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115 Comments
- gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -14/+33***** russians. They simply can't get over the fact that Estonia is not theirs to rape and loot anymore.
- Murdats, on 10/11/2007, -2/+21the orld ignores most things, damn apathetic orld
- ryanonfire, on 10/11/2007, -4/+22"In sov...."
- nick111, on 10/11/2007, -5/+23Estonia is actually really cool - there is free WIFI everywhere, great beer and the most beautiful women I have seen in my life. It's a really tech-friendly place (where Skype comes from) - it's kindof a Scandinavian country but with the vaguely wild-west vibe that a lot of the former soviet states have. I think that due to it's uber-liberal tax laws and proximity to Scandinavia, there's a lot of new business going on there - lots of movies etc.
I go there for Cristmas if I can - I'll be there in a couple of months or so hopefully... though this time round it's the middle of summer.
http://classictravelling.com/wp-content/uploads/Baltics/tallinn_snow.jpg
Estonia is tiny - getting ganged up on by Russia because they "moved a statue" is ***** pathetic - and given that the people kicking up the fuss look not dissimilar to some sort of Nazi Youth organisation, it's doubly disturbing. Then again, Estonia is now part of the EU, and the EU is fairly big complicated thing. Estonia isn't on its own in this. - Junkyarddawg, on 10/11/2007, -4/+18Recently things like this have happened to every country which has displeased Russia.
Government orchestrated or just fanatical members of the Nashin? Is there even a difference? - uberdesigner, on 10/11/2007, -5/+18I've been to both countries. Estonia is by far the friendlier and more pleasant of the two. Russia was just a *****.
- travisvolta, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14As in most wars, the victims are innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict. Hansapank, one of the largest banks in the region, hosts their servers in Estonia. So in the initial DoS attack these b**** managed to disable significant portion of internet banking for all the Baltic states :(
- SickFinga, on 10/11/2007, -12/+23Gotta love Estonia's defense minister blowing ***** out of proportion.
Comparing DDoS to 9/11 is just an insult to those thousands of people that died.
Ohhh and I don't believe for a second that they could trace it back to Kremlin's computers. For some reason I highly doubt that they would do it right from the Kremlin. Im sure Russian government can afford to buy a botnet. - SimonGray, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10I do. Estonia is the underdog and they have acted completely rationally in this matter.
I'm convinced Putin is using this to get more support from Russian nationalists. The Russian protesters claim that Estonians are doing this because they're sympathetic to Nazis for ***** sake... - BigBadger, on 10/11/2007, -13/+22Russians are like disgusting animals. If you don't do as THEY SAY in your own country, they'll do anything they can to ***** you over, all while being the most self-righteous group of *****-eaters you'll ever see.
Russia, Estonia is not your property, you don't tell them what to do. - tvh2k, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7You guys can joke about it but cyber-war is more real than you think. I'm sure the DoD is paying close attention to how the world reacts to this act of aggression, as it will determine whether we decide to pursue such methods of attack against future enemies (read: North Korea).
- kordasn, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9David vs. Goliath, I believe that soverignty allows a country to do what they want in their land. It's not as if they defaced or destroyed the statue, just moved it to a military cemetary.
Fortunately? for Estonians, it's no longer, "in Soviet Russia..." - zsz7, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9@donkz
I haven't heard anyone say Russian army did not win WW2 nor that the events that took place in WW2 never took place.
I have heard that the statue was a meeting place for local extremists that found offensive that Estonia is independent from Russia.
It also seems to me that it is Russian government that is trying to erase history they don't like to admit, occupying Estonia for example.
Besides, there have been news about removal of TWO statues (in Himki and Sotchi) that were erected to celebrate won battles in WW2 being torn down in Russia. If the historical importance is so great, why would Russia let the statues be removed on their own turf? - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8If only enlightened russians learned to stay the ***** out of other people's business
and realize that russia is not a ussr and no one gives a flying ***** as to what they have to say anymore... - redmonkey, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9Nashi is puppet of Kremlin. This organization is getting money and orders from Putin administration.
