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Guess Who's Getting the Most Work Visas?

businessweek.com — Overall, six of the top 10 visa recipients in 2007 are based in India; two others among the top 10, Cognizant Technology Solutions (CTSH) and UST Global, are headquartered in the U.S. but have most of their operations in India...undermining the American economy by wiping out jobs.

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  • Member148, on 03/10/2008, -33/+23What are India's technical educational schools doing to produce such excellent graduates vs. American technical schools? Seems to me if we want more qualified techs we need to improve our technical training to mimic India's. Evidentially that is to much trouble so we will just have to keep putting money into inferior education and supply Visa's to get qualified individuals to work here in the U.S., while our tech graduates become waiters in restaurants, because they don't have the qualifications to get hire by U.S. firms. Go figure.
    • amightywind, on 03/10/2008, -7/+89I interview Indian job candidates regularly. The ones with US training are ok. The ones training in India are not. They are let into the country because they are cheap. American business has always loved slave labor.
      • sadilak, on 03/10/2008, -15/+8Are you crazy? The decline in american education because of their "No child gets left behind" policy, which also is the main reason why all the other nations have gone ahead in terms of school education. Also remember that India is hugely populated. So even if only 10% of the people who get into IT are good, that 10% is an enormous number. What americans learn in their 8th grade, Indians learn in their 5th or 6th grade. There is a massive gap between education in India and education in USA.
        • douggmc, on 03/10/2008, -1/+5This says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

          Law firms advising companies on how to get H1-B visas. If you are too lazy/buzy to watch all 5 minutes ... skip to about 1:30 .. .but recommend whole thing.
          • amightywind, on 03/10/2008, -4/+2Believe it or not Mr. Lebowitz is a college buddy of my brother. He is quite a nice guy. But his profession encourages him to do things he probably wouldn't ordinarily do. Such it is with lawyers.
        • rpgmaker, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1I'm from Dominican Republic and that statement is true even here. I have two friends that have lived in the US and assisted to their schools for several years and say the same thing when they compare the education system.
      • madeingermany, on 03/10/2008, -2/+7> They are let into the country because they are cheap.
        "For every H-1B petition filed with the USCIS, there must be included a Labor Condition Application (LCA) certified by the U.S. Department of Labor. The LCA is designed to ensure that the wage offered to the non-immigrant worker must meet or exceed the "prevailing wage" in the area of employment."
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B#Worker_protectio ...

        If companies are still bringing in cheap labor via the H-1B program then the Immigration (USCIS) is not doing their job.

        I'm in the US on an H-1B and I surely wouldn't be here, if I would make less then my coworkers :p
      • sanman, on 03/10/2008, -2/+2Excuse me, but value is always defined as return relative to cost. If you feel that money is no object, then offer to pay $1M/hr, and you'll get Einsteins mailing you their resumes every time.

        Regarding "cheap labor", I'd point out that no worker tries to work for bottom dollar. People work for what they can get. If I could get a job within my skillset for $1M/hr, don't you think I'd take it? So would you. The idea that just because someone is working for less than you, that their skills are automatically inferior, shows your own arrogance. Go out there and show off your stuff, if you think you're worth it, hotshot.
        • amightywind, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2You are not thinking clearly. Employers have additional leverage on H1-Bs that they do not with citizens. They can revoke sponsorship of H1-Bs and send them home. H1-Bs value being in the US. That leverage translates into lower salaries.
    • TomK88, on 03/10/2008, -9/+39I doubt it has anything to do with skills. Indian accents alone are reason enough for American corporations to want to stick with Americans. Still, price will always be the determining factor and that is why America will continue to outsource jobs.
      • digjam, on 03/10/2008, -9/+5I firmly disagree with you Sir, I agree Indian accent is NOT same as American accent, but not bad enough that its totally incomprehensible. But again, for a person in Texas ..the NY accent is difficult to understand and vice versa. The quality of education in India is highly regarded. The simple things like Calculators are not allowed until u are in undergraduation speaks for itself. The things which are taught here in 10th grade are taught in India in 5th grade. Maths and Science are prominent in Indian education. And remember one thing... Indians who come here for Masters HAVE to write GRE and TOEFL.. and if you know what they are...you really need skill to pass them ...And remember..English is the first language since 1st grade...unlike other countries...
        Regarding low cost... I agree Infosys brings in cheap labor... one thing no body knows around is if Infy is bringing in people on H1-B visas they pay atleast 60k for the position..which in my opinion is not "CHEAP" by any means.

        The sole reason US is loosing jobs is because of the quality of education not because of anything else... The % of graduates in India is much higher compared to that in USA.. The govt has to pour money into education to lift the standards..as long as you have lack luster undergraduate education...its very difficult to catch up with India and China.

        I must say tho, the Masters education is much better here.
        • baconman, on 03/10/2008, -4/+3education? are you kidding me? you obviously have no idea what is going on. 60k for a h1-b? hah
          indians are cheap. that is it, the one and only reason.
          • sanman, on 03/10/2008, -3/+7and you, sir, are a cheapshot artist.
            As if any job "belongs" to you. Dream the ***** on.
            It's like GM with their ***** car designers complaining that Toyota is "stealing" their customers. ***** that. Nobody is forcing car buyers to choose Toyota. Design better cars instead of farting around, and people will buy them.

            "Waaah! It's no fair! I like free market competition! Except when I'm losing! WaaAAaaahh!!"

            You may be losing, ***** -- but the customers are winning. They're getting more for their money.
        • execute85, on 03/10/2008, -4/+3I've never run into anyone who can't understand a NY accent (is there even really a new york accent?). However, I've had several phone calls (with random IT support as well as programmers from our offshore partner) where I had to ask them to spell out words.

          This whole thing about Indian school is so much harder is total BS. Memorizing for tests is why No Child Left Behind is flawed. There is more to education than taking tests in math and science. Also look at how many millions take the test in India.

          Finally, 60k is cheap when the going rate is 80k. So it is cheap by some means.
      • nachyaonline, on 03/10/2008, -2/+5http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XehNQ2OMfE
        Watch this and you will know why India is on the rise.
        Talking about accents, I live in CA and I find it hard to understand Southern accent.
    • legendxx, on 03/10/2008, -17/+20Indians can't program for *****. Never outsource your stuff unless you like debugging foreign code yourself.
      • santasing, on 03/10/2008, -5/+6Foreign code?
        • snugglebear, on 03/10/2008, -4/+8Comments in hindi. They're not very helpful.
          • Ebulating, on 03/10/2008, -1/+9Another major issue is the variable names that non-English speakers pick rarely make any sense to English speakers.
      • nachyaonline, on 03/10/2008, -0/+7This topic concerns Indian's already in the US, you are confusing it with outsourcing which is a different issue. If you think Indians who attend American universities can't code you are mistaken. I work with many Indians at a top software firm, half of my team is Indian and they are top notch programmers.
        • yojiffyskippy, on 03/11/2008, -0/+6I agree 100%, I've worked with hardware & software designers from India and they were just as qualified as their US counterparts. Nationality may play a major factor in the recruitment/screening process but after that it doesn't make much of a difference. I also agree that the issues of "outsourcing" and "work visas" are completely separate issues. "Outsourcing" has EVERYTHING to do with wage/labor disparity while "work visas" have NOTHING to do with wage/labor disparity.
    • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/10/2008, -0/+11We need to half the number of roster spots for degrees like psychology and law.
    • noahhoward, on 03/10/2008, -1/+18Cheap, not excellent.
    • insanebrain, on 03/10/2008, -1/+1nvrmnd
    • drmangrum, on 03/10/2008, -3/+6You can get an entry level american tech for roughly 50k/yr or an entry level indian tech for 35k/year. That's it. It doesn't matter if the tech actually knows his stuff, the corporates just want warm bodies to fill in the contracted positions.
    • meno911, on 03/10/2008, -4/+4About 1/2 of the Indians I know make more than 130k a year. I also know exactly why these indian people who I know make that much--Is that working for peanuts? It's a shame that your introspective comment got dugg down. It's a sign they should make the mouse more complicated to use.
    • sanman, on 03/10/2008, -6/+3Tell me, smartass, where does the US rank on the international math olympiad competition? They're nowhere near the top. And even then, it's always the Asian American kids who make up the entirety of the US team. Look at all the idiots on Digg, who can't even spell worth a *****. And then they're cribbing over why harder-working young people in other countries are passing them by. Too many idiots in college whose main priority is to get laid, or wasted, or both.

      Here, read this, dickwads:

      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2 ...
    • TheG2, on 03/11/2008, -3/+4For more reading on this sort of thing, I recommend "The World is Flat" by Thomas L. Friedman. It's a great examination of the outsourcing industry, it's causes, and where its heading. The book was eye-opening and I'm only half way through it.

