        In THIS instance, I'd say the anger is warranted.
        • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -7/+1No I have rumbled with a large group of hispanics with only one freind to help and I assure you I wouldn't think that going against a group of white people unless they made it clear it as against my race. I live in a melting pot and the white people I come across that are agressive think that they are black anyway so no I wouldn't think of it as a hate crime. That probably wouldn't stop the media but who cares what the media thinks.
      • saintdesy, on 12/07/2007, -1/+11Static, you weren't a lady trying to ride a bus, and your fight wasnt a 9 on 2 beatdown. If a group of white kids beat up a black lady for trying to sit on the bus, you bet it would probably be called a hate crime.
      • pirloui, on 12/08/2007, -0/+2I agree with you for the PSP ads..
    • 4degrees, on 12/07/2007, -5/+7you need to get your pronouns straight... "American man sits down on a bus where 9 caucasian teenagers tell her he cant sit (anywhere)." man sits they tell her he can sit anywhere? identity crisis?
      • diggitydoc, on 12/07/2007, -4/+4congrats to you, grammar nazi.
      • McGuinness, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1*****. Good catch. Sorry, it was one of those quickly written posts due to pure outrage at the situation.
    • RoyLuhza, on 12/07/2007, -13/+8See these blockbuster videos...

      Boy got new shoes… black boy eighteen years or so hurrying thru evening shoppers clutching a pair of used sneakers …he had taken them from the corpse of a sleeping white man aged twenty one, he and his companion had attacked and killed, he was not charged his companion got two years.

      Race not color… aboriginal youth fourteen years or so going thru prone motionless man’s pockets under city lights …fifteen aboriginal teenage tribesmen and girls attacked and battered to death Hoera Te Kooti aged sixty two years, one charged no conviction. He was of the sea faring Moldi people of New Zealand.

      Two weeks ago in Australia some twenty or so aboriginals are in the news whoopin' and hollerin as they attack a man who was walking up the street with his girlfriend.

      Its called Coon Courage oh yeah gonna have a good time oh yeah
      Cos I got coon courage yeah I got coon curry I got coon courage
      And when I got it oh yeah whitey dontcha be there

      Contem dontcha wontcha till you get to three their pants get wet cos they go wee wee
      When there’s four they look a lot more like there a gonna getcha but to stay alive
      Remember a coons got no courage unless there is more than five

      The eighty or so Lebanese who attacked and killed a man on the street at Cronulla have posted footage of themselves grinning and laughing with the vid playing in the background. Kill and die …anticipate the day these felons, are hanged before a video audience.
    • grandpajesus, on 12/07/2007, -16/+4Please be serious.
      Are you people not aware of Baltimore's rep?
      Baltimore is hard and this group of rowdy belligerent middle schoolers would of probably done this to a black person.
    • consoneo, on 12/07/2007, -6/+3So... Apparently EVERYONE on the bus is on one side of the fight or the other... there are no innocent bystanders to ask "What happened?" to... Right. It'd be pretty easy if there were witnesses, so why not ask them?
      • RationalXubrnce, on 12/08/2007, -0/+6 Do you expect we'll find that the white lady started trouble with 9 black kids?
    • EmperorAwesome, on 12/07/2007, -11/+5You make an excellent point, and I dugg you up for it, but begrudgingly, due to your use of the words "African American" and "Caucasian". Unnecessary ass-covering on your part. Seeing as we're genetically the same, and we're only distinguishing the people involved based on color, go ahead and use words describing color, it's okay.
      • Battleloser, on 12/07/2007, -2/+14In the same way a Poodle would be expected to act differently than a German Sheppard, one race of humans, having evolved while isolated from other races will develop behavioral differences as well as physical.
        • EmperorAwesome, on 12/07/2007, -5/+4I would say that's based more in the environment in the case of humans, as most of our behavior is a result of culture rather than instinct, although more often than not, there's a correlation between race and the area in which they live. But I digress, the point I was trying to make is that it's not "insensitive" to refer to people as black or white when pointing out race as a factor. Political correctness is a virulent pox on our society.
        • AceLy, on 12/07/2007, -1/+2Nothing wrong with using the terms "African American" and "Caucasian." They aren't truly accurate in all cases, but neither is "black" and "white." All just terms we use that don't have a negative stigma to them.
        • Mesmorize, on 12/08/2007, -1/+4http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/

          Racial IQ.
      • taztm, on 12/08/2007, -7/+0It's funny to see how so many like-minded white people got together to lash out personally against black people. Reminds me of a good ol lynching, as American as white women being valued over black children and whites trying to maintain what their ancestors set up for them.
      • Mr.RX99, on 12/08/2007, -1/+4Eh...
        Wasn't there a study done recently that concluded that certain racial groups had certain genes that other groups didn't (making them somewhat genetically different)? What exactly these genes do, we don't know (probably just controls skin color, is my guess). But still worth noting.
        I do agree with you that traditional "American" ideas of race are seriously flawed. American conception of race is much different and much stiffer than in other parts of the world.
    • BlackJackJester, on 12/07/2007, -8/+2So is she a man or is he a woman?
    • rockdawg, on 12/07/2007, -11/+3I don't like it when people refer to people as colors. Races have cultures making distinctive diffrences in various peoples. Color coding races I personaly think is stupid. However, each to there own.
    • crestfall, on 12/07/2007, -2/+9Why doesn't she just lie and say they were screaming "black power!" You know, like black people do when something bad happens to them.
    • shanayze, on 12/07/2007, -1/+9You know what, I read the extended story and i say thats a load of BS. Kids now a days need to get punished like they do in Singapore. Take em and give em a good caning and some jailtime. Friggen idiots. First off, what the F is the point of not letting 2 people sit on the bus, if your gonna act like that, you should get the ***** kicked out of you by a qualified government employed ***** cause nowadays mom and dads arent allowed to do that otherwise they might get sued. Finally, i doubt the girl spat on them....thats what i call a made up story to put the instigation of the situation on the other party. All 9 of these ***** kids should be made to line up against a wall and get the ***** kicked out of them to teach them that this is not how normal people behave in society!!
      • ajackett, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1The problem with your solution is that punishing someone using the same act as the crime doesn't teach the person that it's not how normal people behave. If you beat the ***** out of someone, and your punishment is someone beats the ***** out of you, how is your punisher justified? Who punishes the punisher? I think the punishment should fit the crime, I just don't think the punishment should be identical to the crime.
    • badjokes, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=yo ...
    • Koopaloop, on 12/08/2007, -3/+4Heres my question. Why does this subject induce such a disproportional amount of anger from the digg community? I mean look at all the diggs these comments are getting. Sure these are valid points but lI agree with South Park, hate crimes shouldnt exist as different sort of crime, its all 'hate'. Why divide into black and white? People are getting way to pissed of about this story.


