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186 Comments
- DirtyVicar, on 06/30/2009, -8/+76Finally we're supporting the troops.
- DaDrake, on 06/30/2009, -3/+65Wouldn't that be a good thing? They are taking more control over their country... which is a sign of independence (and a reason for celebration) in itself. The gesture isn't necessary anti-American and likely has numerous meanings for the Iraqis.
- superkendall, on 06/30/2009, -9/+39Good luck Iraq, hopefully you have learned what you need from us to stand against those who wish to tear you apart.
- Nairebis, on 06/30/2009, -8/+32And Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and imprisoned 18,000 confederate sympathizers without trial. What's your point?
History weighs heavily on the ends, rather than the means. Whether Bush is judged as a failure or not heavily depends on what the middle east looks like in 20 years.
Got news for you: many Presidents who are judged as great Presidents now were considered "idiots" in their own day. - visionaryIX, on 06/30/2009, -5/+24By putting them in a more dangerous war in Afghanistan?
/just saying - bugsy187, on 06/30/2009, -7/+25Well, Saddam had nothing to with 9/11, there weren't any WMDs, the country is in shambles, and something like a million Iraqis are dead. There was Abu Ghraib and the use of depleted uranium shells that continues to cause birth defects in newborn children. The only positive result was the removal of Saddam Hussein... a leader the CIA helped put in power in the first place.
They're happy to see a foreign, occupying army leave their country. How would you feel? - m3arvk, on 06/30/2009, -6/+22Didn't _we_ tear them apart?
Hundreds of thousands dead, destroyed infrastructure, loss of real sovereignty, potential puppet governments, military bases, pawns of international corporations. - WiretapStudios, on 06/30/2009, -0/+16I don't know if it's going to be bigger in tomorrows newspaper, but I have barely heard a blip about this, and I actually had to dig for it when I looked for it on some major news sites. It wasn't even a headline. Is this not big news?
- inactive, on 06/30/2009, -4/+20[quote from article]
"We are now celebrating the restoration of sovereignty."
Iraq's American Independence Day, June 29th, 2009. Get out the chinese fireworks. - redline6800, on 06/30/2009, -16/+30You forgot the most important part of that statement "/sarcasm".
- shdwfx, on 06/30/2009, -25/+38Bush will be remembered as one of the greatest idiots to ever reside in the White House. Have you been paying any attention over the last 8 years at all?!
- trendygamer, on 06/30/2009, -12/+24Someone commented above as if they were amazed good news was coming from Iraq. If good news from Iraq surprises you, you haven't been paying attention for the past two and a half years.
Whatever one can say about the Bush administration's management of the war (and there are plenty of criticisms to levy), the surge worked. End of story.
Now here's hoping Iraq will remain a stable and secure democracy, one that will remember the thousands of foreigners who never came back from the fight to win the country. - jdubu37, on 06/30/2009, -2/+14this is a good thing right? a positive..from iraq?
- m3arvk, on 06/30/2009, -0/+12It's not our job to overthrow every government in the world because it isn't ideal. This isn't a partisan issue. It isn't up for debate because it does not reside in the realm of speculation. We simply don't do it. Are you so stupid that you must equate my criticism of this war with me hating my country? Do you realize how brainwashed you are if you believe that?
The simple fact regarding the war is that Bush lied and people died. Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and had been cooperating with UN weapon inspectors for some years. But Saddam killed his own people! He's a ruthless dictator. He invaded Kuwait. What a bunch of drivel. Do you realize that through this war that Bush is actually responsible for killing more Iraqis than Saddam?
What have we achieved in this "victory" of yours? Our national debt is skyrocketing out of control, our economy is in terrible shape, we haven't destroyed Al Qaeda, we haven't caught Bin Laden, we haven't won the war on terror, we've lost our moral high ground by torturing detainees, we've denied people their constitutional rights, committed illegal wiretapping, our own freedoms are constantly being curtailed, etc.
