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Girl, 17, killed in Iraq for loving a British soldier

independent.co.uk — A 17-year-old Iraqi girl was murdered by her father in an honour killing after falling in love with a British soldier she met while working on an aid programme in Basra, it has been claimed. Rand Abdel-Qader was stamped upon, suffocated and stabbed by her father, then given an unceremonious burial to emphasise her disgrace...

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  • Stevanoski, on 04/28/2008, -123/+37If this had been done in England the father would most certainly be set free the way things are going there.
    • Aitese, on 04/28/2008, -9/+61What the bloody hell are you talking about?
      • djm101, on 04/28/2008, -4/+8Anyone care to take a guess at what paper this dude's been reading?
        ANYONE?
        Clue: it spouts bile and hate and features frequently on digg
    • d3vmax, on 04/28/2008, -6/+24Seriously wtf?
    • ukblacknight, on 04/28/2008, -8/+45I'm assuming you're not from the UK with the way you said "going there". How can you possibly comment on what goes on here? Please highlight a case in the UK where an 'honour killing' has gone unpunished.
      • noclue, on 04/28/2008, -3/+17I am in no way defending Stevanoski, but the following question in your reply caught my attention: "How can you possibly comment on what goes on here?". I presume the same way people from countries outside the U.S. seem to be well-informed of our political and civil state. I totally agree with you, maybe your fellow countrymen should take your advice.
        • coyote1284, on 04/28/2008, -4/+8You, sir, have earned your internet for today.
    • lolinyerface, on 04/28/2008, -5/+13Stevanoski needs his web filter to stop switching middle east with England.
    • Tr33fiddy, on 04/28/2008, -3/+24I'm concerned about creeping Islamicisation here too but if that HAD happened in the UK, the father, any member of his family who kept it quiet and any so-called contacts in the government would very swiftly find themselves picking up the soap.
    • Fartbandit, on 04/28/2008, -1/+24The 2 cases of so called 'honour killings' ive heard about in the UK have resulted in swift justice for the perpetrators with each gaining a full life sentence... you claims have no basis in reality...
      • REBELinBLUE, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3Don't bring facts into this, they just confuse the matter ;)
    • buzbe, on 04/28/2008, -0/+8seriously - I'm cynical in the UK about us having parking and council signs in arabic (I mean its not right - you should speak english - if anything we should have signs in other european languages - or perhaps Polish) - but your statement holds no water. Are you a Daily Mail reader?p
      • ukblacknight, on 04/28/2008, -0/+3Wow, which council is that? I'm not saying you're wrong! Just wondering which council that is?
        • dlllb, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4My council, in Kingston-Upon-Hull, have arabic signs all over the council residential areas.
        • heidivodka, on 04/28/2008, -1/+6Manchester is just as bad, up 20 different languages are written in signs, yet English is no where to be seen
    • Spuy767, on 04/28/2008, -1/+7'Twould appear that he's trying to pun the increase in Muslim extremist tolerance in Britain over the last few years. While I agree, the government seems to be making a few too many concessions in that regard, you're still a ***** tool.
    • MisteryMeat, on 04/28/2008, -6/+2Just conservative radio scare tactics. Turn off the Michael Savage.
    • rkbabang, on 04/28/2008, -1/+12What are you talking about? This guy used a knife to stab her. You can't even own a knife in England any more without ending up in jail.
      • sv650touring, on 04/28/2008, -4/+5LOL, yeah they are anti-weaponry, that's for sure. I remember an article about a Scottish woman who was shot in the pinky finger with a BB gun. It didn't even break the skin mind you, but most of the dozens of comments were about how they now need to make airguns illegal LIEK RIGHT NOWWWW!!!111!!.
        • dlllb, on 04/28/2008, -3/+4When 10 year girls are being shot with them I would agree; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/south_y ...
          • sv650touring, on 04/29/2008, -0/+3The best you could do is a *suspected* pellet gun shooting in the leg of a 10 year old? By the time I was that old, I had been shot many times in bb gun wars with my friends. It never actually broke the skin (common trend with airguns). The article wouldn't have said "suspected airgun" if it had broken the skin, since the recovered pellet would have proven an airgun was the source of her "injury".

            This is just fear mongering.

            Fact: many, many more children are *actually harmed* by ordinary household items.
          • rkbabang, on 04/29/2008, -0/+3Oh please one girl might have gotten a boo-boo so you want to ban something. How about banning video game controllers I can show you a story that at least one little girl has died because of those evil objects. Stop the madness! How many more must die!!!!

            http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/08/toddler.beater ...
    • northernmunky, on 04/28/2008, -8/+2Stevanoski, you really need to stop watching American propaganda
      • themizer, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2As an American I can say that I have heard no propaganda to this or any other negative effect regarding the UK. If I had I would not believe it. I do know you folks have more issues with fanatical muslims in your Country than we currently have...but that is subject to change as are most things.
    • airquotes, on 04/28/2008, -7/+4I've read three of your comments and decided you are the most uninformed idiot I could ever imagine, either it's a mildly funny joke or youre serious and are stupider than dirt. You're so dumb I want to fight you.
      • coyote1284, on 04/28/2008, -1/+5Don't fight him, retards have uncanny strength!
        • dlllb, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2"You're so dumb I want to fight you."
          Ahahahah, now thats irony!
    • Karna101, on 04/28/2008, -8/+6Islam, coming to a society near you.

      This is Shariah Islamic law libs. This IS Islam. Still want to consider a religion of peace.
    • zspitfire04, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1You sir are an idiot. And Im an American too...
    • metric7, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1Honor killings will be the norm in Londonstan
  • MississippiLife, on 04/28/2008, -21/+307FTA - "Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws. The father has very good contacts inside the Basra government and it wasn't hard for him to be released and what he did to be forgotten."

    Is this Muslim justice?
    • cageybee, on 04/28/2008, -107/+15so, if chinese somehow took lots of drugs and lost their mind and invaded US and took control of US via force, and if your daughter would fall in love with soldiers that kill american citizens, what would you think of your daughter?? i am sure you would not go to the extreme and kill her like they do in the middle-east, but you would probably be very upset with your daughter. now, the way they live their lives is how it is. we do not have a right to interfere in their affairs.
      • JigoroKano, on 04/28/2008, -12/+149***** your moral relativism. Murder is murder.
        • ElAssoWipo, on 04/28/2008, -42/+11So the soldier was therefore a murderer, right? They all are, right?
          • JigoroKano, on 04/28/2008, -5/+21Did he take lives while helping deliver relief to displaced families?
          • ElAssoWipo, on 04/28/2008, -29/+9No, he's part of an hostile invasion that left at least 600,000 Iraqis dead, destroyed their entire infrastructure, opened the door to terrorists and allowed the return of the very same Islamic fundamentalism you are supposedly fighting.

            If I shoot you in the foot then take you to the hospital, I'm not a good samaritan. I'm a psychopath.
          • govsucks, on 04/28/2008, -3/+16He calls himself ass wipe for a damn good reason folks.
          • JigoroKano, on 04/28/2008, -6/+7That same kind of thinking (grouping people by sin) is how Bush lead the West into Iraq in the first place.
            You haven't learned anything.
          • ElAssoWipo, on 04/28/2008, -11/+7No, Bush led America to war with lies of weapons of mass destruction, false evidence, no bid defense contracts and a ***** load of lies.

            I thought murder was murder? Aren't you suppose to defend your own argument? It's not my fault if it's stupid, I just went along with it.
          • JigoroKano, on 04/28/2008, -2/+14Murder is murder and I haven't said anything differently. Your childish bickering is a red herring. War contains an ethical continuum of murder, manslaughter, and defense. This is irrelevant.

            Your categorization of the soldier as a murderer is no different from those who categorize Moslems as murderers. You are just as stupid and just as incapable distinguishing right from wrong in the context of your biases. An innocent life was taken, and you can do nothing but attempt to spin the situation to further your politics.
          • ElAssoWipo, on 04/28/2008, -12/+3"An innocent life was taken, and you can do nothing but attempt to spin the situation to further your politics."
            I haven't made an argument, I've asked a question.

            "Murder is murder"
            "War contains an ethical continuum of murder, manslaughter, and defense. This is irrelevant."
            "Your categorization of the soldier as a murderer is no different from those who categorize Moslems as murderers."

            The difference would be the purpose of a soldier vs citizens that practice a religion.

            "That same kind of thinking (grouping people by sin) is how Bush lead the West into Iraq in the first place."
            "***** your moral relativism."