      • jumblies, on 12/08/2007, -2/+3Perhaps were tired of 12% of the population committing 70% of the crime.
      • pirloui, on 12/08/2007, -1/+2It's not really black/white; it's an issue of racism and violence linked to it. I'm blond, ("the worst" - freepass to hate and ridicule) and have been had racist verbal attacks on me several times (like ten arabs threttening to beat me up while calling me racist) All racism is wrong, one way one the other.
      • kodax, on 12/08/2007, -1/+2You can say this kind of rhetoric is racist and it is unfair to the majority of blacks who do not break the law. However, there is no denying the problem exists and gives both blacks and America a terrible twist on an already bad image internationally. This kind of thing is not a problem in other countries and frankly,it makes me think twice about visiting the USA or spending any time there.
    • TalkingBanana, on 12/08/2007, -10/+2I live in Baltimore. I know a person who went to the same school these kids go to. I have heard very good accounts of what happened. It wasn't a hate crime, they were trying to rob the bus.
      • AdonisEffect, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, robbing buses is lucrative business.
    • JEWestbrookJR, on 12/08/2007, -0/+9Silly rabbit, don't you know that blacks can't be racists or commit hate crimes? You have to be white to do anything like that.
    • jumblies, on 12/08/2007, -0/+0TNB in every American city.
    • apzdsx, on 12/08/2007, -2/+9Well, I'm a gay black jew and I believe this is a hate crime.
    • yunus, on 12/08/2007, -0/+2600+ diggs. This comment can't be wrong thats the highest number I have ever seen on a comment.
    • Fl4sh, on 12/08/2007, -1/+5Of course it's racism! When something happens to a black person, it's the end of the world as we know it. But if an even worse thing happens to a white person, we say ***** it and move on.

      By the way, I don't hate black people. I am in fact friends with more black people than white people.
      • thebenallen, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1Haha good thing you claused your statement with the old "I can't be racist I know black people" line. It's such a great defense tactic! :rolleyes:
  • AntiHegelian, on 12/07/2007, -122/+25The thought police want to push the issue of hate crimes because they plan on eventually instituting penalties for "hate" thinking. Let's say as a Christian you speak out against the evils of homosexuality or even casual sex for that matter. Well then you obviously hate homosexuals and lascivious people. That is a CRIME! Even though the bible teaches to hate the sin and warn the sinner and pray for the sinner. This woman was beaten by morally degenerate youngsters and they should be incarcerated for quite a long time, but don't fall for this hate crime garbage because the new order is pushing it. It is really aimed at destroying any last vestiges of morality in order to break down society. Eventually the only churches which are not underground will be state sanctioned churches which will not speak out against immorality. I know this might seem like a far fetched idea, but it is exactly what they are doing. The violence which they push in movies, tv and music turns our youth into violent hooligans which they can in turn use to break us down further with the plan to eventually enslave us completely. This is just one aspect, the cultural aspect, of the elites assault on American humanity.. They also are attacking the middle class through a weakened dollar and cheap labor and through the exporting of our manufacturing base. The very same black people whom they seem to care about as they push for hate crime laws they are killing by the tens of millions by putting abortion clinics in every major poor black district in the US. These people are evil and have only their best interest in mind.
    • EditorResponse, on 12/07/2007, -35/+22No, you know what the problem is? When ever a white group beasts on a black it is a hate crime. Yet when a group of N* beats on a white it is NOT a hate crime. Go figure. Here in Chicago we had a group of five N* beat a white kid into a coma over a cell phone....no hate crime. Even though they called him whitey and everything as they beat him.
      • MWeather, on 12/07/2007, -26/+8But you just said it was over a cell phone. If they beat him over being white, THAT would be a hate crime.
        • AresDiggs, on 12/07/2007, -1/+31Im pretty sure that if you are a white guy beating a black guy... no matter why the beating started... if you yelled out 'stupid n*' or something similar it would then become a hate crime... the same should apply in reverse
      • BabyWookie, on 12/07/2007, -3/+25Who are these "Nstars" that you speak off and who are these "white group beasts"?
        • beatbox32, on 12/07/2007, -1/+8I think I saw something on Sci-Fi the other night...
        • eggo, on 12/07/2007, -1/+10I think he means naggers.
        • jon30041, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1@eggo

          Yeah, those people really annoy me!
      • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -4/+2Its not as absolute as you make it sound. Some non-white people are charged with hate crimes and some white people get away with them. I can see why we would have more awareness of hate crimes against non-white people and that is because our country has a history against racism towards non-white people that it doesn't have against white people. Yes some non-white people commit hate crimes and get away with it because people are not looking for racism against white people and thats not fair, but it is understandable when you look at the history of our country.
    • ArchieAndrews, on 12/07/2007, -6/+31The conversations inside your head must be chilling...
    • Godlike, on 12/07/2007, -5/+22Absolutely a hate crime in every possible sense.

      If 7 white people had beat up a black woman they would already have been charged with a hate crime.
      • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -6/+2No, not unless it seemed to be racially motivated. I happens all the time but in alot of cases it may be robbery, gang related and actually have nothing to do with race. The area I live in is a melting pot and I see different races have issues everyday but I have never seen in my area so many cries of racism as I have seen here on digg.
        • Godlike, on 12/07/2007, -1/+6Uhm, it's a god damn bus? Can you think of anything more racially motivated than public bus seating? Did you ever learn anything about the civil rights movement?
    • Alpione, on 12/07/2007, -8/+17I don't believe in this whole "hate crime" garbage.. It's political correctness run amok (again.) An assault shouldn't be more or less punished because of the reason behind it. It's an assault, pure and simple. No one "special" group should be protected more than another. Why should attacking blacks or gays be prosecuted more harshly than attacking a white guy? The attacker should get punished severely in all cases..
      • Btzarro, on 12/07/2007, -5/+1Your white power freerepublic friends would agree with you.
      • deskattire, on 12/07/2007, -2/+2Thank you -- I was hoping someone would say it.