The best you can say is that _hopefully_ in a decade or two that Iraq will be a functioning democracy and that it won't be a puppet of the US. Sorry but all the main reasons we invaded Iraq are still there. So, factually, we have failed. - robertisaar, on 06/30/2009, -17/+28/s
- zunipus, on 06/30/2009, -7/+17Who can blame them:
1) The British create Iraq at the start of the 20th century, smashing together Kurds, Muslim Sunni and Shiites, who all hate each other, and expect it to work.
2) Mid-20th century the USA completes its thorough f*cking over of the country by inserting Sadam Insane as its leader, leader in mass murder that is.
3) The USA supports Sadam Insane's campaign to f*ck over Iran because Iran kidnapped some US citizens and other nasty stuff in retaliation for the US having already f*cked them over for decades, including the US insertion of the last Shah of Iran.
4) Sadam Insane uses the ordinance the USA gave him to take over Kuwait. Darn, the USA doesn't like that and turns against Iraq.
5) A cult gang 'think tank' of utter morons called the Project for the New American Century invents the Iraq war in 1997 and publishes their manifesto in 1998. By 2000 this cult of crazies has inserted the Bush League into the US White House, consisting mostly of PNAC members and friends.
6) Conveniently the 9/11 happens with the apparent help of some 3rd party in bringing down the towers. Who could that third party be?!
7) The day after 9/11 the PNAC scum in the White House start planning their overthrow of Iraq. Who cares about the Taliban in Afghanistan who supported Al Queda?
8) After blatant lies in the highest of US offices, the Iraq war commences. But darn, there's no strategy for what to do after the 'Shock And Awe' is over. Chaos ensues. Hmm. Awfully convenient as well!
9) The US builds the single largest base outside the USA within Iraq. Didn't see that coming. KIDDING!
10) Wash and rinse, wash and rinse, wash and rinse, wash and rinse until Iraq is thoroughly tumbled into acquiescence.
11) At long last a glint of sanity when the PNAC scum are ejected from the White House. The withdrawal of US troops commences.
12) After a century of sheer insanity induced into Iraq by the British and USA, maybe they get to rule themselves with sane representative leaders for a change.
FIREWORKS!!! - Richandler, on 06/30/2009, -3/+12They left the cities, to go to the bases...
- astrixx, on 06/30/2009, -1/+10I was wondering the same thing. Guess the media is too focused on michael jackson and billy mays.
- BohicaTwentyTwo, on 06/30/2009, -2/+10Iraqis are celebrating their freedom in the streets while the Iranians next door are still fighting for theirs.
- Nairebis, on 06/30/2009, -6/+14Nah, I'm fairly conservative, and I'm pretty certain Bush sucked no matter what party you belong to.
- mythicflux, on 06/30/2009, -7/+14Reagan was an old man who through major investments in military infrastructure and cuts in social programs caused untold economic and social damage to the country... but he's remembered fondly as the man who defeated communism.
Nixon lied, cheated and stole to maintain power and win a election... yet for a lot of people at least he was classy enough to walk away rather than risking bad press.
Clinton signed into law ***** legislation that outsourced ***** loads of jobs, had oral sex in the Oval Office and lied about it... but he's remembered as the President who balanced the budget.
Presidental legacies are not apparent until years after the fact. Just because his stupid moments are fresh in your mind does not mean that they will be in the rest of everyone else's 10, 20, or 50 years from now. Which is the point of the original post. If the Middle East does shift towards more democratic and open set of societies Bush's actions will be remembered favorably. (Of course if they fail then they won't be looked at highly at alll).
History will judge. - m3arvk, on 06/30/2009, -3/+10@plzhateme:
Funny, if you change the names of the places and events you could be describing Bush. He killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis too. He could be described as a wanna-be dictator. He did start a war with Iraq and if he'd had the political muscle he probably would have tried to start one with Iran. Illegal wiretapping, breaches of the constitution, torture etc. fits with the "secret police" bit. And the 5000 dead? How many Americans have died? ~4317 so far. - shdwfx, on 06/30/2009, -4/+11@nairebis, mythicflux
While I see your point, I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions you draw in regards to Bush, simply because in order to be remembered as a great president, there should at least be some great things to take credit for.
