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Difference between Chinese and English university maths tests

news.bbc.co.uk — Maths enthusiasts are being challenged to answer a sample question from Chinese university entrance tests. The UK's Royal Society of Chemistry is offering a £500 prize to one lucky but bright person who answers the question below correctly.

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  • preved, on 10/12/2007, -86/+19As far as I remember, English task I was solving at 8th grade, Chinese - at 11th in Russia.
    • andr3y, on 10/12/2007, -44/+11yes i dont think this is fair comparison. Different universities have different tests even with in the same city.
    • jmkiii, on 10/12/2007, -31/+22@preved
      I think your English is Perved.
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -60/+18The Chinese question just involves more variables. There is nothing "deeper" in terms of ideas and concepts that is needed to solve it.
    • ldhertert, on 10/12/2007, -23/+218Also, at what point does it make sense to take a single question from a test and count that as representative of the test as a whole. I'm sure if I took the easiest problem on the Chinese test, and the hardest problem on the English test, the story would be completely the opposite. This is a ridiculous comparison.
    • Dayz, on 10/12/2007, -64/+10answers for the english are
      1) 5m
      2) 6m
      3) 3/4
    • stisaac, on 10/12/2007, -99/+4For the Chinese test, how could you possibly prove number (i)? Two lines can't be perpendicular if they don't intersect!
    • dognose, on 10/12/2007, -13/+228"Two lines can't be perpendicular if they don't intersect!"

      That is not true.
    • Revan01, on 10/12/2007, -43/+256This is a good thing, i want those people to know exactly where to sew my nikes

      three dimensional geometry should help
    • abid786, on 10/12/2007, -11/+69@preved (#6336715)

      Ummm no. The Chinese test uses a three dimensional figure. The English test requires you to just know pythagoras' theorem (which is taught in grade 8).
    • Beaver6813, on 10/12/2007, -46/+13I want to learn how to do this :) What does the _|_ sign mean? (Sorry for being stupid)
    • jmkiii, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22Looks like a medium GMAT question, and the GMAT is really just highschool stuff that you have not seen for a while.
    • fredrated, on 10/12/2007, -4/+40@over9: are you kidding me? The Chinese problem involves the angle between planes, the English problem is a simple 3-4-5 right triangle, solvable by inspection by someone with trig.

      @dayz: almost right, the answer to 2 is 6m^2

      @Beaver _|_ means the sides are perpendicular
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -20/+192Here is the US test
      http://aycu31.webshots.com/image/15230/2002636055432707393_rs.jpg
    • realitybias, on 10/12/2007, -23/+11Please, somebody solve this. Right now I'm just sitting here and feeling like americans are idiots.

      Put me out of my misery.
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -24/+7@fredrated: planes, lines blah same thing, just more variables involved.

      _|_ means an element is orthogonal to another element. Such a concept is only possible when there is an idea of distance or size.

      disclaimer: I am about to finish my masters in mathematics. lulz.
    • jspegele, on 10/12/2007, -4/+44@over

      Are you kidding? The English question hardly required any thinking. It's a 3-4-5 right triangle. I knew the answers to parts i and ii before I even read parts i and ii.
    • rhesuspieces00, on 10/12/2007, -6/+80overhyped. the chinese math problem is a pain in the ass, but not really "hard," per se. you don't need anything beyond high school math to solve it, but it would take a while to do so.
    • repins, on 10/12/2007, -22/+9@dognose
      I am not a math major by any stretch, but I looked it up on the "Internets" and it says:

      http://www.libraryofmath.com/Euclidean_Geometry_Definition_Perpendicular.html
      "Two lines and are perpendicular if they intersect at a point"

      so tell me how they can be perpendicular if they do not intersect?
    • guice, on 10/12/2007, -13/+6@rhesuspieces00
      In reality, isn't all math like that? In the end, everything is addition. The skill comes into play when understanding the steps required to produce the answer.
    • fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22Because they can be perpendicular if one of them is on a different Z than the other. They are still perpendicular in the X and Y planes, but are on different Zs, so they never touch, and hence, no point of intersection.
    • pollardito, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17the English test wasn't a test required to pass a course or gain entry into a university, it was a test to "assess the strength of incoming science undergraduates' maths skills", and therefore has to offer problems with a wide range of different difficulties in order to differentiate among people at different parts of the scale. so we can't really determine anything about the range of difficulty of problems on this test from just looking at one of them.

      also, i imagine in England (like a lot of the western world) a huge percentage of the population goes on to university, so a test to determine the relative skill of students in a university will probably have an even wider range than it would in a much larger population country that allows much fewer students to attend a university
    • an0nymous, on 10/12/2007, -13/+5@repins
      The lines can be perpendicular and not intersect if they are of finite lengths. They don't cross beacuse they end before they can.
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1@jspegele: What I meant was that anyone who is able to do the english test should be able to do the chinese test. But it will only take them longer. They are both similar in difficulty measured in mathematical ideas and concepts needed.
    • Scheissenegger, on 10/12/2007, -10/+8Here's a sample from a recent English math test (need to do this as approval, so it's about 3 weeks old):

      ((1/a^2)(1/b^3))^6 = 432

      What's a*b?


      (Still quite simple, but harder than that A^2 +B^2 = C^2....)
    • bvnay, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3Why is dayz getting digg down? He got it right, even though its a simple thing to do.
    • maffiou, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Two line are perpandicular if the scalar product of their directing vector is 0... It's the concept of orthogonality...
      The definition offered is true in a 2 dimensional space.

      English test is taking the piss,

    • CoBLeviathan, on 10/12/2007, -14/+470Maybe the following evolution of math education in America can explain why we can't solve the problem:

      1. Teaching Math In 1950
      A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?

      2. Teaching Math In 1960
      A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

      3. Teaching Math In 1970
      A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

      4. Teaching Math In 1980
      A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

      5. Teaching Math In 1990
      A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands.. He does this so he can make a profit of $20.
      What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers.)

      6. Teaching Math In 2006
      Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80.
    • audiowizard, on 10/12/2007, -30/+9Quit doing math and make me my shoes !!!
    • jackwills, on 10/12/2007, -0/+37The Chinese tests are harder in-line with the population of China-- more potential candidates for limited places. The bar is simply pushed higher.
    • kelbear, on 10/12/2007, -3/+54I am American and I can confidently say that I was taught well enough to solve the UK problem by early highschool.

      I can also say that I completely forgot and would have to google how to get an answer if I had to answer the question today.
    • Nichevo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@Maffiou
      Your definition is good for all of n-space.

      I notice a lot of people saying that the Chinese question isn't that hard. It looks pretty hard to me.

      My "brute force" general solution would look something like:
      1) Use basic geometry and trig to find the required unknowns
      2) Find the normal of the planes in question (via the cross product of two of it's intersecting lines)
      3) Use the dot product to find the angle between the normals
      4) Use basic geometric reasoning to find the angle between the planes

      Any of you math whizzes want to cough up an elegant approach?
    • Rajjai, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4@Revan01, @ Soundcore
      Continue with this attitude and soon they will be owning the Nike, Inc and will ask you to solve one such problem before selling you a pair of shoes.