        The motiv for a crime shouldn't influence the punishment, IMO. Say one person dies from a money-inspired crime, and one person dies from a hate-inspired crime. WHY should the punishment be different??? The first guy is just as deas as the second guy
    • BeyondGoodNEvil, on 12/07/2007, -4/+7Not sure why they're digging you down so heavily. Hate crime is in fact a ***** unconstitutional concept. As if murder, rape or assault is ever NOT a "hate" crime. It is in fact criminalizing the intentions of the person, which is the THOUGHT, rather than the crime. You're 100% right that this is just a wedge issue to further criminalize politically incorrect thinking.
      • AdonisEffect, on 12/12/2007, -1/+1I dugg him down for being an evangelist and conspiracy theorist.
    • ruz322, on 12/08/2007, -3/+3"Well then you obviously hate homosexuals and lascivious people. That is a CRIME! "
      Just because you speak out against something doesn't mean you hate someone that partakes in that behavior. I am against homosexuality as much as anybody can be, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone. I love everyone, regardless of what they may do.
      • siszam, on 12/08/2007, -2/+2Exactly right.
      • AntiHegelian, on 12/08/2007, -3/+1I wasn't saying that, that's the whole point. They love to accuse Christians of hating when we don't. I think a lot of people may have misunderstood me. Your quote from me was actually me quoting the thought police.
  • demicritter, on 12/07/2007, -11/+330I've decided: Hate Crime. But, of course, because the assailants were black and the victim was a white woman, the media have nothing to exploit. It doesn't meet their template for "hate" defined as any minority that is attacked by a white person.
    • sensoukami, on 12/07/2007, -17/+165Dude. Only white people are racist. Everyone knows that...
      • EditorResponse, on 12/07/2007, -35/+8Either that is /sarcasim or you have a sickness in you family.
        • tokyomonster, on 12/07/2007, -1/+36It's obviously sarcasm.
        • AresDiggs, on 12/07/2007, -4/+11Actually its true... Black people say N* all the time(not every black person but a majority).. but white people can't say it with out being racist... so by saying that a white person can not say a word because that person is white.. is that not racism?
          • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -6/+2No thats not racism. You can say the N word all you want, but if you are not black it will be seen as severely disrespectful. If you look at the history of the use of the N word between two black people and the history or its use between a white person and a black person, you will see why there is a difference.
          • datdamonfoo, on 12/07/2007, -5/+0Phrag is correct. The "N" word used by black people is different than the one used by whites to denigrate blacks. It's spelled differently, pronounced differently, and carries a whole different connotation. You may not want to accept it, but that's the way it is.
          • vuke69, on 12/07/2007, -2/+6Ok people, the word is *****, yes, I said it, *****.

            It's not a word I normally use, I don't care if they call themselves it, but if they don't want me to call them it, fine I wont. I'm not the one bing a hypocrite. HOWEVER, I'm not too chicken ***** to even type out the word when that is the actual subject of the conversation.

            It's just a ***** word people. It's like Freddy Kruger, it only has power because you give it power.
          • jftitan, on 12/07/2007, -3/+1I'm white, and I use the word ***** all the time. (no I'm not a redneck, although I do hate rednecks...)* Around my black friends too. Why, because I'm taking the word back. just like Porch monkey.

            The fact of the matter is this, the use of the word is based on the person using it. I use *****/***** all the time in conversations with my black friends because to them I'm just another friend. "*****, please... your wrong, you need to get your facts straight... and stop drinking the grape juice(drink)!" Between them and I we laugh our asses off, because we know I'm using the word, not in a racist manor, but as if it was another word in my vocab.

            Of course, I do know a few of my black friends that don't like me to use that word, because to them it IS considered racist. So Irefrane from using it around them because its a sensitive issue to THEM. The funny thing is, two of my good friends and I had this very argument a week ago, on the use of racial words, and violence. When it comes down to it, the argument ended up as this "It should no longer be considered racism when a African/Caucasian/Asian/Mexican fights with someone of other nationality, it should be considered two or more stupid people fighting over petty differences or arguments, and failure to look past ones own big headed stubbornness"

            * see blacks hate *****, and whites hate rednecks.... racism all around!
          • Btzarro, on 12/07/2007, -3/+1Ah all three stromfront retards using the 'I have black friends' excuse to justify racism/hate crimes,What are you going to use next to justify racism in the uk,That stupid AvenueQ song?
        • BabyWookie, on 12/07/2007, -1/+10Uh... I think that it was rather obvious.
      • pkonink, on 12/08/2007, -3/+1Of course that's not true. The reason why there is or may be an imbalance in what is considered racist or a hate crime is that the very system we live in is racist. If you are black or Mexican or whatever the system itself is already "out to get you." If you don't believe me, try being a black man driving a nice car (that belongs to you) through a wealthy neighborhood at night. Not going to get very far.

        All that aside, these little ***** that did this need to be punished severely. There is no excuse for that kind of monstrous behavior.
    • insllvn, on 12/07/2007, -3/+44No, this was a love crime. These people beat the ***** out of her because they loved her. /sarcasm Stop and think about it for a minute, why does it matter? Why does intent have any effect on sentencing? Hate crimes are no more deplorable an act than crimes motivated by greed or love or psychosis or whimsy.
      • Ademan, on 12/07/2007, -2/+38Agreed, in fact the entire idea of a hate crime is inherrently racist because it takes into account the races of the two (or more) parties. That said, so long as these laws are in place, yes, this was a hate crime, but these laws should never have existed in the first place.
        • pkonink, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1I think the "hate crime" designation was created to address the terror aspects of such a crime. If you get beaten up for your money then that is still wrong but that kind of thing just happens in this world, chances are it won't happen again (to you). If you get beaten up because you are black (as an example) then you can probably expect to get beaten up all the time ... just because you are black.
      • MWeather, on 12/07/2007, -4/+11"Why does intent have any effect on sentencing?"