      If you think India is a big problem, wait til China starts to take off, it'll be 2 times larger than the Indian outsourcing boom.
  • ephramauslander, on 03/10/2008, -2/+38I feel like each influx of immigrants have spawned corporate abuse of cheap labor. I blame companies themselves for looking only at their profits and not at their employees. AMightyWind, I'm glad that you're choosing employees that have the right skills rather than the right price.
    • TomK88, on 03/10/2008, -6/+32Corporations #1 goal is to look out for the interest of their shareholders. They have no obligation to their employees.
      • hydroplane, on 03/10/2008, -6/+17That's the kind of asshat thinking that has everything screwed up.
        • subliminalurge, on 03/10/2008, -4/+13It's also reality.
        • Tyr7BE, on 03/10/2008, -3/+3Not necessarily. Ask anyone in India and I'm sure they're THRILLED with this turn of events. It's the kind of asshat thinking that has everything screwed up for America. All it's done is turned the tables.
        • TomK88, on 03/10/2008, -2/+7It's reality. Corporations, by law, have to look out for the interests of their shareholders first and foremost.
          • Ebulating, on 03/10/2008, -1/+5Well then perhaps the shareholders and employees should be one and the same!
          • TomK88, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2Might as well go back in time a couple hundred years.
      • sadilak, on 03/10/2008, -1/+3Yep. That is the only answer. Today it is india, tomorrow, it can even be sudan. At the end of it all, employees dont matter(atleast at the developer level).
    • douggmc, on 03/10/2008, -3/+4This says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

      Law firms advising companies on how to get H1-B visas. If you are too lazy/buzy to watch all 5 minutes ... skip to about 1:30 .. .but recommend whole thing.
      • bobzibub, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1Show me a law firm that advocates going extra steps beyond what the law requires in any regulatory area and I'll show you a law firm with a lot of non-billed time on their hands. How is this news?
    • active1x0, on 03/10/2008, -3/+3The blame goes straight to the government: higher corporate taxes, federally-mandated benefits, wage control. They provide things that not all employees need, and drive up the cost to employ Americans. All of these things, and many more I haven't listed here, do so much harm to businesses in America, especially small business ventures. Sure, they look great on a politician's credentials ("I raised wages and taxed those evil corporations!"), but look who really ends up getting the raw end of the deal: the American worker.

      Government at work, folks!
      • jmcmullin, on 03/19/2008, -1/+0yeah...cause corporate taxes are sky high
    • scamper22, on 03/10/2008, -0/+2Here's a novel idea.

      tie the number of workers allowed on an H1B visa to the percentage of profit spent on the average worker (salary, training...all inclusive).

      So Company A is raking in gizillions in profits, but is not increasing salaries of its workers will not be able to bring in H1Bs. Clearly they have plenty of profits to pay real wages for US workers and to train their current workers for any expertise needed.

      Company B is making paying its workers well, spending globs on training, but still can't find enough qualified people...they get H1B visa. They need some crazy Indian mathematician, they can get em.

      This way the H1b program works as intended.
      • yojiffyskippy, on 03/11/2008, -1/+2Attempted government regulation and/or manipulation of the free market never works.
        • scamper22, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2H1b visas are government regulation/manipulation of the freemarket in the first place.

          Maybe one day the fantasy free market will appear with complete free movement of people and goods and wages. until that time, we have to deal with reality.
    • jabberwolf, on 03/11/2008, -1/+3You do know that this is capitalism that the USA is based on. Are we now complaining that its unfair ?
      If you want to compete in the global market so be it, but dont complain when they compete back !

      If we have better educated people in the USA then that will drive the demand here instead of China, maybe we should stop complaining and finally invest more in education.
      • CaptNemo, on 03/11/2008, -0/+3Capitalism is based on fair competition. Dumping cheap labor into a market is NOT fair competition, it's dumping and is illegal in most circumstances.
    • nalimca, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2The real problem with H1B is not the visa itself but the wide spread fraud/abuse associated with the visa. Does anyone actually believe InfoSys, Wipro really need so many Indian employees in the US while they exhausted their talent pool in India?
  • olenick, on 03/10/2008, -12/+47The primary purpose of the current H1B program is to keep a ceiling on tech-worker wages and to facilitate offshoring jobs to India, not to bring the "best and brightest" to the US. It'd be easy enough to reform the program to encourage geniuses though. First, and most importantly, make an H1B (or it's new version: maybe we'll call it the H2B?) portable: allow those who have them to quit and find a new job. Since they're so bright, this shouldn't be a problem. Second, prohibit anybody on H1B from working with on a team that has more than 10% of the team based in their home country. To enforce this, allow employees to turn in employers and get large rewards, the employer -- who would never again be eligible to hire H1B's -- would pay. Third, prohibit any H1B from working on a US-team that is more than 10% H1B's: again, this shouldn't be necessary and should have the same penalty as above. Fourth, specifically amend US law to outlaw discrimination against US citizens in higher education and in employment and add draconian enforcement provisions. Finally, add a hard 10% cap to the total number of H1B's any company can have at the parent level, and include all workers -- specifically including contractors -- on the cap. With provisions like these I'd support an H1B program with no cap on it. Anybody have any others?
    Finally, remember the fight isn't about immigration but about unfair competition: I think there are very few people against the immigration aspect: out concerns with the H1B program stem from it's design to systematically drive down our standard of living. Like the Northerner's of the last century it's tough to compete against slavery, and we shouldn't have to.
    • DarkSamus, on 03/10/2008, -24/+16paragraphs *****, DO YOU SPEAK IT?
      • execute85, on 03/10/2008, -1/+4Sometimes, paragraphs have more than 1 sentence. This guy had two paragraphs, no big deal.
      • BoneStamp, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2I am with you man. At least a line break for each point would be nice. PS - chill out on the caps.
    • elasticsoul, on 03/10/2008, -5/+12Your reply did not provide a shining example.
    • milkmage, on 03/10/2008, -2/+3"Finally, add a hard 10% cap to the total number of H1B's any company can have at the parent level, and include all workers -- specifically including contractors -- on the cap." - brilliant. So companies (LIKE MINE) will just BUILD AN OPERATIONS CENTER over there. Not only do you lose the jobs for the people that work INSIDE the facility, but the US companies that BUILD such facilities also lose the work. Doesn't matter though, in 5 years labor from India will be just as expensive as it is here.
      • Phylodome, on 03/10/2008, -2/+1Yes, the answer to failed regulation is what? More regulation, of course! wow. How about ensuring that the American populous doesn't become oversaturated with worthless "marketing/PR" majors that provide very little real value to the economy, and furthermore disincentivize any real skill development among the american workforce?
      • BoneStamp, on 03/10/2008, -0/+4And in 20 years we'll be doing tech support for China because they'll have all the wealth.
  • zolthar, on 03/10/2008, -4/+46You can't compete with India when it comes to cheap salaries.
    And that is the bottom line, even if their engineers would suck, a small team will still cost less then one US engineer.
    • zolthar, on 03/10/2008, -5/+9err... I meant no disrespect to Indian engineers, it was just an example.
      • dasbush, on 03/10/2008, -4/+13lolz at the backpedal
      • mavar, on 03/10/2008, -3/+16None taken. I am an Indian [working for a startup trying to create a product out of our own, we are based in India.

        Fact of the matter is that, it *is* finally about the money. The only reason why Indians get these jobs instead of Chinese is that we are a lot better educated in English compared to the average Chinese. As much tough it is to talk to Indians in English, it is better than talking to Chinese in English. Chinese are on an average extremely hardworking and would probably work at the same wages that Indians do. Indians are extremely lazy on an average, when compared to the Chinese. Companies are going to hang on to India only till it makes sense.
        • sadilak, on 03/10/2008, -9/+5You are just selling out on indians. Having an accent does not mean that it is difficult to understand. You are lazy, dont extend that to everyone else around you. It is not just about the money, it is about education too. Indians, on the whole are qualified enough to compete at a global level. Everybody is accented.An australian speaks english in manner that is very difficult for americans to understand. Ditto with Scots and Irish too.

          Also, to your point that Indians are lazy, it is so untrue, you are lazy and feel guilty of the fact that that you are essentially a sloth bear. That does not mean that all the Indians are lazy. Stop selling out your countrymen just to look good.
    • WNW3, on 03/10/2008, -1/+15"You can't compete with India when it comes to cheap salaries."
      China can
      • RoshanK, on 03/10/2008, -0/+4But it's harder for them to speak Engrish
    • nekama, on 03/10/2008, -3/+4Just have regulations that rise to meet the challenge of removing said incentive to go to those countries.
    • drmangrum, on 03/10/2008, -8/+14Except the US engineer will get it done cheaper, faster, and correct the first time.
      • vafada, on 03/10/2008, -12/+6another "I'm American, I'm better than everyone else" B.S.
        • fokov, on 03/10/2008, -0/+7Obviously you haven't seen consulting work from over there.
        • drmangrum, on 03/11/2008, -1/+3Absolutely not. Perhaps I should have said Western. Be it American, Canadian, European, whatever, they will do the job far better than any cheap Indian labor.
    • ametory, on 03/10/2008, -1/+5I challenge you to search for a job in dice,monster,careerbuilder for a particular keyword. Calculate an approximate unique postings from that. And tell me if it is less than 65,000 at any given TIME? jobs are added everyday. To get a H1 you must have already the job, which means it will not come up in the board, and even if it did, 65,000 includes all keywords and all fields. Get it
  • julianwan, on 03/10/2008, -8/+6anyone but americans?
  • warholsbluecat, on 03/10/2008, -11/+50THEY TOOK ARE JERRRBBBBBBBSSSS
    • pschommer, on 03/10/2008, -6/+3Exactly what I thought when I saw this, but I couldn't figure out how to spell the final word. Well done.
  • deviouskoopa, on 03/10/2008, -6/+3Wow I guessed right...