And, seriously, where are they? Under the most optimistic assumptions, I agree that some might view as the guy who brought democracy (back) to Iraq. But there is no domino effect here. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, etc... none have really moved closer to democracy. Iran elected Ahmadinejad after Bush came to power and marked them as a member of the axis of evil. So, Bush simply will not get credit for bringing peace and properity to the Middle East.
On the other side, he has made the US one of the most hated countries in many parts of the world. He has invaded two countries without sufficient cause. He has run up the debt tremendously. He steered the US into the worst recession in 80 years. He supported torture. And so on and on.
History is not a lottery, and with the amount of information that is being retained these days, there will be less wiggle room to misjudge Bush 100 years from now. - Nairebis, on 06/30/2009, -39/+45George W. Bush may be judged by history as one of the greatest Presidents. Yes, even though he sucked.
Imagine Iraq as a stable modern democracy in 20 years, and imagine that it spreads to the surrounding region. Bush may have sucked (and I think he did), but history may judge him as a great President, based on historical results. If the Middle East is transformed because Bush's actions, there will be no denying that it was a net positive to the world.
I'll also say that it may be that part of the reason that Iran is rising up against their government is because of the elections in Iraq.
I think Bush sucked in a lot of ways, and the mismanagement of the war was atrocious, but he may just get lucky enough to have greatness thrust upon him. - sardiax, on 06/30/2009, -1/+7i'd just like to note that he does have some valid points.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_A ... - masamunecyrus, on 06/30/2009, -2/+8Well, if ONE of the two can get a good, stable democracy, it will inevitably trickle over to the other side. Taiwan, for instance, has played a role in helping China grow into a free market powerhouse.
- jack104, on 06/30/2009, -0/+6Well......Its a step in the right direction but I cant shake this feeling that the Iraqi SF isn't strong enough to handle this task. But all we can do now is hope and pray. Maybe they will be so overwhelmed with joy that we are out of their cities that they will stop blowing each other up for 10 minutes and start working together to make their country great. It doesn't have to be the US 2.0 or anything, but a good blend of freedom and their culture and heritage. Maybe Iraq will be the first real example of an Islamic nation who isn't being strangled by the ghosts and superstitions of years past. One can hope right?
- Loki101, on 06/30/2009, -2/+8The US won. Period. A withdrawal was the only possible result regardless. I mean, they left Japan and Germany and no one really considers that "losing". Iraq is still fragile, but they have to stand on their own someday anyway. Now is as good a time as any before and it will only be a "loss" if the place comes apart as soon as the US leaves.
- Railz, on 06/30/2009, -4/+10I wouldn't take that guy too seriously. He tries speaking for all 3 sects when all of them would never agree on one thing even if just for the sake of disagreement.
- Unreal030, on 06/30/2009, -2/+8@Caucasoid
"Regardless of what you think of Iraq, they now have a well-functioning democratic government.They are not in "shambles"."
Well then that is settled...a lot of Iraqi's seem to disagree with you, but I guess you know better.
Learn how to use google. - inactive, on 06/30/2009, -1/+7Well, at least the BBC covers international news, and hasn't spent the last 2 years following every detail of the Haley Anthony case. Sadly, not many unbiased news sources exist anymore.
- LilRabbitFooFoo, on 06/30/2009, -6/+12That's NOT how the Iraqis think. It's how the puppet administrators we installed think, but not how the people thing.
Bush killed almost as many Iraqis in a few years as Saddam killed in his entire rein. Think about it.
I'd argue that they BOTH are/were war criminal scumbags. - visionaryIX, on 06/30/2009, -0/+5There are fundamental rights and liberties to be expected of any government. In my mind that includes not allowing a murderous, torturous dictator who prevented any resemblance of democratic movement to hold any position of office.
We're not talking about imposing republic based systems on functional constitutional monarchies around the world or threatening the commonwealth. This is about ensuring some basic representation of the government from the people.
Whether you believe military action is justifiable is up for debate, but by your logic we should sit and ignore the plight of Iranian protesters. I can't do that. - zunipus, on 06/30/2009, -0/+5Well, when it's all over and done the cost is likely to go over $1 Trillion. Then there's the cost in lives on both sides, throw in a few tens of thousands of US soldiers maimed for life.