            I don't even have an agenda here. I just like to argue with idiots for laughs.
          • coyote1284, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2I'm tickled by Jigoro's icon, especially in this thread.
          • danconia, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2You were close to having a good point but certainly expressed the idea very poorly. Soldiers DO bear some responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died in the conflict but each soldier's complicity varies and in general most soldiers didn't know that their government would be screwing them and the Iraqi people over. Either way the signing of a military contract is not something to be taken lightly... you're basically putting aside your ethical platform and agreeing to use someone else's (the US Government's).
        • NoCt1, on 04/28/2008, -4/+23@elassowipo

          A soldier shooting another soldier is one thing.. Soldier shooting a civillian is a different story. Both are considered murder but under different guidlines. This was not an act of war. nor was this in im assuming self defense. This was all about a man with an pride that he didnt care whether or not it was his daughter or someone else. That is also murder. The difference. It was a father killing his daughter because she loved an invading soldier. It is not his choice to be there he is following orders.. Im sure if they all could be asked they wouldnt want to shoot anyone. The murder was wrong.. End of Story.
          • ElAssoWipo, on 04/28/2008, -11/+9I'm not the one who made the argument, I just asked a question that follows Jigoro's logic.
        • Sendai129, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Now I'm not defending cageybee in ANY way but I'm going to present you a different scenario. Somebody comes up to you on the street and tries to kill you. In the ensuing struggle you wind up killing him in defense. Now let's say this is a cut and dry self defense, no hidden surprises so to say. You've technically murdered another human being however because of the situation you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that you should get to walk the streets a free man.
          Things aren't always so cut and dry, you do have to look at the situation. Now in the situation of the poor 17 year old girl the father is 100% in the wrong no question about it. But you do have to be careful of generalizing things such as saying that all murder is murder and therefore implied to be always wrong.
      • Viend, on 04/28/2008, -12/+12No it's Arab justice.

        Well the Indians do it too, but to back up my point that it's cultural, as many Hindu Indians do it as Muslim Indians. Probably more, comparing their populations.
        • sampanc, on 04/28/2008, -5/+7What's ur point? Since it's a cultural thing among cultures that are other than islamic, it makes it ok?
          • ElAssoWipo, on 04/28/2008, -6/+10It makes it not Islam.
          • thebaron2, on 04/28/2008, -2/+12It's barbaric - end of story.
          • RobotCitizen, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1Culture creates religion creates culture. Trying to neatly seperate the two is a useless rationalization, and a poor defense against such horrific behavior.
        • hmunkey, on 04/28/2008, -3/+5Indians do it? Since when? That kind of stuff hasn't happened for 100s of years.One of Hinduism's main guidelines is "ahimsa," or nonviolence.
        • danconia, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2Don't forget the place with the most suicide bombings is actually Sri Lanka. Of course not saying it's okay (it obviously is not okay to bomb innocent civilians) but I always thought it was an interesting side note that the area with most suicide bombings is not a Muslim area.
      • sampanc, on 04/28/2008, -0/+20Murder is wrong regardless of cultural norms. There are still cultures in Inidia that promote female infanticide, using your logic, since that's how things are over there it's normal and we should accept it. Murder is universally understood to be ethically wrong, it's the reason behind the act that differ and result in the relativist point of view that you take. Killing in the case of self-defense for example may be necessary but Honour killings are not necessary as there are many alternatives, thus honour killings are wrong regardless of culture.
        • airquotes, on 04/28/2008, -4/+9True.. I think most Sharia law relating to women and "honor" all can be traced back to some freudian small penis issues.. I guess arabs tend to have small ineffectual penises.
          • slotimus, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1Where does the Qur'an mention any of this? You don't know what you are talking about.
          • MisterFreeze, on 05/01/2008, -1/+2So what does the size of the U.S. military say abour America?
      • jgzman, on 04/28/2008, -2/+8I think that's the point. I don't condemn him for his anger, just his murder.

        I swear, I'm gonna have to stop reading digg. The intentional idiocy brigade is going to kill me.
        • derek20cali, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1I am now filtering all political stories on digg. It makes it more like the good old days.
      • caramba420, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3Everyone has the right to be alive. There is absolutely no justification for this.
        • danconia, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1The best way I've heard it put is that every person has ownership of their own body. It is their property whether they like it or not. There are actually quite a few simple logical proofs for this too which gives it a lot more legitimacy than most people's criteria for labeling something as *wrong*, which is usually something flimsy like "well it just doesn't seem right", etc.
          Yay for property rights!
      • utahnkid, on 04/28/2008, -0/+10Muslim men are so ignorant and insecure they actually believe that controlling "their women" is some kind of right. Good luck with the impending revolt when your people see how backwards you live compared to the rest of the world.
        • repmekevets, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3impending revolt? not likely. their culture has remained largely unchanged for over 1000 years.
          unfortunately, it's going to be slow, slooow change one inch at a time.
        • danconia, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1Just one more reason I'm an atheist. Main reason of course though is because there is no God but it's always good to have some extra reasons just for fun.
      • BabyWookie, on 04/28/2008, -4/+6This is actually not a bad example. During WW2, in the occupied France, the resistance have killed French women for sleeping with German soldiers. According to the muslim-hating, right-wing faggots who are a digging you down, that must have been "Christian justice."
        • 180andback, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1Dugg for AIR flag.
        • danconia, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Ah very good point. I'm not sure how many were actually killed per se but I know a lot were publicly humiliated and probably beaten, etc.
        • metric7, on 04/29/2008, -0/+2The resistance killed NOT her own father, quit apologizing for those scumbags.
    • sublingo, on 04/28/2008, -49/+10No it's not Muslim justice. Stop putting an entire creed on trial every time someone commits a crime.
      • willywong, on 04/28/2008, -7/+52Stop claiming things aren't a part of a religion when you don't like them.
        • slotimus, on 04/29/2008, -2/+1You feel like quoting the part of the Qur'an where it says to do this? You honestly don't have to because 90% of Americans believe the same thing you just said, even though it is not factual.
          • willywong, on 05/01/2008, -0/+1Religion is more than just words in a book.
      • punkcat, on 04/28/2008, -3/+29his question is justified by the quote "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws."
        elaborate on the subject if you can, and stop throwing out some childish i am better than you taunt.
        • sublingo, on 04/28/2008, -11/+3Guess what, there are bad people in all creeds that inject their own evil into whatever they 'are'. Revelation!
      • govsucks, on 04/28/2008, -1/+28Yeah, just because they call themselves Muslims doesn't mean you can label them Muslim.
        /sarcasm
      • Mothrog, on 04/28/2008, -2/+20You know the religious laws referred to that got this guy off of murder? Those are Islamic laws. So yeah, it does kinda tarnish Islam when Islam is used to justify murder.
        • sublingo, on 04/28/2008, -6/+1Those are laws that someone claims to be Islamic. There's a HUGE difference.
          • RobotCitizen, on 04/29/2008, -1/+2This is a ridiculous defense. It is logic that eats itself. It lets you retroactively redefine your way out of any corner, ad infinitum. Every time a Muslim behaves badly, even when he cites his religion as his motivation, you conveniently redraw the boundaries of the group so that that person is excluded. This can continue until not a single human on earth is a "real Muslim". And if no one is a "real Muslim" then can Islam be said to exist at all?
      • Trichomonas, on 04/28/2008, -3/+4Why is he being buried? He's just saying that you can't label the whole community for what one (I repeat ONE) person did.