        So you think accidental manslaughter and premeditated murder should have the same penalty?
        • govsucks, on 12/07/2007, -1/+8How does a accidental occurace impy emotion?
        • leftyslament, on 12/07/2007, -1/+7That is a matter of the intent of the consequence of the action, not the reasoning behind it. Whether a man murders someone because of their race or for their wallet, he still intentionally killed someone. Whereas whether a man hits someone with his car because he intended to kill them or simply wasn't looking where he was going is a matter of guilt.
        • Acolyte357, on 12/07/2007, -1/+1Err no a Hate Crime carries it's own sentencing and is in fact questioning the reason behind the act.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
      • jsmith39, on 12/07/2007, -1/+6Soley because of the punishment that will be given by the court system. You're right in that the concept of hate/love/negligent attraction/whatever crimes are stupid and counter-productive. However since there is a hate crime on the books, and since being convicted of a hate crime is like a cherry on your sentencing sundae than it is only fair and impartial of lady justice to hand out the hate crime label to everyone who commits it, not just when whites do it to minoritys
      • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -1/+3Possibally because there where group of people called the KKK and the blank panther that cause violence on people just because of race. The hate crime punishments are to discourage groups like these.
      • brodsky13, on 12/07/2007, -0/+3Ordinarily, an attack such as this one is against an individual. A hate crime targets not the individual but the group to which they belong. If you live in that neighborhood and you're afraid to take the bus now *because* you're white, you're a victim of the crime as well. Therein lies the difference.
    • eryximachus, on 12/07/2007, -7/+15I think it's worth pointing out that only white people are minorities on this earth. 93% of the world's population is not white.
      • Acolyte357, on 12/07/2007, -1/+8Are you retarded? "only white people are minorities on this earth. 93% of the world's population is not white."
        http://www.prb.org/pdf06/06WorldDataSheet.pdf
        * Asia (3970)
        * Africa (925 million)
        * Europe (730)
        * Latin/South America/Carribean (560)
        * North America (330)
        * Oceania (35)
        "white people" are not the ONLY minority nor are we the smallest minority
        • Btzarro, on 12/07/2007, -5/+1Yes,Hes from stormfront like the rest of the inbreds that posted about 'reverse racism' in this thread.
        • jsauter, on 12/07/2007, -2/+1While I agree with you that caucasians are probably not the smallest minority in the world (unless you consider caucasian versus non-caucasian), I believe you quoted total populates for continents/regions not actual racial diversity for those areas...
        • insertAliasHere, on 12/07/2007, -0/+3And even if he was right, it has no bearing on this debate. This is about an crime in an American city, and the laws therein. Not world population of whites/other races. Obviously the use of the word minority in this sense is relative to the country of America.
        • AceLy, on 12/07/2007, -1/+2Both Acolyte357 and insertAliasHere make good points, unlike eryximachus.
      • datdamonfoo, on 12/07/2007, -1/+2Wow, are you wrong.
    • Beakerz, on 12/07/2007, -7/+2from what i've heard hate crimes actually carry a more lenient punishment than the crime when not classified as a hate crime - they did this just to please the NAACP who were pushing so hard for such laws...
    • csplinter, on 12/07/2007, -6/+3Definitely a hate crime. Those sexist bastards!
      • csplinter, on 12/07/2007, -8/+0Wow yea digg me down. (hint: not to be taken literally this time)
    • GuacamoleSan, on 12/07/2007, -1/+3It can only be a hatecrime if the victim is black, Duh....Black people are given more rights in our society
    • Bodhinature, on 12/07/2007, -0/+2If you look deeper you'll find that there have been several arrests recently of juveniles for assault in the city. There is some tension in the city that is about to erupt. This is not isolate like the authorities want you to believe.
    • hshadow914, on 12/08/2007, -1/+3it seems kinda like that whole rosa parks thing...
      • carpespasm, on 12/08/2007, -0/+5except instead of being arrested and later seen as a hero of civil rights she got her face smashed in and was told that whether her race was part of her being picked out was in question..
    • TheFiestyFaun, on 12/08/2007, -3/+1If the crime is race related we call it a "hate crime", but aren't all crimes equally bad no matter why you commit them? If someone killed a family because they were bored or because the family was a different race does it matter? The family is still dead, and that person still killed them. The "why" shouldn't matter.
  • Napoleone, on 12/07/2007, -15/+253I don't believe in the concept of hate crimes, be the crime perpetrated by whomever. An assault is an assault. Intimidation is intimidation. A crime is a crime is a crime. These teenagers are seriously disturbed and they need to do some meaningful jail time before someone gets killed by one or more of them. This has got to be punished.
    • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -7/+27The concept of a hate crime is about motive. The end result may be the same, but the problem is different. In this case, she couldn't just hand over her wallet and walk away. She had the wrong color skin. Motivation is a key element in any crime.
      • Napoleone, on 12/07/2007, -4/+17Motive is useful as an investigative tool. But it is not itself a legitimate thing to bring up charges on.
        • pintomp3, on 12/07/2007, -1/+3actually, motive is usually used for evidence and for sentencing. there is a big difference between a man killing another man because he found him on top of his wife vs killing people of a particular race, religion or creed in order to send a message to the rest of that community that they are not safe.
        • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -0/+5If that were true, self-defense would be as bad as murder.
        • kodax, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1Our whole criminal justice system is based on mental state (or motive) and its the proper approach...especially for crimes like assault. Its unfair to penalize someone for drunken assault in the same way as you charge someone who has a vendetta.
      • drachemorder, on 12/07/2007, -0/+14You're confusing motive and intent. Motive is one's reason for doing something --- did you beat the person up because they're white, or because you wanted to take their wallet? Intent, on the other hand, deals with whether or not you meant to do what you did. Did you beat the person up (which is a choice), or did you hurt them by accident while doing something else? Intent distinguishes between accidents and deliberate crimes, and that's an important difference. You don't want to punish people for something that's an accident unless they were just grossly negligent, and in that case what you're punishing them for is their carelessness, and that's not usually as serious as a deliberate crime.
        Now, motive is not the same thing at all. Whether you are a racist or you just wanted to steal something, you still made a deliberate choice to commit a crime, and that's what you should be punished for. The exact nature of your motivation is irrelevant because it resulted in the same intent and the same crime.
        • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -0/+1I've got a firm grasp of abstract concepts. Motivation is never irrelevant, ever. After all, how we perceive our world defines the world we live in.
          In my earlier example, a mugger could be paid and he might leave. His motivation is money. Meanwhile, this woman couldn't change the color of her skin to save her life.
          Here's an example you may like...
          Scenario A: Man abuses his wife for years, eventually gets bored and kills her in a slow painful manner.
          Scenario B: Man abuses his wife for years, she snaps and kills him... in a slow painful manner.
          Are they both just murder? How about if it's a quick and painless death for each. What should her punishment be for killing her husband?
        • sphira, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1"Whether you are a racist or you just wanted to steal something, you still made a deliberate choice to commit a crime, and that's what you should be punished for. The exact nature of your motivation is irrelevant because it resulted in the same intent and the same crime.
          "

          Very very well put and concise.

          "mugger could be paid and he might leave"
          not if there was no money to pay -- so would there be a hate factor here with regard to the man being mugged being poor vs rich?