    Also, for your entertainment (only partially related):
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ryas9OANw-E
  • pampusik, on 03/10/2008, -23/+18What do you mean by "wiping out jobs?" They're filling jobs Americans are not qualified to do. Let's face it, America is a country in decline. As long as we succumb to anti-intellectualism (see today's top digg from Oklahoma) and dumb down our society, we'll need to import our knowledge-based workers from abroad.
    • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/10/2008, -8/+1Yeah where there's the other side of the isle too where some educators want to teach math with new age methods where students can "explore" with answers, because it's more psychologically acceptable
      • Phylodome, on 03/10/2008, -3/+1try more psychologically effective...
        • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/11/2008, -1/+2Well being mathmatetically effictive is the point of learning math.
    • xero69, on 03/10/2008, -2/+16A friend of mine in human resources with a big name tach company was told to trash perfectly good American applicants. Why? So the company could hire foreign workers and save money on wages. I know not ALL companies abuse the visa work system, but I bet more than a handful do so knowingly just to save a buck.
      • Herostratos, on 03/10/2008, -6/+3Well, whats the problem? You people are usually on the front lines when it comes to demanding that wealth be shared with the poorer part of the world, but when the poorer part comes over to your place and starts to compete with the poor, underpaid underclass we all know that engineers are you all go into "TOOK OUR JEEERBS" mode. Hypocrites, all of you.
        • subliminalurge, on 03/10/2008, -1/+4What's the problem? Are you serious?

          I do believe in helping those less fortunate than myself. Despite my sometimes abrasive tone on places like Digg, anyone who knows me IRL would describe me as a very kind, generous, giving person.

          The problem is that no matter how hungry they are, you don't take a dinner plate away from your own child in order to feed the neighbor. You have to take care of your own before you give things away to others.

          I would have no problem at all with H1B workers if American workers were still being given a fair shot at living up to their own career potential. In far too many cases, they are not. Visas should not be issued to fill high level jobs that companies want to save money on, they should be issued to fill the ***** jobs that nobody else wants after qualified Americans are promoted to fill the good positions.
    • noahhoward, on 03/10/2008, -0/+8Not qualified to run phones or program? What are you smoking?
    • subliminalurge, on 03/10/2008, -0/+14You've got it backwards. For a very long time now highly qualified American tech workers have been watching jobs go to much less qualified H1B workers, for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with ability.

      There's something very, very wrong when H1B workers need to ask someone from the Desktop Support or Helpdesk departments for assistance with configuring a router or debugging a program that they're writing. Yes, I've seen it happen. I was with a large company where Americans could pretty much get only the lowest level tech jobs, in spite of the fact that many of us were more qualified than the H1B workers who were brought in to do the "hard stuff". I was one of those Desktop Support guys who assisted in the things that you claim American workers aren't qualified for.

      It's one of the main reasons that I now only work for smaller companies that only hire American workers.
    • republicker, on 03/10/2008, -0/+11Its about money, not qualifications.
    • Olfster, on 03/10/2008, -0/+10Sure, I agree. If your meaning of not qualified is not being able to meet the 10 years of experience programming for the Vista OS. Or how about the requirement that you must have 10 years experience with C# or 20 years with Java. Oh, by the way you also must be experienced in "xyz" (insert your arcane technology acronym here). If you cannot meet those requirements we are assured someone in India can, at a quarter of your salary. Really they told us so. I think you get my drift.
      • subliminalurge, on 03/10/2008, -0/+5I dug you back up to counteract the dig down you got from someone who has obviously not been out in the job market in recent years.
      • nutsackninja, on 03/10/2008, -0/+4Olfster you are 100% right, most companies demand years of experience in software that is built internally and that no one else besides people working there has a chance of knowing. They post these jobs don't find anyone "qualified" and keep the H1B worker because well he has experience working with some 30 year old AS400 program.
    • kaelyiesta, on 03/10/2008, -0/+6*****. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Being a part of the group of american workers whose work has been outsourced, I would know. Technical jobs are being outsourced for one reason: The bottom line.

      No matter the excuse given, like "outsourcers say they're helping U.S. companies stay competitive", its *****. Competitive my ass, you only need special help to stay competitive if others are getting special help from the government as well. Stop this ***** and no one will have any excuse to need it too.

      I've met plenty of competent foreign programmers, but that is not relevant to the issue at hand. Our government should not be in the business of giving hand outs to industry.
  • amneosis, on 03/10/2008, -4/+22I wish they taught Undermining the American Economy at my college.
    • septicmadman, on 03/10/2008, -1/+4Pretty sure it is called law and justice.
    • Herostratos, on 03/10/2008, -10/+3Why, Digg teaches it every day. It is called protectionism and xenophobia. Ya know, if the regulations on foreign workers were as strict as they you guys wants it the founders of google would never have entered the US and the company would never have been created. Now you bitch about google employing foreign workers?
      • mediaman2, on 03/10/2008, -7/+1Here, here. It's amazing how much racism occurs here, by people who consider themselves intellectually superior.

        I'm sure, of course, that were their skin brown and their city of birth in India, they would bitch nonstop about evil Americans and how they make five times more for equivalent skillsets and then refuse any opportunity to foreign workers. The arrogance.

        If you refuse to let them in the US, then our companies will merely find them abroad.
        • noreaction, on 03/10/2008, -3/+1Reactionary racism towards immigrants was so pre-WWII.
    • Vodka2389, on 03/10/2008, -3/+41. Receive less pay.
      2. ???
      3. Profit.
    • noreaction, on 03/10/2008, -4/+2It is also called international economics.
    • TonyLocNE, on 03/11/2008, -2/+1pretty sure the class you're looking for is Econ211 (or so). Without outsourcing and specialization, the United States economy would be severely stagnant.. Take an economics class then comment and speculate.
    • edgedmurasame, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1They teach it at the University of Chicago's Economics division - not for a good reason.
  • garryw, on 03/10/2008, -18/+36High school students, if you are reading this, pay attention. You are better off as a nurse changing bags of piss than trying to get a job as an engineer in the US. Do not study math and physics, you cannot get wealthy with them. Be a lawyer and sue people, or perhaps you can sell insurance.
    • duster805, on 03/10/2008, -11/+26This is perhaps the stupidest comment I've ever read on Digg (and that's saying a lot). You sir, are an idiot and although you don't deserve an educated response, I'll give you one. Engineering is the highest paying lower graduate degree (you can look that up) and as someone who employees developers and network engineers, I can tell you the supply is LOW and therefore, they are not cheap (because very few Americans major in CS). We don't pay non-natives any differently then Americans and at the end of the day an American has a significant advantage by speaking fluent English. Any decent developer should be making 100k plus within 5 years of graduating, which is more than I can say for a HS degree. Nursing is also a very high paying profession due to a lack of labor (minimum 70 - 80k average wages currently).

      It's your kind of ignorant and lazy thinking that unfortunately permeates the US today and makes us a secondary society when it comes to technical education.
      • Herostratos, on 03/10/2008, -2/+12I wish I could tripledigg people,
      • garryw, on 03/10/2008, -3/+7SHHH.. I'm just trying to lower the supply. I make 100K+ as a BSME but... fewer BSME's = more money for me. It's econ 101. Scare the kids away and take it all is what I say.
        • BoneStamp, on 03/10/2008, -1/+7hehe, ya I the whole time I was thinking ... "I'm rich and know lots of other rich engineers that surf digg half the day. This guy has got to be kidding." Therefore I dugg you up, even though I didn't agree with what you said. It made me laugh -- partially because the truth is so different and also because you used "then" like you skipped English class and make way more money than most people of the people who were skipping class with you.
        • bariswheel, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2So instead of admitting that what you had plagiarized in the beginning to be your opinion you realized was not a well thought out statement, you tried to make it look as if you were being clever. Apparently not clever enough to fool some diggers. I would've given you credit for giving the person who responded to your idiotic gibberish some credit, but you didn't. So now you made yourself look like an even bigger douche. I LOL.

