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Gaza withouth Electricity - Fauxography in Action watch!

youtube.com — Check out Hamas' fauxography in action in these images of Gaza in the dark. Note the shut blinds, the working street lamps, the working monitor of the baby in the hospital. It's all there in those images if you just take a closer look. Enlightening video.

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  • gbudavid, on 02/25/2008, -12/+39Yes They learned a lot about Photoshopping from the Media
    • barakatx2, on 02/25/2008, -22/+17or maybe they learned how to put gas into a generator you gullible pricks
      • masterm1nd, on 02/25/2008, -8/+17Ha, duped from youtube comment...

        Anyone who is going to to defend this has to account for the closed shades in the candlelight meeting photos... Was that because of generators too?
        • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -13/+4The President of the United States stages press events, why not Palestinians?

          Hell, according to most Americans, Palestinians would have to stage all of them
    • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -26/+22What a joke. A few photos of working electricity doesn't mean that there is consistently enough electricity.
      • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -24/+15I'd like to add - look at who is submitting this story if you doubt that it is shameless propaganda.
        • oshear, on 02/25/2008, -12/+17Well... hamas_jewkiller was asked to submit the piece but he declined saying "Allahu Akbar infidel pigs, may death overcome all jews and their filthy offspring God willing, do not confuse truth with righteousness.".
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -23/+8Yeah, let me know when they let you on Last Comic Standing. I can't wait, seriously.
          • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -7/+5Do you even know what Allahu Akbar means?
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -1/+10Kettle, meet pot.
      • americangoy, on 02/25/2008, -12/+7Wow this comment was totally buried.
        You see - truth is not admittable for these people, neither is logical and critical thinking...
      • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -1/+12The comment deserved to be buried as it is a straw man. The value of the photos is not that they merely show there is electricity, it is that they show how the situation is depicted in a false light, excuse my pun.
      • nepawoods, on 02/25/2008, -2/+10"What a joke. A few photos of working electricity doesn't mean that there is consistently enough electricity."

        That isn't the point. The point is that they fake these things, like they fake everything else.
        • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -8/+1And I suppose you consider that self-evident. Not everyone is as biased as you.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+6Is this evidence enough:
          http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201070 ...
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/26/2008, -4/+1"But some of the journalists noticed that there was actually no need for the candles because both meetings were being held in daylight."

            Wow, way to understand symbolism. Nobody expects anyone to believe that candles are necessary in the daytime, as these "anonymous Palestinian journalists" did a great job of "noticing." Maybe a source with fewer unnamed sources, in a more reputable rag than the Jerusalem Post? ...no?
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -1/+3LOL, The Jerusalem Post isn't reputable? Why, because it doesn't fit in with the way you'd like to perceive the world?
            This isn't symbolism, it's a cynical exaggerative manipulation of public sentiment.
            BTW, if you're Palestinian you know what Hamas does to journalists that openly oppose it.
    • anidal, on 02/25/2008, -10/+20Israel supplies around 50% of Gaza's electricity (I think) so its completely plausible that some areas have power while others don't.

      What I don't understand is the perspective taken by the OP/vid that seems to indicate that all of Gaza has power and the crisis is all a lie. How is that any better than the news agencies you're trying to discredit?
      • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -13/+11The video was probably made by a Zionist
      • hadees, on 02/26/2008, -0/+6Try like 70% of the electricity is supplied by Israel.
    • DevilInPgh, on 02/25/2008, -2/+12Try closer to 60-70%, coming from power plants in Israel. The reduced fuel, and thus power (as the fuel is used in the power plant in Gaza), is because the Gazans can't keep themselves from shooting their loads via Qassams into places where their dicks don't belong. Thus, it's an easy statement: no Qassams, no problem. Don't stop the Qassams, no power. Then again, the people launching the Qassams are also ruling the Strip, as supported by the people living there, so they have quite a problem. Elections have consequences.
  • franklymister, on 02/25/2008, -18/+105I'd like more details, sources, evidence, etc., before I made a definitive conclusion, but the premise seems very plausible. Israel has imposed many hardships on Palestinians over the years, but the Palestinians have exaggerated and misled the foreign press on many occasions.
    When terrorist acts occur, Israel reacts, and often overreacts. I'll concede that point. What the other side wants you to believe, however, is that Israel is some evil monster that takes pleasure in oppressing people, and is only interested in making life miserable for the Palestinians. Wouldn't it be much easier to believe that there are two sides here, each with basically good intentions, who get swept up in the game of vengeance and fear?

    Arafat taught the Palestinians very well how to manipulate media for their own gain. Just look at all the times he invited news cameras to come see the desperate poverty and suffering, all while he was building up millions and millions of dollars in his own accounts, money that never helped anyone but Arafat.

    If the photos with the candles were indeed used to try and show a Gaza without electricity, then clearly they were staged. I'm sure Gaza did have electricity problems, but it seems like they knew how to play the media to put sympathy on only one side - theirs. After all, why did Israel have to take security measures in the first place?
    • p0s3r, on 02/25/2008, -22/+45Because the Pallies keep shooting rockets at them? Seems reasonable to me.
      • footballhero, on 02/25/2008, -20/+13and did they do that? for a laugh?
        • franklymister, on 02/25/2008, -5/+24They do it because of an incredibly twisted and difficult history between the Israelis and their Arab neighbors. Its modern roots reach back roughly to the 1930s (some might say the late 1890s). It's a story of corrupt leaders, misplaced vengeance, anti-Semitism, Eurocentric bigotry against Arabs, terrible personal tragedies experienced a million times or more, Nazis, oil, broken promises, ancient feuds, and a world body that would rather point fingers than try to find peace.

          That environment has led to a situation where Israeli and Palestinian children are born into a view of each other as the enemy, both sides being convinced that the other is to blame, and neither one realizing that they've been had by the leaders who claim to watch over them.
        • mithrasinvictus, on 02/25/2008, -4/+17i cant think of one good reason to want to kill random innocent civilians.
          • franklymister, on 02/25/2008, -12/+1Because you're ***** scared, and you don't see the other side as "innocent." That applies to both Israelis and Palestinians, by the way.
      • xTRUMANx, on 02/25/2008, -26/+9p0s3r, your comment shows that there are no two brain cells working in your head. As footballhero said, do you think they do so for a laugh. You can be a retard and pick a side before attempting to hear both sides of the story or make an attempt at researching this never-ending war and then come to a conclusion. No point asking you though, you probably just bashed the keyboard with your head to come up with that comment p0s3r.
      • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -17/+8I never really realized how unaware some (if not most) digg users are when it comes to knowledge of the delicate Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Surely, poser, you would be inclined to tell us about the continuous raids initiated by the Israeli Defense Forces into Palestinian territory (not to mention the bombings). Tell us about the thousands of Palestinians that live in an absolutely destitute ghetto-like ***** hole. Aren't they subject to civilian deaths as well? You may object and reply that the Palestinians are firing rockets randomly into purely civil territory, and I will digress that the tactic of lobbing homemade Qassam rockets that kill not even a double digit number of Israelis is wrong, and could be classified as Terrorism with a capital T. But this terrorism is desperate terrorism that begs for attention, and represents the desire of Palestinian retaliation for the brother killed by an Israeli Soldier while he lobbed rocks at a tank in the First Intifada. It amazes how this switch of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict role compares to the David vs. Goliath situation. Quite a role twist, huh? No wonder why Palestinians feel so helpless..

        Guys, before you even think of digging me down, just try to clear your mind of any previous misconceptions or beliefs that you may act on and understand that this is coming from the mouth of an average american student that understands the easily dismissive qualities of a controversial piece of writing that could quickly essentially be laughed at and classified as propaganda. I understand that Arabs can easily be classified as Terrorists who's only goal is the destruction of the Israeli state. But to begin to act in true rational fashion, we must realize that Arabs are people too, and that they really have been misrepresented. Remember, there are radicals in every population. Some are just unfortunate to have them acting as their representatives standing on a metal platform in front of the world's eyes (the media, which is a different story), shouting incoherent and utterly unreal beliefs while their faces throb with unreasonable rage, a single vein throbbing and dancing in its insanity over their temple.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -5/+17Misrepresented? I'd like to think so, but the facts remain - Hamas won a majority in their elections. What's a nation-state like Israel to do when the people it occupies vote for a movement that refuses to find a middle ground and declares repeatedly it intends to "liberate" every last inch of Israel?
          • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -14/+5I would like to think that the Palestinians focused more on the fact that Hamas might bring them more attention on the world stage. The fact that the Palestinian people chose Hamas over Fatah confuses me, but then I remember that Hamas not only provides a small amount of hope to the Palestinians through it's precarious and outright opposition to Israeli policy, but it also provides a large amount of social services to the Palestinian people, which certainly have not had the greatest experience in it's welfare history. Hamas does construct schools and hospital structures. The Israeli scholar Reuven Paz stated that "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/
            The occupants of the Palestinian territory, as I stated before, are extremely frustrated and deprived. They probably are more focused on their well being than the destruction of the Israeli state, even if this latter objective is important to them, because they are experiencing a lifestyle so disgusting, they preferably would vote for an organization that actually cares for it's people, and acts on that empathy, even if it's attitude towards the Israeli state differs. I would also argue that the Fatah party lost the people's faith before the elections, as they viewed it as corrupt. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1151 ...
            In a nutshell, the Palestinian people care(d) less about the foreign policy of Hamas, than the actions that Hamas is/was undertaking.
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -4/+18Israelis should not be asked to bear the burden of Palestinian corruption and frustration, and it is the DUTY of the Israeli state to protect its citizens. It is naive to believe Hamas is caring for Palestinians out of empathy. Like the parallel Muslim Brotherhood, they have an agenda.
          • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -18/+2To actually cause the Palestinian corruption and then revoke responsibility is wildly unethical. For example: If you run into a house, kick the family living there out onto the street, promise them half the rooms but have them refuse because they want their whole house back, and then witness their new life as a homeless family, wouldn't you be responsible for their predicament? Yes.