          "you still made a deliberate choice to commit a crime"
          With premeditation in your scenarios--
          How gruesome and sadistic the the act was is factored regardless of the "hate" label attached, hence the term "throw the book at em". All the other points come under minimum sentencing, punishment guidelines and the like.
      • atdigg, on 12/07/2007, -2/+5To me this sounds like thought crime, a crime is a crime and has to be punished but not according to different reasons, only thing that should matter is intention (to harm or not to harm) not what's behind the intention.
        • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -1/+1Let's put this a different way. We'll remove assault from the picture.
          Person A is desperate, and stills food from a grocer in order to eat, and possibly feed his family
          Person B ran out of batteries for his MP3 player, left his wallet at home, and just pockets some at that same grocery store.
          Do you really think they need to be punished equally?
          I also think each one of those kids on that bus should be charged as an accessory to each of his friends, in addition to assault/attempted homicide.
      • govsucks, on 12/07/2007, -0/+4So if I rob a bank out of love for my family, it should carry a lighter penalty? If I steal from the rich and give to the poor? Oh wait, yeah thats OK, so just the first part. >:)
        • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -2/+2You shouldn't have a lighter penalty for the crime, but there should be an added charge depending on the motivation. If I tell you to hand over your wallet "or else", you have a choice. If I just randomly attack someone, they never had a chance. Both cases are wrong, but I think hurting people just for the sake of hurting them should have a stiffer penalty. Usually, they just label you nuts and give you the good drugs.
          And, for the record, if you rob a bank out of love for your family and prove that they needed it, etc... you would get a lighter sentence. Especially if you are a first offender.
    • drlha, on 12/07/2007, -21/+7They're black teenagers. They'll all get jail time no matter whether this was "hate crime" or not. I'm sure they'll all get tried as adults and sent down for years.

      Of course if it were the other way around (white boys beating up a black girl) then you might have to worry about them getting off, but don't worry - this county loves to jail black folks!
      • Priddin, on 12/07/2007, -3/+3wow you are a *****.. hope i don't see you on the bus, might have to come beat the ***** ***** out of you. this is a ***** hate crime cause they are ***** beating her up because shes sitting in a seat not taken, if it was a black guy sitting down nothing woulda happened. lol 14-15 in middle school look at the kids you are defending, your just ignorant these kids are gonna get 30 days probation because their black. and you ever notice why black people are in jail. BECAUSE THEY ARE ***** COMMITTING CRIMES YOU DUMBASS wow gg go jump off a bridge
        • drlha, on 12/07/2007, -1/+1I never said it wasn't a hate crime, and I certainly wasn't defending them (I'm not sure why you think I am). They deserve punishment if they are found guilty after a full trial.

          I just was pointing out that people needn't be wringing their hands over whether the perpetrators will be adequately punished because recent history has shown us that the law in the country doesn't tend to hand out light sentences or slaps on the wrists to black teenagers.

          I'll delay jumping off a bridge for now thanks!
      • itzac, on 12/07/2007, -3/+2Sad, but true. Not that they shouldn't go to jail. But the fact that their treatment will almost certainly be different from what a group of white kids would get speaks to the fact that racism is still alive and well. Also speaks to the problem with trial by jury.
      • kettlechips, on 12/08/2007, -0/+2Good point. She probably just fell down the stairs, and the kids were blamed because they're black.
    • blackmage439, on 12/07/2007, -7/+39I want to agree with you, but jail time will not help these uncultured savages. You know what these "kids" will think of their time behind bars? Free food and a place to stay. And I'll bet they'll have their bus privileges back within a week of their release. Hell, they'll be lucky to serve a month in jail, with all the screaming and elitist *****-spouting from Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and their 300-pound fat ***** parents who buy steak with food stamps.

      Anyone who spontaneously beats the ***** out of a girl, unprovoked, doesn't deserve help, they deserve the Chair.
      • Napoleone, on 12/07/2007, -11/+5The Chair? Seriously? Is it even is use anymore?

        These kids are obviously ***** up in the head, but this wasn't murder.
        • Lyk4n, on 12/07/2007, -2/+7It could have been if the cops hadn't showed up in time..
        • Napoleone, on 12/07/2007, -4/+3We don't give people the death penalty for what could have happened.
        • Lyk4n, on 12/07/2007, -1/+3Either way, they should be charged with the intent to murder. I don't agree with the chair statement, I was just disagreeing with you, it very well could have been murder if those animals had had the time. Baltimore has become a horrible place, teenagers need to be put back into their place there.
      • leftyslament, on 12/07/2007, -11/+5Sorry, I don't agree with what happened and I think they deserve harsh punishment, but come on. You clearly have some racial issues.
      • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -4/+3And of course you know that the attack was unprovoked because you were there, right?
        • lornefs, on 12/07/2007, -1/+6When a girl is attacked by a group of 'cowards' there is no such thing as a provocation.
          What was she doing, brandishing a knife? Uh right.
        • Lyk4n, on 12/07/2007, -1/+4No matter what she did to provoke, nine people tearing the ***** out of her is extremely excessive. No one competent will disagree with me here. When a frenzied mob goes after someone they aren't attacking them to warn them, it's because they have murder in their hearts.
        • Phrag, on 12/07/2007, -3/+1@ lornefs - And if the guy pulled a knife on a group of kids as they allege he did, what do you call him? What makes you believe that the kids would start beating the girl with no reason and not believe that the guy with the girl would pull a knife on the kids for no reason? It doesn't matter if it was 1 on 1 or 10 on 1 or beating a girl or beating a guy. If someone pulls a deadly weapon on you, you do what ever you can to defend yourself, especially if you are unarmed. At this point I don't know the truth because both sides have a reason to lie. If they all jumped her with no reason, then you are right they are cowards. If they all fought back against a guy with a knife, then they are anything but. I don't know so I'm not going to say now. What do you know that makes you so certain?

          @ Lyk4n - So if she or her boyfriend had a knife, then they should have lined up and tried to fight them one at a time? If someone pulled a knife on my friend, I and all my friends would jump in to help take the guy with the knife down. You are acting like you know their motives without even knowing the full story. If these kids had wanted to kill the girl, then I would think the certainly had the ability and opportunity. What the story does say is that the kids dragged her off the bus and the boyfriend tried to get her back on. Now if these kids wanted to kill he, why would they try to get her off the bus instead of just killing her on it? If the guy and the girl were being attacked by a frenzied mob that was trying to kill them, why would he try to get back on the bus with the mob? There are a lot of unanswered questions and I think a lot of people here are making assumptions before they know the facts.
        • itzac, on 12/07/2007, -0/+4That's right, a single woman intentionally provoked a group of teenagers, most of them probably bigger than her. Clearly she had absolutely no sense of fear or self-preservation. Obviously that's the most likely scenario and must be how it went down.
      • stoanhart, on 12/07/2007, -1/+7They don't deserve the chair. Taking nine lives for assaulting one is hardly just. They should go to prison.

        But prison shouldn't be what it is today; prison is currently a place to hang out with fellow criminals, learn a thing or two about the trade, while getting free accommodation, food, and even health care.

        Prison should be like slavery; hard, back-breaking labor for 10+ hours per day with no pay. Provide exactly the amount of food that is necessary to healthily sustain someone, about 2000 calories per day and all the vitamins and minerals you need, and nothing more; let it be the same meal every single day until they can't even stand the though of it anymore. Keep this up for 90% of the sentence.