        Also, a Muslim in Iraq will probably have different personal beliefs than one in a more stable part of the world (e.g. US).
        • Harabeck, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2Its not at all an isolated case. This is perhaps an extreme one, but "honor killings" appear in headlines all the time.
          • Trichomonas, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2I'm not even saying it's an isolated case. I'm just saying you have to differentiate between extremists and Muslims. Because they are not equal and any sane minded Muslim in the West condones this just as much (if not more because of the bad PR that comes with this sort of stuff) as any American or European. Muslims hate these extremists too. Ask any of you friends if they're Muslim.
        • hmunkey, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Then which one is the real adherent to Islam? If it's the American variety, I'm all for Muslims. If it's the Middle Eastern variety, ***** them.
      • dafunkmonster, on 04/29/2008, -0/+1Correction: 47 crimes, all declared on the same basis.
    • Eivo, on 04/28/2008, -15/+27WTF is "Muslim Justice"?
    • Hootiehoo, on 04/28/2008, -46/+14***** sand niggers are way to dumb to let live
      • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -7/+14Wow you're just the cutest little racist, aren't you?
      • Akufen, on 04/28/2008, -3/+13Yeah Hootiehoo, you're obviously here to catapult us into the next century with your line of thinking.
      • repmekevets, on 04/28/2008, -3/+4people like you are just as bad the father in this story.
        • metric7, on 04/29/2008, -0/+3Really? An insensitive remark is the same as killing your child? You are quite ***** up.
          • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1It was the father's hate of an American that lead to his killing his own daughter. Bigotry breed hate, which breeds violence.
    • theoiproject, on 04/28/2008, -2/+62all this was on a whim too. They met in March only innocently saw one another and when the father only heard of their "friendship" did he proceed in the act. Suicide bombers, innocent victims, 9/11, the vicious attacks around the world, the hippocracy to hate western ways but eagerness to keep up with American Idol....yes i put them on trial. Should we be in the middle east? We may not change the world and it may not be one persons responsibility but awareness needs to be brought to the attention of the world on the hideous treatment of individuals in the name of religion. That wasn't religious that was emotion. Jealousy, anger, humiliation, revenge.
      • danconia, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1If only our leaders were able to sit down and use their heads to make sure they actually know how to positively influence a culture rather than shooting first and asking questions later. Here's to hoping archaic dogma like honor killings get phased off of this planet as soon as possible!
        • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1Shoot first? Do you think terrorist attacks on the US started on 9/11? Check out the list of attacks on the US from Middle Eastern countries. We put up with attacks for decades.
          • danconia, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1Was that before or after we overthrew a democratically-elected leader in Iran during the 1950's?
    • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -2/+56Not sure it's "muslim justice", but sharia law dictates that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim man. (Of course a muslim man can marry a non-muslim woman, islamic equality for you). These laws promote islamic expansion via demographics.
      • drlha, on 04/28/2008, -14/+8There's plenty of religions that require a fiance to convert if they want to get married into that religion. Islam is hardly alone here. Certainly that rule cannot be used to justify killing her, after all the soldier could have converted to Islam.
        • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -2/+14Here's a choice quote for you apologetic way of thinking:

          “Wherever you see a man who gives someone else's corruption, someone else's prejudice as a reason for not taking action himself, you see a cog in The Machine that governs us.” - John Jay Chapman
        • moonbastic, on 04/28/2008, -2/+12Actually, I can't think of one religion outside of Islam which requires conversion before marriage is recognized. Not Christianity (Protestant, Catholic, or otherwise). Not Mormonism. Not even Scientology.
          • SpaceMonkeyZero, on 04/28/2008, -0/+5Well, scientology would force you to get a divorce if your non-scientology spouse refuses to convert.
          • vikki77, on 04/28/2008, -3/+5I'm not Jewish, but I think both people have to be Jewish in order to marry in an Orthodox church.
          • slotimus, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1It doesn't require conversion. Read a book before you post ignorant nonsensical information like this.
        • CRCulver, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3The Orthodox Church will not marry two people who are not both baptized (in a denomination, other than the Mormons, that baptizes in the name of the Trinity).
        • corpski, on 04/28/2008, -3/+1Well, my wife's future sister-in-law just got baptized into the Catholic faith today. She was a Christian, my brother-in-law is a Catholic. One or the other has to convert, at least where I am. Not that it matters to me much. I'm a self-professed non-practicing Catholic / agnostic.
          • screensnot, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1Catholic is a subset of Christian.
      • slotimus, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3Its not an executable offense.
    • OMGIAMTHEMAN, on 04/28/2008, -20/+7no this is not a part of islam. honor killings are a cultural aberration and strictly against very specific teachings of Islam. First of all, the punishment for "loving a british man" is not death." second of all, nobody can carry out their own vigilante justice the way this guy did. He is a murderer in the eyes of Islam as well as anywhere else.
      • Largent, on 04/28/2008, -1/+14Yeah I'm sure he will be brought to justice for his actions.... NOT
      • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -2/+20Well, it is in fact illegal under sharia law for a muslim woman have romantic relations with a non-muslim man.

        Plus, if this did reach a court of law where sharia was practised, the mother would require 4 times the number of male backs of that of the father, because the infallible law of god dictates that a women's vote is worth 1/4 that of a man's.
        • OMGIAMTHEMAN, on 04/28/2008, -14/+1why are ignorant factually incorrect comments like this being dug up?
        • thebaron2, on 04/28/2008, -0/+6Go ahead and correct them if there's a problem ,OMGIAMTHEMAN.
          • OMGIAMTHEMAN, on 04/28/2008, -3/+3"Well, it is in fact illegal under sharia law for a muslim woman have romantic relations with a non-muslim man."

            a more unbiased wording would be "it is illegal under sharia law for a muslim woman or man to have a romantic relationship outside of marriage."

            "Plus, if this did reach a court of law where sharia was practised, the mother would require 4 times the number of male backs of that of the father, because the infallible law of god dictates that a women's vote is worth 1/4 that of a man's."

            a woman's vote is 1/4 of a man's? wrong wrong. first of all, we're talking about witnessing, not voting. Second, where are you getting 1/4 from. rules of evidence are at the discretion of the judge. there's no rule that says a witness to fornication must be a male. so it's factually incorrect that a woman's testimony is 1/4 of a man.

            there, digg me down still haters. you are buying all your media's lies built up to support a war against muslims.
        • slotimus, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Its not an executable offense.
    • charlietuna, on 04/28/2008, -5/+19The military should move her body to a beautiful grave, better than everyone else. ***** those re-turds. (and I rarely get so ***** off)
      • NikoKun, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1You should try getting this ***** off, more often. It's a great way to both relieve stress, and alert the international community to how horrible and wrong this stuff is. If people don't get outraged over this, things will never change.
        • kittnerrules, on 04/28/2008, -2/+1Raging on digg won't do a damned thing.
    • warriorscot, on 04/28/2008, -8/+3More correctly it is middle eastern/central Asian justice, honour killings are something that is part of the cultures in a rather large region it has been assimilated into Muslim culture but it isn't exclusive to it.
    • mtwoar, on 04/28/2008, -2/+67When I was in Baghdad (May 03 - May 04) we had quite a few of these so called "honor killings". One in particular that stands out was when my squad was on patrol in the Hy Alamil district and a middle aged man was parading around one of the markets waving a severed hand. This was the hand of his daughter who he and his wife cut off, after they beat/stabbed her to death. He told us that his daughter had slept with a man outside of marriage, so they killed her. We took him to the local Iraqi Police station where he stayed for a long time. It was terribly looked down on, but at the same time none of the Iraqi Police were surprised. Go figure. Anyway just thought I would share my experience. :) Cheers.
      • charlietuna, on 04/28/2008, -0/+7I think that pretty much defines going *****. I wonder if he was jailed for the killing, or defiling the body by waving the head around at the market.
    • Frnnkdlxx, on 04/28/2008, -2/+3***** the Police?
    • TI3GIB, on 04/28/2008, -3/+2It's not.

      But I can't wait to see your response to the "Girl, 17, killed in Iraq BY a British soldier".
    • purzzzell, on 04/28/2008, -1/+8In Muslim society, a woman is a second class citizen - she doesn't have the priviledge of "justice", she's viewed as subservient to her father or husband.
      • DrPhlux, on 04/29/2008, -0/+1No, In Muslim society, women are under gravel in the class structure.

        The structure: Men, animals, rock, gravel and then women.
    • jimjoke, on 04/28/2008, -12/+10I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

      ***** Muslims
      • slotimus, on 04/28/2008, -5/+5I've said it before and I'll say it again... People like you are the reason we are still at war in Iraq. Get over your prejudices and shut up and eat your TV dinner.
      • JusticeFriend, on 04/28/2008, -3/+1Go to see Fox News...
    • strifeprime, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3It's not what you know, it's who you know.

      People get away with murder everyday in most countries because they know the right people.
    • TripleAStacked, on 04/28/2008, -2/+2Not Muslim Justice, its called Sharia law and most of us have moved away from it. Some people are just stuck in the past!
    • slotimus, on 04/28/2008, -3/+1Muslim justice would be this man being brought to a sharia court system ... But guess what, the 'Coalition' overthrew all those. Whoops!
    • cheesypasta, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1It boggles my mind that common folk in a Muslim society can kill another human being, their own child no less, without a second thought. The only way to understand it is to have been born in that society. Their religion is everything to them.
      • slotimus, on 04/29/2008, -2/+1"common folk in a Muslim society"
        "Their religion is everything to them."