- gasoline, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7"Estonia is ran by self-admitted Nazi sympathizers, thank you very much."
Who exactly are the "Nazi sympathizers"? The president (a jew), the prime minister (a communist) or both of them? - ahto, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8@ilyag
What ***** Ilya, thanks for being such a good Nashi supporting Russian.
Quoting you: "Discrimination is not only a common occurrence, but is mandated by law." Give me references how this is happening and how "discrimination is mandated by law". You seriously believe that if that would be the case, EU would have accepted Estonia into the Union? And " extreme nationalist sentiment that became popular in the Baltic states in the early 90s". I am sure, that for Russians a desire to have one's own independent countries qualifies as an "extreme nationalist sentiment", but for your reference - the only casualties of this "extremism" were those of the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonains who were killed and hurt during the process, which by the way was called a singing revolution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution. Check it out - hardly anything extreme in it, just three nations longing for independence after 50 years of occupation.
"extremely nationalistic government that doesn't hide the fact that they absolutely hate the ethnicity of a significant (minority) percentage of their own population" - here you go again. Do please give me references to _anything_ indicating hate (sic!) towards Russians within Estonia. The only party close to hate over here are Russians within Russia. The so-called "ours" (Nashi). There are quite interesting parallels between those and Hitler Jugend. Hope that it will not blow on your face in the long run. You know, you can't trounce on outside enemies all the time. Eventually people will start asking, why the hell nobody likes Russians in the first place and why is it the country of such extremes (the ultimate riches and poverty). Hope Putin can answer all these questions without references to capitalism, Estonia, US and all the other "baddies" out there.
"I don't know if Russia themselves are responsible, but I doubt it. They'd have nothing to gain. " They have everything to gain and you better know by now that nothing like this happens in Russia nowadays without the consignment of the FSB that runs the country. I would reword your sentence - they have nothing to _lose_ (at least by Russian standards) by these actions. Estonia is just too small to stir anything up internationally and hurting Estonia will not hurt Russia almost in any way financially. There are other ports out there and other roads to use for the exports. So do they really care about the Russians living in Estonia? No f'n way - they are hurting them even more than they are hurting the ethnic Estonians (majority of the wealth created through these channels goes to Russians within Estonia), but Russians just don't care. Great country you have there.
But I do have to thank you for one thing - uniting the Baltics and other ex-communist countries again! Now we know who our real enemy is once more and if Russians stir any ***** with any other country in the region, you are not getting any support for your cause. We will suck up the financial losses, who cares about money in the long run, but we will not forget. Kinda Phyrric victory in the end? - SimonGray, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7I miss some EU involvement as well. If the problem keeps escalating then we will probably see some EU action (no, not military action), but in my opinion it should have already happened.
- gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7You know wookie, you should really consider an act of self-copulation.
- zsz7, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7Estonians do
- gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6The people you are referring to with such a pride are bigots and criminals.
Oh and when they are in the slammer, it makes me ...ghmm... wonder who will be ***** and who will burn.
My wild guess is that russian haxor'z quote unquote ass is just attractive for a tough criminal's dick as anybody else's.
Get the ***** out of other land's business.
P.S. It doesn't take a lot of knowledge or experience to set up a DDos attack.
Nor do there is anything l33t (except pussy of course) in russia. - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6"That statue represents 100+ nations that fought together under soviet flags. Yes, most of the world doesn't have much passion for commies, but they did do hell of a job during WW2, and by no means only russians. Baltics, southerns, tatars, russians, etc all fought together - this is part of our history. Now they feel the urge of erasing those facts from their hostory because their sour asses don't let them sleep at night. Trying to move/destroy historical, noble, monuments that stand there in memory of our AND THEIR fathers, is what ***** pathetic."