      • RoshanK, on 03/10/2008, -2/+4most stupid, not stupidest.
    • digjam, on 03/10/2008, -2/+1Well thats what most of the high school WILL do if they drop out...
    • ametory, on 03/10/2008, -5/+13I cannot believe the BS going on in this board. If you are skilled, you WILL get a job AT THE RATE you expect. PERIOD. The BS about H1-b is that only 65,000 are given every year(of which 20,000 are for foreigners with Master from US universities). And also H1-B inxludes all countries, not just India(Though Indians/Chinese are getting most of them). Compare that to the number of Americans in the age group of 21-35 in IT. Are you telling me that only 65,000 IT jobs are there in US(I am guessing it would be in the tens of millions)? Are you kidding me?Are you telling tens of millions of Americans in IT industry are not able to compete with 65,000 people/year. That shows how weak Americans are. One more thing h1-B again is not just for tech jobs, it is also given for engg, biotech,pharmaceuticals,etc and other fields First do your research.
  • WolfHook, on 03/10/2008, -6/+22It's no different in England. myself and the rest of the team lost their jobs to a team of Indian workers. As stated above it is all about shareholders and profits. I am due to start a new job in a week and that is an up and coming business, give it a year or two and I believe they will out source it all as well.
    • nekama, on 03/10/2008, -3/+5That's what you get when you let business get into the government.
    • Herostratos, on 03/10/2008, -12/+3Why exactly did you have more of a right to that job than the Indians? Your pretty white skin? Because you happened to be born within a certain geographic area? Sorry, but being born British or whatever does not entitle you to a job. Being willing to work hard and cheap does.
      • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3What do you think he should do?
        • pleasureismine, on 03/10/2008, -6/+1Be a better worker for starters. Be so good that he becomes indispensable.
        • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -0/+2@ pleasureismine
          So the average worker needs to be better than everyone else in the world that's interested? That's not going to happen. This is about the equalization of markets.
        • Herostratos, on 03/10/2008, -3/+1I dunno... Get another job? In any case, if the Indians are not allowed to take the job you can ask: What do you think THEY should do? They have considerably fewer options than him.
        • LokitheComplex, on 03/11/2008, -1/+3You mean get a lower paid job it until that goes? I could say the Indians should as you say Get another job? But I'm not that glib. Of course the Indians are theoretically more "deserving" but there is a balancing of wealth going on and our friend here is paying the price. You might say to him there are people more "worthy" but does that mean his anger is less real?
      • scamper22, on 03/10/2008, -4/+1You know I agree with you 100%, except the rest of the society does not play by those rules.

        I venture to say most engineers are quite libertarian in their thoughts and favor free trade and globalization the most. I worked with many indians in my last job and they're just regular folks.

        I'd be more than happy to take a 20% pay cut to remain competitive.

        Will teachers?
        Will construction workers?
        Will transit workers?
        Wil unions?
        Will we cut the minimum wage 20% too?

        The answer to all these question is NO. So please spare the man your lecture about pretty white skin. It's Britain for gods sake. They have heavy unionization. If we were to follow your advice, he'd have to cut his salary to be less than the salary of a cashier in the UK. Now that would make sense right?
      • BoneStamp, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2Hard work is not synonymous with quality. I know people that work all night and can't put together decent work, in the US and India. The way I see it is that the job should go to the best qualified person in the same country that is giving the company huge tax breaks to provide jobs within that country, otherwise they lose all tax credits. I have nothing against outsourcing unless that company is getting big corporate tax breaks which are intended to help that company grow so they can hire more people and improve the quality of life in that country.
    • lysdexia, on 03/10/2008, -2/+7You lost your job to capital movement. The Indians are irrelevant other than the sense it makes to capital. Perhaps it will be Africa next, then Peru or whatever next cheap labour source capital can find to flow to.
    • ametory, on 03/10/2008, -4/+1Here is a fact for you. The number of IT jobs in India are around 1 million. Assuming call center includes IT. If you think I am lying why dont you add up the number of employees of infosys,wipro,tcs?? You will be surprised. And yes if every single country blames India for its job, I wonder who the hell is getting these jobs in India. The GDP contriputed by IT indiustry in India in less than 5%. I have given the FACTS. Have you?
  • bsmang, on 03/10/2008, -3/+24I lost a good software development job at a major US manufacturer to contractors from India.. 6 years ago. They could afford a team of developers in India for the cost of a single one here. They moved their entire "help desk" to Indian call centers, too.
    • huaone, on 03/10/2008, -4/+3well, it's either hiring indians over there or over here. At least when they come on h1bs over here, they have to pay taxes
    • bsmang, on 03/10/2008, -0/+6Yeah, there and here... In the building where I worked, Americans were a definite minority.
    • likwidfuzion, on 03/10/2008, -0/+5A similar situation happened to my cousin who works at Intel as a Senior Architect.
  • reefsurfer226, on 03/10/2008, -3/+17"undermining the American economy by wiping out jobs." i hear they are always looking for motivated people to add to the McDonalds family. but seriously you cant resist the power globalization, welcome to the dark side
    • Archer007, on 03/10/2008, -4/+2There is a bright side, too.
    • Olfster, on 03/10/2008, -1/+3In the U.S.? Sorry, I think you are misinformed. You must be bilingual for that McD job. Albeit I could be wrong about that notion. Just speaking from experience. Sigh... I wish they taught Spanish as a second language when I was in grade school. At least now they teach English, and I am not talking about English grammar. Had I learned Spanish I might have been able to get a second job to tie me over until I could find another programming gig.
    • Herostratos, on 03/10/2008, -3/+2The US has a 4.5 % unemployment rate, this is a good rate if you compare to the EU or almost any other country, and it is lower than in many other periods in American history.
      • freddc, on 03/10/2008, -1/+3Not if you don't drop those who lost theirs and "gave up"
    • kero552, on 03/10/2008, -1/+4I don't believe statistics I don't make up myself.
      In USA, anyone unemployed for more than 6 months is not included in unemployment rate. Please correct me, if I am wrong. In EU (or at least country I live myself), everyone without job (he has to be registered, but basically everyone is due to social benefits) is included in the rate.
      • kero552, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3Sorry, this should be reply to Herostratos comment.
  • Phssthpok, on 03/10/2008, -5/+10Don't think H1B visas displace American workers? Check this out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
  • xero69, on 03/10/2008, -9/+13Boycott any company that uses an Indian call center, hit'em in the pocketbook! They can afford it since they are paying so little for support staff anyways.
    • fintheman, on 03/10/2008, -2/+4I have start changing products and services to ones that only use American reps.

      American Express!!! Good on you!
      • dariendynamite, on 03/10/2008, -0/+1not to know what you're saying....but call centre in Toronto, Canada. My parents work there.
        so you're likely talking to canadian peeps

        (but we love you)
        • dariendynamite, on 03/10/2008, -0/+0bah, i can't spell. Meant knock* instead of know.
    • sadilak, on 03/10/2008, -6/+2Why not try and improve your skills instead of bitching about call centers.
      • SammyJr, on 03/10/2008, -1/+5The problem isn't skills, its costs of labor.
    • ametory, on 03/10/2008, -0/+1Yes let Indians and Chinese also start boycotting all American brands.
      • SammyJr, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1LOL. What brands? Most American brands are just importers that slap their name on some Chinese made crap.
  • Sackula, on 03/10/2008, -6/+17This is basic economics: If a company can get labor for cheaper, they do it. Welcome to international competition...
    • noahhoward, on 03/10/2008, -2/+11Wonder how long it will take for the companies to realize you're not going to make ***** if you put your consumers out of a job in order to cut costs.
      • Stochio, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2That makes as much sense as loaning someone $5 so they can buy a sandwich from you...every day.

      • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -0/+1They gain as new markets emerge. They have to globalize or die.
    • pleasureismine, on 03/10/2008, -2/+1Not true, you always want to higher the best value: good quality over good price.
    • ametory, on 03/10/2008, -4/+1Can you cite any studies that says H1-B employees are getting underpaid than their American counterparts? Wake up
  • BobSconce, on 03/10/2008, -15/+9"undermining the US economy by wiping out jobs"? Oh, please. In the year ended January 2008, the economy created 800,000 more jobs than it lost. We lost about 650,000 jobs that paid, on average, about $19/hr, but gained almost 1,000,000 that paid, on average $19.57/hr, plus another 460,000 that paid, on average, $11.50.
    You can't continually add jobs without getting rid of some. Does anybody think that we'd really be better off if we still had 60% of our population engaged in Agriculture? All those jobs were either moved offshore or lost to machines. And we are better for it.
    • gannina, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1So if all these new jobs are being created that pay so well, why is the US in a recession? Think about that while your working your shift at McDonalds or Walmart.
  • alpha754293, on 03/10/2008, -15/+28That's cuz Americans are fat, lazy, and stupid. If you want proof, look who they elected into office...twice.
    • Antares29, on 03/10/2008, -7/+8Yeah, Clinton was fat, lazy and stupid.
      • likwidfuzion, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2I believe he was referring to American citizens being fat, lazy, and stupid...
        • Antares29, on 03/10/2008, -2/+2Really? You read my comment and all you could think is "Oh, he must of thought the other guy was talking about the President being fat, lazy and stupid. Surely he couldn't have just been piecing together some witty commentary against the other guys obvious Bush insult. Gosh no! Now I must explain!"
    • RainNIU, on 03/10/2008, -1/+6Wow, we haven't heard that one before.
    • BoneStamp, on 03/10/2008, -2/+3I'm not American, but I'd love to know what country you're from so I could make a wild generalization about the people of your country. Obviously, your opinion is mostly based on popular international stereotypes rather than fact. Turns out only about 50% of Americans are fat and I would only say about 9% are lazy (unemployed), and very few are stupid... just the ones that vote.
      • weirdness67, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3Thank you, said it better than I could've.
      • jabberwolf, on 03/11/2008, -1/+1Only 50% are fat ?
        Good gawd, I'm American and have to assume someone so comfortable saying that must be a walking pig ! How embarrassing.
        • BoneStamp, on 03/11/2008, -0/+150% is "ONLY" when compared to his claim of 100%.
    • avgbody, on 03/10/2008, -0/+1Well, only a little over half. Face it only 51% voted for Bush, the rest can't stand him.
    • jabberwolf, on 03/11/2008, -2/+1He's not far from the truth.
      Unfortunately this is capitalism and the laws of supplies and demand.