        Do you really believe what you say? Have you not been reading the Muslim input here? Our religion doesn't say to do any of these things.
        • cheesypasta, on 04/29/2008, -0/+1I'm sorry if I offended you. I've only heard of honor killings among Muslim societies and I thought the practice was associated with the religion.
          • slotimus, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1There are Muslim societies all over the world that condemn so called 'honor killings'. Its not a Muslim practice. Its a cultural practice that has nothing to do with Islam.
    • TriTech, on 04/29/2008, -0/+3Muslim Justice is an oxymoron.
  • yongke, on 04/28/2008, -82/+7Wouldn't that be like, child sex? Or maybe soldiers in Iraq are immune to such things?
    • madwaxer, on 04/28/2008, -23/+5might not be seen that way. also in other countries your status in life is not tied to your physical age.
      rather to milestones you've reached in learning and experience.
      kids can be in school by the time they are 3yrs old. and they learn a lot more than how to play about.
      by 5 i was already doing my 12x tables.
    • m8ymerc1, on 04/28/2008, -7/+81No, this would not be like child sex. It states they were friends and that someone "accused" her of having an affair. we will never know the truth because her peaceful religious father and brothers killed her for peace sake.
    • wrs123, on 04/28/2008, -4/+38"and the pair, whose relationship was innocent, only ever met while working at the aid station"

      Buried for not reading the article
    • airforceteacher, on 04/28/2008, -2/+4Age of consent in England is also lower than here - or at least it was 14 years ago when I lived there.
    • Fartbandit, on 04/28/2008, -1/+10Age on consent in the UK is 16 and has not changed.
    • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -1/+9first... love =/= sex
      second.. 17 typically isn't a 'child' in most cultures.
      Especially considering that not very long ago the average lifespan was a good 30 or more years shorter than it is now.
      • Lyk4n, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2Their Prophet married a 6 year old and consummated the marriage when she was 9.
    • hmunkey, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2Premeditated murder > Consensual love with a 17 year old.
    • tech42er, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1No. Even in the United States, one of the most Puritan of the developed nations (and thus the nation with the highest AOC, drinking laws, etc.) the age of consent is 16 in most places. So, no it's not "child sex".
  • m8ymerc1, on 04/28/2008, -28/+151It goes to show you that you don't have to be an extremest to be a part of the religion of peace.
    • HardChargerxxx, on 04/28/2008, -6/+7Good point.
    • metamorfoza, on 04/28/2008, -20/+26While I understand your point...this has nothing to do with Islam (relligion) imho, but rather it is more cultural thing. Middlle east is still kinda shame/honour society govern by the tribal rules. Islam is just used as excuse for this kind of things. I lived in south-eastern europe (non islam countiry) where similar rules apply. You bring [great] shame /dishounour to your family - you die. Simple as that. Hell, the Italian mafia is build on these prinicpels , you can't betray your family.
      now, of course that to us this is kinda stupid (to be killed beacuse you fall in love iperson of other relligion/nationality/family) but belive me...is not Islam that has monoply on this rule.

      • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -7/+29It has everything to do with islam, a muslim women cannot marry a non-muslim man under the infallible law of god (islamic sharia law) - FACT
        • johnnysaucepn, on 04/28/2008, -11/+5I'm sorry - I didn't read the imaginary part of the article where they got married.
          • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -2/+16Oh yes you're right, as long as they're not married it's totally acceptable under islamic law.

            Fact is the laws are sweeping and cover any interaction of any kind under romantic circumstances.

            Go ahead and prove me wrong.
          • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4@NonRightyDigger:
            Firstly, I don’t know where I disclosed my politic persuasion, but I’d put myself to be just left of centre. I’m not against gays, I'm atheist and secularist; but I do have certain stances that might be considered “right wing”, i.e. tougher immigration laws in UK & US, less political correctness, more laws protecting Western culture instead the current political correct stance of having immigrant cultures trumping native ways of life.

            I also believe Western culture to be superior to that of Islamic nations.

            Remember comrade, appeasement will get you nowhere and to say the right thing is never wrong.

            If you can provide convincing rebuttals against my statements I’ll be sure to admit I’m wrong.
          • tech42er, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1@BrokenDrum
            You're wasting your time. This guy is nothing more than a two-bit troll.
        • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -0/+7Yeah I can see your point.
          The culture that punishes unwed females for publicly conversing with males CLEARLY would have been OK with it once she explained it was just a simple little crush.
        • SaifBlade, on 04/28/2008, -6/+1But Islam does not tell people they can kill them for that
          • eviltandem, on 04/28/2008, -3/+10They think it does. So what's the difference?

            My favorite quote regarding religion: "Those who can convince you of absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

            Once I convince you to enter into this whole made up system, I can start warping your values. I can take something relatively benign, like islam, judism, or christianity, and convince you to commit atrocities in it's name. Things you would never do normally.

            All because we respect your right to believe in fairies and goblins. If you don't wrap it in religion, like the Nazis, the world unites and puts you down. If you say "it's my religion", we can't bend over backwards apologizing for it fast enough.
        • metamorfoza, on 04/28/2008, -10/+1Well buddy in christianity is the same (you can't marry non-chirstian/baptized person). I said, its not Islam only that has monoply on this rule...you arrogant prick. Killing a person beacuse of that has nothing to do with religion (both islam or christian)
          • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2I do believe you're wrong.
            Christianity is the all encompassing name for all religions that believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god.
            I know many Christians that have married outside of their religion. You might be thinking Catholic maybe?
            I dated a girl who's family was VERY Catholic and they absolutely hated me for the fact that I was Lutheran.
          • onefatfrog, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4Wrong, in Christianity (Protestant, at least, not sure about Catholic) it is not advised to marry a non-believer, but it isn't forbidden.
        • barakatx2, on 04/28/2008, -2/+2the reason a muslim woman cant marry a non-muslim man is because usually the children follow their fathers religion and a muslim man cant marry a non-muslim woman if she is intending to have the kids be non-muslim. plus a muslim man cant marry a non-muslim woman if she is not a christian or jew or if she is not a virgin. some of you think everything is so black and white it makes me sick. muslims studying islam all their life and some of you assholes think you are experts because you hear propaganda in the media. not even a muslim can read the quran and understand it on their own without someone teaching them the interpretation and meaning, because the quran is not simple arabic by far. so all of you assholes that think you know ***** about islam need to be open-minded or mind your own business if you cant be fair.
          • 140Suffolk, on 04/29/2008, -1/+3So you're saying that it's okay to kill the woman so the kids won't be brought up as infidels? Is that what you're saying?
          • Zecchetti, on 04/29/2008, -2/+1140Suffolk,

            No it is not okay to kill the woman. He didn't say that at all. You are just a bigotted fool filled with hatred and jealousy.
      • cyberprunes, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2To say it has "nothing" to do with religion is a bit naive. I think it has something to do with religion. People of faith derive their moral values from religion. If the act of murdering your child can be justified, surely it is through the lens of religion!
      • TsuruchiBrian, on 04/28/2008, -2/+3In the same way that Mickey Mouse has nothing to do with Disneyland.
      • Icouldbe, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Islam is the context in which those rules are created.
    • ElektraAssassin, on 04/28/2008, -16/+3You're confusing culture and politics with faith and religion. Sadly this happens quite a bit, most markedly when the words "Islam" or "Muslim" are involved with anything remotely illegal, immoral or just plain different to what one culture (most usually western) accepts as normal. This killing had nothing to do with faith and everything to do with culture.
      • BrokenDrum, on 04/28/2008, -1/+13No, it's islamic sharia law that dictates this, non-muslim women are forbidden for any romantic interaction with non-muslim men.
      • Fartbandit, on 04/28/2008, -1/+8your ignorance astounds...
        • airquotes, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1"your ignorance astounds..."
          -fartbandit
      • Gutterpunk, on 04/28/2008, -1/+12So let me ask you, an Arab Christians (or in the $oC or whatever religion other than Muslim) would still have killed her?
      • tech42er, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2You're trying to excuse this because it's not our culture and we don't understand? *****, you cannot use "cultural differences" and "moral relativism" to explain away murder!
    • Dunhamzzz, on 04/28/2008, -2/+8"You don't have to be an extremist to work here, but it helps"
    • modex, on 04/28/2008, -4/+11dugg for "religion of peace" reference
    • N256, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1How isn't this being an extremist?
      • TsuruchiBrian, on 04/28/2008, -2/+2because if A LOT of people do it, it's not extreme, it's the status quo. I am not saying that most Muslims do this, but enough of them do it so that it's not even news anymore.
        • slotimus, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2You have no idea what you are talking about. You hear about every psychopath in the middle east and immediately blame Islam. Its not the norm, its on the norm on your western media.
          • TsuruchiBrian, on 04/29/2008, -1/+3If I see one story about 1 crazy religious guy I'd let it go. If I see 5, I'd still let it go. When it gets to hundreds and thousands of stories of religious fanatics acting like mindless psychopaths, I almost have to conclude something more than just randomness is going on here.

            I am not excusing other religions. I think all religions have the potential to breed this kind of "faith", but lately Islam is the one stealing the spotlight. This is an honest question for you. What would it take to make you question Islam as being a good religion? Obviously thousands of dead people from suicide bombers is not enough to convince you. What about 10's of thousands? or 100's of thousands? millions of people? 10's of millions? Or is it that no matter how many people kill in the name of Allah, Islam is never to blame?