      People like you will just sit on their fat asses and complain about jobs going oversees but wont acknowledge the hardwork they are putting to get these jobs.
    • sid0, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25You think this is easy? Some of the questions in the entrance exam for the Indian Institute of Technology will blow your mind. Here's one of the easier ones that I came across:

      Prove for all positive numbers a, b, and c, that ((1+a)(1+b)(1+c))^7 > (7^7) (abc)^4.

      Two thumbs up to whoever solves this within 10 minutes.
    • godofgodlygods, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23@CoBLeviathan

      That is the most BRILLIANT thing I've heard on digg. Rofl. Still laughing my ass off.
    • garf12, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2Come on CoBLeviathan site your sources that joke has been around for years.
    • apophisitis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+74Mathematician here. Almost exclusively all high school students here in the USA have enough background to solve this "dreaded chinese entrance exam" question.

      The difference is that they are never expected to, have never seen such a problem before, find the number of unknown intimidating, are too lazy to try, and would give up after a minute or two because they think they are "not good at math".
    • codelogic, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Here are some similar questions from a pre-entry test (after high school) conducted by the IIT in India. Solutions can be found at the source:

      * A line 2x + 3y + 1 = 0 touches a circle C at (1, -1). Another circle cuts circle C orthogonally and the end points of its diameter are (0, -1) and (-2, 3). Find the equation of the circle C.

      * Given parabola y^2 - 2y - 4x + 5 = 0 . If tangent at a point P on the curve meets the directrix at Q, and a point R divides the line segment QP externally in the ratio 0.5:1, find the locus of R.

      * There are 18 balls in a box, 12 red and 6 white. 6 draws are made of one ball at a time without replacement of which at least 4 are found to be white. What is the probability that in the next 2 draws, exactly one ball is white? (Leave the answer in terms of C (n, r).)

      * P1 and P2 are planes passing through origin. L1 and L2 also passes through origin. L1 lies on P1 not on P2 and L2 lies on P2 but not on P1. Show that there exists points A, B, C and whose permutation A'.B'.C' can be chosen such that
      (i) A is on L1, B on P1 but not on L1 and C not on P1.
      (ii) A' in on L2, B' on P2 but not on L2 and C' not on P2.

      --
      Source: http://123iitjee.com/free_downloads.htm
    • sid0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11It's taken 10 minutes for me to solve just the first part of that problem, using vectors. It isn't too hard, though.

      Hint: Start by assuming A as the origin, AB on the X-axis, AC on the Y-axis, and AA1 on the Z-axis. It becomes quite easy from there on.
    • codelogic, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1edit: dup. sorry.
    • sid0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3And once you go on from there, it becomes extremely easy. 10 minutes for the first part, and another 5 for the other two.
    • rouslan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8@jmkiii
      >@preved
      >I think your English is Perved.

      How well do you know a foreign language?
      "preved" actually means "hi" in Russian (converted to Latin characters), not "perved."
    • DavidBGie, on 10/12/2007, -3/+24But if the west gave students a harder test someone might get mad at the school or teacher. SOMEONE COULD BE OFFENDED!! WE MUST AVOID THAT AT ALL COSTS!!
    • asteron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"((1+a)(1+b)(1+c))^7 > (7^7) (abc)^4"

      First I assume you are talking about positive integers (as the inequality does not hold for some positive numbers between zero and one). Anyway this is a basic proof by induction as it holds for a=b=c=1. If you assume that it holds for a=k1 b=k2 c=k3... its easy to see that it is also true for a=k1 + 1 b=k2 c=k3 by looking at the first few terms in the polynomial. It would then be true for b and c due to symmetry and is thus true.
    • Rekzai, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3I'm pretty sure this isn't true..

      If this is what their doing in American universities then how come I did it last year in Grade 10 ??
    • lazka, on 10/12/2007, -16/+6In Soviet Russia you don't solve math problems, math problems solve you!
    • sobe86, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I'm at Oxford Uni (UK) doing maths atm, and if they had asked me the pythagoras's question in my first year exam, I would have been shocked. Can't have been a very good university that set that question, because that would be an easy question for GCSE students (15 and 16).

      To get an idea of some of the questions I got asked in my entrance exam, here's one: 'how many 0s does 100! have at the end of it?'. Not staggeringly difficult, but still a lot harder than the example they gave in the article...
    • laplacian, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7I love how stisaac is getting dugg down hard about a basic math concept when he's completely right:
      http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Perpendicular.html: "Two lines, vectors, planes, etc., are said to be perpendicular if they meet at a right angle."
      http://www.libraryofmath.com/Euclidean_Geometry_Definition_Perpendicular.html: "Two lines and are perpendicular if they intersect at a point and . . ."
    • squaredUP, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Couldn't the Chineese come up with a problem where the diagram was easier to read. The math is not too horribly complex but I would spend most of my time making sure I was reading the right lines and angles off that ***** picture.
    • jun2san, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Problem: y = r^3/3

      Answer: Derivative dy = 3 r squared dr over 3, or r squared dr, or r dr r.

      Hardy Har Har!
    • WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@fatdog789
      "Because they can be perpendicular if one of them is on a different Z than the other. They are still perpendicular in the X and Y planes, but are on different Zs, so they never touch, and hence, no point of intersection."

      If that is the case, then what we have is sloppy use of language, and misleading terms. They should perhaps say that their traces in the XY plane appear perpendicular, not that the lines ARE perpendicular. The point is valid that, by definition, perpendicular lines must intersect, as in ...actually have one point in common. And that point must be defined in as many coordinates as the entire thing....or else, the 'intersection we are talking of is actually two points, in a 3-d system, that merely have two coordinates the same. it is a piss-poor kind of description to claim they are 'perpendicular. '
    • WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@dognose
      ""Two lines can't be perpendicular if they don't intersect!"

      That is not true."


      I believe the correct, non-sloppy term would be 'non-co-planar, apparently perpendicular.'
      We are talking about the traces of two lines in 3-space, seen in a particular plane.

      Change the orientation of that planar 'frame of reference', by tilting it a little, and suddenly, the TRACES of those lines will no longer appear perpendicular.

      The more general term to describe 'perpendicular' is 'gradient' -- as in 'the direction of greatest change', or 'most rapid departure from a line, curve, surface, etc.'

      Many western kids have so much trouble with math because there are so many really poor math teachers, who don't understand it or how to teach it without making it boring.

      At least that was my experience, teaching it for years while in college.
      Kids were terrified of math, because they had been exposed to the crappiest of teachers.
      Perhaps the vague usage or misuse of the term 'perpendicular' here is an example of this.
    • WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@over9
      "_|_ means an element is orthogonal to another element. Such a concept is only possible when there is an idea of distance or size.

      disclaimer: I am about to finish my masters in mathematics. lulz."

      Ahh ...so you are saying that the whole idea of a 'gradient direction', or 'perpendicularity' is rendered absurd from the point of view of 'rubber geometry' (Topology).

      Cute!

      Damn! I was drinking coffee from a Klein bottle, and it spilled... right back into the bottle!
    • khag7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1to put to rest the perpendicular line thing.. two LINES are perpendicular if they intersect at a point, yes, but two line SEGMENTS must not intersect at a point, but their corresponding lines must, and the lines in this problem would intersect had they been drawn out to extend infinitely
    • gerbil20, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2@rouslan
      >@jmkiii
      >>@preved
      >>I think your English is Perved.

      >How well do you know a foreign language?
      >"preved" actually means "hi" in Russian (converted to Latin characters), not "perved."