        In the last 10% move the prisoners to a minimum security prison; there, they will be responsible for getting themselves up, cooking their own food, getting to their work on time. At work, they will work reasonable hours, and be treated fairly. Pay them for the work they do, and make them pay rent and bills for their stay, with some money left over so they don't leave prison with nothing.

        Break them down to nothing, until they can barely stand to face another day (punishment), so they will never want to repeat the prison experience again. Then rehabilitate them; get them used to the cycle of daily life: go to work, make money, pay bills, have responsibilities. Reintroduce them as functional members of society.
    • geoffrobinson, on 12/07/2007, -0/+3I think motivation (racial, greed, etc.) can go to mitigating or agravating factors in sentencing. Making it a seperate crime causes too many problems.
    • Acolyte357, on 12/07/2007, -4/+3"I don't believe in the concept of hate crimes," good thing the courts do.
    • oldhick, on 12/07/2007, -1/+5Finally, someone with a brain. There are no HATE crimes. There are only crimes. We have judges, juries, and a judicial system that are capable of handling crimes. This is simply political correct thought policing BS. Punish criminals for their crimes, end of story.
    • pyrewyrm, on 12/07/2007, -0/+2Hate crimes are essentially thought crimes... Anyone really want thought police? I believe their actions to be despicable but where were the other passengers? Have we degraded so much as a society that we do not defend our neighbor? We decry events like this and then jail men like Horn from texas for acting against those who injure his neighbors?

      It makes me happy to know my state licenses me to carry my weapon everywhere I walk... Should I see such an act, there will be caskets... I will stand by no longer and watch this descent into madness.
    • hifiDesign, on 12/07/2007, -0/+2I tend to agree with Napoleone. These days, life just simply isn't valued. Baltimore City is a cesspool.

      Read the story of Zach Sowers and tell me any amount of justice can replace what he and his wife lost.

      http://www.zachsowers.com/
    • themajor, on 12/08/2007, -0/+2and by "meaningful jailtime" you mean a dose of their own medicine.
    • Koopaloop, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1yeah while your at it why dont you just imprison all of inner city Baltimore while your at it. Maybe this is too large a leap(srcsm) but Baltimore way past the point where serious jail time solves ANYTHING.
    • billthelizard, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1I think I saw a South Park about your comment once...
  • Napoleone, on 12/07/2007, -5/+87I wanna add something I left out. I believe the motive behind a crime is a valid issue for the public to discuss. Understanding why this or any other incident occurs is legit. But I believe, in the eyes of the law it should be a neutral matter.
    • kaelyiesta, on 12/08/2007, -1/+3I think the problem is that the idea 'hate crimes' is that somehow its more evil, hateful or whatever to hurt someone who is not the same color you are. While motive may be a great thing to consider when trying to rehabilitate these kids, it is NOT ok to give them harsher sentences because they chose to hurt someone not of their race. Assault is assault. These kids are guilty of it, and they need to be punished for that. Not because they are racist. Hate crime modifiers to a criminal sentence are completely unhelpful. Thats what pisses me off.
  • 14justice, on 12/07/2007, -32/+190Hate crime legislation is just a tool to deny whites equal protection under the law.
    • mortigon, on 12/07/2007, -30/+9oppression sucks doesn't it
      • georgetds, on 12/07/2007, -0/+13It always has. We ought to try and do something about it.
    • sibhod, on 12/07/2007, -25/+5The majority of hate crime convictions are minorities. Nice try though!
      • Liam76, on 12/07/2007, -4/+11Because there have never been (to my knowledge, I would love to be corrected) hate crime laws used when it was a "hate crime" against a white person. the fact is that a Black person is far more likely to attack a white person than vice versa. Loof at the FBI stats, this is an undeniable fact. So excuse me if I don't feel like white on black hate crimes are that pressing.
        • voisine, on 12/07/2007, -1/+2while I agree that hate crimes are bogus and deny equal protection under the law, that statistics you mention probably haven't been controlled for population. For instance if blacks are 10% of the population and whites 80%, you would expect 80% black violence to be committed against whites. You wouldn't be able to show a trend of racially motivated crime unless the statistic was higher than the proportion of that race in the general population.
        • pickypg, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1I'm not so sure why the crime statistics need to controlled for population--they cover the entire population, not some limited percentage. Not that it matters, since you can get statistics to basically show you whatever you want them to show you.
      • deadmann, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1You'd never know watching mainstream media. But Black on White crimes does heavily outnumber the reverse.
    • Robthefrog, on 12/07/2007, -27/+9***** you. Get a life. I don't owe you a ***** thing. Maybe my ancestors, but ***** you, not me. Learn to be civil. ***** animal.
      • alperea, on 12/07/2007, -3/+9Yeah, learn to be civil! Tell that to some crazy ass rednecks I know.
    • darkdaedra, on 12/07/2007, -4/+4Deny whites equal protection under the law? OK. Fair enough to say that the letter of the law may, in this particular case, favor minorities. However, and this is a big however, you have to be out of your mind if you think that in reality whites are being largely discriminated against by the law.

      Hate crime laws are in place to protect groups that have been discriminated against and assaulted, both physically and emotionally, on a grand scale for hundreds of years. This woman was almost certainly attacked because she was white -- and yes, that is technically a hate crime. Screaming racism and getting angry because society refuses to acknowledge the existence of black anti-white racism is entirely unproductive.

      What this article should inspire in you is disgust for an environment in our country that fosters the development of such cruel, misguided adolescents. We should be frustrated with a middle-school teacher that implicitly seems to approve of such disgraceful behavior. This are children that performed horrific acts. Let's not condemn them as monsters nor go on some ridiculous ideological crusade. Instead, let us just reflect for a moment on how these kids ended up that way.
      • pickypg, on 12/08/2007, -0/+3"Screaming racism and getting angry because society refuses to acknowledge the existence of black anti-white racism is entirely unproductive."

        Doesn't that kind of make the law seem pretty hypocritical? Blaming us for our ancestor's problems and then punishing us for it? It's like saying my white neighbor's great-grandfather was a builder, so now everytime I build something, I have to pay an additional tax for it just because I'm white. I'd be just as upset if I was black and I was the butt of something racist, but the double standard of political correctness needs to go away.

        These kids clearly are monsters.
    • acroyear2, on 12/07/2007, -1/+7there are plenty brown folks like myself who believe this is a crime related to race and are disturbed by it. also, hate crime legislation is in place to placate minority communities, not oppress your white ass. there's worse things that can be done to oppress. hate crime legislation is short sighted and increasingly naive. more of a symbolic gesture.

      things aren't always equal.

      have a child and put them in a poor, psychologically dangerous neighborhood.
      tell them their ancestors were slaves.
      show that child a mix of pity and resentment
      then pray to god that child grows up safe and alright.
  • FyreGoddess, on 12/07/2007, -24/+24Intention doesn't determine whether or not something is a hate crime. Hate crimes are only determined when hateful speech is exhibited during or after the attack.