            I might even agree with you that an ideology can't be blamed by the actions of all it's followers. Maybe they are doing it wrong or something. But I've read a pretty good chunk of not just the Quran but also the Hadith, and I don't think these suicide bombers are completely misinterpreting these "holy" texts.
          • slotimus, on 04/29/2008, -3/+1Its would take you showing me in the Qur'an where it says any of this is legit. If you can't show me that, then I just see this as either a corruption of the faith or a cultural practice.

            How did you read the qur'an?

            هل يتحدث العربية؟ كيف يقرأ كتاب الله؟
    • source1984, on 04/28/2008, -2/+4This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam. According to Islamic law the father has committed an illegal act. Any basic scholar on Islam can attest to this. Honor killing is an evil cultural practice.
    • slotimus, on 04/28/2008, -4/+2WOW! Digg has taken an AWFUL turn for the worst. Are you guys so easy to convince? Would you read the news about all the sick stuff that happens all over the world for other religions?

      ITS NOT ISLAM. ITS THE IDIOTS WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIM WHO DO STUFF LIKE THIS.
    • TheUserFactor, on 04/28/2008, -2/+2This has nothing to do with Islam or religion. Religion only enhances your essence as a human, and makes you more of what you already are. If you're a bad person, a violent person, a jealous and fearful person, religion can make it very easy for you to indulge those things. Again - this has nothing to do with Islam or the culture of Islam. That's absolute ignorance.
  • sfacets, on 04/28/2008, -93/+7Why do you spread this crap?
    • Berkana, on 04/28/2008, -11/+96Because this kind of crap needs to be exposed. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
    • SpaceMonkeyZero, on 04/28/2008, -1/+22You would rather censor stories you don't agree with? How very progressive of you.
    • GordonV, on 04/28/2008, -1/+4sfacets, we all know it's crap. We have to deal with it so this crap doesn't happen again.
    • NikoKun, on 04/28/2008, -1/+3Because people like you sit by and allow this crap to continue.
      • sfacets, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1While people like you sit at home, digg it and then whine about it.
    • hmunkey, on 04/28/2008, -1/+5Because it's true. And why do you care? Your icon is a Hindu symbol. Muslims have attacked Hindus for centuries.
      • sfacets, on 04/28/2008, -3/+1Your ignorance is blinding, it isn't a Hindu symbol.
      • drvcr, on 04/29/2008, -0/+3sfacets, your stupidity is blinding.

        The symbol Om or Aum has its origins in Hinduism, but it also can be attributed to Buddhism and Jainism. hmunkey was probably referring to its common point of reference.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om
    • MasterThief117, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2Then what the ***** do we want? We all ***** hate how their government functions, however we also hate the ***** war going on to do whatever. What do we want? Someone tell me for I am really confused.
      • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1Libs want people to pretend these things don't happen, or at least for people to blame it on Bush. Repubs want to kill terrorists before they get to our country. Libertarians just want to pretend nothing exists beyond our borders.
    • sfacets, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1There are so many worse stories out there - the fact that 1/3 of the pop are starving for example. And yet you would be lead by a subjective story about 1 death?
      • ponchietto, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Because it is a story of a father killing his daughter, (insert generic curse here), and getting away with it in the general indifference.
        I do not think we are holding a contest on digg about the worst story, by the way.

  • Berkana, on 04/28/2008, -41/+13What kind of democracy are we trying to establish in Iraq?
    • willdiggforfood, on 04/28/2008, -6/+17THIS kind. You're entirely right. We meant it to be a democracy where parents stab their children.
      /s
    • Picaroon, on 04/28/2008, -2/+5You idiot. Making it a democracy is the first step toward ending ***** like this! Christians did the same stuff before democracy.
      • Berkana, on 05/01/2008, -0/+1Afghanistan is a democracy, and the people appear to want an Islamic theocracy. They tried to put Christian converts to death, and if it were up to a vote, it would probably happen. Democracy does not automatically default to a human rights respecting modern society; if the people are backwards, the democracy will be also.
      • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1Christians established freedom of religion, and are trying to spread such freedoms to other countries. Another hater of Christianity with no clue. Honor killings were never a part of Christianity or Judaism.
  • OfNumbers, on 04/28/2008, -21/+71How dare you develop a crush! *Stomp, choke, stab*
    • centerblack, on 04/28/2008, -3/+1Reply to get near the top =P

      Look, the USA wasn't exactly picture perfect 150 years ago. It took us some time to get where we are, and we're still far from perfect. How many people were stolen from their homes and forced to work or murdered before slavery was abolished?

      Does every ***** up story out of Iraq/Iran get on Digg? Some really ***** up ass ***** happens in this country too. How about the guy that killed his 17 month old daughter over a broken XBOX?

      Is it right? Of course not
      Does it suck? Yes.

      We fought a war for "Iraqi Freedom". What does that mean? Are they free to make their own laws? Are they free to live by our laws? Clearly they're not going to change their ways without complete subjugation or a LOT of time. I don't know. I'm sorry they didn't grow up like everyone else did, but if this is their culture, I'm leaning to the "it needs to be changed" side.

      It looks really bad on us when the ***** puppet government we installed is already totally corrupt (man arrested and released uncharged). This kind of ***** will continue to go own until the people involved start getting prison sentences.

      Put the father and his sons in the stocks and make them stare at a mirror and a picture of their victim for the next 50 years.
    • DesertDude, on 04/29/2008, -2/+2A few days ago, there was a *video* of US soldiers firing at civilians. It got buried as "inaccurate".

      Now there's *text* of an unproven story. It gets 1,700+ digs.

      Like I always said, thank God the digg community is this callous and morally inferior. What they bury or dig should mean absolutely nothing. Americans are dumber than ***** & ridiculously biased. It's who they are. They can't change it.
      • legendxx, on 04/29/2008, -0/+2"Americans are dumber than ***** & ridiculously biased."

        Read that to yourself a couple times.. you may see the irony.
  • steveoco, on 04/28/2008, -70/+57Sounds like Iraq was better off under Saddam...
    • NoCt1, on 04/28/2008, -14/+51This happened during his reign also. Except it was Him or someone under his regime killing also. This was not limited to just one period (post war). Learn your history and culture before you automatically assume that its only like this because the US is there.
      • anaoum, on 04/28/2008, -22/+10I don't know where you get your "history" from, but how about we ask someone who has lived and grown up in Iraq whilst Saddam was in power?
        Iraq was a much safer place before the US came. There was no crime - people would be too scared to commit any crimes.
        We would let our kids wander the streets without worrying that anything was going to happen.
        Saddam was a dictator, but at least he had everything under control.
        • Pixelante, on 04/28/2008, -5/+7Most dictatorship are safe places. That's why it's hard to understand the Diggers' cries against police state, big brother and so on. If you value your safety above the mostly irrelevant "freedoms" you have, then you should welcome dictatorship with open arms.
        • slvrbullet87, on 04/28/2008, -1/+12"To scared to commit any crimes" thats how i want to live my life in absolute fear
          • anaoum, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1You do not understand. You cannot give these animals freedom. Saddam was the only one the could control them.
    • Risingashes, on 04/28/2008, -10/+1Der.
    • proliance, on 04/28/2008, -1/+39That's just plain stupid. This has been going on for a thousand years.
      • pintomp3, on 04/28/2008, -4/+7the practice actually predates islam, christianity, and judaism.
    • NecroDigg, on 04/28/2008, -11/+16No way. The middle east has ALWAYS been ***** up, and always will be ***** up. The people are idiots and should be left alone to kill each other off.
      • Fozefy, on 04/28/2008, -6/+6Actually it seems very much like mid-millennium Europe. Dark Ages, Crusades, etc. So sure, they may be "***** up" currently, but saying they always will be is a little facetious.
        • bkemper, on 04/28/2008, -3/+6I don't think you know what "facetious" mean.
          • Fozefy, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2"bantering: cleverly amusing in tone;"

            Shrugs, though it may not be the best word it still seems accurate to me.
    • fani, on 04/28/2008, -2/+15What a dumb ignorant comment. steveoco.
      This ***** shouldn't happen at all - Iraq under Saddam or not.

      I hate idiotic selfrighteous people like steveoco who think just because they can shout loudly they're correct.
    • willaggs, on 04/28/2008, -3/+9Saddam was a rapist and a murderer who committed genocide on the kurds and the shiites by dumping chemical weapons on entire villages and killing tens of thousands of men, women, and children. His sons had random men beat to death for their own amusement and grabbed women off of the street and brought them to rape chambers.