      Thanks for proving jmkiii's point. You have just brilliantly illustrated how a person commanding basic English is unable to see the subtleties.
      "perved" is short for "perverted" which rhymes well with "preved".
    • Erch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Why can't you just accept that the Chinese are better at maths than you.

      "They" probably have math-only-schools while "we" in the western world usually have wider programs where we read 2-3 different languages, religion, history, politics, media, programming, economics, etc etc.
      Different people are good at different things, if i were to study math 24/7 instead of 4 lessons a week for 3 years during high school I probably would have been able to solve that question in 1min as well. I just wouldn't think it was fun, but in a huge population like China they don't have any problems finding people who think it is.
    • Daiken, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Meh, I think everyone will agree that the Chinese education system is tougher than the American system. That doesn't mean China is any way smarter or better than America. In countries like China and India, the view is without a good education, you'll get nowhere in life and that's fairly true. In America, even if you're a high school dropout, you can still become a millionaire.

      In China, if you're not very good at things like math and science, you'll spend your life working in a factory. In America, everyone is given the opportunity to live a good life, so teachers and the education system are a lot more supportive and forgiving. Who cares if you can't solve 3D geometry? It isn't going to help you if you're doing marketing for some company.

      In China the population is too large, and the number of university spots are limited. In America, people have a better opportunity to get a higher education if they want.

      In China, everyone dreams about coming to the US.
    • applessauce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Prove for all positive numbers a, b, and c, that ((1+a)(1+b)(1+c))^7 > (7^7) (abc)^4."

      @asteron: This is true for all positive reals, not just the integers.

      Proof:
      Fix b, c at arbitrary positive values. Take the left hand side of the inequality divided by the right hand side, and consider that to be a function of a, f(a). We want to show that f(a)>1 for all a>0.
      Take the derivative of f(a). f'(a) can be written as the product [7a-4(1+a)] and a bunch of expressions that are clearly positive for positive values of a, b, and c. Thus f'(a)=0 when a=4/3, f'(a)>0 for a>4/3, and f'(a) is less than 0 for a less than 4/3, so f(a) has a local minimum at a=4/3. Since f(a) is continuous on its domain and there are no boundary points, it follows that f(a) is greater than or equal to f(4/3) for any positive values of b and c.

      Now consider f as a function of three variables, f(a,b,c). We have shown that f(a,b,c) is greater than or equal to f(4/3,b,c) for all positive values of a, b, and c, and by similar argument f(a,b,c) has its minimum at a=4/3, b=4/3, c=4/3. Thus it suffices to show that f(4/3,4/3,4/3)>1, which I leave as an exercise to the reader.

      QED

      Sorry, sid0, I didn't set a stopwatch, but I'd guess around 10-15 min to solve it on paper and double that if you want to include the time to write it up.
    • sid0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Or, applessauce, you could simply use the AM>=GM rule.

      If you open up the LHS, you'll get (1+a+b+c+ab+bc+ca+abc)^7.
      Using AM>=GM on the numbers a, b, c, ab, bc, ca, and abc,
      you get
      (a+b+c+ab+bc+ca+abc)/7 >= (abc)^(4/7)
      or (a+b+c+ab+bc+ca+abc) >= 7 (abc)^(4/7)
      or 1+a+b+c+ab+bc+ca+abc > 7 (abc)^(4/7) adding 1 to the LHS
      or the result (taking 7th powers on both sides)

      This is the simplest method I've found of doing this, and it still requires a bit of insight.
    • bsmeteronhigh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No Child Left Behind #1: The Chinese have a question on a test that the Federal Government just put on our test.
      No Child Left Behind #2: Is that the test or the pre-test? Or is it on the pre-pre-test.
      No Child Left Behind #1: I think it was on the quiz for the pre-test.
      No Child Left Behind #2: I sure wish they'd just teach us instead of testing all the time.
      No Child Left Behind #1: Well, the government needs something to count to show they're doing their job.
      No Child Left Behind #2: Like counting the wmd's in Iraq?
      No Child Left Behind #1: Exactly.
    • CodyZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Is it really a shock that Asians are better at math?
    • Mephux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Russian school are actually the top in the world for mathematics.
    • chingy1788, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1obviously people dont care if the question is worth 10% or 1% of the test
      Ive seen harder questions for High school exams harder than the chinese Uni Entrance exam question
  • klown256, on 10/12/2007, -6/+80The chinese university exams are incredibly difficult. Student's senior year is basically solely to prepare students for the test. My (chinese) girlfriend says she had around 4 hours of homework a night, every night in highschool.
    • JCSaint, on 10/12/2007, -5/+86So I guess the phrase "harder than Chinese algebra" is pretty spot on.
    • brufleth, on 10/12/2007, -11/+49...so? In high school I had 3+ hours of homework just for AP physics plus all other classes stacked on top of that. Many people in the class didn't put in that time though and they still got by but did poorly on the AP test.

      You can challenge yourself in a US high school or you can slack off and let others do the thinking or have teachers hold your hand. You might get similar grades either way but you'll learn a lot more doing the work.
    • owenadam, on 10/12/2007, -7/+53So? Imagine if that test was in Chinese!
    • chingy1788, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3I'm going to go ahead and ask, what is each question worth in each test
      If the first one is worth 10% of the test and the second is worth 1% then why bother comparing
      If they are the same or if the first one is worth 1% and the second is worth 10% then I would be amazed

      UNSW has some pretty tough math, we never get the see the second question ever or the first on our exams...
      From high school:
      HSC 2Unit maths was ok, but harder than the second question
      HSC 3Unit maths you would expect to see the first question to be in the exam
      HSC 4Unit maths WTF?! first question probably worth little in the exam

      UNSW:
      Expect 3Unit and 4Unit HSC Maths stuff to be in the first year Maths course, then there is a Higher First Year Maths course as well

      For those who haven't guess it, the HSC is an Australian High School test, for NSW & ACT students only, UNSW is a University in NSW, Australia

      We do have it pretty tough... and I'm Asian, I'm suppose to be good at math (stereotypically)... and I only passed first year math and may fail second year math, Vector Calculus, Complex Analysis (hell even the name makes it sound hard, we have a lecturer who looks like Steve Martin). Owning the programming Course though, HD in both programming courses so far.
    • NoHandle, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5Imagine that... A country with more honor students than we have students has hard entrance exams? Now who is the idiot?
    • thenatador, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3brufleth:

      3 hours of homework a night just for AP physics?? Good lord. Granted it's been 15 years since I took the AP physics test, but I got the maximum score of 5, and I didn't have to study much. I had an excellent teacher though. I think you either get it (with the help of your teacher), or you don't. You can't just "grind" out understanding in physics.
    • BigATB, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3a digg user has a girlfriend?
    • fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2I agree with Chingy. If the latter question is only 1% of the final grade, it's intended to be a throwaway question. If the Chinese question was 5% of the grade, it's still more important to the grade than the English question, and hence, should be more difficult.

      In university, they stop doing that "hardest problems at the end" crap, and just make the harder problems worth more, because they demonstrate more and deeper understanding of the class material.
    • Pawster, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Are you serious? I have friends in China... And they would wish they only have 4 hours of homework...
    • shortcircuit13, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Actually, it's entirely understandable to spend 3+ hours a night on AP physics.
      Not to insult brufleth, but when everyone I've known who did that (and this was in a magnet school, so we had it freshman year) didn't "get it."