      If someone else can do it better and cheaper, so be it, we lose ! If we want to win and compete, we need to be better. And we dont get better by bitching and complaining but investing more in education. And that doesnt mean spending more on administration but directly on the students. ***** TEACHER UNIONS FOR SCREWING OUR SCHOOLS... If you enact vouchers you'll see the laws of supply and demand... and you'll see better teachers, better salaries, and better students.
      I
      • jmcmullin, on 03/19/2008, -0/+0yeah..........i know you think our schools are failing, but they're not, it can't be helped that certain students accel at school and become successful and other students fail at school and maybe become successful. The school system is what it is....you get out of it what you put into it.. I would like a response and some facts about how our teacher unions are screwing our schools. I would also like examples of all the voucher school systems in existence that have improved education, offered education to 100% of the population, and deals with a student population as diverse as the population in the United States. We have tried free trade with no regulation and it led to a depression, if you want your child out of the public school system so desperately, ante up and pay for it, nothing is more American that that.
  • JosephTHogan, on 03/10/2008, -14/+7Outsourcing American jobs in favor of cheaper labor will generally increase the welfare of Americans on average. This is because cheaper labor means a cheaper product, allowing us to increase our consumption. This assumes that by outsourcing you are taking the productivity of the laborers into account. An American may be equally productive as 3 Mexicans but if the total wages of the 3 Mexicans together is lower than the wage of a single American, corporations make a good choice for themselves to outsource and the average American wins. This is economics.
    • SammyJr, on 03/10/2008, -1/+12Hard to consume when you have lost your job to cheap labor. If were to lose my job, I'm confident that my consumption would drop significantly, although Ivory Tower economists and Republicans might disagree.
    • nekama, on 03/10/2008, -2/+8It also means that the product's quality goes down the drain. It just means consuming more junk with decreasing quality.

      Buried for massive inaccuracy on your part.
    • mediaman2, on 03/10/2008, -5/+0Joseph: thank you for a pulse of intelligence.

      Sammy: your consumption may drop, but on net, the nation would benefit. You would have to argue that your personal gain is worth a net reduction in prosperity.

      nekama: A product made in a country other than the United States does not mean it is of inferior quality. See, for example, Japanese cars. Contrary to your racist, xenophobic beliefs, American products are not the highest quality in the world. The decision of the level of quality of product to produce, and where to produce that product, are two different decisions.
      • grovest4life, on 03/10/2008, -0/+6So your advocating the rich get richer and the poor an middle class get the shaft.
      • SammyJr, on 03/11/2008, -0/+5That's assuming that only a few people lose their jobs. Visit the Southeast and the former textile and furniture towns. Tell me that the sacrifice of those thousands of families has raised the prosperity of anyone more than a few executives.

        Things have only been decent because of an overabudence of credit. That's ending.
      • nekama, on 03/18/2008, -0/+1But when you see their manufacturing processes and their overall lack of attention to quality, it is explained clearly. You don't think that they'd put something more than a token effort towards quality?
    • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -1/+1As long as there is cheaper labour available the jobs will move from the West to developing countries.
  • digitallysick, on 03/10/2008, -5/+7I don't think anyone takes a company that uses tech support in india seriously. I think they are great people, and probably provide good support for most issues. But overall i think customers steer away from that when possible.
    • bjornski, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2No they don't. Not if they can save half a buck.
  • mknoll1, on 03/10/2008, -13/+6What I don't understand is how this is not an American job. THe worker earns wages in us dollars, lives and consumes inside the American economy, and ultimately ends up doing contract work for an American company.

    In addition companies have significant overhead related to bringing workers to the us so they would not be doing it unless they could find Americans to do the work. When you say they are undercutting American jobs what I hear is that American workers are demanding too much money for their work. There are plenty of Americans who are not currently working but when given the option between working for $7.00/hr and not working they opt to not work. The work still needs to be done and the only people willing to do it are from other countries. Americans need to buckle on their balls and either do these jobs for the wages offered, accept the inflation that increases in the wages would cause or embrace the immigrants who are willing to do these jobs.

    Remember, unless you are a Native American Indian you are the descendant of an immigrant in America.
    • drmangrum, on 03/10/2008, -3/+4You're an idiot.
      Did you miss that part about not hiring workers who are already here?
    • RogueMountie, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2That's all well and good, but... THEY TOOK ERR JOABS!
  • DryMaltExtract, on 03/10/2008, -4/+20That's capitalism and globalization! Enjoy it! It's your baby.

    I've worked on Indian written code, by companies asking for things to be fixed. It's like working on plumbing done by a five year old.
    • mediaman2, on 03/10/2008, -2/+6I'm a staunch fan of capitalism.
      But if those workers don't produce decent work, and the result is very expensive 'plumbing' repairs, they will likely not use those workers as much.
      I own a small-medium sized company in the US. I've considered outsourcing programming jobs to India, but after doing my due diligence I'm not convinced I have the requisite skill to find talent there, and I don't want to pay the incompetence tax caused by just choosing someone cheap. Instead I rely on referrals by respected tech people I know here, and I'm happy with the product.
    • ioncelovedjane, on 03/10/2008, -0/+6Yeah! I've had the same experience before.
      In my situation, apparently the punjabi IT guy got his job because of nepotism.
      Bastard!
    • BoneStamp, on 03/10/2008, -0/+7We call this Lindsay Lohan software. It looks pretty good on the outside, but it's mostly ***** up on the inside.
    • mahdaeng, on 03/10/2008, -1/+6I'd have to agree. On numerous occasions, I've been called in to fix code that Indians have botched. I guess I can't complain about it too much, because it means money in my pocket for my services, but it is ridiculous that these large companies really think they're saving money by outsourcing to Indians.
      • BoneStamp, on 03/11/2008, -1/+6The initial quote is a lot cheaper though... and that's what the finance department likes: low numbers that look good but eventually mean nothing.
        • bjornski, on 03/11/2008, -0/+5Oops. Accidentally dugg you down. Can someone toss him a +1 for me?
  • thepeacemaker, on 03/10/2008, -6/+11Coincidentally, Times of India published this article today...
    =============
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/36_of_scientist ...
    36% of scientists at Nasa are Indians: Govt survey
    11 Mar 2008, 0004 hrs IST

    NEW DELHI: If you thought that Global Indian Takeover was just a hollow cliche leaning on a few iconic successes like Pepsi's Indra Nooyi, Citibank's Vikram Pandit and steel world's Lakshmi Mittal, there is a slew of statistics now to give it solid ballast.
    The extent to which desis have made an impact in the US was reeled off in the Rajya Sabha — as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in Nasa, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians.

    If that's not proof enough of Indian scientific and corporate prowess, digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are Indians.
    And the House of Elders also heard some startling facts about a country that's still stuck with a Third World tag — 20% of gold in the world is used by Indians and nine out of 10 diamonds used in the world are made in India.

    The figures of Indian successes were given to the Rajya Sabha on Monday by D Purandeshwari, minister of state for HRD, in defence of the country's higher education system and the state of research. Purandeshwari said that although a lot needed to be done to encourage research, it was wrong to run down the country's higher education system since most Indians who excelled abroad were products of Indian institutions.

    He said there was no slackness in research and the number of PhD holders had gone up from 17,898 two years back to 18,730 last year. The minister also listed initiatives taken to encourage research, especially in science. Apart from creating 1,000 positions of research scientists at various levels, she said draft norms to create 10 networking centres in basic sciences in leading departments of universities were being prepared. It would help in promoting collaborative research and give access to advanced facilities. Also, all postgraduate programmes pertaining to science and technology would have an in-built component of research. The University Grants Commission is also identifying performing universities so that they can be given 50 fellowships to carry out research in basic sciences.
    • skram, on 03/10/2008, -3/+4Those numbers are not correct, just an exaggerated article that has been making rounds in the internet.
  • alpha754293, on 03/10/2008, -1/+4and for those who are about to ding my last comment, watch this: http://digg.com/comedy/Who_Really_Controls_America ...
  • okzilla, on 03/10/2008, -10/+6Globalization is not the enemy. It's inevitable. It may have short term negative impacts on certain demographics, but in the long term is good for everyone. Those who embrace it and adapt will be much better off than those who fight it. Gauranteed.
    • nekama, on 03/10/2008, -2/+3You know not the power of regulation, and the people who do not give up national sovereignty. It can be stopped without much consequence.
      • gregfadein, on 03/10/2008, -5/+1If by without much consequence, you mean vastly, unnecessarily destroying American wealth.