You forget that for Estonians, those 100+ nations are what Nazi germany was for the rest of the world. Nazis promised to leave Estonia alone (as they did with other scandinavian states) whereas Soviets conquered it and.. think of geography: where is Estonia and where is Norilsk - how come so many Estonians perished there? I'll give you a hint: it has something to do with a witchhunt against so-called "kulaks". I'd protest the statue of Hitler in my backyard too. - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7You know, if your people don't like being "a bunch of uncivilized, barbaric, drunken, raping, looting, sub-human savages", they really should stop being barbaric, drunken, raping, looting, AND GET THE ***** OUT of other land's business. Now be a good bigot and go crawl back into the woodwork.
P.S. I wasn't referring to the whole population of russia, just the criminals harassing the Estonians (and everybody else your people can't get along with). - kill4killin, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Very good read. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming weeks and months. How NATO will handle it and how Estonia will ultimately fix the problem.
- tast01, on 10/11/2007, -9/+13good read
- Solenoid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4@ilyag
Then please get your facts right and cite some references if you aim to make a point. You obviously don't know anything about the situation that is going on, at most you've heard these things from the Russian propaganda. As a small country that has EU backing, Estonia won't start a counter operation, why bother, it will only get things worse.
When you're saying "extremely nationalistic government", what about the Russian critics, aren't they an "extremely nationalistic government" and Estonia's just minding their own business? - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5"Hilter had it right. Half of them should be killed off and replaced by the proper Europeans, while the other half used for the only thing they are good for - slave labor. Hail Estonia"
Projecting, aren't we? - ahto, on 10/11/2007, -5/+9Do you know that during the 3 weeks of continued attacks against Estonian sovereignty Estonia _never_ attacked anything Russian or Russian related. Au contraire to Russians, who (within Estonia and in Russia):
- burned and 'pissed on' Estonian flags
- attacked Estonian ambassador with words, bottles and physically in Moscow and Sankt-Petersburg
- called on an all-out war on Estonia (this was a frigging MP for Russia - great democracy you have there!)
- called on all-out economic boycott on Estonia (the rail-links mysteriously went under "repairs" last week and all transit was halted from Russian side)
- closed down the bridge in Narva (calling it "unsafe for transportation"), further impairing trade and car passage between Russia and Estonia
- engage in cyber-warfare against the most prominent news sources within the country and the governmental and financial institutions
- paid 80 kroons (some $7) per hour to the youngsters who were responsible for looting and destroying property during the two days of riots (a local "Nashi" member sent out a mass text message to anybody interested). One might want to ask where the money came from?
- etc.
So keep your nashi/nazi comments to yourself and f off. The funny (and sad) thing is that the people who are hurt the most by all this are actually the ethnic Russians living in Estonia - they own the majority of the transit/export companies dealing with Russia, they are the ones trying to visit their families /relatives in Russia across the bridge in Narva and they are the ones to get scrutinized for their connections with Russian authorities. Russia has always been the most effective country to screw their own people (Stalin and 30 million dead anyone?). - kordasn, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Which one, Russia, Estonia, or do you mean those like Nigeria (411 scammers) or all countries?
- gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4"We don't invade them and _never been_."
Nice try. How did Estonia ended up being a part of USSR in the first place?
There are not russophobes here. Just bigot-phobes, pogrom-phobes, and bully-phobes. No wonder you guys are not very popular. - SimonGray, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6*****.
- cltimo, on 10/11/2007, -5/+8In response to SickFinga. I think the 9/11 thing is misreferenced or something. I haven't heard the defence ministry making such a comparsion. What I have heard are some comparsions between the behaviour of NYs mayor in 9/11 (thumbs up) and Tallinn's mayor (thumbs down) during the riots here, but that's a different story.
- williamdyer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5The citizenship requirements in Latvia, and I expect Estonia is similar, are the same as any other EU country. You have to speak the language. Sux if you are used to being the imperial colonist, but suck it up.