      But, it's not a something that some people simply get and others don't. You need lots of practice to get a feel for physics, and even if you do scads of homework, you might not get that feel for physics if you don't approach the right way (i.e. just plugging in formulas from your class notes).

      Physics, like theoretical math and economics, is essentially a way of thinking, and you need to acquire that if you want to progress beyond sleepless night devoted to AP homework.

      Also, my AP physics class overprepared me for the test. From my estimation, you only need about a 60% to get a 5 on the AP Physics test. So, it's really not that hard.
    • zaimek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Before the gov in PL "improved" our edu system we did similar questions to the Chinese one in mid high school. Now I doubt ppl know exactly what math is all about.
    • lieutenantmudd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I had four hours of homework every night in high school. Education in America shouldn't be defined by the lowest common denominator, just because public schools suck doesn't mean we're all morons. Private prep schools and A-track programs at public schools can be fantastic educations
    • donkz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11"Don't work hard, work smart" (C) House
    • sobe86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Interestingly though, only one chinese person has ever managed to win a fields medal (highest honour award in maths), wheras mathematicians from the UK win it fairly regularly....
    • tonich03, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Well I don't know, but here in Spain if you don't study 5-6 hours a day after school(fridays and weekends included) you won't even pass. The entrance exam is said to be easier, at least that's what they say. Wish me luck!
    • adrenaline33, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12In the U.S. I can't imagine the brighter students ever having more than 2 hours of homework except maybe for a big project that they put off or something. And thats with a full course load(4-5 IB/AP classes). The kids that seem to spend the most time on HW are the ones that are extremely dedicated to their studies but not as smart. It takes them far longer to do the work at night.
    • biiscit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Don't forget the time restriction. I read a lot of comments saying that it's a simple question, just long. Well, the entire Chinese test averages out to be about 3 minutes per question. Now, which one is harder? Also, to the person whose girlfriend only had four hours of homework a night: that's VERY LITTLE compared to the students who go to cram school or have private tutors (a very high percentage). Those students end up studying til the wee hours of the morning.
    • JasonDelta, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1gg u have girlfriend
  • ace87, on 10/12/2007, -30/+2I'm Glad don't have to take the Chinese one, I would never pass.
    • ahhell, on 10/12/2007, -3/+105It's a good thing you don't have to take their English exam. Your head would asplode!
  • wheresmyreagan, on 10/12/2007, -11/+90But if some students can't solve the problem it will hurt their feelings. We should stick to stuff that everyone can learn.

    Who needs them books anyway. Learnin' is for suckas!
    • hikaruzero, on 10/12/2007, -36/+7Being unable to solve a problem doesn't ever hurt my feelings -- and I'm honestly having a difficult time imagining that it could hurt *anyone's* unless they are such a spoiled rotten kid that not being able to do something for oneself is akin to an insult ...
    • chogie, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14Dumbass, the answer was sarcasm. Do you feel sorry for yourself now.
    • xtmno3, on 10/12/2007, -3/+28@hikaruzero:

      First of all let me welcome you to the Internet, as you are obviously new here. As a welcoming present, I give you this informative link to help you get going in the right direction:
      http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/

      Second, you have just been exposed to something we call 'sarcasm'. Although many people on digg will give people the extra helping hand in recognizing sarcasm by providing a '/sarcasm' at the end of their statement, some do not. This is the latter case. The parent commenter is making a statement about how the U.S. society is babying its children too much in the fear that we might hurt someone's feelings.
    • webcrumb, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4In fact, not only would it hurt their feelings it would be discrimination! Intellectism. Damned intellectists.
    • djripple, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1wheresmyregan says:...no im not.. im being serious!!
      /sarcasm
    • drakethegreat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I don't need to do vector addition to know that my penis is twice as long as anyone from China who gets that right.
  • walfredo26, on 10/12/2007, -5/+49I have done some research on the matter and I have come to the conclusion that the difference pertains to the fact that one test is written in Chinese and the other is written in English.
  • mrgreg, on 10/12/2007, -7/+56Entrants should be sure to set their calculators to "Maths" before attempting this problem.
    • Philluminati, on 10/12/2007, -17/+2
      Also, Can we have the question in English?
    • Electric_Sheep, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27Maths is a colloquialism, as is Math.

      Maths = MATHematicS.

      Both are acceptable. But Maths is predominantly said in the UK.
    • d03boy, on 10/12/2007, -17/+3Maths sounds stupid. It's not like anyone ever says "mathematic" so why not just stick with math without the S?
    • yoyobye, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I hope people actually get that "maths" is a joke from the "Look Around You" series as well. For those who don't know, "Look Around You" is a fake documentary / teaching series from Britain.
  • thegoldenavatar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I can solve the Chinese problem easily now, yes, but that's after getting my BS and a year working on my MS. I would have done rather poorly on it coming out of high school.
    • Otto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+56I was thinking the complete opposite. I would have been able to solve it easily just after high school, where I'd been working calculus problems and thinking about trigonometry a whole lot in my last year or so. Geometry was 8th grade stuff.

      Nowadays, having not done any of that for a few years, I'd have to look up some of the relevant formulas and it would take me much longer. In college, I didn't take much mathematics. Calc3 was as far as I went.

      The difference between the USA's educational system and the Chinese one is not a matter of the educational capability. The Chinese *require* their kids to learn. The USA only allows them to learn, if they want to. I cannot comment on the UK's educational system, having never seen it and frankly not understanding it anyway. Why do they add an "s" after "math", anyway?
    • arnar, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Good for you. I wouldn't call it "easy". Even for BSc grads in Mathematics the Chinese problem is still alot of work and definately not something you can do in your head (and yes, I have a BSc myself).

      However for the English problem, high-school graduates should be able to answer all three questions from the top of their head (without writing anything down).

      ps. What field are you in that keeps you in form to solve this kind of problems easily?
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24@Otto: a better question would be why did the US remove the "s" in maths, considering that England did make the language. There are many peculiarities in the English language. For example "metre" which is spelt "meter" in the states, but why the isn't apple spelled appel for instance.
    • coolspray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14@Otto (#6340290)

      I think in England (and most other English speaking countries) we keep the 's' from the end of mathematics, giving 'maths', wheras in North America, it's just 'math'. Couldn't be sure though.
    • coolspray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@over9 (#6340422)

      I don't think it was a conscious decision to do it, that's just how language evolves, especially with the Atlantic separating the countries.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences
    • mattrazzo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5It's quite evident that different people have different HS experiences. I solved these problems in 10th grade. That was 20 years ago and I haven't used it since, so it would take a little thinking to solve it, but these are not MENSA problems.
    • catalysis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I agree with otto. This stuff is all taught in American highschools and it isn't even a hard problem. It's just geometry. You guys probably don't remember or maybe never took the class. Most 10th grade students should be able to do it easily.
    • Hologram0110, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3I think I can figure out the Chinese problem, though, I'm currently in university in Canada for engineering Physics. I'm not sure my approach would be the most elegant method but it would work. In Ontario (Canada) the tools needed to do this problem are taught in "Linear Algebra and Geometry". Although the tools are there after that course I'm not sure that the average student would correctly answer the question. Its not simply the geometry taught in grade school like some people are saying. As far as I know the best way to get the angle between two vectors is to use a dot product, which can also be used in the same way to show that they are perpendicular. Which we didn't learn until that course.
      At university I became friends with a lot of international students who kick my ass at math, and I was one of the best at it in my high-school. As far as I can tell its a matter of we are too easy on our students and we make more well rounded students. For example many of the students I'm talking about kicking my ass did not have to take many high level language courses, which they force upon us. Instead they take a much more focused course load for better or worse. I however wish they pushed harder in high-shool to preform.
    • xenuxenuts, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6@coolspray