    If they were screaming about her being a honky or a cracker or any other racial slur, then it would be a hate crime. If they simply targeted her because she looked like she had money or looked like a victim or had somehow committed what they perceived as a slight against them, then it's just a crime.

    These kids were looking for a fight. They were doing everything they could to provoke her into doing something that would push them over the edge, in this case, sitting down near one of them. It's something that kids sometimes do. These particular kids were also thugs... it happens.
    • yaryarhumphump, on 12/07/2007, -7/+23Wrong.... you fail try again.

      If she was black and they were right it would counted as a hate crime.
      Since they are black its not possible in the eyes of the law for them to commit a hate crime. As in the case a few months ago where a number of black youth beat up 2 white girls used many racial slurs during the attack, and they got let off.....

      let off... see the point here.
      • RedHerringHack, on 12/07/2007, -16/+5Blacks are full of hate.
        • Lyk4n, on 12/07/2007, -0/+6Buried. That kind of ***** isn't necessary.
    • atlascott, on 12/07/2007, -2/+10You are also ridiculous in your "they were looking for a fight" theory. This was a murderous attack, not a fight. A group of 9 little bastards jumped on some innocent woman who wanted to ride a bus. I say shoot the little bastards.
    • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -3/+4No they wouldn't. I live in a melting pot area and crimes like these happen all the time. Race is not brought up unless it seems like a motivation for the crime. Honestly, It wasn't until I read digg that I see how so many "whites" feel victimized over a supposed slight. Get over yourselves, there are a lot of crimes commited in america and I am pretty damn sure most of them are not about race. Because the media, twists the issues don't believe for a second that all whites are going to be victims from now on. I heard this arguement before........ 20 years ago.... from a KKK member. I really don't see a wave of violence hitting this nation majority "just" because they are white. I find it really funny that this victim mentality came from a racist himself.
      • ikcamar, on 12/07/2007, -4/+2And you are a total ignoramus as well.
        • Btzarro, on 12/07/2007, -3/+1He hit a little too close to home? you inbred redneck republikkkan.
          • actorboy, on 12/07/2007, -1/+3While you and I are on the same side of the argument, I can't help but wonder how many other race/culture-based pejoratives you use in your daily conversations. Dugg down.
    • ikcamar, on 12/07/2007, -4/+2You are a total ignoramus.
    • darthom, on 12/07/2007, -4/+2You are stupid. If you are black, that explains it. If not, you should ride that bus and earn yourself a Darwin award.
  • dukemeister, on 12/07/2007, -16/+34Does it even matter whether it's a hate crime or not?

    Does anyone really care what motivates a person to commit a crime? If they commit a crime, that's a criminal act. Period. It appears that woman was assaulted. Does it even matter what motivated the people who assaulted her? Why do we have a special category for "Hate Crimes" anyway?

    The classification of hate crimes may have begun with the use of symbols or icons intended to offend: Swastikas painted on synagogues, for example. Perhaps society decided that simply calling this graffiti or acts of vandalism, lacked an appreciation of the hurtful emotional or psychological message those symbols conveyed to the victims.

    Well-meaning people probably believed that by calling certain acts hate crimes, it enabled the law to address the extent of the harm that may have been inflicted. Unfortunately, no one can read another person's mind; not judges and not juries, certainly. And it doesn't really matter in the end.

    The fact is, we have the right of free speech in this country. We can whip out a match and burn the American flag (an act which I personally find offensive and hateful). We can get a bunch of our Nazi buddies together and march in Cleveland (hey, if we want the world to know that we're jerks and we hate everybody who doesn't agree with us, so be it). A lot of people hate paying their taxes and the IRS in particular, but the last time I looked, cheating on your taxes was not (yet) considered a hate crime. So why shouldn't people have the right to express even the most vile sort of hate—just as long as they don't commit a crime in doing so?
    • FyreGoddess, on 12/07/2007, -8/+20That's the misconception, though. People DO have the right to express their hatred in whatever vile way they choose - *as long as they're not also committing a crime*.

      When they commit a crime in conjunction with spewing hatred, it becomes (in the eyes of the law) a WORSE crime than if they were doing it without the bigotry.

      Beating up a man = crime
      Call a man a "*****" = hate
      Beating up a man while calling him a "*****" = hate crime.

      Being a bigot isn't a crime. Proving your bigotry through destruction and damage with the intent of harming others mentally and emotionally in addition to whatever physical damage is being done is what creates "hate crime".

      I don't understand why it's so difficult a concept to grasp.
      • EuphopiaB, on 12/07/2007, -3/+6Ok, so hate crimes exist, but why should the law make that differentiation and punish the man more because he was calling him a *****? Isn't that punishment of thoughts? The law should concern itself with actions, and the only mental difference is if the crime was accidental or deliberate. It's like saying someone that hates the government and because they do hits a police car with a bat deserves to be punished more than someone who does the same thing because he doesn't like a bumper sticker on the car. If you punish the former man more, you are punishing him for what he thinks. That is what I believe to be wrong. I mean, why not then punish someone for their thoughts of "hate" when they have committed no crime? If hate is a crime itself then thought can be a crime and, well, I think we know where it goes from there.
        • netant, on 12/07/2007, -3/+2Its a means to address violent crime perpetrated specifically on racial, ethnic, sexual orientation issues. If you just try to enforce all violent crime the same way, without stipulation, then you'll have fistfights between two guys getting 5-10 years in prison. More likely, the fistfights between two white guys against one black guy will get probation and/or ajudication, while two black guys against one white guy will get prison.

          When you create a "hate" crime moniker, with increased penalties, that makes it a more serious felony, which "encourages" prosecutors to pursue them more vigorously.

          I don't care at this point if the woman spat at them beforehand. It doesn't justify that level of assault. The problem is the system will try to mitigate sentences with that kind of crap excuses. Let them sit in juvie until they are 18, for all I care. Crappy parenting still produced those thugs.
      • dougmc, on 12/07/2007, -3/+5Because it's a stupid concept, the idea that a crime is somehow worse because it's motivated by `hate'.
        (I know, the idea isn't yours, you're just trying to explain it.)