      Say what you want about the war, but don't ever assume that Iraq would have been better off with Saddam in charge
    • wilcocola, on 04/28/2008, -2/+2absoultely not true, read a little before you open your mouth
    • BabyWookie, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2Women were much off under Saddam's secular rule. That is a well-established fact.
      • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+2You mean the women Saddam's sons raped? How about the ones who were murdered and put in mass graves?
  • KBailey1734, on 04/28/2008, -6/+39"She now works for an organisation campaigning against honour killings."
    Atleast they are working for a better future within themselves now.
    • greenzrx, on 04/28/2008, -0/+33"They" aren't. The girls mother is. (TFA doesn't state if the 'organization' is founded by muslims or not) Notice how she had to go into hiding for fear of retribution by her husband. And he has the backing of a number of government officials. I find the whole thing utterly disgusting. My heart goes out to that poor woman. I can't imagine what could possibly cause someone to kill their own daughter. And to have government sanctioning of this criminal activity is unfathomable.
      • eviltandem, on 04/28/2008, -4/+10It's quite easy, the answer is religion. Christianity was not entirely different during the dark-ages. When the church had armies, money, and power similar nonsense went on.

        Eventually we all (Europeans) woke up and realized that religion was a ***** poor thing to base your government on. It doesn't actually offer anything useful for a society. Sure it makes some people feel better, but irrational hatred, fear, and bigotry is a bit hard to hold together in the long run.

        Building schools, sewer systems, roads, and all the other things that make our lives great gives us a reason to live, and enjoyment in life. Arguing that gay marriage will kill us all just doesn't have any practical societal goals. You can't build a democracy of people based on hating different groups within it.
        • EarendilStar, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1I'm going to draw a large and distinct line between the crusades and a father killing his own daughter over something like this.

          perhaps one is no more wrong than the other, but one definitely takes a completely different mental state and disregard for personal emotion and attachment to ones own blood in order to accomplish.
          the "reasons" needed to go to war with a stranger are many, power, land, and religion being big ones. Reasons to kill ones own daughter? wtf?
      • makkaveli19, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1i do agree that his intent was based on religion, but there is no way that this can all be blamed on islam. sharia law is made up and used only in arab countries. the rest of the other muslim countries DO NOT look the other way at honour killing( where is the honour in it anyway) in no way am i being an apologist, but i know for a fact this would not have happened in iran, and if it did the person would not have gotten away with it.
    • tastypickles, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1What's the name of the organization? I'll support it.
  • NSResponder, on 04/28/2008, -9/+204HER disgrace? SInce when is loving someone a greater disgrace than committing murder?

    That vicious little pig-***** needs to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

    -jcr
    • Sinnic, on 04/28/2008, -6/+14After being run through a gauntlet made up of the British soldier and all his friends.
    • ecshome, on 04/28/2008, -16/+4and sodemized by those soldier, take his sorry excuse for a scrotum and twist it slowly until it falls off!
    • sirlancelot88, on 04/28/2008, -40/+5You can't understand the father's point of view because you're trapped in a white male's Western viewpoint. And because the soldier was a white British man, you immediately empathize with him, being of his same race and as a member of the Anglophonic cultural sphere. Imagine if your daughter was going out with Adolf Hitler. You probably wouldn't murder her, but I'm sure you'd be very, very *****.
      • raidfibre, on 04/28/2008, -1/+39"...probably wouldn't murder her" is really the only relevant thing you said.
      • Risingashes, on 04/28/2008, -1/+27The inability to see something from someones point of view does not in any way justify their point of view.
        The whole concept behind killing your daughter because they apparently dishonoured him is wrong. It treats woman like objects- able to be disposed of as you would a stubborn goat.
        There are customs, beliefs and acts throughout Western culture that are vile and should be cast out- however this incident cannot be justified by simply saying it's acceptable over there. Some customs are wrong.
      • NSResponder, on 04/28/2008, -3/+40Oh, blow it out your ass. Anyone who would kill their own child is a degenerate. Trying to claim that it's OK because he's Muslim is a vicious smear against all Muslims.

        -jcr
      • IglooBurner, on 04/28/2008, -12/+1with the exception of being empathizing the soldier solely because he was a white male, u actually make sense its too bad you're getting dig down for actually thinking about the situation from more than one angel (most diggers lack that capability, especially in terms of cultures).
        • eviltandem, on 04/28/2008, -0/+5I can imagine myself in this guys shoes. I can imagine how a person that would do this views the world.

          That is what scares the snot out of me. I don't want this guy as a next door neighbor, if you catch my drift. I figure it's a small step of logic for this guys to want to kill me because I harmed his honor. Worse, we seem to get to make up what that even means.
      • rayraym0fucka, on 04/28/2008, -7/+2getting *****... killing someone... getting *****... killing someone. Hmm sounds like a no brainer! Let's kill the bitch!
      • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -0/+11Anyone who would KILL as a reaction to someone LOVING is a horrible person.
        I dont want to sound like a hippy, but c'mon...
      • moonbastic, on 04/28/2008, -1/+13In one fell swoop, Sirlancelot, you've discovered this afternoon why a culturally relativistic viewpoint is an idiotic viewpoint.

        Don't say digg never taught ya nothin'.
        • sirlancelot88, on 04/28/2008, -11/+1Actually, I've discovered in one fell swoop that Digg lacks the intellectual capacity to see the big picture. People here can't shake the assumptions and culture in which they were raised and consider events from a universal viewpoint. The concepts of "right" and "wrong" do not even exist, they are PURELY cultural concepts. No culture can judge another, because, fundamentally, all cultures are illusory.
          • Beveridge89, on 04/28/2008, -0/+10Thanks for the morality 101. I think we're all aware that right and wrong have no objective definition, but guess what? I'm going to continue to judge murder. And, more importantly, i'm going to continue to believe my values are the best and deserved by all of humanity. If you don't believe that of your own, they aren't worth having.

            And, while it might be easy for you to talk in theory on Digg that you accept right and wrong are subjective, you don't live your life like that. Stop *****.
          • airquotes, on 04/28/2008, -0/+6Ok well tell that to the next person who tries to stab you
          • eviltandem, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4@Beveridge89
            Isn't that just a wordy way of saying, "I'm admit I'm wrong, but intend to continue doing it anyway"?

            Isn't that exactly what this guy just did? He thinks you are wrong, and killing his daughter is right. He doesn't care what you say, he is going to continue feeling this way.

            So how do we ever resolve any differences? Both sides of the fence resolutely refuse to admit the other side has it's own culture, so nothing gets done.
          • mnocket, on 04/28/2008, -0/+3I wouldn't be surprised to find out that sirlancelot88 lives in Vermont. This is the same type of Progressive thinking that supports restorative justice.
          • Beveridge89, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1eviltdem: Sort of. I accept there is no objective judge of value. I don't accept that the values of human rights and liberty are not better than the values that lead to this girls murder. I don't have any justification for it, yes. Logically, I know that what SirLancelot says is correct, but I still won't accept it. Because that would mean accepting a World view where, while i might disagree with the fathers actions, I should shrug and accept it as a difference of culture. That doesn't resolve differences; its the same sort of logic that allows the worst acts of humanity to be excused.

            And, as I said, you and I live our lives on the basis of a set of objective values, so why should i pretend on here that subjective morality is anything more than hypothetical *****?
          • eviltandem, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1@Beveridge89
            But he's doing the same thing. He's doing the exact same thing as you are. He was born into a society, given ideals and morality by that society, and believes his version to be right. Just like you do.

            This guy also lives his life by a set of "objective values". His just happen to be different than yours. His "objective values" were shaped in a different culture than yours, hence are different. To him, not keeping your women in line is the pinnacle of immorality, but we aren't bending over to his views either are we?

            All there is is subjective morality. Nothing you believe about morality would matter a bit if you moved to a country that didn't share it. It's laws, rules and culture might lock you up for them.

            This is bad, I'm not saying it's not, but you are never going to win any arguments with these people telling them their culture is "evil". Just like they won't convince you as long as you believe yours is the only true morality. If you want them to change you have to give them a reason to. Telling them yours is better is not helping, they think theirs is better...
          • Beveridge89, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Who said their culture was evil? His actions were evil. This isn't a cultural thing; her mother is equally, more so, in fact, disgusted than me. She grew up in the same culture, and is now risking her life to stop this sort of thing happening. Are you arguing culture affects some people more than others? Would you make the same argument for someone who grew up next door to you who did the same thing? Culture isn't what makes you. People are affected by their culture when creating their values, but they are not dictated by them. Thats why we all have different viewpoints.

            If you want to argue that I can't 'win' by declaring his actions evil because I say so, and your probably right. But equally i can't win by saying Fair enough, and excusing his actions based on what people around him do as well. In fact, I would view that as having lost.