      Here in america, we don't believe in evolution. Obviously, our language differences were intelligently designed, despite the isolation due to the Atlantic.
    • gharding, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I've been out of school for three years and can still solve both.
    • d03boy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1But can you write a formal proof?
    • Silencer7, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1part (i) is not too tricky, just extending the info already given (i think)
      the answer to part (ii) is 60 degrees --> inverse cosine of sqrt(3)/2
      for part (iii) I'm stuck with one horizontal angle of 60 degrees meeting one vertical of 26.565. I don't know how to solve for the final angle...it's been too long =/
  • Philluminati, on 10/12/2007, -11/+3
    In related news: Chinese School intake drops to all time low!
    • abid786, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@Philluminati (#6340230)

      That's the thing though; these questions wouldn't be considered 'impossibly hard' in China.
  • Narkinbarf, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2I think if we all knew this would be on the test we would have studied for it, but since we knew we'd get the dumbed down version that was all we had to study for. I blame the U.S. universities, not the high school and not the student.
  • emehrkay, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2I could probably do it (at 26), but at 17, yeah right
    • ShrimpCrackers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Wrong. Because at 26 you'll have forgotten everything. Now is your best chance.
  • debtman7, on 10/12/2007, -31/+6Question 1: under what circumstances should the word 'math' be pluralized?
    • PatrickBeseda, on 10/12/2007, -18/+3Correct me if I'm wrong but I think in the UK they refer to math as maths. Wierd right?
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -6/+34Answer 1: When you stop being ignorant of other countries' history, tradition and culture. And England did make English.
    • sovereign3, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23If you're in the UK...
      Remember, there are more dialects than American English.
    • trieste, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24and we spell 'wierd' differently too. How weird is that.
    • SpaceMonkeyZero, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Maths = Mathematics.
      Math = Mathematics.

      Just think of it like Colour and Color and get over it.
    • dmoore764, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I wouldn't say England "made" English, that is just where it was assembled.
    • ChrisJP, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Do you call it "mathematic" then?

      By your logic, "math" is incorrect, as doctorsax said, mathematics is plural so it should be "maths". Either way, does it really matter to you?
    • WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@over9
      "Answer 1: When you stop being ignorant of other countries' history, tradition and culture. And England did make English."

      America had a beautiful language, from the beginning -- until the Brits came along and ruined it.

      (it was called Navajo!) :-)
    • adrenaline33, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I'm sure that as the historically(last 300 years) superior country, The U.S. does not need to apologize for some dialect changes that have occurred to the English language. America was the cultural *centre* of the 20 century, so I'm pretty sure that the Americanized version of English is probably more common around the world than the English version.

      Also, when looking at it *math* doesn't make complete sense of an abbreviation of mathematics, but neither does *maths*. Not many words abbreviate the words using the first few letters and then add an "s" on the end. Maths seems more slang than math if I had to pick one.
  • ChadReitsma, on 10/12/2007, -45/+4I really appreciate all the math wiz's out there, I know they do some amazing stuff (although I don't really know what) but I've always said - WHO THE F&%* CARES IF YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO USE IT.
    • arnar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18I bet you're one of those people who loved history classes then ;-P
    • Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+36I guess the computer your typing that on was made with magic, then?
    • Roger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16"I know they do some amazing stuff (although I don't really know what) "

      Don't you have a cell phone? A TV? A Computer? A watch? Any piece of technology?

      Making all that stuff just boils down to math. Search online if you wanna see exactly whats involved.
    • zeero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6wow you must be a total idiot if you don't think we need math...wow.just wow... have fun working at mcdonalds.
    • onidraky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Until, while making 5 burgers he gets asked to hold 2 of them, then what does he do?!
    • drilldown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In Soviet Russia maths triangulate you.

      *snickr*
  • yhan, on 10/12/2007, -27/+6The chinese one is quite easy to solve mentally. Anyone in 7th grade should be able to do the english one.
    • yhan, on 10/12/2007, -19/+5Why are you digging me down? Maths teaching sucks where I live but it's still not as dumb as in the US where i'd guess most of you are from
    • sovereign3, on 10/12/2007, -9/+8"Why are you digging me down? Maths teaching sucks where I live but it's still not as dumb as in the US."

      I think you answered your own question in the second sentence. Plus, I think you're a liar.
    • mtrip, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Everybody who's stated that the Chinese one would be simple for them to solve, strangely enough, hasn't provided their solution.
  • bennybertow, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I don't know, but the second one is pretty simple. And the first one could be doable, though I have not done any math since I finished my Abitur (Germany).
  • PatrickBeseda, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2I can't solve it(I'm 18). Anyone? How about anyone that can tell me the length of AC?

    • Luthor, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2The answer is 4
    • Roger, on 10/12/2007, -3/+28No its 42.
    • unusualbob, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3i could do it, but it would take time that would be so much better spent digging articles.
    • bvnay, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14, 42? are you taking about the second question. Using the Pythogoras Theorem
      for question 2 , the length of AC = square root of [(AB) square + (BC) square] = 5
      and the length of AC for the prism is square root of [(AD) square + (CD) square] = 16
    • Silencer7, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5if AD is 2, DC is 2*sqr3, and AD is perpendicular to DC, then ACD forms a right triangle and AC is 4.
      AC is perpendicular to BD, so we can find ED through the area formula, 1/2 b*h.
      (1/2)2*2sqr3 =(1/2) 4*ED --> ED=sqr3. thus ED=AAsub1=sqr3.
      EC=3, AC=1, also by the pythagorean theorem.
      is it safe to assume AAsub1 is perpendicular to AC, seeing as this figure is a "square prism?"
    • bvnay, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1correction, length of AC is second problem = 4
    • Silencer7, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3and, ok, part (ii): the angle between planes A1BD and BC1D is 60 degrees. (inverse cosine of sqrt(3)/2)
    • Roger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@bvnay

      Sorry, that was the answer to a different question.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Answer_to_Life%2C_the_Universe%2C_and_Everything
    • riquiscott, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@roger - 12 other Diggers and I got it and thought it was funny.