            And I don't support Hamas, like I said, I support the people that voted for Hamas. But in order to win that support, Hamas must have been extremely convincing... 90% of a budget that is dedicated towards public welfare is pretty significant. And where do you think Hamas originated from? They grew up in Palestinian territories, it would actually be impossible for the whole of Hamas to have a stronger desire to destroy the Jew than to have a stronger sense of empathy with it's own people.
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -4/+15Do you believe Israel is the cause of Palestinian corruption?

            Your analogy is simplistic and grossly inaccurate.

            There are people living in poverty all over the world. Should Africa launch a war against Europe for their colonialism? Should Native Americans explode on US buses? Should the Aboriginies attack white Australian farmers and fire rockets and mortars on Alice Springs out of their territories? NO. Does a nation-state have a right to stop supplying the foreign entity that attacks it? YES.
            You are defending the breakdown of civilized conflicts. Perhaps you forgot what Europe was like in the Middle Ages.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -12/+2Actually they don't have that right whatsoever. A few people shooting rockets is an issue for the police. Collectively punishing 1.5 million people for this is nonsensical, immoral, and a war crime, for which Israel will be prosecuted.
            Why do you keep defending immoral acts! That is in and of itself highly immoral! Come on, yonoz, step outside yourself and get a different perspective. Don't you see what you're doing is wrong, on a variety of levels?
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -3/+11"A few people shooting rockets is an issue for the police." - and since the PA police doesn't do anything, furthermore, it encourages them, we all know that it falls to the IDF to deal with the treat - since real governments care for their own citizens.

            "Why do you keep defending immoral acts! That is in and of itself highly immoral!" - said the cheerleader for Qassam launching.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -14/+3You're not yonoz, nonreservist coward, ***** off. Think that I just couldn't respond to your insightful comment, if you'd like.
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -3/+12Goebbels much?
            If you keep repeating your lie, it just makes you dirtier.
            Plus, as always - confronted with facts, you kick and scream and cuss. No substance at all.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -13/+2No foobutt, you're just not a part of this conversation. For the second time, stop disrupting other people's discussions. ***** off! Do I need to call the teacher over here?
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -1/+8And yet, you fail to address the points before you, instead reaching for infantile name-calling. Tsk, tsk.
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -2/+8Hiya foopirata, welcome to the conversation :)
            "Actually they don't have that right whatsoever. A few people shooting rockets is an issue for the police. Collectively punishing 1.5 million people for this is nonsensical, immoral, and a war crime, for which Israel will be prosecuted."
            You'll have to support these statements somehow. Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, but even if it was occupied, it would be under martial law - the police only have authority over Israeli citizens there (and we pulled all of them out). Whenever the western world issues economic sanctions, such as in the case of apartheid South Africa, they are committing collective punishment, do you think that too is nonsensical, immoral and a war crime? How about war itself, is that not "collective punishment"? Not to mention rocket fire on civilians, which is carried out by more than a few people, who happen to answer to the Hamas leadership which has sovereignty over the strip.

            "Why do you keep defending immoral acts! That is in and of itself highly immoral! Come on, yonoz, step outside yourself and get a different perspective. Don't you see what you're doing is wrong, on a variety of levels?"
            I could say the exact same to you, it still doesn't get us anywhere. In my opinion you're suggesting a breakdown of the nation state, we saw how peaceful the world was before the age of enlightenment.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -8/+2Mmm yes I've heard this canard of equating collective punishment with UN sanctions being thrown around. I'm happy to address it, even though I think you are sick to put it forward. Maybe this will help, but you should read the law on collective punishment for a better answer.

            Israeli is occupying (and illegally colonizing, which is really what all the delay tactics are about) Palestine. Occupying forces are required to provide for the innocent victims they are illegally occupying. There is a fence all the way around Gaza. There is no infrastructure in Gaza. The Gazans have little access to funds and cannot use those funds outside, since they are not allowed to travel and nothing is allowed in. They are effectively in prison. Collective punishment on these defenseless people directly starves them, etc.

            UN sanctions, however, are targeted against a government, like in Iran. Governments have access to all sorts of other avenues, and can still take care of it's own people. It is an economic impact meant to pressure change from the bottom up. The people's health is never put into jeopardy, or their lives. It's a moral act. That's why the UN does these, but condemns what the gov. of Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So the UN would be another good place for you to get well written opinions regarding this issue.

            Now, really try and equate the two in your mind. Now I know you aren't dumb, so you are willfully equating the two in order to be a good soldier. But what you are doing is immoral in and of itself. I implore you to leave the group you have joined, and to turn towards morals and justice. Question your assumptions, your racism, your hate, your identity.

            "In my opinion you're suggesting a breakdown of the nation state, we saw how peaceful the world was before the age of enlightenment." Excellent! A good start! Let's expand upon this. Write more about what you mean and think of when you wrote this.

            Last, as a former IDF soldier, you should see this group and think about joining:
            http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index.asp
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -2/+8"There is a fence all the way around Gaza. There is no infrastructure in Gaza. The Gazans have little access to funds and cannot use those funds outside, since they are not allowed to travel and nothing is allowed in. They are effectively in prison." - I seem to recall that Gaza is wedged between Israel and....Egypt. One would think that even if you were correct in your declaration, which you are not, since there are plenty of goods going in every day and some going out (see my post of yesterday elsewhere in this thread), the frontier with Egypt should be quite open for business. After all, Egyptians and Palestinians are brothers. What is that that you say? The Egyptians restrict the Palestinians as well? Oh. Surely apartheid. Genocide, even. No ? It's only when Israel does it?

            "UN sanctions, however, are targeted against a government, like in Iran" - gee, wasn't it another mantra of yours, something along the lines of Hamas being the democratically elected power in Gaza? Doesn't that make the blockade against Hamas, a blockade against the local government?

            "Governments have access to all sorts of other avenues, and can still take care of it's own people." - Hamas seems to have access to a lot of "avenues", given the constant firing of rockets. Those do not come from thin air. A proper government, as you say, would still take care of its own people. Hamas, instead, takes away their fuel and keeps jeopardizing their safety. That makes them a terrorist organization. Terrorists are to be combated, no? I guess the first step towards peace would happen once Hamas decided once and for all if they're a government or if they're terrorists. Do you disagree? Do you think they can continue this duplicitous game for as long as your romantic notions of underdogs and whatnot continue?
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -7/+2@foopirate

            See, the reason I dislike responding to you when you make a seemingly reasonable attempt to say something is you have, to me anyway, these blatant "hidden" agendas which are so obvious it makes me wonder if you understand how simplistic you seem.

            Everybody knows of the wishful plan to shove palestine off on the surrounding countries and keep Jerusalem all Israel. Sorry, there will either be a 2-state solution with Jerusalem split, or else a 1-state solution with Jerusalem whole and Palestinians being full citizens. Good try though. That method of stealing Jerusalem no worky-worky.

            It was before the infrastructure was destroyed and Hamas has no ability to get anything for anybody, and also since now Israel itself refuses to recognize Hamas, and will not speak with them under any circumstances. Also, Palestine is an OCCUPIED TERRITORY. UN Sanctions are not against occupied territories, ever, for absurdly obvious reasons. This is the second time just today I've seen this petulantly stupid comment. You can also look at what I said to yonoz somewhere else.

            Your third point is just too stupid to respond to.

            Let's go back to the empty smears, you gear-in-your-rear gay nazi *****, we're so much better that way.
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -1/+6"Mmm yes I've heard this canard of equating collective punishment with UN sanctions being thrown around. I'm happy to address it, even though I think you are sick to put it forward. Maybe this will help, but you should read the law on collective punishment for a better answer."
            Way to address my point. You don't even know what convention (no, it's not a law) covers collective punishment, do you?

            "Israeli is occupying (and illegally colonizing, which is really what all the delay tactics are about) Palestine. Occupying forces are required to provide for the innocent victims they are illegally occupying. There is a fence all the way around Gaza. There is no infrastructure in Gaza. The Gazans have little access to funds and cannot use those funds outside, since they are not allowed to travel and nothing is allowed in. They are effectively in prison. Collective punishment on these defenseless people directly starves them, etc."
            foopirata has shown you Israel cares for the people of Gaza even though it no longer occupies it. You have not addressed that.

            "UN sanctions, however, are targeted against a government, like in Iran. Governments have access to all sorts of other avenues, and can still take care of it's own people. It is an economic impact meant to pressure change from the bottom up. The people's health is never put into jeopardy, or their lives. It's a moral act. That's why the UN does these, but condemns what the gov. of Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So the UN would be another good place for you to get well written opinions regarding this issue."
            Another empty reply. The sanctions against Iran are certainly not limited to the government, the same as the sanctions against apartheid South Africa - and they weren't even attacking another nation!