        Globalization is awesome. Mercantilism has failed. Open up any economic textbook written in the past 400 years.
    • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -0/+5What does the globalization have to offer the poor and lower middle class of the West?
      • andy314159pi, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2Globalization is failing to be beneficial to all sides because currency markets aren't functioning properly, for reasons that are very difficult to understand. You would know that currency markets were functioning properly if your money has approximately the same amount of buying power before and after its exchange.
      • tucsonwc, on 03/11/2008, -0/+3Certain demographics? Like the middle class?
        Who is going to pay for the goods and services if they don't have a wage to buy things?
        Or will we all just become prison guards and TSA workers?
        How does driving US wages into the stone age benefit anyone BUT the Ultra Rich?
        • LokitheComplex, on 03/11/2008, -0/+3Exactly they are the ones getting squeezed.
          While the Ultra rich always win.
  • fintheman, on 03/10/2008, -6/+6Want action? Make sure this is an issue brought up for elections. Make sure your representatives KNOW this is an issue. There are so many issues at hand that they try to appeal to, keeping India H1-B's out isn't all that hard of an issue to press. They are not American citizens and people will have those politicians head if they come out pro-h1B. There is not much of a positive stance they could take on it. So MAKE IT AN ISSUE AND LET IT BE KNOWN.

    Or just complain on digg about it...... I know I've done my part - have you?
  • sume, on 03/10/2008, -10/+17I find it amusing that one of the most liberal sites is full of these kinds of comments. First of all you can't just generalize and say Indians are bad coders or not, does anyone really think they're good at what they do because they're American? These is how the world works now, welcome to Globalization. I'm sure nobody minds buying stuff (almost everything now) at a fraction of the price that it would have cost if it was made here... or all the farmers in India committing suicide because our subsidized cotton is wiping their profit margin, they speak with an accent so it doesn't matter huh? If you are truly good at what you do, you may get laid off but you will be sure to find another job, so stop whining and get your act together, keeping yourselves valuable to your employers is the best job security .
    • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3So you should volunteer pay cuts to your boss who is getting visibly richer?
    • tucsonwc, on 03/11/2008, -1/+2You've got to be kidding. This is a race to the bottom in terms of salaries.
      You will never be valuable in that case, as they can ALWAYS pay someone pennies on the dollar for what you do. If it is not India doing this it will be China.
  • cha5e, on 03/10/2008, -9/+9> undermining the American economy by wiping out jobs.
    Um...no. There are more software job vacancies than the number of American workers available/qualified to fill them. My company alone has over 100 openings. So an American software company's options are a) let the jobs go unfilled and thus let productivity suffer, or b) hire H1B workers. Pretty easy decision. If we go back to the days of standing on the street corner with a sign that says "Will code for food", then the H1B quota will (hopefully) be lowered. But you can't logically gripe about "thousands of Indians coming over here to be IT guys, when there are thousands of American truck drivers out of work", because truck drivers can't code.
    As far as the people talking about the offshoring argument, that's not H1B, so let's stay on topic, k?
    • scubajim, on 03/10/2008, -2/+6I call BS. I am in the industry and whenever I look for a job it isn't easy. There are a lot of advertised jobs, but not a lot of jobs for non H1B holders. Why? A lot of companies treat H1B holders as indentured servants. They know they can't go to anther company easily and they dang;e the possibility of a green card over their heads.
      • MrSteamTank, on 03/10/2008, -1/+1If my company has many unfilled positions at 5 dollars an hour that require PhD education is that my fault or the American worker's fault? It's easy to find an excuse to hire cheap labor elsewhere by paying low salaries and requiring excessive standards of education.

        If not enough people are willing to work in a particular sector then you aren't paying well enough. If companies get to "decide" what they should pay their workers then we'd see every company in the country bringing in people from elsewhere where the standards and costs of living are lower.

      • cha5e, on 03/14/2008, -0/+1Not BS. Openings for Software Engineers, Sr. Software Engineers, and the types of other positions that go along w/ those. Development positions are in Indianapolis, Denver, and Prague. I just got hired earlier this year. Add me as a friend if you are interested - I could use the referral bonus :)
    • lukemann, on 03/10/2008, -1/+3Here's how it is supposed to work. There are many job openings and few applicants. This drives companies to pay more money for said applicants. More students enter into CS programs to get said money. This is pretty damn simple capitalism. Instead of doing this companies decided instead to change the rules of the game and import cheap labor from other countries. I'm fine if they want to offshore people. I'm not fine with importing people to drive down US wages. Not to mention the decimation of university IT departments across the US. This is not that hard of a concept to grasp.
      • cha5e, on 03/14/2008, -0/+1Hmm...that *is* a good point...
        • cha5e, on 03/14/2008, -0/+1Sorry to reply to myself, but: on the other hand, every system seeks equilibrium. If you kick a bucket of water, and take a picture immediately afterwards, you'll see waves, ripples, maybe droplets in the air. Wait an hour, and the water level will be flat. In a sense, the global IT industry is like that bucket just after it's been kicked. Higher wages here mean people from other places will come here, and I guess you're right, that will drive down salaries here. They'll also send money home, and go home later in their careers to start companies in their homeland, and that will function to drive up wages there. Sure, that's an over-simplified picture, because there are other factors at work such as gov't involvement, etc. But I think in 100 or 200 years, cost of living (in urban areas) will be fairly constant across much of the world. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Certainly won't be around in 200 years to find out. But I don't think it would be a bad thing overall if that happened.
    • scamper22, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3lol, I laugh at this for one reason...
      I'm employed, but looking.

      I send out resumes, no response. Methinks you get enough applications and qualified candidates.
      Check your resume filter settings.
      • cha5e, on 03/14/2008, -0/+1Well...I guess it depends on what area you're looking in. See my response to scubajim above if you're in (or willing to relocate to, probably on your own dime but I have no idea) any of the cities I listed. I'm not in HR so I'm not the one who controls the filters :) Regardless, good luck in your search!
  • pinchduck, on 03/10/2008, -7/+7Perhaps they are helping America's economy by lowering the cost associated with IT, allowing some business to focus more resources on R&D in its core area.
    • scamper22, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3lol,
      yeah, thats why Cisco is opening a 10 000 person R&D centre in India.
      have a stroll through silicon valley. It's full of asians (normally immigrants). All outsourcing is allowing these indians who would have migrated to the USA to stay in India and work.

      I used to work with many...who have now requested to go back to india.
    • tucsonwc, on 03/11/2008, -1/+3Buddy the R&D is being done in India and China. They are killing off US positions like crazy. It is as if a neutron bomb went off in SIlicon Valley and they had to import Indians to replace the dead US Citizens. This is all about cheap labor and destroying the middle class in the US.
      • edgedmurasame, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1R&D does not mean "how to steal from the Americans when they aren't looking" or "cooking the books Enron style" when their auditors arrive.
  • sqeezedinmiddle, on 03/10/2008, -9/+4i think we need to stop using the excuse of cheap labor and start competing in this global market. stop saying indians/chinese have no talent. maybe majority of them are mediocre but it seems that companies are doing ok with that. I have also seen the offsourcing has now matured than what it was 5 yrs ago. i work for an IT firm and a project we did [a major 90million plus] worked out well with majority of development in india. in fact the firm made pretty gud profits. it worked bcoz our managers and engineers were particular about code quality and test-cases. anyway, point of making is that this is a global economy. so stop using the execuse they aint good or they smell curry [they do btw].
  • Olfster, on 03/10/2008, -7/+5So here is a solution. Keep the current rate of 65,000 and raise the rate for U.S. educated foreigners. Here is a better idea. Remove the advanced degree requirement and only allow U.S. educated undergraduate and graduate degree foreigners for H1-B status. Then raise the H1-B numbers. The point is they have already made a life here and understand what a U.S. living wage is. Add to that a requirement that only U.S. based companies with more than 75% of their workforce located in the U.S. will be allowed to employ H1-B visa workers. What always makes me suspect, when the H1-B mantra is drummed, is that it usually happens when the U.S. economy starts to slow. What I can not argue against is that there are certain sectors that require increased specialized labor. But, since this is the case, make a private watch dog agency to assure that the company with the said requirement really has the requirement and only brings in the specialized person, under H1-B, for the required job. What is that I hear? You say your company doesn't need need H1-B visa holders now. I just don't trust anything anymore, companies or government. Remember there is always a profit motive, immediate or long term.
  • jetblackz4, on 03/10/2008, -0/+2Did they move Dell support to the US?
    • TonyLocNE, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2***** no... you have to have a serious problem and go through a series of internal levels before you finally get to an American tech.
  • digjam, on 03/10/2008, -3/+13Well no body complained when the manufacturing jobs were shipped to China/Indonesia/Taiwan etc..Literally everything bought in USA is made in Southeast asian countries... now its software shipping to India..tomorrow it will be something else... As long american companies want to make profits ... they will look for cheaper places to produce goods..Why do you think.. all the clothes you buy are made in India/Bangladesh/Pakistan etc..every electronic is made in Taiwan,china,etc..every furniture in China etc...
    THIS IS THE SAD TRUTH....DIGG ME DOWN..BUT SOONER OR LATER EVERY BODY WILL REALIZE THIS.And trust me..this will happen to every other country..India China etc...its not limited to USA only.
    • amrav, on 03/10/2008, -2/+1I second your opinion. It is already happening in Indian IT industry. The salaries and the wage growth are ridiculous there.
      Infosys, TATA are trying to set up shops in China, Malaysia etc.
    • ackermannc, on 03/10/2008, -0/+4Well, you weren't listening loud enough, especially to those in the Rust Belt.
    • gannina, on 03/11/2008, -0/+4These stupid corporations have yet to realize Americans need jobs to pay for their ***** products, and jobs that pay well.
  • Archer007, on 03/10/2008, -9/+4I love it when people who outsource jobs are characterized as "taking" jobs away from this country. Unskilled labor that can be done faster and cheaper will always go to those who demand the least money. Read up on outsourcing and its effects, and you'll actually see that it benefits the US, as we get all the high-technology jobs while manufacturing and agricultural jobs go overseas.
    • tucsonwc, on 03/11/2008, -0/+3NOT. The High Technology jobs are being outsourced as well. They are doing a mix of on-shore and off-shore with these firms as well as setting up "in country" development and design centers there. All aspects of technology are being sent abroad to chase the lowest labor costs. Those savings in turn are passed on to the executive staff as bonuses for keeping headcount reduced and not having to pay benefits on top of salary. Race to the bottom, the walmart way.
  • nekama, on 03/10/2008, -5/+8For those who defend the practice:

    The issue with them producing inferior quality work is indeed proven fact, even over the time it started to now. Explain the cheating on the part of companies had double standards based on the type of citizenship(H1B's would sail through with no competency checks, full citizens would have a Grigsby and Cohen style interrogation just to find what will kick them out).