        Personally, if I get my ass kicked by a bunch of punks, I want them in jail. I don't care why they did it, beyond what I need to do to prevent that sort of thing from happening again. It's not like I'm likely to hurt less just because they beat me because I looked at them wrong rather than because they hate whites?
        • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -1/+1Your wrong. That makes them even more dangerous. When people rob or steal the justifaction or reasoning can normally be explained and it eases societies concerns. When hate crimes arises it can set towns, cities and maybe even more on edge because how safe would you feel if your seemingly well to do neighbor might commit some violent act on you just because of your race/nationality/sexuality?

          It just goes over better... if some one wants to rob you maybe you can get away by giving them everything you have... if its a hate crime then there is no escape or recourse. You just "are" the reason and motivation for the crime.
          • oldhick, on 12/07/2007, -2/+3So. We punish people for criminal acts, not criminal thoughts. You don't know the heart of anyone and you certainly can't judge it.
      • RizenBB, on 12/07/2007, -1/+2If you beat the ***** out of someone, it doesn't matter if it was because he's gay or because you want to steal his Nikes. It's still ILLEGAL TO BEAT SOMEONE. Who cares why it was done? Don't do it.
      • dukemeister, on 12/08/2007, -0/+0Thanks for your comment.

        Yes, I understand what constitutes a hate crime as opposed to a non-hate crime.

        My point was, hate crimes punish people for what they may have been thinking at the time they committed a criminal act. Even if they shout racial epithets while stabbing someone, what they think or say while doing so shouldn't matter. Society should not in good conscience punish people for their thoughts.

        In a free society, that is simply unthinkable.
    • sensoukami, on 12/07/2007, -5/+27I agree. I think Hate Crime legislation is incredibly dumb.

      By way of an example. I'm a hetero white guy. I go out for a drink with my hetero Chinese friend. Some white skindheads decide to put a beating on him, and I get dragged into it. Half of the skinheads beat my friend, half go to town on me. My friend and I both suffer equally severe injuries. Yet the skinheads who attacked him get worse prison sentences. Why? Crime is crime is crime.

      All the violent animals (white, black, brown, red, green, or polka-dotted) need to feel the Hammer of Justice, regardless!
      • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -2/+5THat's what you get for dating Asian guys.

        Seriously, that was a joke. Also, this group of people beat you up for hanging out with him. As you were together, I'm quite sure they would be punished almost evenly... one guy would get the fluffy sentence for ratting out his friends.
      • staticneuron, on 12/07/2007, -0/+2They would all get charged with hate crimes and of course beating you would net them heavier sentances as well. Its not as if they get points off for beating you up. Here is something you might not know..... a white guy can beat up another white guy and get charged with a hate crime. If it is felt that Sexuality/race/nationality ore even religion was involved. So the rules don't change based off of your race.... just the way the media reports it.
    • Liam76, on 12/07/2007, -1/+1i think hate crime laws are dumb, however if there are hate crime laws onthe book (I think there are i n Baltimore) it is racist ot only use them when it is white on black crime (especially considering that most crime in baltimore is the other way).
    • Tyrghast, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1Bitch shoulda stayed in the kitchen and ***** like this wouldn't have happened...
  • Aitese, on 12/07/2007, -6/+143This was clearly to do with her race. Growing up I knew way too many black adults who underachieved and would have me believe it was all whitey's fault. By shifting the blame of fatherless homes, high crime rates and lack of educational ambition onto white people we are breeding a generation of pointlessly angry black youth with chips on their shoulders. I hope these young fools get the book thrown at them...hopefully one of them will pick it up and read it.
    • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -9/+7I teach just those kids you are talking about in my adult education class. It's aimed at getting hurricane victims a craft so they can A) work and B) help rebuild still damaged areas.
      They are no better and no worse than anyone. None of them blame whitey for their situations. Sure, there are a couple of bad apples. And most people only see that minority and turn a blind eye to the people really trying to struggle.
      A kid (18 years old) came to me for advice last night. He refuses any kind of government aid, and is raising a child by himself. His child's mother lives 12 hours away so that she can finish school. His biggest problem is child care while he works.
      I sent him towards a job where he will have less earning potential, but more benefits for the kid. It's going to be a rough 8 months until both parents can be together again - but I'm sure he's up to the challenge. How many people with less difficult lives would accept that challenge?
      • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -3/+2Wow, this is the last comment I thought I would be buried for.
        • TerraIncognito, on 12/07/2007, -2/+1kind of wondering that myself...
      • kbeast, on 12/07/2007, -0/+5Just because they have it real tough doesn't mean they need to kill people. I hate everything, and I had it bad for a long time. Doesn't mean I have a mug shot either.
        • bsonline, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1I had it "real bad" as well for a while. I don't have a mug shot, either... but I wasn't raised in a community of criminals. They say if you go to prison for a minor crime, you are released as a criminal - because of what you learned in prison. Imagine growing up around some of these people.
        • kingvik, on 12/08/2007, -0/+1I did grow up around these people and I don't have a mug shot. Where you grow up has an impact but not as big as people make it out, the people have to be smart enough to know right from wrong.
    • jmarskoder, on 12/07/2007, -4/+5Hrm, tell me why is there "fatherless homes, high crime rates and lack of educational ambition." That's the interesting question.
      • carnytrash, on 12/07/2007, -1/+4It's because of the white devils. It's because whitey is something else.
      • starkruzr, on 12/07/2007, -1/+13A self-perpetuating culture of being the victim. Bill Cosby has spoken about this at length, and is shouted down every time.
        • xdre, on 12/07/2007, -4/+1Wrong, and no he isn't. People were upset with him for "airing the dirty laundry" so publicly, and your post is one of the prime reasons why.
      • flashingcurser, on 12/07/2007, -2/+1An even more interesting question is why there were far less "fatherless homes, high crime rates and lack of educational ambition" 3, 4, and 5 decades ago in the black community. In fact there were less right after the civil war, at least as far as fatherless homes.
      • bsonline, on 12/07/2007, -3/+1You know the rich get richer quote...
        This effects communities over generations. Just think of the last 30 years of people going downhill. If your grandfather left your grandmother when your father was a baby, there is a decent chance your father and you are going to repeat that mistake. Add in having no money from a two income family to grow a retirement, or even lay a foundation for someone's future... then compound it every generation.
        Some people do improve themselves. It's a lot harder to get a piece of the American dream if you start off in a nightmare.
    • Koopaloop, on 12/08/2007, -1/+1Im no history major but I think you may be oversimplifying the issue. And I think your the same as me(who knows maybe not) in that your a white male who grew up on a middle class family. I have now Idea how my life would be if I hadnt grown up this advantageous situations. Yes I am making excuses for Black Americans but I think they are valid ones.
      • Aitese, on 12/10/2007, -0/+1Dude...a quick look at my profile pic will let you know I'm black.