            "Now, really try and equate the two in your mind. Now I know you aren't dumb, so you are willfully equating the two in order to be a good soldier. But what you are doing is immoral in and of itself. I implore you to leave the group you have joined, and to turn towards morals and justice. Question your assumptions, your racism, your hate, your identity."
            Naive and patronizing. I suggest you follow your own advice in that last sentence there.

            "Excellent! A good start! Let's expand upon this. Write more about what you mean and think of when you wrote this."
            Read up on The Social Contract, then you'll know exactly what I mean.

            "Last, as a former IDF soldier, you should see this group and think about joining:
            http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index.asp"
            Talk about letting go of your assumptions - not everyone who served in the IDF has something to confess.
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -1/+4'See, the reason I dislike responding to you when you make a seemingly reasonable attempt to say something is you have, to me anyway, these blatant "hidden" agendas' - just goes to show how much you don't understand what you read. To make it very clear to you, now and in the future, my "agenda" is two states for two people, in peace and prosperity for all, and fighting terror.

            "Everybody knows of the wishful plan to shove palestine off on the surrounding countries" - wow, _everybody_ ? Because Israel seems to have not gotten that memo.

            "keep Jerusalem all Israel" - if the Palestinians want East Jerusalem and want to call it Al Quds, Abu Dis or Arafat City they're welcome to it. As long as they don't use it to fire rockets at our part of it.

            "It was before the infrastructure was destroyed and Hamas has no ability to get anything for anybody" - what was ? The man on the moon? The 2004 World Cup ? You'll have to be more specific if you want to be understood.

            "Palestine is an OCCUPIED TERRITORY" - hm. No, it is not. There are no boots on the ground and Israel is not taking any responsibility for the day to day running of Gaza. You see, according to the Hague,

            Art. 42.
            Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
            The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

            Art. 43.
            The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country

            So, no, Gaza is not occupied. The West Bank is still under the division into areas as specified by the Oslo Accords of 1993, and there are areas (most of it actually) under full jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority-Fatah. So no, not occupied there as well.

            But my question to you, that you so 'easily' dodged, was, is Hamas a government or a terrorist organization? Is it or is it not the first step towards dialogue and peace for them to decide what they are and act accordingly? You seem to readily dismiss anything that you find too difficult to answer.

            "Let's go back to the empty smears, you gear-in-your-rear gay nazi *****, we're so much better that way." - I am afraid you'll have to wallow in the mud alone, if that's the level of conversation you aim to maintain. Also, you'll notice that I haven't smeared anything on your reputation that you haven't actually showed true with your own words. Go check.



          • neocognitism, on 02/27/2008, -6/+1These are good responses. I will give these the attention they deserve either late tonight or tomorrow. In the meantime I offer my condolences for Shomron.
        • urik88, on 02/25/2008, -4/+15What you see, is very twisted by the media.
          Sure, I admit it. There ARE crazy soldiers in the IDF. There ARE Israelis that join the army with the idea of killing Arabs (sadly). However, they are a VERY tiny minority.
          Soldiers don't kill kids that throw rocks. In fact, they use rubber bullets to suppress people attacking them.
          Then why there die so much palestinians, you must ask.
          The Hamas terrorists have a very evil method of using human shields.
          Here are some sources:
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6162494.stm
          Just look at the pictures:
          http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/Human ...

          Look at how the kids are in the street walking by with the terrorists. Why are the kids in the battlefield? Gaza is a big city. At least 4 km's width, and 4 km's wide. It's in fact bigger than Ashdod, the city with the biggest port of Israel (and the 6th bigger one if I'm not mistaken).
          So why in a city so big, the kids are there in the battlefield? If your house was raided or you heard that there are IDF soldiers coming, wouldn't you get your kids AS FAR as you can from the battlefield? Or at least don't let them go out?
          That's why there are so many civilian deaths. They are TEACH that being a human shield is a good thing. That they are helping fight the IDF.
          So I'm sorry for the kids and the human shields. But if a hamas militant is shooting at me, and I have to take the chance between killing him and maybe killing a kid, or him killing me, I'm sorry for the innocent civilians but I'm going to take the risk and shoot back.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -12/+3OMG, the IOF has been documented using human shields for well over a decade. In fact they signed some international agreement to stop the practice in the late 90's, only to begin doing it again. Completely incomparable to anything the Palestinians have done, although that is bad as well. Bad evidence, you idiot. How can you be ignorant of this? Who are you listening to? This has been reported in even the NYTimes for Heaven's sake, throughout the years! Oh, and by they, the IOF has used WOMEN and CHILDREN, and not even their OWN! They used PALESTINIAN women and children.

            In frequency and degree, the IOF is far and away the war criminal here.

            Stop relying on biased sources! You must understand that whatever database or list you're taking this from was made by someone who is deliberately leaving things off so you will draw the conclusions THEY want you to draw! Start to ask some questions: Why did they do this? Do I really agree with their aims? Are they possibly the extremists, and not everyone else? Am I actually betraying Israel, and America? Have I become an extremist whose views are not shared by a majority of the Israeli people? Think! Then you can change, and come back to a moral position and be a positive force for peace, instead of a force for war and hate. We will welcome you when you do!
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -9/+1Sorry chouch, I don't get high. Reported for illegal drug use!
          • urik88, on 02/26/2008, -1/+8As I said, there are crazy and bad soldiers in the IDF. But they are a minority.
            In EVERY army you are going to find people that will try to use a human shield or kill for the fun of it.
            Since when the actions of a few soldiers represent a whole army?
            Crap. The IDF actually calls the terrorists before bombing them to warn them because of the human shields. I doubt that any other army would do that.
            The medic soldiers treat in the field the palestinians that are wounded if the are able to.
            I seriously never heard about so much consideration for the enemy in any army of the world.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -8/+2Using human shields was a strategy. It was happening so much the international community made them sign something to say they'd never use it again.
            And if by "calling the terrorists" you mean calling a Hamas police station, or even a hospital, before they blow it apart, well, I guess you're right.
            And if you think the IOF is showing consideration, you're insane. Stop reading the racist hate sites.
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -2/+7You're referring to the "neighbour procedure" which was officially used until the supreme court ordered it cancelled. It has been used since without authorisation, and when that was brought out it was stopped again - yes, the IDF can be as disorganised as any other military, ask anyone who's served. The procedure worked so that when a wanted individual refuses to exit their house or allow the IDF (which has policing duties and rights in the territories under international law), a neighbour or relative (I've never seen a woman or child being used) is called to knock at the door accompanied by soldiers and talk the the person into surrendering. The procedure claimed one Palestinian's life during its use. Since its abolishment, the only alternative is to call them out using speakers, and in the case of no surrender the military uses force. This often leads to a violent confrontation and the death of the wanted individual (more Palestinian deaths).
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -6/+1Oh good you know about it, but if you knew about it, why did you answer before by saying it was a few bad apples? You went from tacitly condemning it, to tacitly supporting it as inevitable because of what the Palestinians were doing. What the hell? Blaming the atrocities of the illegal occupation on the victims themselves? Don't you see the underlying assumptions of what you are saying? And I agree that the IOF has the right to do policing, but the nightly incursions and invading innocent civilian's homes is not okay. Police are not the military, supposedly, they cannot invade a home for simple suspicion, they are supposed to be bound by a set of laws akin to my Bill of Rights. That is, unless you don't think those "cockroaches" [other's words] have any rights.

            And I am very glad you bring up international law. The thing about international law, like other law, is you can't pick and choose which is valid and which you follow. According to international law, the "blockade" of Gaza based on collective punishment is illegal and a war crime. I won't bring up that according to the 1948 Accords that the blockade arises to a definition of genocide.

            Oh, I wanted to bring this up with you. I hope you understand that I and others on here who agitate against blind zionism are humanitarians and patriots, and not haters. We want peace and no more killing and atrocities, and we also want to unhijack our political process from the grips of a foreign power. Our movement is growing as we spread awareness, and I would like to invite you to come be a part.

            You were/are a member of the IDF, right? Well there is a group of your compatriots that has realized how immoral some of the things they do are, and have been documenting what's going on. They've been traveling around my country and giving talks, and they have a website. I am sure they would appreciate the addition of another eloquent soldier's voice like yours. You should take a look at what they're doing and send them an email! Here is their website:

            http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index.asp

            Let your fellow former IDF soldiers know, so this movement of atonement can grow!
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -1/+4"Oh good you know about it, but if you knew about it, why did you answer before by saying it was a few bad apples? You went from tacitly condemning it, to tacitly supporting it as inevitable because of what the Palestinians were doing. What the hell? Blaming the atrocities of the illegal occupation on the victims themselves? Don't you see the underlying assumptions of what you are saying? And I agree that the IOF has the right to do policing, but the nightly incursions and invading innocent civilian's homes is not okay. Police are not the military, supposedly, they cannot invade a home for simple suspicion, they are supposed to be bound by a set of laws akin to my Bill of Rights. That is, unless you don't think those "cockroaches" [other's words] have any rights."
            Every single sentence in that paragraph is wrong, from the start when you confused me with someone else, through the empty claims of atrocities, and finally, the vastly ignorant comment about the Bill of Rights. The occupier has every right to conduct arrests, interrogations and house searches in occupied territories.