    This is our nation(not for business to play with) and we do not need to give any bit of our sovereignty/independence to any other nation by this practice. It has resulted in lower quality work that citizens would have done right in the first place.
    • ackermannc, on 03/10/2008, -0/+6By watching the post being dugg down, I guess that there are people who don't mind defending such practices around here.
  • aserer511, on 03/10/2008, -9/+7is this meant to incite racism? indians are a smart, hardworking people. if they're qualified, bring 'em over. I wanna see more americans occupying the job force, but we're losing/have lost our edge in IT
    • Wacer, on 03/10/2008, -2/+7This doesn't have to do with race. It has to do with jobs, economics, money.
      • aserer511, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2i am aware; I was curious if the emphasis on who who was being granted those visas had teh intent of riling anyone up
    • tucsonwc, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2So Cognizant BILLS out at $29/hour for offshore senior software engineers. Are you going to compete with that, when you KNOW that worker is taking far less of that amount in actual salary?
      I think not. More and more work is being sent offshore. In China the rate is 5 to 1 in terms of what you can hire for 1 US engineer(5 engineers in Shanghai vs 1 US worker). YOU WILL NOT COMPETE with that rate. PERIOD.
  • RainNIU, on 03/10/2008, -2/+8Hey, I'm all for other countries raising their standards of living, but not at my own. Keep learning new skills and ensure that you're not just a stupid IT worker. There are a ton of programmers out there, but it's hard to find a good one. If you're a good one, then you won't have a problem finding a job.
    • LokitheComplex, on 03/10/2008, -0/+4So to hell with the average joe?
  • ametory, on 03/10/2008, -7/+7I cannot believe the BS going on in this board. If you are skilled, you WILL get a job AT THE RATE you expect. PERIOD. The BS about H1-b is that only 65,000 are given every year. Compare that to the number of Americans in the age group of 21-35 in IT. Are you telling me that only 65,000 IT jobs are there in US(I am guessing it would be in the tens of millions)? Are you kidding me?Have some perspective
    • tucsonwc, on 03/11/2008, -0/+3Go walk the halls at ebay or Oracle. Or ANY major high tech firm in the valley. All Indian all the time baby. You will NOT get a job at that rate or if you do, you will be in the minority. The majority of jobs are being outsourced + offshored.
  • fani, on 03/10/2008, -2/+5You know, one of these days, India will outsource jobs out.
    Lets see what happens then.
    Its a cycle anyways.
    • scamper22, on 03/10/2008, -1/+0It's happening now :P
      I used to work at a very high end company that opened a development centre in India.
      They could not find enough qualified workers.

      You know indians are surprisingly regular people. Most of India is also still rural. So ponder this.
      America = 300M
      Europe - 700M
      Both countries have a shortage of 'skilled labor' and thats with how much we spend on education...

      India = 1 Billion and is still largely a 3rd world country. India is going to do well, but it doesn't have 1 billion geniuses.
  • shdwsclan, on 03/10/2008, -8/+10If there was a shortage of skilled workers, then employers would be calling me.
    I'm an undergrad computer scientist student with a 3.4 gpa going to one of top 100 schools in the US.
    I have sent out 30 applications for summer internships. I have only gotten 3 replys.

    1 was from US cellular telling me that applications were over with. They also asked illegal questions in the application process which I HAD to answer since it was computerized. Finally, they probably ended up hiring some H1b student, since their recruiting table at the career fair was just a bunch of clucking Indians. I should have probably known I had no chance, even though my resume exceeds their qualification. My resume had everything they've asked for and more. Its cheaper to hire an H1b intern.

    Grainger actually interviewed me. I was probably the only white guy(non-indian) there. DUH.....same reason....turned down. I would have been too expensive.

    There is a third company thats supposed to get back to me in a few weeks. Thank god they dont hire H1Bs. Hopefully that goes through.

    Adding to the H1B scandal......most H1B indians haven't seen a computer, much less used one, as seen from the Disney hiring practices.

    Im very skilled, I know C++, Java, python, scheme, PHP, ASP, and ML. I have skills that most comp. sci undergrads dont have since I actually can fix and build not only computer but embedded electronics. Im pretty handy with a soldering iron, a jtagger, and an oscilloscope. Also, .NET is NOT a programming language, for all you recruiters, its a set of cheap microsoft libraries that any programmer without ANY .NET experience can learn in a week tops.

    If there was an ACTUAL shortage of skilled workers, then I would have an internship and not have my future stolen from by nothing than spineless SCABs. Big companies have no problem in h1b sponsorship and most of their US IT force is H1b Indian.

    Saving money ?
    Helping the consumer?
    Cheaper products ?

    You are wrong for the most part, JosephTHogan, outsourcing or H1bing does not increase the welfare of amerians on average. It increase the welfare of VERY rich Americans. Its the closest alternative to enslaving people. The average American is middle class. So he/she is either blue collar or white collar. If you outsource or h1b these jobs, then these Americans will not be able to afford your wares.

    These skilled American workers become disgruntled. Some of them, like me, are so skilled that we literally server-side/sql code into your page to try to get it to dump your database. We are the same skilled people that descramble cable and satellite signals because you have choosen to outsource. Directv completely secured their system.....hmm...why.....they stopped outsourcing their scrambling code. Why is software, music and movie piracy rampant. Because, we, skilled non-H1b potential workforce, developed software that allows us to do this because you choose not to hire us or pay us below our market wage or nil.

    The only safety corner for us are small companies that rarely hire or startups that almost always fail. If the startup succeeds, then they generally start to offshore/h1b their workforce.

    Finally, don't judge be name. If you want to, I suggest googling the name, and you will generally get country of origin by name.
    If you want a good, solid reliable IT/CS workforce, always hire from the programmer's belt. These include Germany(SAP), Switzerland, Poland(Comarch sa), Czech, and Russia. From those countries it radiates outwards. You get speed and prison-like ingenuity genetically encoded into the worker thanks to the cold war and other countless wars fought in the region. So if it says Shurka as the first name on the resume, its literal translation from Russian is Alexander, and they most like speak perfect English and prefer to be called Alex in the office. If the last name is for example, Kaiser or Adamowski then its clearly German and Polish.
    • Syric, on 03/10/2008, -3/+3*****.
    • noreaction, on 03/10/2008, -1/+4Well done, you can judge a book by its cover.
    • infin8, on 03/10/2008, -3/+6FYI, internships have nothing to do with H1B. do some research about H1B first before blaming it on others
    • pleasureismine, on 03/10/2008, -3/+7Maybe the reason you don't get a job if because your personality sucks.
    • bowe, on 03/11/2008, -1/+5First off, internships don't require a work VISA. Also there are only 60000 H1-Bs offered to undergrads per year, and there are only 20,000 H1-Bs offered to Masters students. I don't think that's enough to fill the entire workforce with Indians. It takes 12+ years to get 1 million foreign workers. A lot of Indian Americans go into programming so perhaps you're counting in some americans?
    • dtotheb, on 03/11/2008, -1/+4'bunch of clucking Indians'
      'most H1B indians haven't seen a computer,'

      With racist comments like that it's no surprise that no company wants you for an internship...
    • jmaxwell, on 05/06/2008, -0/+2you sir are an idiot.
      as others have mentioned, you don't need an H1B for an internship. either your skills suck or your school isn't as reputable as you make it out to be.

      why not join the rest of the diggers and also add that "indians are bad coders and their work needs to be redone by westerners". that should complete your racist, xenophobic rant.

      also since you claim to be CS, have you looked around in your class? tell me how many "westerners" do you see there? because if you look at the top 10 computer science schools, the majority of the students are indian.
  • infin8, on 03/10/2008, -3/+4How did the beneficiaries of H1-B ( 65000 of them for the fiscal year of 2008) suddenly get the blame for the "recession" and unemployment, i.e. the bad economy that the US is undergoing now? What happen to the housing market burst? what ever happen to the USD$12Billion/month cost in iraq ?? Don't some of you think that they play a bigger factor in the current US economy slump???
    Recipients of H1Bs didn't steal american's job; they went to the same school as americans and even paid higher tuitions! When the graduate, they get the same degrees as americans. They even go to the same interviews and answer the same questions that interviewers asked. So why do employers hire them instead? Maybe they have better work attitude and maybe, just maybe, they are better too! the H1B recipients, to get the job, went through the same process as any americans! fair and square!
    As far as pay, there are laws pertaining to it. Every H1-B recipients are to be paid the same amount as their american counterpart.There are prevailing wages, so these H1B workers, aren't paid rice and soy sauce or curry to do the job of an american engineer, programmer etc. They are paid exactly the same. So the perception that they are paid less, is wrong!
    And outsourcing has nothign to do with H1b!!!! if an american company hires somebody in India/china or wherever and have them based in any country other than the US, they don't get H1B!!!! Please get that clear!