- ahto, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6The problem is that the IP addresses the attacks are coming from are 99.99% Russian - if the attacks came from within Estonia, it would be pretty easy to deal with. And what comes to "It would be a war if the Russian government was engaging in cyberattacks against Estonia's government" BS, then some of the attacks come from within the Russian governmental institutions. Coincidental and just some "disgruntled" workers or a deliberate and planned attack against a nation's one of the most valuable asset (Estonia does not have any significant natural resources to speak of and its IT sector is one of the most productive sectors)?
So yeah, it is an act of terrorism, if not an act of new type of warfare. If it wasn't so, you would not have NATO (including DoD) experts closely monitoring the situation for weeks now in Estonia. NATO is using this as a good learning ground for future, hopefully the cure will not kill the first guinea pug as Estonia now seems to be. - ahto, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3wookie and trovoltex:
Well, so now I do not understand. You _are_ claiming that USSR was not Russia, by definition it means that Soviet Army was not Russian army and the occupation of countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania was wrong and should not be tolerated. So what is this whole argument about then? Why is it OK for Russia now to attack a country that is sovereign and democratic and working towards building a society that has been due for more than 50 decades now? Do you know that before the WWII Estonia was economically (on per capita basis) more advanced than Finland and after finally breaking off from Russia we were lagging behind the Latin American countries? Right now Estonians just want their lives back and they want to make it a country that can be home for all of its citizens - why does Russia think it such a crime that it's worth for them to attack us with everything they've got? Why do we not see the Russians in Estonia then returning to their great motherland if Estonia was such a bad place to live in - even when they were offered during the 1990's on top of retaining everything they had in Estonia, an apartment and a sizeable 'moving bonus' wherever they chose to leave to? Yet, less than 100 left.
I do know that the only victim in the looting was a Russian - actually a Russian citizen. That begs to question - what was a Russian citizen (21 y old) doing in Estonia looting and instigating a revolt? He actually was killed by 2 fellow looters (Russian Estonians) who have been detained, but not yet tried so I can't say for sure that they are the culprits, but seems like so. It was interesting to note the path of the looters - get together at the 'bronze soldier', group, get drunk, and when it got dark hit: alcohol shops, Hugo Boss, Versace, D&G etc. At least they've got taste. Pricetag: $5 million for 2 days, paid by Estonian citizens. Thanks Russia! But as I said - money is irrelevant, freedom is what we want. Freedom from suppressors like Russia.
Btw wookie - if you claim that I do not know anything about the crimes committed by Russians or whoever those "socialist extremists" are, then I would invite you to visit my grandma and have a little talk with her. She lost her husband and 2 sons in Siberia, where a good portion of my father side of the family (among with almost 30'000 others) was deported to after the glorious "liberation" of my country. Funnily enough, the county was "liberated" by Red Army when the Nazi army had left Estonia 2 days ago and Estonia had declared independence again. But hey - what does anything like that count in the rewritten world history where Estonia was and always should remain incorporated within the Great Russian Empire?
So please, do not say that I do not understand what's going on. For me the statue was and is and indication of great grief. But I am willing to give Russians (as well the Estonians that had family members serving in the Army and there were plenty of those - Velikije Luki anyone?) their hero - but not in the middle of Tallinn to be visited every year by hundreds of ex-'comrades' who are more loyal to Russia than to the country they are getting their Social Security checks from. That hurts. Be it on a cemetery, and rest in peace all those who had a true heart and a valiant mind - both Russians and Estonians.
Bitter - yes, hateful - no. Slava bogu! - bkleynbok, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4Korea can outsmart US anytime. While most US hackers just trying to scam people with PayPal.
Koreans are getting around the world. They are much more tech savvy than ones in US.
US is way behind far as new technology goes. - ahto, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@Ilya
First - your name is slavic (and Russian in secific), I made my conclusions from there.