            "And I am very glad you bring up international law. The thing about international law, like other law, is you can't pick and choose which is valid and which you follow. According to international law, the "blockade" of Gaza based on collective punishment is illegal and a war crime. I won't bring up that according to the 1948 Accords that the blockade arises to a definition of genocide."
            Both of those statements are false, you've been asked to support them several times but have not complied. I also suggest you look up the definition of genocide, you use it very sparingly, and it's a word that shouldn't be overused.

            "Oh, I wanted to bring this up with you. I hope you understand that I and others on here who agitate against blind zionism are humanitarians and patriots, and not haters. We want peace and no more killing and atrocities, and we also want to unhijack our political process from the grips of a foreign power. Our movement is growing as we spread awareness, and I would like to invite you to come be a part."
            You're certainly not a humanitarian if you support the rocket fire on Israeli civilians. I want peace and no more killing and atrocities as much as anyone else - and I happen to think following your advice will only lead to more bloodshed. YOU are the one who sticks to their own interpretations of justice, morals and international law. You do not want peace as much as you want justice. Your justice isn't my justice, but it is much more costly.

            "You were/are a member of the IDF, right? Well there is a group of your compatriots that has realized how immoral some of the things they do are, and have been documenting what's going on. They've been traveling around my country and giving talks, and they have a website. I am sure they would appreciate the addition of another eloquent soldier's voice like yours. You should take a look at what they're doing and send them an email! Here is their website:

            http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index.asp"
            Thanks, but I have a clean conscience.

            "Let your fellow former IDF soldiers know, so this movement of atonement can grow!"
            Why, do you think they too committed "atrocities"?
      • urik88, on 02/25/2008, -2/+11To Knucklecallus (damn digg comments system)
        More sources:
        http://www.snappedshot.com/archives/1511-Perpetual ...
        http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/119 ...
        http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/896224.html
        http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1120/p01s02-wome.htm ...
        http://blog.technonllc.com/index.php?/archives/17- ...
        • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -12/+1OMG, the IOF has been documented using human shields for well over a decade. In fact they signed some international agreement to stop the practice in the late 90's, only to begin doing it again. Completely incomparable to anything the Palestinians have done, although that is bad as well. Bad evidence, you idiot. How can you be ignorant of this? Who are you listening to? This has been reported in even the NYTimes for Heaven's sake, throughout the years! Oh, and by they, the IOF has used WOMEN and CHILDREN, and not even their OWN! They used PALESTINIAN women and children.

          In frequency and degree, the IOF is far and away the war criminal here.

          Stop relying on biased sources! You must understand that whatever database or list you're taking this from was made by someone who is deliberately leaving things off so you will draw the conclusions THEY want you to draw! Start to ask some questions: Why did they do this? Do I really agree with their aims? Are they possibly the extremists, and not everyone else? Am I actually betraying Israel, and America? Have I become an extremist whose views are not shared by a majority of the Israeli people? Think! Then you can change, and come back to a moral position and be a positive force for peace, instead of a force for war and hate. We will welcome you when you do!
        • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -2/+7BTW neocognitism, you ask me to "come outside, get a different perspective" but you insist on calling the IDF "the IOF", refusing to acknowledge the actual material being presented (settling for simply claiming the source is biased, without giving further explanation), and calling anyone that confronts you with a perspective different than yours an extremist, so I'd like you to follow your own advice and try and step outside.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -6/+2You are an extremist. I am not. Your immoral position is not shared by a majority of the Israeli people. My humanitarian position is shared by a vast majority of the entire world. Even if you don't want to go with statistics, you can go with morals. Your position is immoral. My position is moral. Your position is pro-violence and mine is anti-violence. I could go on. Therefore, your position IS an extremist position, and mine simply is not, no matter how much that undeniable truth frustrates you, or how you try and spin it.

            And you wrongly project you and your troupe's strategy onto me, that strategy being the categorical denial or resistance to admitting of anything wrong whatsoever. I very much admit when I am wrong, my comments are full of examples. And there are people in your camp who I can actually have reasonable conversations with. But if you think that because I do not succumb to the planned conclusion of some purposefully misleading piece of evidence like urik88's, that I lack perspective, then you are either ignorant of how your troupe's propaganda strategy works, or else you are just daft. For instance in this specific instance, do you really think urik88 didn't know about the 15 year history of the IOF using human shields, compared to the few and recent pieces covering isolated Palestinians doing something similar? When I was taught how to write a paper, I learned to be careful to correctly represent the relative balance of events simply to preserve a sense of accuracy. So really, since you did know about this, it should have been YOU posting a reply and talking about the IOF, not me.

            The IOF is an occupation force, according to most countries and the UN. "IDF" is a misleading euphemism that is part of the whole immoral PR tactic of casting everything the government of Israel and the IOF does is a "response" and everything anyone else does is not. Why not call them the IHHPOF? That stands for the Israeli Happy Happy Palestinian Occupation Forces?

            Again, come step outside, and perhaps join some of your recently enlightened "IDF" brothers here:

            http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index.asp
          • yonoz, on 02/27/2008, -1/+4"You are an extremist. I am not."
            ...and you blame me of repeating an "it's not us, it's them" mantra.

            "Your immoral position is not shared by a majority of the Israeli people. My humanitarian position is shared by a vast majority of the entire world."
            You mean your own narrow world. May I remind you most of the people on this planet can only dream of your standard of living, they're too busy figuring out how to feed themselves to weigh these questions.
            BTW, I live in Israel, and to me it seems most Israelis have hawker views than mine. But perhaps that's because they haven't met the neocognitism the righteous yet.

            "Even if you don't want to go with statistics, you can go with morals. Your position is immoral. My position is moral. Your position is pro-violence and mine is anti-violence."
            You seem to believe you hold some monopoly on morals. Your position is much more pro-violence than mine - you support terrorism.

            "I could go on."
            So can I.

            "Therefore, your position IS an extremist position, and mine simply is not, no matter how much that undeniable truth frustrates you, or how you try and spin it."
            If my position is extreme, what about the positions of those who want to clear out the launch areas?

            "And you wrongly project you and your troupe's strategy onto me, that strategy being the categorical denial or resistance to admitting of anything wrong whatsoever. I very much admit when I am wrong, my comments are full of examples. And there are people in your camp who I can actually have reasonable conversations with. But if you think that because I do not succumb to the planned conclusion of some purposefully misleading piece of evidence like urik88's, that I lack perspective, then you are either ignorant of how your troupe's propaganda strategy works, or else you are just daft. For instance in this specific instance, do you really think urik88 didn't know about the 15 year history of the IOF using human shields, compared to the few and recent pieces covering isolated Palestinians doing something similar? When I was taught how to write a paper, I learned to be careful to correctly represent the relative balance of events simply to preserve a sense of accuracy. So really, since you did know about this, it should have been YOU posting a reply and talking about the IOF, not me."
            For the last time, I am not a part of any "camp" or "troupe". Is tribalism one of your superior "morals"?
            urik88 provided sources, he did not make false claims himself. He left it up to the reader to judge the sources. Your behaviour is the exact opposite - you provide no sources, your comments are all opinion - and unbased opinion at that.
            You're also doing a horrible job of preserving a sense of accuracy.

            "The IOF is an occupation force, according to most countries and the UN. "IDF" is a misleading euphemism that is part of the whole immoral PR tactic of casting everything the government of Israel and the IOF does is a "response" and everything anyone else does is not. Why not call them the IHHPOF? That stands for the Israeli Happy Happy Palestinian Occupation Forces?"
            You know, no-one is claiming the IDF is not an occupying force. It is the legitimacy of the occupation that is challenged, and that has nothing to do with the IDF. The Allies occupied Nazi Germany once - was that also "immoral"?
            It was named the IDF well before the territories were captured, and the name correctly states its main aim - to defend the State of Israel.

            BTW I'm happy you found a link you can post, we got the point.
    • 0ceanic, on 02/25/2008, -11/+7vitals monitors have battery backup so you can move patients around the hospitals, and hospitals have generators. the curtains were probably closed so they wouldnt get their location revealed by outside scenery. im not making a point. im just providing some info for discussion.
      • p0s3r, on 02/25/2008, -3/+14So you're suggesting that they need to keep the location of hospitals secret from the IDF because it's the IDF that deliberately targets civilians?
        • fgsfds, on 02/25/2008, -12/+1Well, that IS what the Palestinians keep claiming.
          If they act as if their claims are true, that would tend to suggest that they believe their own claims.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -5/+14@fgfds: The location of that hospital is well known. The only hostilities that occurred there were between Palestinian factions.
          • fgsfds, on 02/25/2008, -12/+1... which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
            What I *said* is that they CLAIM the IDF targets civilians and ACT like the IDF targets civilians, which suggests that they BELIEVE the IDF targets civilians.