      Having to explain 42 as the answer to ANY math question in a geek forum? What is this world coming to?
  • bonavistask8er, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1perhaps canada is a bit different, but when i was in high school this would have been pretty reasonable - the triangle questions are quite easy. i can't remember most of my proof theorems, but even that isn't too crazy. Now i did do advanced maths (haha) in highschool. But this is probably a tougher question than you would see on most north american math entrance tests (i didn't do one so i don't know for sure.... yes i'm bragging).
    • HeyBob, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Yup, in Ontario I took 3 separate math classes: Functions, Calculus and Algebra in grade 13 (now phased into grade 12)
    • misteral, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I was thinking the same thing. I remember having having similar questions to the Chinese one in OAC's (grade 13, essentially university "prep")

      I wouldn't say though it's a culture or geographic thing, just depends on what you study. The article even says it - in China everyone studies math 'till they are 18. In England, "most people" go up to 16. I'm sure if you found the people who kept going in it they would have no problem on that Chinese example as well.
  • ChadReitsma, on 10/12/2007, -11/+4I really appreciate all the math wiz's out there, I know they do some amazing stuff, but I've always said - WHO THE F&%* CARES IF YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO USE IT. I used to get into arguments all the time with my Highschool teachers about how the education systems should be tailored to each individuals passions so that they may explore things that TRULY interest them, instead of sitting through class after class of useless ***** that is forgotten as soon as the test is over. *sigh* someday....
    • Dadelus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The reason for this is because life isn't always about what interests you. I am by no means a mathematician and I will also admit that I can not solve the Chinese problem. However I will say that since graduating from school I have used A LOT more of my High School and College math than I ever thought that I would. Just because you have convinced yourself that you will never use something in life doesn't mean that you won't. Heck, when I graduated from High School I went to Art School. I figured I would NEVER use math there. I was wrong. I also don't seem to escape using it in my everyday life.

      Not to mention that learning many different subjects is helpful in understanding the world around you and prepares an individual to better understand and manipulate their surroundings. As an adult I have to admit I have less respect for people who are so obviously specialized in a single area that they can't understand anything that is outside of their small area of expertise. On the other hand people who grasp multiple areas of knowledge are much more interesting.
    • Teething, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@chadreitsma

      In high school, you can barely decide what pimple cream to use let alone what you want to do for the rest of your life. Exposure to everything is a good way to get some direction on where you want to go. It gives you options.
    • the6thReplicant, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2that maths question is just like trying to play a really complicated chord on the guitar...you might never need it but you'll a little bit more about music
  • Jshnlsn, on 10/12/2007, -13/+12... and I'm proud to be an American
    where at least I know I'm free...
    • arnar, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11Are you?
      http://www.digg.com/political_opinion/Fascist_America_in_10_easy_steps_2

    • Lnomis, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4I appreciate the sarcasm
    • Dayz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8i lol'd
    • sovereign3, on 10/12/2007, -9/+15Why does everyone see this as an opportunity to attack the American education system? This is a study that was done the United Kingdom!

      While our education system up to the secondary education could certainly use some revamping, keep in mind that the entire world FLOCKS to our universities. The American university system is the best in the world, bar none. All of those Chinese students are competing to go to Harvard, Yale, or even some decent public university in the US. They're not studying their asses off to get into Shanghai College.
      • Xentrion, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Maybe the Beijing University though. That university is on par with the big American ones.
    • SherlockReport, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17@sovereign3 'The American university system is the best in the world, bar none.'

      hahahaahaha hahahahahahahahaha LMFAO

      They FLOCK (as you say) from the four corners of the world to live in America to earn MONEY.. So they can have a house with a white picket fence and drive a mercedes, not to worship at the alter of American education. An academic in Poland earns $200 a month a doctor maybe $300 in America that is $5000 and $15000 a month.. For doing the same job and being able to enjoy pizza, Macdonalds etc.. So they can live the American dream, or what's left of it...

      In China it's $50 a month for an academic and $75 for a doctor in India it's about $150 a month for an academic and $250 for a doctor, in Russia it's about $300 for an academic and $400 for a doctor... Do I need to go on???????
    • deadordying, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1@ sherlockreport

      "This just in! People in different countries make different money in the same professions! Also, they can buy different amounts of things with that money."

      Thanks, Ric Romero. I agree with your statement that the U.S. education system isn't the best in the world, but I fail to see how your points help illustrate this in the least bit.
    • halavais, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Wait! You're both wrong.

      First, Chinese students do flock to Shanghai University, precisely because the quality of the education is extremely good. A degree from Shanghai will put you in the graduate school of your choice in the US. The US still draws *grad students* from around the world, in part because of reputation built up during the last century.

      While the difference in academic pay might determine whether someone *stays* in the US or returns home, it does not as clearly determine whether they come here--especially for undergrad. Frankly, while the academic here might make more income--and even more "real" income, when adjusted for cost of living--only a very small proportion of those who receive Ph.D.s are able to find a job in academia. Doctors & lawyers are a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
    • adrenaline33, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1How was pointing out that doctors make more money in America a viable counterpoint? Yes, they do. Was that supposed to be a shot at America? "Your country sucks, the doctors there make the money they deserve"? While I'm sure that one of the main reasons that kids from other countries flock to U.S. schools is so that they can get a job here after they graduate, the system as a whole is still the best in the world, bar none. There are schools like Oxford and some others that are in the top tier, but there are 1, maybe 2 in each country that belong there. The U.S. has probably 10 in that top tier. There are the Ivy league schools, MIT, Stanford, etc. Not to mention the hundreds of state and small, private schools that would be considered very good schools in most countries. So yes, doctors do make more money here, but the university system is still the best in the world.
  • Lnomis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I wonder what they call the Chinese remainder theorem in china?
    • Just1nD, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13they don't allow excess babies so the answer is ERROR
    • meatmcguffin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"the remainder theorem"
    • over9, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0unfortunately there is already another theorem called the remainder theorem.
    • voidvector, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's called 中国剩余定理 (the exact translation of English). There were many names for it in classical Chinese, so I guess they picked one that's easily translated.
  • thecheatah, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3"Foot of perpendicular is E" what does that mean?

    Anyways before I started college, I was making 3d games and 3d physics engines. Transforming objects using matrices and creating complex data structures to optimize collision detection.

    I would love to see this entrance exam problem:
    If a pool ball has velocity x, y, z, determine the rotation matrix to ensure that the ball looks like its rolling across the surface.
    When will that be on an entrance exam?

    OOh and btw all the stuff I learned pre-college, I still used in college.

    See this problem requires memorization of many small details. I dont think that it is a proper way of testing someone's abilities. You should instead give all of the minor detail may be even more and see if the person can put them together to solve a problem. (real life example of giving all the minor details the "internet").
  • biuku, on 10/12/2007, -8/+8I for one welcome a joke about our new Chinese overlords.
  • jch0075, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2guys, guys. I think we all know the REAL answer.........42. But that begs, what is the question?
  • deathspeth, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1I was doing math problems on that level in the 10th grade.
    "Schools and students are reluctant to consider A-level mathematics to age 18, because the subject is regarded as difficult"
    In my high school I didn’t have a choice; I had to take math similar to this level in 11th grade. Although many students didn’t understand what was going on, but it wasn’t the teachers fault. You can’t help students who don’t want to learn. Also the second question that is from an English university is something that was standard question in my 9th grade math classes.
    • b0wl0fud0n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18Education today is in serious decay in America. One of the significant problems are an unwillingness to learn and pressure by parents to force their students to overachieve despite a fact that their child may not be capable of it. Students today merely copy material off the internet or each other, refuse to read the material assigned to them and for the most part are apathetic to school in general.

      "These days, the wrong answer is no longer wrong. There has to be some reason why the kid answered the question this way. No... it's not wrong, that will hurt the child's emotional well being, the child was just being creative."

      "What are you saying about my child? How dare you claim that my child can't handle this work! My child is more intelligent than any of your other students."