Second - you claim to know a lot about how the life is Estonia and you even claim to know the legislation of the country (please read your comments about "it's mandated by law" and "extremist government"). These claims would seem kinda pointless if you're an American and have never visited Estonia in your life, don't you agree with me?
Care to comment, where do you get your insight into life in Estonia if you either follow only CNN/Fox/NBC (there's hardly anything Estonia-related on those channels) and not living in the country? You seem to be well biased for an average Joe out there. - Annar, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2to BabyWookie and other Russians
1) majority of Estonians do not hate Russians, we do hate communists tho
2) majority of Russians living in Estonia do not hate Estonians
3) journalists are being killed in Russia in regular basis - it is not a free country
4) there are numerous and quite powerful neonazi organizations officially registered in Russia - scary and it should be scary for you too
5) Russian government has not declared communist regime evil as German goverment has which means that the history will repeat itself (remember - Germany lost the WWI)
6) eventually - Russians were participated of beating the nazis - thank you - but for us, the war ended in 1994 when the troops left
And please stop insulting each other, this is pointless. - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4Ok, since you guys are russians, I will rephrase using simpler words:
you praise pogromists, then whine that no one likes you.
Your country acts like a bully and no one likes bullies. Full stop. - turchinski, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4@Solenoid
"I don't see how Russians are treated as second class citizens"
Yeah, they aren't treated as citizens at all. According to wikipedia "in 2006 around 9% of Estonia's residents were of undefined citizenship. This makes Estonia one of the few countries in the world that has a major share of permanent residents without the right to vote in any national elections, domestic or foreign" - BigBadger, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@babywookie
You're a prime example of why russians are so reviled. You see nothing wrong with the evil you do and say, and from all your comments, not once do you recognize the main point that russians have NO RIGHT to tell others what they should or should not do in their own country. I guess the russian brainwashing we've all heard about truly is quite effective at making russians believe everything they do is right. - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3"I want to hope that this propaganda won't go further, I want to have stability and peace in my country"
Well guess what, asshat, Estonians want stability and peace in THEIR COUNTRY. And that ain't no propaganda. - Annar, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2
"This makes Estonia one of the few countries in the world that has a major share of permanent residents without the right to vote in any national elections, domestic or foreign"
They can vote on the domestic elections. You can also get citizenship if you make a language exam? How many countries on the planet can you get citizenship without learning the local language? It is also not possible in Russia btw.
I have no idea where you get your 'facts' from but I assume the source of information is the Russian 'free' journalism.
There are so many fact errors in this thread that I only pointed out the first one in order to avoid to bore you all.
I am not saying that we (Estonians) are absolutely right about everything but the amount of lying coming from Kremlin is just amazing.
Or is it like the old saying "if you tell a lie big enough, it will become the thruth".
Sinc,
Annar - gerbil20, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4What a load of socialist crock!
Do you really think that apart from russians and a bunch of marxist retards anybody would buy this nonsense? - ahto, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3"I want to have stability and peace in my country."
I have to agree with gerbil here - this is such bigotry that I don't really know where to start from here. What are you saying to my little niece who has been crying to bed for the last week because some "anti-russian propaganda victims" decided to throw in all the windows in their apartment in Tallinn while yelling "Ros-si-a, Ros-si-a"? What are you saying to the families of embassy workers who had to be evacuated from Moscow because the "Nashi" was promising to "burn down the nazist Estonian embassy"? What are you saying to everybody who lost years and years worth of sweat and pain through looting, burning and destruction?
And what about your country? What did you guys lose? Dignity, respect and trust maybe, but that was not our doing - that was all you. I know all Russians are not the same, but there was not a _single_ Russian source I have seen over the 3 weeks that has shown any respect to the feelings of Estonians, so to hell with you all! To me, Russia is close to becoming the next USSR, hope you like it. At least majority of the so-called 'ex-satellite countries' have seen your true face and let's hope they'll learn from our mistakes. - ahto, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2@Ilya
Fine, but you still haven't answered any of my questions. I will line them up again for a better reference and add a couple:
1) Quote: "Discrimination is not only a common occurrence, but is mandated by law." Please give me references how this is happening and how "discrimination is mandated by law".