            And , again, I must go back to the fact that while subjective morality may be all that logically exists, it is not really worth entertaining the concept since the real world does not, never has and never will work like that. Using that doesn't just excuse someone on the basis of 'culture'; it excuses everyone to do anything. And my bet is that you don't do that, so you shouln't be using it either.
        • eviltandem, on 04/28/2008, -2/+2Understanding someone else's point of view is moronic?

          Let me see if I follow your logic. Understanding another culture is evil. Unless they all understand ours, and behave the way we want them to, then they are evil.

          If they follow the same dogma you do, then nobody can ever stop fighting.

          Saying your way is better because you refuse to acknowledge that there are others is insulting and way, way, stupid. Start with the things you agree on, then subtly bump them the direction you want them to go. Get more flies with honey and all that...
      • czeman, on 04/28/2008, -0/+3I didn't have empathy for the soldier; I had sympathy for him and the murder victim.
    • bonedead, on 04/28/2008, -1/+10Pig-*****, hah.
    • iansides, on 04/28/2008, -2/+3why you gotta call his wife a pig? she just lost her daughter because her psychopath-piece-of-*****-douchebag husband murdered her, give the lady a break.
    • Definition, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Welcome to Corruption - Our Shame as Humanity.
  • wrs123, on 04/28/2008, -19/+345Attention all moderate Muslims: DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS! Don't sit idly by while assholes like this guy make your entire religion look like crap.
    "Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
    -Edmund Burke
    • sublingo, on 04/28/2008, -10/+29Dude, what are they supposed to do? Bring it up in their weekly meeting?
      • Risingashes, on 04/28/2008, -5/+21"First point of order: What do ya all say about getting rid of those headscarfs? Apparently the American's think they make us look silly."
        *Applause
        "Motion passed. Next is a motion to make it mandatory to call everyone dood from now on."
        *Applause
        "Motion passed."
      • Mothrog, on 04/28/2008, -2/+33How about prosecuting murders instead of giving the murderers a free pass?
        • sublingo, on 04/28/2008, -4/+8That would be an excellent thing for the people associated with this case to do. But the question above was 'attention all moderate muslims.' So the question again is, what is everyone else supposed to do? They can denounce and reject this sort of thing, but what else can you do? The press never covers the denunciations anyway.

          Like after 9/11. Denunciations everywhere, but you had to hunt. Nobody covered it in the MSM. And meanwhile the average american says 'why don't they say anything?'. The whole thing is a circle of fubar.
          • korvan504521, on 04/29/2008, -0/+3actually, after 9/11 there was dancing in the streets in most muslim countries. I remember watching it on cnn.
        • toshibu, on 04/28/2008, -7/+2How about, durrr, I don't live in Iraq.... You want me to go fly to Iraq and "persecute" these people?
          • Mothrog, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2You do realize prosecute is a word, too, right? Idiot.
        • makkaveli19, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1the thing is that the moderate muslim is not in power. (moderates are never in power) also, if you remember after 9/11 thousands and thousands of people and the president of iran at the time gave their condolences and the people were holding candles. did msm even cover that?
    • 140Suffolk, on 04/28/2008, -22/+34Can you be a good person AND be a good Muslim?
      • Zecchetti, on 04/28/2008, -16/+20yes
      • dycc07, on 04/28/2008, -13/+8Yes
      • Eivo, on 04/28/2008, -19/+19No.
      • Kaitsu, on 04/28/2008, -11/+9No. Not good in our eyes at least.
      • Risingashes, on 04/28/2008, -13/+6Can you be a good American nationalist and a good person?
        • Eivo, on 04/28/2008, -6/+8No.
        • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -6/+9Sure you can... we don't advocate killing our own children because they do something we disagree with.
          I'm not saying it doesn't happen here -- it does -- but its not a cultural norm and its not something accepted.
          • Zecchetti, on 04/28/2008, -6/+4Neither do Muslims advocate killing of their children
          • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -2/+7Someone didn't read the article.....
            ""Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws. The father has very good contacts inside the Basra government and it wasn't hard for him to be released and what he did to be forgotten.""
            Sure seems like they're advocating it to me...
          • toshibu, on 04/28/2008, -4/+2Seems like the government is corrupt to me.
      • Encablossa, on 04/28/2008, -10/+20Hell no, their religion promotes violence. You are either.
        • 140Suffolk, on 04/28/2008, -5/+7Why is this so hard for people to accept?
          • Zecchetti, on 04/29/2008, -2/+1Because there is no proof for it, apart for the actions of a few ignorant Muslims and the agenda of the MSM
          • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1Define "few."
      • Definition, on 04/28/2008, -4/+2Ignorance at it's best, all of you guys.

        Seriously, Mohammad preached the opposite to extremism, with those bastards misinterpreting the Qu'ran. This is cultural, not religious.
        • 140Suffolk, on 04/29/2008, -1/+4Mohammad went thru two periods. The good Mohammad and the violent Mohammed. Before he was violent he was very unsuccessful. Gained 150 followers in 10 years or so. Then it was no more mister nice guy. And the blood flowed. Also, you should know that, according the Islam, the later preachings always take precedence.
          Islam is based on conquest. According to the Koran and the Hadiths, Mohammed himself wielded a sword. Mohammed himself led several dozen murderous raids and conquests. Mohammed himself gave the order to behead prisoners and rape conquered women. Mohammed himself personally gave the order to murder political critics.
          • Zecchetti, on 04/29/2008, -3/+1Why don't you read The Life of Muhammad by Karen Armstrong (a non-Muslim).

            From that you will find that the "knowledge" you know is nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if you learnt your facts from a jealous priest. Or maybe you are a jealous priest.
    • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -46/+10Attention white people: STOP INVADING OTHER PEOPLES COUNTRIES AND ***** THEIR DAUGHTERS. Dont sit idly by while assholes make your entire race look like a bunch of greedy power drunk rapists.
      • Hootiehoo, on 04/28/2008, -7/+20WHY THE ***** ARE MY TAX DOLLARS BEING WASTED TO HELP THESE SAVAGE RETARDS
        • kieranmaine, on 04/28/2008, -2/+1The actions of the UK/US have killed about 500k+ since 1990. That's not really help and its the kind of figure that paints the UK/US as savage retards. Your tax dollars are going into funding the arms industry, the private defense contractors/mercenaries, a highly impressive embassy and buying you a huge controlling influence in one of the most important regions in the world - reconstruction comes low down on that list of spending (http://www.zcommunications.org/zmag/viewArticle/17 ... - search for 'Government Accountability Office' if you dont want to read the whole article).
          As oil keeps getting more and more expensive and you've got control over a huge amount of it I'm sure you'll think your tax dollars are well spent - imagine the control the US could have over the economies of China and India (look at how easily Russia can put the squeeze on Europe for example). If you ignore all the deaths, refugees and mass suffering, it's really is money well spent. Being able to influence the economies of other countries is vital to the long term interest of the US.
      • altinnovation, on 04/28/2008, -0/+12The only difference is that we punish our rapists with life in prison or a death sentence.
        • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -8/+2Thats nice for you, but what does that have to do with muslims in iraq?
      • Eivo, on 04/28/2008, -3/+6Fail.
        Religion = Voluntary.
        Race = Mandatory.
        • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -7/+2Having a point = mandatory
          Your rebuttal = Failure
      • raidfibre, on 04/28/2008, -0/+10What does that have to do with the father killing his daughter? Are you justifying "honor" murders?
        • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -8/+1Thats irrelevant. I'm not a muslim living in iraq. I dont know the whole story or the cultural and religious implications that took place in the situation. And unless you where there you dont either. What I do know is that if the british army wasn't over there ***** with people to please george bush and lick his 'murican boots it wouldn't have happened.
          • insertAliasHere, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4Ok, lets assume that the war never happened. Change the soldier into a British businessman, or tourist, and the same thing would have happened to her. And the "cultural and religious implications." Any of these implications that require you to kill your daughter for honor are antiquated and should be quashed. I don't care if it is sacred or cultural, it's brutal and barbaric.
          • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -3/+1^^Its also none of your business. If you dont like the way they do their thing than leave them alone. you honkies fervor for forcibly applying your personal values onto other peoples cultures is just another manifestation of your madness for power over people.
          • insertAliasHere, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1Where did I say anything about "forcibly applying [my] personal values?" I didn't say anything about force. But I have a "madness for power" because I don't think a man should be able to kill his teenage daughter over a crush. I can't believe that you are defending this!! Would you kill your daughter? Your sister (if you have one)? And if you say no, then how can you possibly defend anyone that can?

            But no, I don't want to forcibly impose "my" (read: vast majority of the world's) will. Openly condemn it, protest it, yes. Push my government for economic sanctions on a country that allows it, maybe. Invade and force, no.