And maybe the best part of all is how the US is now deeply in debt to their oh so good friends China. You know! That country where US jobs are shipped to thanks to the likes of WalMart and friends. That country that declared technology war against the USA and his proven to be the single greatest Internet security risk on the planet. Gotta love that. United States of China. Gotta ring to it. And who's to blame? Love all that Made In China stuff I bought. - MrBogard, on 06/30/2009, -2/+7I just wanted to point out that you're a ***** moron (and a troll).
- Halsfield, on 06/30/2009, -0/+5I hope this works for them. They deserve peace and a chance to run their own government and be prosperous instead of locked in constant fighting.
I just fear that the insurgents are going to take out their anger at the Americans on the "traitor" police force and any other armed forces that helped the US keep the peace while we were stationed there. Also includes any civilian informants that helped find the insurgents. - mattrickmd, on 06/30/2009, -5/+10In 20 years the mideast will have no more oil and no one will care.
- dagamer34, on 06/30/2009, -2/+6@pizhateme
You can't use that argument and ignore the hundreds of other conflicts out there that equally if not more so deserve our attention. - vammirato, on 06/30/2009, -0/+4What has happened to Michael Jackson and Billy Mays?!?!
- areyouserial, on 06/30/2009, -0/+425 June 2009
"However, the first step — withdrawing US troops from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009 — is full of loopholes, and tens of thousands of US soldiers will remain in the cities after the "deadline" passes." - http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/1318/27/
30 June 2009
"The US ‘withdrawal’ from Iraq’s urban centres is a fiction. Iraq’s sovereignty has not been even partially restored. The ‘withdrawal’ is in fact a redeployment carried out over the past few months under the Status of Forces Agreement (Sofa) signed in November 2008.
This document does not call for a complete pull-out but permits the US to station in urban areas at least 50,000 combat soldiers as ‘trainers’ and ‘advisers’ for Iraqi security forces. In addition, 3,000 will remain at a forward base in Baghdad because this facility is said to be outside the capital’s municipal limits." - http://www.deccanherald.com/content/10836/us-troop ... - V3NOM, on 06/30/2009, -2/+6Democracy != Western Democracy
I think the idea of people being in control of their own governments (thus being FREE) is a universal ideal. It can still be applied to values and cultures that differ from our own, nor is our own system of it the epitome by any means. - michaelshipley, on 06/30/2009, -0/+4“Well, Doctor, what have we got — a Republic or a Monarchy?”
“A Republic, if you can keep it.”
Benjamin Franklin, at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 - SpeedSteamBoat, on 06/30/2009, -0/+4@expert: Now that's a credit to George Bush? Absolutely not. Such self preoccupation in the United States makes me sick. The world does NOT revolve around us, and everything that happens in another country isn't directly related to something we did.
Have anyone, ANYONE, in Iran cited Iraq as having had even the slightest influence on their recent actions? - Railz, on 06/30/2009, -2/+6The US Military walked into the capital in three days. The only loss was in US Politics.
- Austinh57, on 06/30/2009, -0/+4Die.
- lnxfi, on 06/30/2009, -3/+7Best place to be when the ***** goes down.
- glberns, on 06/30/2009, -23/+27more like the president who lied his way into killing 4,300+ U.S. Soldiers.
- nosenseofself, on 06/30/2009, -4/+8they privatized the oil in Iraq so I guess the U.S. got what it wanted.
- consonance, on 06/30/2009, -3/+7I've heard "the surge worked" and variations of that from my computer to the moon. If you don't remember your current events completely, let me remind you: around the same time that we were gearing up to surge the crap out of those terrorists, there was intense racial cleansing going on. Shiites and Sunnis were "cleaning out" their neighborhoods cleaner than a whites-only whistle in the pre-Civil War House of Representatives. All the violence halted because the Iraqis ran out of neighborhoods to cleanse. Then the United States walked in and said, "Go us!"
- aimhelix, on 06/30/2009, -0/+3Good for them.
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