2) Quote: "extremely nationalistic government that doesn't hide the fact that they absolutely hate the ethnicity of a significant (minority) percentage of their own population" Do please give me references to _anything_ indicating absolute hate (sic!) towards Russians within Estonia.
3) Which are your sources for information to what's going on in Estonia and other Baltic countries?
4) When was the last time you visited (or lived in) any of those countries and I hope you are aware of the fact that even though outsiders refer them to as Baltic states (pribaltika for Russians), the 3 countries are quite different so having lived within one does not make you an expert on the other. That's as good as saying that since I lived in Quebec I know that people in NYC speak mainly French. Living in Latvia 10 years ago does not qualify you calling current Estonian government extremely nationalistic. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2All this just because the Estonians don't want a ponderous commie monument soiling their capitol? How can they be expected to celebrate the defeat of the Nazis when it lead to 10 times the misery being occupied by the Bolsheviks. A counter attack on these Ruskie pigs is in order. You can't really blame them for being mad. Their "near abroad" so carefully crafted by Stalin is gone is gone and aligned with the west. They are encircled. The time is not far off when they are surrounded by anti-ballistic defenses, so that not even their nuclear weapons pose a threat. Russia has risen again like a Zombie. It is up to the western powers to smash the corpse back to the ground with shovel.
- ahto, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2@trovoltex
And the bigotry continues.
Quote: "You are so ignorant of history facts." Thanks for your kind history lesson, but MRP was a _secret pact_ between Russia and Germany, under which Estonia was annexed by Russians in 1940. Only after Germany attacked the Russia in 1941 and quickly fought the Soviet army back until Leningrad, were we occupied by Germans. After that when finally the Germans left in 1944, Russians re-occupied Estonia 2 days later - that is 2 days after we had re-established independence. So yeah, excuse me for not "thanking" you for your participation - instead of 1 occupation we actually got 3 and the last one lasted until 1992. We also got 3 mandatory conscriptions and our own brothers ended up fighting each other behind different sides of the battle line by the threat of death. In addition to the tens of thousands killed during the war we lost even more in the deporatations that followed. Great "liberation" by Russian standards indeed.
Quote: "but I understand from where they come and they are not payed by Kremlin as some insist (example I mentioned - USA and French wine)". Sure they are not. As people like Khodorovsky were "justly tried", as journalists mysteriously commit suicide by the dozens in the "democratic" Russia and as nashi are just a grass-root youth movement. I actually have never seen a country as schizophrenic and nationalistic as Russia is - the only good thing is that in 25 years we will have to deal with Chinese across the border, not by you any more. Yeah, worry about a bronze statue in a foreign country whereas your own country is slowly dying out. Good choice.
Quote: "Estonia should be taught (not by terror but maybe by economic actions) that it's not good to rewrite the history and glorify Nazi invation". I love the way how Russians like to make threats. They are not even candid about those. So to you again - we will survive. Your little looting did not work, it just united all the ex-satellite countries again. Your cyber attacks will not work - they will annoy us, but in the long run you have to get back to your botnets and making money by stealing passwords online. And your economic sanctions will not work - you already have used almost all of them (cut the rail links, cut the road links, taken down all Estonian merchandize etc) - but you do realize money is not important here? We are willing to take a 10% paycheck cut, but we are not willing to take any more of that old ***** from you. Estonia is an independent country and we do live better than you and nobody wants Russia back, not even Estonian Russians - get over it! - chancefl, on 08/08/2008, -0/+1Estonian dating
http://www.loveawake.com/free-online-dating/Estoni ... -
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