            At no point did I state or imply that their beliefs were either baseless or justified.
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+12Even so, I highly doubt they believe that the IDF will go to all that trouble to strike at a maternity ward. Especially when it's Gaza's only hospital.
        • 0ceanic, on 02/26/2008, -3/+1the picture with the curtains clothed didnt look like it had anything to do with hospitals, but some sort of islamic-government meeting. the room with the monitors didnt seem to have curtains. i was citing two seperate things that were clearly labeled in the video, in two seperate sentences.

          so no. i was not suggesting that the big hospital with all the ambulances going in and out of it, was in a super secret location that was a potential target.
      • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -6/+13Israel has always provided more than enough electricity for Gaza's infrastructure. If that hospital had its power cut, it was deliberately done so by Gazans.
    • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -19/+16(Just to let you know, I talked to 12 palestinian students in the Gaza Strip via videochat last week. They saved gasoline for weeks to run the generator that would allow them to get on the internet) The Palestinians are angry because they feel that they have been abandoned and shunned, prevented from obtaining their own national identity. They were pushed out of their land and have been contained in a 6000 KM land area for over 50 years. Many of them still have their grandparent's deeds to their land that was illegally taken from them. Basically, the addition of religion has amplified the conflict. While the students told me that this conflict was more based upon the obtainment of their stolen land and pride, (they told me they had been humiliated) the base of the struggle is religious. The rockets are a retaliation to Israel's retaliations to other Palestinian retaliations. A direct question one of the students asked me was why "the American government immediately and always supports Israel and its aggressive policies in Palestine. Why do you think that happens? Why do American citizens generally support Israelis in this conflict?" But the main point that came across, repeatedly, was that the Palestinians want to be able to go to a University, they "just want to be treated like humans", they want their rights.

      The Palestinians grew weary of the continuous oppressive Zionist actions, and they are retaliating. You may not know it, but about 14 Palestinians die for every Israeli, while Israeli deaths are reported even more frequently than Palestinians. for every Israeli child that dies, 22 Palestinian children are killed.

      The blockade in Gaza is very real, and there may have been (temporary) emergency generators running during those protests. Most Palestinians and Israelis want to begin serious negotiations immediately, but there are radical Spoilers that prevent these negotiations from ever taking off. The Israeli government represents the orthodox Jews, while Hamas represents extremist opinion that actually is clearly not evident through the majority of the Palestinian people. By the way, Fatah is the secular party, but they were defeated in the elections in the Gaza strip. But anyways, yeah, this conflict is extremely complicated, and there are many misconceptions and assumptions surrounding the whole ordeal, but especially the Palestinian's case or point of view. I just wish people would become informed and use their brains and stop believing the ridiculous false hype surrounding the supposed terrorist organizations that are actually, to put it bluntly, frustrated freedom fighters with almost no options.
      • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -3/+21Just so you know I live in Israel and have served in the Gaza Strip, and have spoken with several times more Palestinians than your 12, in the flesh.
        The Palestinians you spoke to said this is based on, among other things, pride, and that they had been humiliated... Is that any reason to act violently? The settlers that Israel removed from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank also feel humiliated. There are people, Palestinians and Israeli, that have it far worse than "humiliated". They should let go of their pride if they ever want to live in peace. In any case, their pride will not be returned by violence, and if those students are Hamas supporters they are supporting violence.

        They "just want to be treated like humans" - very well, but what kind of humans? Is it the type of humans that try to kill the doctors that treat them? That fire rockets at the power plant that supplies their electricity?

        "The Palestinians grew weary of the continuous oppressive Zionist actions, and they are retaliating."
        If they choose to keep "retaliating" rather than move on and turn the Gaza Strip into a habitable place, then they should accept the cost of making that choice.

        "You may not know it, but about 14 Palestinians die for every Israeli, while Israeli deaths are reported even more frequently than Palestinians. for every Israeli child that dies, 22 Palestinian children are killed."
        Some human you are! Would you like to have an even sum of dead on both sides? There is a whole plethora of reasons why Israelis suffer less casualties. For once, we do not fire our weapons from schools. We do not send children and the mentally handicapped to test Palestinian responses. When we fought for our independence the children were always evacuated before harm came their way - there are too many Palestinians who are PROUD when their children are turned into "martyrs".

        "The blockade in Gaza is very real, and there may have been (temporary) emergency generators running during those protests."
        Either way, the source of the energy is Israel.

        "Most Palestinians and Israelis want to begin serious negotiations immediately, but there are radical Spoilers that prevent these negotiations from ever taking off."
        That depends on what you call serious negotiations. Serious negotiations to me means Hamas acknowledges even the possibility of Israel's existence. It also means refraining from deliberate attacks on civilians while the negotiations are under way. It seems that to them, negotiations are a way to gain their breath for the next round of violence.

        "The Israeli government represents the orthodox Jews, while Hamas represents extremist opinion that actually is clearly not evident through the majority of the Palestinian people."
        The Israeli government is most definitely secular and represents secular Israelis. There are 55 secular MKs in the coalition, against 12 orthodox. You said it yourself - Hamas were voted into parliament by the majority of Gazans. So much for their "clearly not evident" extremist opinion.

        "I just wish people would become informed and use their brains and stop believing the ridiculous false hype surrounding the supposed terrorist organizations that are actually, to put it bluntly, frustrated freedom fighters with almost no options."
        I'd rather be frustrated and out of options than cause senseless violence that leads to nothing but more violence. Having actually been in combats against your "freedom fighters", I can tell you I've acted on that preference more than once.

        There is absolutely no reason all of this should be going on, and there's a very simple way of stopping it - stopping rocket fire from the Gaza Strip (humiliation!).
        • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -15/+4I won't digg you down because you put forth a very elaborate and well written argument, but I will say this: the rocket fire ultimately is retaliation for Israeli retaliation. Both sides are restricted by spoilers. (I don't support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people.) I don't have your experience, but I do have what I can get. My usage of humiliate does not mean just hurt pride, but a feeling of hopelessness and despair over the conditions in which they live. Also, "Some human you are!" Personal insults have no place in a mature discussion. Have I stated that I am happy with the fact that more Palestinian children are killed than Israeli children? No. You do realize that this fact does include not just "martyred" children, but children killed by IDF soldiers or air-strikes. And as I stated in the very sentence that you quoted to argue against me, Most Palestinians want peace, but those SPOILERS get in the way. You base your argument on the fact that Hamas is a spoiler and preventing negotiations, and the assumption that Hamas represents Palestinian desire to destroy Israel. I just acknowledged that Hamas restricts peace in the very quote.

          "If they choose to keep "retaliating" rather than move on and turn the Gaza Strip into a habitable place, then they should accept the cost of making that choice."
          You have been to Gaza, you know what it looks like. They have been in that mushed rectangle for the past half century. Put yourself in your enemies shoes, for a moment. Pretend you have the same 'hatred' for the Israelis, the same hatred that you have now towards the Palestinians. If you were in that box, and negotiations never left the ground, and Israel was pushing you into the ground, forcing you to live in that concrete prison, deciding whether or not you would have electricity or even water one day or the next, the IDF casually rolling along the trash filled roads, Your neighbor's house lying in rubble because Israeli bulldozers came and demolished it without explanation and left 2 hours later. Imagine what emotions would be rampaging inside your 20 year old male brain while you sat at your stinking, broiling house, trapped, restricted, while your childhood friend's funeral proceeds without you in the West Bank because the Israeli Soldier, the only Israeli you ever encounter, indifferently dismissed your pleas to travel. What would you do? What would you think? Do you think reason would rule your brain, if all you had ever known was ***** filled streets and big, armored, impersonal tanks? Would you be angry if you knew that the very soldier that so casually dismissed your request will be out of the military and can leave Israel whenever he wants, and that he can sleep at night with only the minimal threat of a Qassam rocket hanging over your head, while you worry that tomorrow, you will not have water because the Zionists, in your mind, decided to shut off electricity to your neighborhood well. If your mother with typhoid cancer was provided even the smallest amount of treatment by a medically trained member of Hamas, while she was denied treatment in Israel, would you be grateful? You wouldn't necessarily be concerned with right and wrong. Hey, to you, an Israeli citizen is just an ignorant pig that languishes in the knowledge that the Haji has been conquered. Would you support a party that tried to save your mom, shares your youthful anger, and carries the same desire for personal liberty and freedom of movement? Now pull yourself back, and interpret. Humans, when put under certain conditions, may not share the same objectives or beliefs as you do. Desperation is mightily powerful...

          In response to your final statement, how can both sides trust each other to stop retaliating? Do you think that the Palestinians believe that the attacks into their territory will stop if they stop attacking? One could just as easily state that Israel should stop military operations. One may view the rockets as a retaliation, as you view your laser guided bombs and house demolitions as retaliation. Everything in an urban environment affects civilians.
        • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -15/+4>There is absolutely no reason all of this should be going on, and there's a very simple way of stopping it - stopping rocket fire from the Gaza Strip (humiliation!).

          But what is going on is a war crime, yonoz! Collective punishment is a war crime! And it is IMMORAL. You ended with the ever so familiar refrain "It's not us, it's them." That is what *children* say! Yet in this situation Israel is definitely the adult.

          You're an army man, you're used to the wisdom of the chain of command. Your former head of the Mossad has come out and said Israel MUST negotiate with Hamas, NOW! What do you know that can possibly contravene that man's experience and knowledge?
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -3/+16"the rocket fire ultimately is retaliation for Israeli retaliation."
          So how should the circle of violence be interrupted? Is it moral to ask Israel to supply Hamas while several rockets are landing daily near its kindergartens?
          Let Egypt supply them, the border is wide open. If it does not, let them smuggle real supplies through the tunnnels they currently use to smuggle weapons. Let them grow food in the fields left by the settlers. Once they stop firing from the other fields in the strip, their farmers won't have to fear Israeli bulldozers.

          "Both sides are restricted by spoilers. (I don't support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people.)"
          Very well. If you can support the Palestinians in spite of their support of terrorists, surely you can support Israelis in spite of their support of settlers.