      "Why are you giving so much homework to my child? What happened to childhood? You're causing an unbelievable amount of stress on them at such a young age which can cause permanent damage!"

      I'm sorry but sometimes some students NEED to be left behind... or they SLOW everyone else down. Sure, we need to guarantee a bottom level of education... but we shouldn't do so at the cost of the education of our brightest students.
    • hobophobe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1No one needs to be left behind. Some people are inevitably in a bad environment where they won't learn as well as others. That doesn't mean we should give up, though. It means we should work on providing better environments for everyone so that we all achieve more.

      That's the point of society, right? Instead of staying up 24/7 to make sure a bear doesn't attack me, I can stay up 12 hrs and you can stay up 12 hrs and we both get some sleep. One hand washes the other, right?
  • Gugel, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Secondary education and below might be better in China and the former USSR.
    The U.S. blows every other country out of the water when it comes to post-secondary education. Period.
    • adriand, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2I agree, while our highschools are seriously lacking, we have an incredible undergraduate and post-graduate system.

      You must realize, these are CHILDREN we are talking about. I would rather have an education system that prepares them for LIFE, and how to be a self-reliant INDIVIDUAL, than a mindless academic drone. Many of these test-oriented schools (in many countries, even the US) seem to put out "humans" that can only know factoids and can only do their brainy/nerdy maths (or other specialty).. sure, they're good for business, but I would never want to talk to them outside the office, chill with them at a bar, or go to the game with them... whats the point of humanity if all we achieve is smarter, more efficient, but unbearably boring people... that what computers are for!

      Disclaimer: this is my opinion from a very small sample size of people I know who went to these schools, so take it with a grain...
    • hikaruzero, on 10/12/2007, -12/+11I'm sorry. Any country which allows its President to pass from an ivy-league school without being able to pronounce "nuclear," does not have the kind of credibility you describe. Let alone advanced problem-solving skills, speaking skills, diplomacy skills, management skills ... I'm sure we could fill a comment page if we wanted to devote that much time to it.

      Call it an "accent" if you like ... but he still has never admitted that the correct pronunciation is indeed correct. He himself doesn't beleve it's his accent.
    • IntoTheWired, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Politics =/= Education.

      You can feed the most brilliant of minds a carefully crafted line of *****, and despite their better judgment, they'll shovel it down and ask for seconds, never mind the fact that we don't get to vote on who gets to graduate and receive a degree from any school. Assuming his education was bought and paid for, is it not also plausible that his presidency would be handled the same way?
    • halavais, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12> The U.S. blows every other country out of the water when it comes to post-secondary education. Period.

      This is a comforting fiction that is going to come back and bite us. Hard.

      Many of our undergraduates are graduating, including from some of the better schools, without being able to construct a business letter. Few are graduating with the ability to critically analyze a problem. Undergraduate education has been in steady decline over the last two decades, and if you look at surveys of businesses seeking new employees, they are desperate for universities to teach students how to think and write.

      Some of this is the increase in the number of students who go on to college. When a college degree is required for some retail sales positions, everyone thinks they need to get a degree. That's a good thing, to my mind, but it means the level of preparation of an average college student is down, and it is more likely you are in a 100 person class (or 1000 person class) with a bunch of people that never would have gotten into college in the 60s and 70s.

      As for graduate school, the quality of masters-level education has dropped significantly over the last decade, and Ph.D. programs--once they become profit centers--are next.
  • cmschmidt, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1think about it. "maths" is short for "mathematics" (with an s). we Americans cut off the s. it's not mathematic.
  • dlogic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2It is not a fair comparison.....some questions in the same paper are difficult to solve.....

    is that the comparison between the toughest questions or the simplest questions?
  • bvnay, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Its not just the Chinese exams which are tough. The Japanese and Indian exams are probably tougher given the competetion. The high profile Indian Insititute of technology has about a few thousand seats and competed among 250,000 every year.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institutes_of_Technology
  • Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Assuming you mean part 1 of the English question, it's root (3² + 4²), which would be 5. I remember significantly harder questions at GCSE (15-16) level, and far harder in my university entrance paper. A level (16-18) maths or further maths is far harder than the question, so I'd imagine it's a deliberately easy question for a slightly maths related course.
  • chipwar, on 10/12/2007, -9/+7If you pass the Chinese entrance exam, you also get a free forced abortion.
    • ray901, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2and a dissident's kidney for your grandma
    • chipwar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2and when you graduate, you get a lacquered, flayed slave from a coal-mine cave-in instead of a diploma.
  • AsylumAleikum, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Yeah, but American schools have a stronger sex education curriculum.





    • hikaruzero, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3And it is lead forward through the darkness by our ever-insightful President, with his foolproof way to not get AIDS ... abstinence!
  • xDibblerx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I don't even understand the statements in the Chinese part. "..and foot of perpendicular is E." ??? What the hell does that mean? Also, I don't think (iii) is real because as far as I can tell AD and BC1 won't over intersect each other so I can't get an angle unless I move the object to a 2D plane.
  • DivisibleByZero, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Glad to see I got a decent high school education. Was doing stuff like that in 9th grade.

    /Doesn't a "square prism" have to have a square on each end?
    • hikaruzero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It's probably a translation error. Same for "foot of perpendicular is E," and so on.
    • zeous, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3the chinese problem in 9th grade? where did you go?
    • DivisibleByZero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Catholic school. The geometry teacher was underpaid as all hell, but the kind of teacher who actually gave a crap about her students, so yes we learned how to write proofs. This would have been considered a difficult problem at the time, but would not have been out of the question.
  • inkyblue2, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2math class is tough!
  • sparechange, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4Those problems aren't especially difficult. It's simple Geometry and Trigonometry. From the description and the article, I was expecting to see Differential Equations types of problems or something.
  • andy3109, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2In conclusion. Chinese underclassmen perform pointless proofs. Being a graduating EE major, I can tell you I am using 1% (if that) of the math and science I used at school. All difficult calculations are handled on computers these days. It is a waist of time to do stuff like that by hand.
    • bvnay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Its testing your analytical skills...and its definitely not a WAIST of time.
    • andy3109, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1@bvnay

      Since when does applying geometry rules test analytical skills? If one could analyze (without proof) the questions they seek, then I would agree. Otherwise, the proof is just trivial.
    • bvnay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@andy3109
      Why do they have geometry questions in tests like SAT, GRE or GMAT? While you may choose whatever field you want to get into, its to test the person's analytical abilities in fields like business or engineering..without using a calculator.
    • the6thReplicant, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yeah but which 1%...everyone is that class had a different definition of their 1%
    • andy3109, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The 1% is actually a common joke among engineers at any school. Ask teachers, industry leaders, anybody. SAT, GRE, etc. are just tests that you study and have a method for. I'm not sure if I am being dugg down because everyone on Digg is in HS or are in non math/science related fields...but my statements aren't opinion...they are fact.

      Need proof? Ask any engineer. There are better questions to test analytical skills...a geometry problem isn't one of them.
  • cruxed, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2when you drop a straight line from a point in space onto a line/plane and form a 90 degree angle, the point where the perpendicular and the line/plane intersects is the foot.
  • grumpy1377, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0chingy1788:

    meh, im doing the same thing, first year though, im at UOW- what course are you doing, (im guessing computer engineering or softwareengineering?)
  • deadordying, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9This is not a question of whose children are smarter, or whose education system is better. What this boils down to is competition - in China the number of competitors for top schools is unimaginably huge, especially compared to the U.S. and U.K. They have to weed people out. Think about it - if you're one in a million in China, that means there are 1,300 people just like you.
  • codmate, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1I'm British and I'm so stupid I can't even work out how to type, let alone use a computer!