            It is my business, because I am a citizen of the world. There are obvious cultural differences around across all the civilizations of the planet, and most of them are trivial, or at the most, non-harmful. But almost every other civilization calls this _murder!!!_ So yes, we as a global people, (not just "honkies," hey, I bet that Latinos and Blacks would condemn this too!) can tell these people that they are wrong.

            tl;dr:
            You're a ***** idiot. (and a racist.)
      • twiztidsinz, on 04/28/2008, -0/+12Please show me where any '*****' took place in this story.
        Please show me where any sort of romantic involvement took place in this story.

        From the Article: "On the day her father, Abdel-Qader Ali, was told of their friendship by a friend, he accused her of having an affair with a British soldier and killed her in front of his wife, Leila Hussain, and their sons."
        FRIENDSHIP. She had a crush on him... its normal for a 17 year old girl to have a crush on someone.. it doesn't mean *****.
        • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -2/+1"its normal for a 17 year old girl to have a crush on someone.. it doesn't mean *****."
          Apparently it did mean *****. But americans and western whities refuse to admit it because you want everything your way.
          • twiztidsinz, on 04/29/2008, -0/+2Yeah.. it means Psycho Dad murdered his own daughter and is getting away with it because of Islamic laws.
            Her crush didn't mean anything. They didn't see or talk to each other outside of where they worked.
      • saigumi, on 04/28/2008, -2/+4Attention brown people: STOP INVADING OTHER PEOPLES COUNTRIES AND ***** THEIR DAUGHTERS. Dont sit idly by while assholes make your entire race look like a bunch of greedy power drunk rapists.

        We all know that the Crusades were a response to curb the Muslim Turks from their rapid conquest of the Byzantine Empire, so you can stop using it as a white Christian unprovked attack on brown Muslims trump card.
        • DVision2406, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2Newsflash: The majority of muslim turks have white skin and dark hair!!!
        • OMGIAMTHEMAN, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2the first crusade had nothing to do with byzantium, check your facts. It was a 100% unprovoked power play by the pope in western europe. There wasnt' even an army in jerusalem waiting for the christian crusaders, who disgustingly enough brought their own civilian settlers with them and slaughtered over 70,000 muslim civilians in one day.
          • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1I certainly don't believe the 70K in one day line. I also don't believe the Catholic Pope had anything to do with Christianity.
      • GordonV, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4Robthom: Do you blame the father @ all?
        • robthom, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1I dont approve of what he did. Obviously it is very disturbing and would be worth a serious ass beating or death in our own culture. But I dont feel that I, or americans and their british lackies have the right to actually determine blame of a muslim man from another country among his own culture and people. We have a right to not like it and disallow it in our country, but not to demand the same reaction and opinion among his own people.
          • Jashobeam5, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1If you go to a foreign country and get kidnapped, don't expect your country to bail you out. Just remember, it's their right among their people to kidnap and kill you.
      • hybridcreation, on 04/28/2008, -0/+4Nowhere in the article did it say he was ***** her. Nice try at trying to cause controversy with sensationalized *****.
    • Viend, on 04/28/2008, -11/+7It doesn't happen at all where I live, or anywhere near where I live. I'm far from Arabia/India so I can't do anything now can I.
      • wrs123, on 04/28/2008, -1/+5I feel like there has got to be something you can do. Don't you think that defeatist attitude of "i can't do anything" kind of self-perpetuating? If you never try to act, you will never know whether you can or cannot do something to make a change. Hell, if people like Martin Luther King Jr or Atta Turk didn't go against the odds to try to incite change, Edmund Burke would look like an asshole and I wouldn't be quoting him.
        • toshibu, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2What can he do then?
          • korvan504521, on 04/29/2008, -1/+1the same thing the people who support the Palestinians at my university do. get out there, wave signs, protest the actions that go against your belifes. get together and write articles to the newspaper denouncing the actions. Its not that complicated.
        • Roninsama, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1home-made posters and aggressive proposal of importing cheezburger to Islamic states
      • aeoo, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2Try harder. I personally do not care who is moderate and who isn't. The Islamic ideology is just too convenient for the promulgation of evil. Islam is a seed of evil. Sure, you may not plant the seed and the evil won't sprout from it. But nothing good can sprout from Islam. Islam has held back Arabic people for a long time. If you are an honest and good person, the least you can do is renounce your harmful religion. But if you insist on associating yourself with these killers, you better find something you can do about it. Don't just sit here and say there is nothing you can do. That is not acceptable and you are not accepted or welcome here with that attitude.
    • leexy, on 04/28/2008, -3/+36This is stupid. While on a humanitarian level, I feel ashamed to be part of the same species that produces such specimens, I don't feel the least bit responsible for the actions of every person wandering the Earth who professes Islam as a religion.
      This is a crime, and it should be treated as such. Seeing anything else in this is pure idiocy.
    • Slackdragon, on 04/28/2008, -5/+29I can't help but believe that such silence on the outside is veiled head-nodding and covert grinning behind closed doors.

      I -want- to believe moderate Islam exists, but WHERE is it? I don't hear it. I don't see it. Silence is tacit support. This extremism has taken a wonderful vibrant culture and turned it into a nightmare. What used to be the seat of science and culture before the middle-ages has been shifted into a backwards dust bowl by these zealots

      I think they've been repressed mentally so long they agree with this type of barbarism, which is why you don't hear anyone standing up in outrage. And you see this so-called "father" literally getting away with murder.
      • dianebl, on 04/28/2008, -3/+12There are lots of moderate Islam countries. Turkey comes to mind. So does Morocco.

        I have several Moroccan male friends. They have a worse opinion about this kind of thing than the average digger.
      • OMGIAMTHEMAN, on 04/28/2008, -5/+14we're everywhere, on your digg boards, writing our congressmen, calling up the fox newsroom, but do we get airtime? no. The one thing the liberal media and the conservative media share in common is their desire to slander Muslims and Islam. That's why stories like this that have nothing to do with Islam but have the effect of making muslims look like savages show up, but stories showing the humanity, justice, and mercy of islam will not show up.

        take for instance muslim freedom fighters in chechnya - their civil war movement has been going on over 10 years and they don't get airtime because they are legit freedom fighters who just want to rule themselves. the once in 10 years when they get airtime was when some madmen held kids hostage in a school. the russians killed the kids but the muslims got blamed in the media. The muslim world condemned those madmen, but it didnt' make a lick of difference to the media.

        just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it's not there
        • Murdats, on 04/28/2008, -2/+6and then you apparently get burried by the same people who cry about the lack of moderate and rational voices.
          like crying for proof and when its presented hiding it so you can keep on crying.
        • toshibu, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2Exactly!
        • Hotrox, on 04/28/2008, -0/+2The one thing that liberal/conservative media has in common is the need to sensationalize every ***** news piece in order to boost ratings. The reason no one hears of moderate Muslims is because, "Tonight at 8, Muslims behaving like human beings" isn't going to attract attention.
        • utahnkid, on 04/28/2008, -5/+1Sorry man, it doesn't cut it. When these stories come out and he gets off because it's apparently some tradition (traditions that involve killing people are usually frowned upon) and he "knows people" in the (obviously corrupt) government. It's like someone giving me a cake they spent a week making and finding out they let a dog turd get in too.. I mean I appreciate the effort but there's still poo in my cake.
        • CCricers, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1Unfortunately, not hearing about it is effectively the same as not being there at all. Being on the media's side is the one dominant strategy to acknowledge that something exists. And now like Hotrox brought up, the mainstream news has boiled down to a pool of extremes. It's not gonna be mentioned if it's not "extreme" enough.
        • genuine127, on 04/29/2008, -0/+0thank you.
      • toshibu, on 04/28/2008, -2/+7"WHERE is it?" We get dugg down, that's where.
      • mw113, on 04/28/2008, -1/+1we exist, and plenty in number. the backwards minority is what the media wants to stir up. they dont talk about the numerous conferences, the community dialogs, that we have about these issues. we speak up and we do not tolerate this *****. but no main stream media wants to cover it, they like to promote the fear mongering.
    • Murdats, on 04/28/2008, -14/+5I will be sure next time a non muslim kills their daughter (unless you claim that never happens) to shout
      Attention all moderate (christians|jews|athiests|males|females|americans|british|blonde haired people): DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS! Don't sit idly by while assholes like this guy make your entire (religion|gender|nation|hair colour) look like crap
      • thrin, on 04/28/2008, -1/+11If the government turns a blind eye to it, I fully expect you to. I don't think anyone here is primarily upset about the father. There are crazy people everywhere. The thing I am upset about is a government that sanctions this brutality against its own people.