          "My usage of humiliate does not mean just hurt pride, but a feeling of hopelessness and despair over the conditions in which they live."
          Even if Israel was entirely responsible for these conditions, it's no reason to attack civilians.

          "Also, "Some human you are!" Personal insults have no place in a mature discussion. Have I stated that I am happy with the fact that more Palestinian children are killed than Israeli children? No. You do realize that this fact does include not just "martyred" children, but children killed by IDF soldiers or air-strikes."
          I'd understand if you'd state the total number of deaths, but you chose to state the ratio, as if you were keeping the score of a sports match. There is nothing immoral in having superior intelligence, arms and organisation. If you have criticism of Israel's policy of use of force, state it directly and openly, do not insinuate we kill for the sake of killing.

          "You have been to Gaza, you know what it looks like. They have been in that mushed rectangle for the past half century."
          I've been to the strip in the last few years. My father's been to Gaza city in the 80's. My uncles have been to the strip since the 50's. It wasn't always like this, there wasn't even a fence once. Israelis used to shop there and Palestinians would work in Israel. During my time there were tens of thousands of Gazans crossing a the Erez crossing to work in Israel, and there was an industrial zone where more Palestinians and Israelis had factories and Israelis would go and do business there. IDF battle vests were sewn there by Palestinian women while their husbands put the armour plating on IDF vehicles. Then we left the strip, and rather then use everything the settlers left behind to feed and house their own people, Gazan militants divided it among themselves and turned the former settlements into training grounds. What a way to redeem yourselves.

          "Put yourself in your enemies shoes, for a moment. Pretend you have the same 'hatred' for the Israelis, the same hatred that you have now towards the Palestinians."
          I have no hatred for them. I pity them, for allowing themselves to be used as pawns on a chessboard by the "crusade" fighting state de jure. Yesterday it was Egypt, today it's Iran and Syria.
          And BTW, we've been in their shoes 60 years ago:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season
          http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3382779, ...
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair

          "If you were in that box, and negotiations never left the ground, and Israel was pushing you into the ground, forcing you to live in that concrete prison, deciding whether or not you would have electricity or even water one day or the next, the IDF casually rolling along the trash filled roads, Your neighbor's house lying in rubble because Israeli bulldozers came and demolished it without explanation and left 2 hours later..."
          You've consumed too much propaganda; I don't know where to begin debunking all this nonsense, so I'll simply suggest you read up on how Palestinian refugees were treated in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon by their Arab brothers. All this is irrelevant anyway because it does not lead anywhere. So there's your answer: if I were in that situation, I'd realisticly think how I can get out of it. I would certainly not go and blow myself up or fire rockets at the other side's towns. If I did, I certainly understand why the other side would kill me before I can carry that out.

          "In response to your final statement, how can both sides trust each other to stop retaliating? Do you think that the Palestinians believe that the attacks into their territory will stop if they stop attacking? One could just as easily state that Israel should stop military operations. One may view the rockets as a retaliation, as you view your laser guided bombs and house demolitions as retaliation. Everything in an urban environment affects civilians."
          You're stating this as if Israel is firing blindly whenever a rocket gets launched, it doesn't work that way. I think the Palestinians remember what it was like in Gaza before the violence started, I think they remember the long period after the pullout when Israel restrained from doing anything but the rockets didn't stop. If they don't, that's tragic but it changes nothing as far as Israel is concerned. The government is under pressure to do more than it's doing now, I reckon within the next 6 months we'll see the IDF enter the strip en force.
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -14/+2I have one thing to say to this. If you really have spoken with that many Palestinians, and you are still spewing forth this same hate and misinformation, you must have a black heart. I think you can turn it around though. Turn towards peace and start advocating for that. Become a moral person, instead of what you are doing now, which is just so sad.

            Seriously, start talking to your friends tomorrow and start pushing for peace negotiations! Stop saying the childish thing about the rockets, because you know Israel is still making nightly incursions into Gaza, and understand that as an adult, you can only change yourself. More broadly, that means you can only really influence how the government of Israel acts. So do that! Become a proud citizen, and join the majority of Israeli's who want peace now, without blaming it all on somebody else!

            I know you can do it! Tell these friends of yours too! THEN you'll be a true patriot, and the hate and racism you hold in your heart will slowly fade away.
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+13What possible qualifications can you have that made you feel you can judge me, besides a deeply instilled sense of justice and too much spare time? I don't jump to conclusions regarding your nature despite our disagreements. If you are such a broad-minded humanitarian, how come you fail to keep the peace on a trivial internet discussion?
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -12/+2Qualifications? What are you talking about? Nobody needs qualifications to comment on digg and say anything they damn well please. They let all of your hateful troupe speak freely, don't they? But if you're asking specifically, I do know a good deal of psychology, and I'm quite good at looking through people's words to their underlying intent and assumptions. Add into that the fact I am an ethical and moral person, with eyes unclouded by hate, bigotry, blind loyalty, or team mentality, and I would say I'm pretty well ***** qualified to say what I just said to you. It's true, isn't it? And if I bite, it's because I'm used to being bitten every time one of your troupe posts to me. If you dislike it, talk amongst your friends and push for a general lowering of the false rhetoric and pointlessly aggressive and denigrating language. A lot of us would really really appreciate that.
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -1/+6You can say post whatever you like but I suggest you practice a little more humility if you want others to take you seriously. Also, consider the possibility that the "intent and assumptions" you're seeing are all in your mind. Since you claim to know a good deal of psychology, how did you discount the possibility you're simply projecting your own internal conflicts?
            "nonreservist coward", "foobutt", "***** off", "you're insane" - seems you can be just as hateful as the "troupe" to which you're referring (is it so incomprehensible to you that several non-related individuals will share similar ideas and notions?).

            And BTW, if Israelis bite, it's because we're used to being bitten every time someone in the rest of the world needs to exorcise their own demons.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -6/+2Some of my rhetoric with some of your troupe is at a much lower level, because I grew tired of trying, only to get back petulant 10-year-old. A LOT of people feel the same way I do about these guys. I don't respond to you that way, because you don't respond to me that way. That's why I asked you to talk with them. Everybody would be a lot happier if you could talk some sense into them.

            I reread what I wrote and I don't disagree with it, nor do I think I wrote it overly arrogantly, but I didn't mean to seem like a blowhard. If it came off like that, I apologize.
      • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+14"But what is going on is a war crime, yonoz! Collective punishment is a war crime! And it is IMMORAL."
        First, it is not a war crime, say what you like about the government, they're not stupid. We don't have Milosevics here. A state can not be expected to supply the needs of a hostile entity, even if no one else is willing to do so. Hamas choose to cynically perpetuate their people's suffering, we can't be expected to play along.
        Another thing: all you people echoing these empty cliches of "international law", get a book or two about European history. There are a few age of enlightenment concepts the Palestinians have yet to grasp that predate all these 20th century conventions on warfare. Expecting a state to do nothing to prevent such attacks on its citizens - moreover, to SUPPLY the very people that commit these attacks - undermines the very concept of the nation state that was established for the exact reason of protecting civilian populations from religious and ethnic strife, and therefor the very concepts you seek to uphold.

        "You ended with the ever so familiar refrain "It's not us, it's them." That is what *children* say! Yet in this situation Israel is definitely the adult."
        Stop oversimplifying and attributing personal attributes to entire states. What has Israel done after the unilateral disengagement that warranted these rocket attacks?

        "You're an army man, you're used to the wisdom of the chain of command. Your former head of the Mossad has come out and said Israel MUST negotiate with Hamas, NOW! What do you know that can possibly contravene that man's experience and knowledge?"
        You're very naive: there is nothing wise about the chain of command just as there is nothing moral about conventions of warfare. The chain of command is simply a trivial way of organising the military. Conventions on warfare simply reflect the interests of their creators, usually maintaining some status quo.
        • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -12/+3Once again, you have said the following far too familiar refrain:

          "It's not us, it's THEM"

          And then you also do the familiar comingling of collective punishment with responding to a rocket attack.
          Sorry, but in NYC, if there are a string of bank robberies, they don't lock down the whole city and cut power, etc.
          If they did it would be a crime, and in the case in Palestine, is very much IS a war crime. Your country will be prosecuted for it as well.

          Again, your former head of the Mossad says Israel must negotiate with Hamas. Why do you and your extremist friends here keep standing in the way of that? Why do ou hate Israel so much?
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+13As far as Hamas is concerned, it really is a case of "it's not us, it's them". They deliberately attack civilians, period. They refuse to acknowledge the possibility of coexistence with Israel, period. These are basic premises that must be upheld to be able to go into negotiations, otherwise you're delaying and maximizing a future confrontation.
          In NYC you did not have over 400 rockets fired at you this year alone. When you're ready to support your argument regarding war crimes, go right ahead. Repeating it over and over again isn't really getting us anywhere. You're no oracle either, so avoid making baseless prophecies.
          The former head of the mossad said something, good for him. What's even better for him is that he is the FORMER head of the mossad, and not the CURRENT prime minister of Israel. If he was, he'd know the minute he negotiated with Hamas, his coalition would fall apart.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -11/+2You just won't listen to a single sensible thing said to you yonoz. You are locked into this childish "It's not us, it's them" mantra. Why should anyone take you seriously? Really, if the current government of Israel did something tomorrow, no matter what it was, you would defend it tooth and nail and not admit any problem whatsoever. That's called a spokesperson if we were talking about Pepsi. But we're talking about war crimes and millions of defenseless people in a concentration camp. That then makes you an extremist.