    I would thought that diggers are better than blaming foreign internationals for ruining the US economy. How about having some cajones and take a look at yourself as to why you are jobless? Ask the american govt as to why less and less american are interested in math and science? As to why the number of american engineers graduating is decreasing?


    • Olfster, on 03/10/2008, -1/+1I agree with you for the most part. I disagree that all U.S. companies, particularly in this day and age, follow the rules.
  • grantk86, on 03/10/2008, -3/+4I'm from Canada, and I just got denied travel to the US yesterday on an emergency short term trip to help fix a multi-million dollar project that we are working on. I was told that I'm not allowed to be in a supervisory role in the US for any period of time without a full visa and was escorted back through to the Canadian side of Customs, even after explaining to my arrogant US Border Guard that I was not going to be working or getting paid in the US.
    This project employs about 400 Americans on a full time basis and pumps millions of dollars into a struggling US economy. My short trip alone would have meant a few thousand dollars of income for local restaurants, car rental agencies, and hotels. But America still chooses to turn away key investors at a time when they really can't afford to be doing so.
    Stop blaming other, more competitive countries for the loss of jobs and pending economic recession in the US; it's no ones fault but your own.
    • Olfster, on 03/10/2008, -4/+2Guess you should have developed it in India. If it is a client site in the U.S., well they get what they deserve for hiring a cheaper Canadian company whose management team is unable to legaly travel to the client site. Sounds more like a mismanagement issue than anything else.
      • grantk86, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2Unfortunately, I'm yet unsure of how to magically make metals appear in the earth wherever they would be most convenient to extract and sell.
    • noreaction, on 03/10/2008, -2/+1This article should come with a box of tissues, eh? moose.
      • grantk86, on 03/11/2008, -0/+1Yeah, and maybe a few extra boxes for the hundreds of Americans who would stand to lose their jobs if this project or other ones like it went under. No one likes to see things like that happen, but the only people who get screwed in that are the locals.
  • Syric, on 03/10/2008, -3/+2What's this I see? People on Digg complaining about capitalism? Ron Paul would not approve.
    • munjalm, on 03/10/2008, -1/+2Dude, now we have to pretend to love Obama. Ron Paul is so five minutes ago. We have to now care and pretend that we want change... not economic freedom!
  • tmspecial, on 03/10/2008, -4/+3Why do educated people always complain about the couple hundred thousand legal immigrants on H-1B visas when there are between 12 and 20 Million unskilled, illegal Mexicans in the country? I know why! The H-1B people take away their job and the illegal Mexicans take away some idiot’s job. Americans should deport the illegal Mexicans first and then talk about legal immigrants on visas such as the H-1B.
    • noreaction, on 03/10/2008, -0/+3Do you really want to wash dishes, pick fruit, and mow lawns for a living?
    • gannina, on 03/11/2008, -1/+2You don't need to do it for a living, it could be the equivalent of a high school job like Mcdonald's, except that it would pay more.
      • saisumimen, on 03/11/2008, -1/+1But it would also mean everything would go up in price, since you'd have to pay these non-illegals good wages, insurance, benefits, etc.

        You want your food and services cheap, but at the same time you don't want illegal immigrants working as modern-day slaves. You can't have it both ways.
  • burnblue, on 03/10/2008, -2/+3This is my beef with the thing. I believe the H1B program is necessary and I know many good people who have personally benefitted from it and I'll probably need it myself. The problem is this gross imbalance. All of the world's best and brightest do not come from India! Seriously, I know this
  • foolawrence, on 03/10/2008, -4/+2"I don't care if Americuh makes computer chips or potatuh chips." Or neither.
  • Radian, on 03/11/2008, -2/+5I'm an engineer, a small business owner, and a capitalist. Be even as a capitalist, I refuse to send any work offshore. I outsource to local engineering firms if necessary, keep the money in the U.S. I hire locally and compete by being better. The welfare of my fellow engineers is more important to me than squeezing out the last nickel.

    If you have to compete on price, it's only a matter of time before Tarbash or Wing replace you.

    If you're engineer in the U.S. or Europe, listen to me. Your head is on the chopping block, you just may not know it yet. Be aware & be prepared. Cost is king. We're entering a recession in the U.S. You will soon be an expense your company can't afford.

    There are a few rare employers who understand the value of outstanding engineering talent, but most CxOs only want to pad the bottom line at the expense of the long term.
  • enmattp, on 03/11/2008, -0/+2There are 3 aspects to the whole issue

    1. Time to acquire the needed talent
    2. Guarantee of minimum competence and wage regulation
    3. Cost effectiveness

    H1's weren't introduced for helping out Americans. It was to help the companies get access to talent that they wouldn't otherwise have. This is a serious disincentive to developing local standards of education.

    Companies sponsoring H1's also pay taxes. There are payroll taxes for H1 and green cards just as there are for citizens. So there's no advantage to hiring a H1 over a citizen. The only advantage is in wage regulation, as a H1 employee will be willing to work for the same wage or minimally increasing wage over a longer period of time. Hiring in tech is time bound and from my experience the emphasis is not on the best talent but on minimum competence to do the job. If a person has the skills and is a corporate yes-man it's even better. H1's aren't outsourcing. Outsourcing is letting jobs get out of the country, not bringing others in to work for you.

    So over a longer period of time, especially when there's a long waiting time to get permanent residency, a H1 employee would be willing to work for the same wage in order to get a permanent resident status. This is where the cost efficiencies build up. So I do believe the industry is in cahoots with the government over the delays in getting a change of status from H1 to a green card.

    And seriously, do you really think the engg/tech industry only generates 65k jobs a year? I beg to differ.

    In short, the coming recession is a great time to invest in education, developing local talent and probably developing the local manufacturing jobs industry. I wish the pols would get this into their heads instead of getting riled up over H1's.
  • unlawflcombatnt, on 03/11/2008, -2/+6It's all about suppressing American wages. Over the last year, Real Weekly Wages of Americans have declined -1.4%. This can be verified at the US Bureau of Labor Statistics site at:
    http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServle ...

    And there is NO shortage of American labor. In the last 12 months, the net number of new jobs created in the United States was only 5,000. Meanwhile, the number of working age Americans increased by 2,000,000. This can also be seen at the Bureau of Labor Statistics at:
    http://www.bls.gov/web/cpseea1.pdf

    There is no shortage of labor in the US. And there is no shortage of "skilled" labor either. What there is a shortage of, however, is American employers willing to pay American workers market-level wages. And as long as our government allows American employers to bypass the American labor market for workers, American wages will continue to stagnate, and even decline.

    And without increased wages, Americans cannot increase spending. Without increased consumer spending, there is little economic growth, since consumer spending is 72% of our GDP. With credit contracting at the same time, debt-financed spending can no longer offset the decline in wage-financed consumer spending.

    Now is the time to end the H1B visa program. And now is the time to put tariffs on imports, especially those from China using 25¢/hour Chinese labor.

    We need to protect middle class Americans and American workers, not just American investors and corporations.

    http://www.unlawflcombatnt.proboards84.com/
    • bobzibub, on 03/11/2008, -1/+1Dude. Real wages in the US have been the same since '73. Not an h1b thing.
      There is an increase of labour in the US, but how about skilled labour? If it is true that there are only 17K comp sci grads from phd granting institutions last year (up from 6k), then there is likely a discrepancy between the skilled and the slots which is filled by h1bs.
      If you went to work in IT in Togo, and found jobs for 560 clams, 670 clams and 320 clams per day, which would you choose? The whole idea that Americans believe people come to the US and are willing to work for a lesser amount is perplexing to me. If you have an engineering degree you know that 670>560>320, regardless of currency.
      Now you can put tariffs on imports from China, but they won't purchase as many of your T-bills, and they'll put tariffs on Fords. (I believe Ford makes more money outside the US now). You're not going to win that game. But by all means don't subsidize Wallmart or companies that outsource.
      Sure, I agree, "protect middle class Americans and American workers." but do it with subisized education, health care, public transportation and more holidays. Join the rest of the civilized world.

      The blame and ban all foreigners thing is tired.
  • pagalchu, on 03/11/2008, -3/+1Check this out...
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/36_of_scientist ...
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