            Someday you need to see that it's okay to think for yourself, and that it's possible to return to being a moral person. It must be hard though, knowing that a majority of Israelis don't even agree with you. Seriously, you just come here to push a line of propaganda, because you yourself are not subject to any kind of sensible argument whatsoever. And when you respond with "well there hasn't been one," then I challenge you to think about what argument that would have to be. Does such an argument exist? What are the implied consequences of such an argument? You can prove to yourself that you are an extremist this way.

            At least I haven't seen you say anything antigentilic and antisemitic, like so many of your peers.

            Just stop talking like you represent Israel, at least? Would you do that for us?
          • yonoz, on 02/26/2008, -0/+6"Really, if the current government of Israel did something tomorrow, no matter what it was, you would defend it tooth and nail and not admit any problem whatsoever."
            Shows how well you "can see through my words to their underlying intent and assumption"... You claim to know so much about Israelis, but you're quite clueless really.
            Unlike you, I'm a realist, and a broad-minded realist at that. The worst thing you can say about me is that I'm broad-minded to the point of relativism.

            "But we're talking about war crimes and millions of defenseless people in a concentration camp. That then makes you an extremist."
            What do you know about war? What do you know about concentration camps? Extremism, you do know - intimately.

            I believe you've already established to anyone who bothered to read your comments how hypocritical they are, I don't really have to keep pointing it out.

            BTW, I represent myself, Dr. Phil.
    • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -15/+9For the record, the Palestinians are not "exaggerating." There are 1.5 million people living in squalid conditions in the most cramped area of the planet. They are freezing, starving, without medical care, and without power now. They have no jobs, and are immobilized by ~1000 checkpoints throughout the territory that has not yet been stolen from them. Their lands are also cut by settlements, who continually harass them whle Israeli militants with guns let it happen. Oh, and the streets flow with *****. They lack any kind of infrastructure, that having been destroyed by the IOF a number of years ago. Many of these acts constitute collective punishment, which is a WAR CRIME. Keep that in your mind even if you are ridiculous enough to even care IF this video was somehow true. The Israeli Government is GUILTY of WAR CRIMES against these people, and according to the 1948 accords are committing GENOCIDE. GENOCIDE!!!

      This video was made by some seriously sick individuals who are extremists. They do not reflect the majority of Israeli opinion, and they continually poison public opinion here to keep pushing for war and killing. They are traitors to Amerca, and traitors to Israel, and their time having any sway over anything is slowly coming to an end.

      I pray that you do not fall prey to their embracing of Schadenfreude. It is all they know. They are consumed by racism and hatred for Arabs, and all that guides them is a misplaced sense of extreme nationalism. Don't let yourself be pulled in.
      • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -14/+8Thanks! I am glad to see someone with an informed view taking the time to post.
      • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -13/+5Also, wtf at the fact that Neocognitism's comment has only 3 diggs while mine has 5... apparently, people disapprove of his opinion but are glad that I thanked him for posting his opinion that originally wasn't accepted.
        • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -13/+6The extremist Israeli nationalists who submitted this and got it to the front page HATE me for calling their bluff over and over. They are organized and they have shill accounts, where they just go through and digg down everyone they don't like. They'd be digging you down too, but they don't recognize you and don't take the time to scan your article. Don't worry, it'll happen, and soon it will be morning in Israel and all the extremists from over THERE will come over here to snuff the truth.

          Pretty sociopathic, huh? Hard to believe, I know. Doesn't make me want to stop of violate the Terms of Service like they do, though.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -3/+13neocognitism, are you claiming to be Israeli?!
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -11/+3If I'm Israel, and Stephen Colbert is America, then who the hell is New Guinea?
      • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -3/+17GENOCIDE. GENOCIDE! GENOCIDE!!! GENOOOOOOCCCCCIIIIIIIDDDDDDDEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        Well I'll be damned - repeating a lie doesn't make it true.
        • foopirata, on 02/25/2008, -3/+15Unless, of course, you live in an echo chamber, like some of our interlocutors...
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -13/+3Um, sir? We need you back in the rear with the gear. Oh wait you're not even a reservist. Sorry, continue on with your nonsensical messages.
          • foopirata, on 02/25/2008, -3/+13Haha, cute. The prince of lies and non-sense projecting.
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -13/+3no hyphen in nonsense, non-reservist coward devil satan lucifer antigentilic antisemite
          • foopirata, on 02/25/2008, -2/+9Already that desperate?
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -11/+2Yeah, but not desperate enough to take a cowardly non-reservist ugly chick like you to the prom.
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -2/+10Oh my gawd oh my gawd I am so ashamed, he called me a girl, I am so ashamed, he questioned my army service, what to do, what to do, I guess I can only go away and kill myself, he is questioning my masculinity and my past in the same sentence, panic, panic, oh the horror.
            Seriously - get a grip. Your comments simply draw attention to how hollow you are, they speak more about you than me.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -11/+2Yes, I am hollow like the tin man. If I only had a heart! See, isn't this is a more appropriate level for us to stay at, foobutt?
          • foopirata, on 02/26/2008, -2/+9You just keep waddling in the mud, piggie. You're the one making a spectacle of yourself.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -9/+2Oh I am? How am I doing that, foobutt?
      • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -11/+3@yonoz

        That's true, but repeating a truth, like I was, doesn't make it untrue. Ever.
        It's funny how you guys act like a career criminal on trial, denying everything, reflecting everything. You make your country look great.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+13I suppose you're the judge.
          Or better yet, the prosecutor, working pro-bono.
          Of course, a real prosecutor supports his case.
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -11/+2I rest my case. I find yonoz, the defendant, guilty as charged! Bailiff! Remove the prisoner! What? He's fled to Israel? Not again, that's got to be the 1000th criminal to have escaped by cowardly running to this one particular foreign country that for some reason would shelter him and others who claim to be something they could care less about. Oh well, if he ever comes back, we'll find him then, and finally justice shall be served!
    • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -13/+5Arafat embezzled. That doesn't mean that it is "manipulating the media" to show the poverty and misery directly caused by Israeli apartheid. It is not exaggeration, it is an injustice and an outrage. As for media bias - I live in the US and I find it hard to believe that anyone would claim that the media is biased toward any side other than Israel's here.
      • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -12/+7I think a "bias" to Israel is an understatement.

        How about whole hearted embrace?
      • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -4/+15Well I live in Israel, I consume international media, and I can tell you there's a bias AGAINST Israel. I'm sorry that doesn't fit in with your wishes.
        • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -13/+4I'm sure that gives you an especially objective point of view. But yeah. Way to gloss over the actual point.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+12Do you believe there is such a thing as an objective point of view? Do people become journalists to be objective?
          BTW, nice straw men.
        • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -12/+3You're just wrong, yonoz.

          Every single major newspaper in our country is far more favorable to Israel compared to Haaretz, for instance.
          It's all been documented, it's tilted towards Israel by far. And of COURSE it is, given the relationship. If it was the opposite, a very large number of people all across the country would lose their jobs in a heartbeat.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+11Obviously, it's been documented. We are talking about print media after all.
          All puns aside, how can you "document" such a thing? I had a look at some links someone posted here - and it was clearly much more "tilted" than the media itself.
          • neocognitism, on 02/25/2008, -11/+3There are a variety of outlets that document these things. You have the google power just like I do. Normally I would provide references on my time, but you all have descended on this story bearing the most offensively wrong and biased positions that you remove a lot of the incentive to treat you like you're serious.

            Just look at the NYTimes, for Pete's sake! Just the choice of language they employ is biased heavily towards Israel. This isn't new news, and I'm sure you've seen all this before, so why do I bother?
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+11You say tomayto, I say tomahto.
            heh, it works even better when you type it.
            "Outlets" as in people with a bigger agenda than the actual journalist.
            Give us a study, we'll take it apart. Bring it on.
          • neocognitism, on 02/26/2008, -10/+2What I think would be more humorous would be to hear how you think the NYTimes is slanted towards the Palestinians. I'll even take anecdotes. Please do that first?

            Here's some of what you asked for, in the meantime. Go to mediamatters.com and search on "Israel." 373 entries should give you something to think about. I look forward to hearing "they're all wrong/biased" from you.
  • 14Him, on 02/25/2008, -10/+46Any news agency that would intentionally deceive is no news agency. They are overpaid tabloids that also need to be pulled out of there dark hole and exposed to the light.
  • urik88, on 02/25/2008, -8/+46Sadly, staged media isn't an uncommon thing.
  • p0s3r, on 02/25/2008, -46/+33Not long before the Jew Hating Liberal Brigade here on digg somes in and blames Israel for the Pallie propaganda.
    • carterbaldwin, on 02/25/2008, -6/+32"Jew Hating Liberal Brigade"? I hope they don't team up with the FemiNazis, or the free world is doomed!
    • makkaveli19, on 02/25/2008, -7/+23god poser, you condemn any criticizer of israel to be anti-sematic. i've read your posts before and it seems that you are a "anti-arab neo-con" with a high level of hypocrisy.
      • antiorblkflag9, on 02/25/2008, -4/+8I'm Jewish (kinda, raised Jewish, don't practice, mostly Athiest) but I run into personal conflicts all the time with the situation in the Middle East. I agree with you makkaveli, I sometimes criticize Israel myself, but at the same time I also criticize the Palestinians. With the current problems, I think everyone is to blame.
        • makkaveli19, on 02/25/2008, -3/+5hey i'm muslim ( kinda, the same as you) and i think that palestinians are being the bigger dick in the whole conflict. i used to side with them before the bombings, but now there is nothing to defend. especially now that hamas was elected. i just need to point out trolls :)
    • davidprost, on 02/25/2008, -4/+0somes in?
  • ManoWar, on 02/25/2008, -25/+24Keep Brainwashing your children let them take on the burden of your sickness Palestinian!!!
    Sad time ahead.
    • CheapDigWannbe, on 02/25/2008, -7/+7Keep Brainwashing your children let them take on the burden of your sickness Israeli!!!
      Sad times before and ahead.

      See what I did there? Yeah that's what it's all about, two sides shouting and shooting at one another with exactly same *****. It's their fault, they need to accept/change does not work. Did not work and will not work.
      • foopirata, on 02/25/2008, -1/+4Now, I'd like to offer you the parallel of two mothers:

        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTI ...
        Mariam Farhat's interview, which aired Dec. 21 on Egypt's Dream2 TV, can be seen here, with a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute.Farhat, also known as Umm Nidal, said her only fear is that her sons would choose a path that would not please Allah.
        In the TV interview, Farhat said she prepared all of her sons "for jihad for the sake of Allah, whether by carrying out an attack, or by any other form of jihad. I prepared myself for this. He who chooses a difficult road must be ready to bear the consequences.""Some people may consider this a tragedy, but by Allah, it is a blessing," she said.

        And another one:

        "The analogy between the two teenage girls led the mother of the Israeli victim to try and understand what led the bomber to commit the murderous act. Through the personal stories of the two families' losses, the film explores their mutual pain, despite differences in cultural and religious beliefs, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and ultimately the hope for peace."
        http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-33 ...

        Now I'll leave you to contemplate the hollowness of your comment.
  • yellowcakewalk, on 02/25/2008, -39/+34Could just as easily be Israeli propaganda designed to make the Palestinians look bad. But let's assume that Hamas did this heinous crime of photoshopping an image. Compare that with the Israelis dropping a million clusterbombs on southern Lebanon in summer 2006. Photoshopped image -vs- clusterbombing children.

    I'll be posting some images of children blown to bits by Israeli arial bombing here in a minute ... stay tuned. You can examine each one for signs of photoshopping.
    • Chromium24, on 02/25/2008, -26/+29And the aforementioned Jew Haters have arrived. Total time: 1 hour, 24 minutes.
      • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -19/+14Yeah, t3h jooz should be allowed to cluster bomb whomever they like without any accountability - anything less would be antisemitism. The fact that you are dugg up should indicate which "brigade" has promoted this article.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -4/+10Israel should be just as accountable for its actions as the US, Russia, China, Syria, Turkey, Iran, and every other country.
          Your obsession with Israel is a sign there's something that really bothers you about the Jewish state. I'm Israeli, what's your excuse?
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -7/+3I'm Palestinian. Maybe it comes as a shock to you that we figured out how to use the internets - what's your excuse for that?
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -8/+3By the way, what a *****' dichotomy! You may have to accept that I can complain about being the victim of apartheid, but God forbid anyone else take my side or he will be a racist for singling out Israeli injustice when they should be working on Chinese and Turkish injustice! It's amazing how Zionists manage to retain the victim card even when they are the ones brutalizing someone else.
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+5Well that explains your hatred. So, where in the occupied territories are you from?
            BTW, what *****' dichotomy are you ranting about? And cease with the strawmen already, you're taking the discussion apart; it's an occupation, not an apartheid. Your comments demonstrate well who here thinks in terms of race.
        • jamesotis, on 02/25/2008, -1/+4I don't think you can claim that alleged Israeli injustices suffer from being ignored by the media. They ARE distinguishable from the injustices of the other countries you've mentioned in that they're largely bogus.
      • xerosawyer, on 02/25/2008, -10/+11Criticizing Israel isn't anti-semitic..
        • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -14/+7Yes, it would be Anti-Zionistic

          To ignorant Jews its one in the same. Might I point out that a good portion of the Jewish population are Anti-Zionists
          • foopirata, on 02/25/2008, -0/+5"good portion" ? I'd love to see your source for that.
        • fgsfds, on 02/25/2008, -6/+2Criticizing Israel doesn't make you anti-Zionistic any more than criticizing America makes you anti-American. After all, many times the most helpful thing you can do is criticize.
          Currently, this conflict is harmful to everybody. If you've ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma, then you know the problem. As long as people are acting only to aid their favored faction and unwilling to acknowledge their own side's crimes, the partisan hatred will simply get worse.
          By supporting Israel, you are killing Israeli children.
          By supporting Palestine, you are killing Palestinian children.
          • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -8/+3Might I point out that disagreeing with the idea of pushing out the Arabs and making a purely Jewish homeland makes you Anti-Zionistic.

            Read up on your Zionism history my friend.

            The first president of Israel, Chaim Weizzman notes in his autobiography he was not happy with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 because it included a clause that said they could not disturb the local Arab population. Now why do you think that would bother him?
          • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -3/+9False.
            Read up on your Zionism history, bigot. Try Herzl's Alteneuland.
    • lajaw, on 02/25/2008, -28/+25Too bad there is no such creature as a "Palestinian". Those that want to be known as Palestinians are merely Arabs that have no country. There has never been a Palestine, and Lord willing, there never will be. Let them assimilate back to Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and Syria where they came from. Otherwise, let them live under Israeli rule.
      • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -18/+9Wrong.
        • DWalla, on 02/25/2008, -6/+14Prove it or shut it.
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -8/+4I am living proof. My family is not from Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or Jordan. This is propagandistic denial of the facts with insidious intent - much like Holocaust denial.
          • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -7/+4+1 on that, Palestinian heritage right here. Don't you dare call me Lebanese.
        • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -7/+5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

          I do believe that was the sound of Wikipedia pwning you.

          And before you say it was never a true soverign nation, may I point out I am a "New Yorker" but there never was a country called "New York".
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -7/+3O noez, pwnt by wikipedia! Even though wikipedia is not much use for anything controversial, in this case the article itself does not deny the existence of the Palestinian people, and indeed links to other articles that reference us.

            Consider yourself pwnt by reading comprehension.
          • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -6/+6If there is a "Palestine" that means its residents are "Palestinian". Simple logic, really.
          • dinostabOMG, on 02/25/2008, -6/+3Al - I misunderstood your point. What I said still stands, but to be fair you did reply to the wrong comment!
          • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -4/+2Stupid Digg comments... its hard to figure out what you are repyling to when you are trying to defend ones heritage.
          • jamesotis, on 02/26/2008, -1/+3Palestinian -- is that anything like a Klingon? Oh that's right -- the Kilingons have their own language and distinct culture, don't they? They've also presumably had their own country (if not their own planet), and weren't a bogus nationality invented in the Kremlin by Breznev and Arafat for the purpose of displacing Israel (they were invented in Los Angeles by Gene Roddenberry however -- but at least he wasn't a terrorist). Incidentally, the Klingons are older than the "Palestinians."
      • dandatrk, on 02/25/2008, -8/+5and you must be our resident Zionist, let me tell you that until after WW2 there was no Israel, it was either under the control of Britain, the Ottomans or Arab empires, never under any jewish control untill the world started feeling sorry for the jews after WW2.
      • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -4/+2Ask a 'Palestinian' living in the west bank or the gaza strip if they share your opinion. Better yet, ask a 'Palestinian' refugee that was forced out of their homeland if they also agree that there is no such thing as the Palestinian Identity. Really, I am sure they will agree!
      • smartass007, on 02/25/2008, -6/+3Hey everybody! Let's all go back to the land of our ancestors from thousands of years ago and start a country! If there's anyone there, we'll just kill them or marginalize their land and identity claims!
        • Knucklecallus, on 02/25/2008, -3/+4Oh man, you live up to your name perfectly. But in a good way.
        • yonoz, on 02/25/2008, -2/+3Good to see you state your opinion of "good" Knucklecallus. For a minute there I actually believed you approached this with some sort of attempt at objectivity.
    • urik88, on 02/25/2008, -14/+23Maybe the Hezbollah soldiers shouldn't have launched missiles from the roof tops of Beirut.
      What do you think that the US would do if suddenly Canada started firing rockets from their very own cities?
      There isn't any other choice than to bomb the building.
      In wars, normal people try to fight as far as they can from their city. Because if they fight in the city, the city is going to be destroyed.
      • JStraum, on 02/25/2008, -11/+3And what do you think the Native American Indians would be doing right about now if we had built a fence around them instead?
        • urik88, on 02/25/2008, -2/+10Am I missing something? Since when Israel has a fence around Lebanon?
        • superal1394, on 02/25/2008, -7/+3Might I point out Lebanon was invaded by Israel, and the Lebanese government failed to drive them out, so the people took over.

          What if Canada drove into the US and the US military never showed up? I'd get myself a gun and start shooting some Canadians. The Lebanese did no different.
          • urik88, on 02/25/2008, -0/+5Israel invaded Lebanon after Lebanon abducted some soldiers and started firing missiles