    I'm living breathing proof!
  • kurtwinter, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Excuse me, but how is knowing or not knowing the answers to these questions supposed to help anyone?

    In finance and IT I have used a variety of math skills, from algebra to probability and statistics, but no geometry. I've used physics, and I have had to understand chemistry, but not geometry. In fact, I've used just about everything I have learned in high school, either in travel, business or the arts, but not geometry. While both trig and calc are helpful in these areas to provide the language of computation to help understand natural systems, geometry has been perfectly useless.

    I can't think of a more useless field of endeavor. I haven't used geometry since the one class I had to take to HS, haven't needed it in college for either my finance or sociology degrees, haven't seen in any real world applications. Just on the GMAT's and I still score in the top 15% just guessing at these geometry questions.

    Is the only purpose of geometry to make math geeks feel smart?
  • TBirdMustang, on 10/12/2007, -12/+2Wow.... this is silly!!
    What does the BBC think is so hard about this?
    Ok Something you should know about me: I am in High School in California (49th in Standardized Test Scores in all the USA) and am now a junior (11th Grade)

    1. The English Test: That is just like the Entrance exam I took to get into my High School!! (Yes granted... I learned tangents in sophomore year in Honors Algebra II)
    2. The Chinese Test: (i) Is a simple proof that I learned how to do in Honors Geometry in Freshman (9th Grade) year of High School. (ii) & (iii) are simple geometry as well

    Oh please BBC... get your head out of the ground and learn some Math! (not Maths)... maybe you were too busy going to concerts and doing other 60s & 70s type stuff on the Isle of Wight

    Yes I will give it to you... if you are not an Engineer, Mathematician, or a Physicist you will NEVER use this stuff in real life. Yes I am more of a history geek

    -TBird
    • ray901, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I think you have done a good job of showing that you are an idiot.
    • BradMW, on 10/12/2007, -3/+51) Were you held back in maths? You seem to be about 3 years behind actually talented individuals.

      2) Thanks for telling me that I don't use geometry as an engineer. I forgot.
    • TBirdMustang, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Well bradmw

      Replying to 1)
      I am not claiming to be talented in Math... I was simply saying that I learned all this stuff within my first two years of Math in High School

      Replying to 2)
      What are you smoking?
      What I said: "Yes I will give it to you... if you are not an Engineer, Mathematician, or a Physicist you will NEVER use this stuff in real life"
      I said that Engineers use Geometry, though that is one of the few occupations you will ever use geometry in.

      If you are in fact an engineer, don't you have something more important to do than make misread comments on digg?

      -TBird
    • kelbear, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4That's the point of the article. Everybody in the UK and US has been taught how to answer at least the 2nd question if not the first. I would also expect every adult to have been able to solve the 2nd question at the time they were taught it. I would also expect a high probability that the vast majority never used it again after that and that this article is one among a handful of times that they will be confronted with such a question without opportunity to research material they've already understood and can easily reacquire.

      The article plays off the fact that people are embarassed about what they've forgotten in order to make the article more striking. The comparison is just the framework for this little zinger. But the reality is that people specialize. Kids need to know it to show they can learn it. Adults need to know it if it's their job, and they've already passed the tests proving that they can learn it.
  • UrbanVoyeur, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Both problems are straight forward and fairly easy for anyone who has taken high school geometry, which in my US high school, was given in the 2 year. There were much harder problems on the NY state geometry regents exam (20 years ago)

    That being said, people should realize that most Chinese students are NOT expected to do well on these exams. Like the entrance exams in France, India and elsewhere, most students are not expected to even try, just get a job after the equivalent of high school and get on with their working lives. In China, India and may other places, universities are largely state funded and have a very limited number of seats. They are intended only for the talented and educated elite, not the general population

    Of course in Chinas, 1 person in a 1000 is still 1 million people.
    • mobilebuddha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4and i'm still waiting for your solution to the chinese question.
    • Timmmm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think the English one is a little easy compared to the reality. For example:

      There is also a workbook, which is a booklet of fairly straightforward questions intended for students to work through shortly before they arrive in Cambridge to check that there are no gaps in their mathematical knowledge: http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/documentation/workbook/text.pdf

      Example from the above:

      Prove: tan θ + cot θ = sec θ cosec θ

      Significantly harder than a 345 triangle!

      Also the Chinese one looks pretty easy (well if it was written in coherent English anyway - foot?).
  • eatmorgnome, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Well, here is another American who could do this stuff in high school geometry.

    Is the UK school system really this bad?
    • ElwoodHerring, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2At least we don't teach creationism as fact in the UK.
  • Soldan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3In the US our educational system needs an overhaul period...it does not play to the strengths of the student, the overcrowding and lack of attention to social issues of kids.. some kids are not going to "get" higher math no matter how you slice it...so you need to develop programs that make them valuable in other ways...perhaps more vocational options.. I found applied mathmatic concepts much easier to learn when i was in school.... just having a paper with abstract problems was just jibberish to me..but if applied to chemistry or physics it was alot easier to get a handle on...
  • BradMW, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I wish US college weed-out exams were like that. 800 math SAT is an absolute joke.
  • 1611av, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Well, I couldn't imagine my 4th grader solving either of those problems in high school when the elementary math curriculum doesn't teach the basics. The horrible, "feel-good" curriculum called Everyday Math is ruining these kids' math abilities. Example: my son is expected to COUNT squares within shapes to find the area, instead of using the standard universal formula A=L x W. That's very helpful. "Hey son, get those 1 square foot markers and start counting how many square feet of flooring we need for the kitchen." To make this worse, area was "taught" for about 2 days and left behind for something else.

    Addition/subtraction/multiplication table learning is non-existent in this curriculum; how can anyone do any math at all without knowing those basics? Even worse yet is the emphasis it puts on the student to "come up with their own way of doing it". I could go on and on and on.....
  • Jarasmen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Lol, is that English test for real? I remember doing stuff like that in middle school.
  • aliengoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What I find interesting is this notion that US and European mathematics are lagging by miles (well, more US and European). In addition, I find the number of innovations and new technologies that come out of these countries more interesting. Could it be that while mathematics is important, an environment where an individual can bring an idea to market and compete is much more valuable?!
    • buhatkj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1and even moreso, the combination of disparate fields is what often leads to innovation. being the best math genius evar makes you just that, great at math. not great at applying that math work to anything useful.
  • buhatkj, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2i didnt bother spending the time to solve it, but it appears that the chinese problem exercises the same theorums and body of trig knowledge, that the english one is meant to, but simply chooses to be a more complete an dcomplex test requiring more visualization. I would imagine the english test has many problems of a simple nature, whereas the chinese test has a few, which are each very complex.
    in the former USSR, math specifically was VERY highly emphasized in education, perhaps to the exclusion of other subjects, and resulted in not very well rounded grads, i wonder if that is the case in china. so sure, all the students have mastered calculus, but do they know history, do they know how to write effectively, do they have any appreciation of art, or culture, business, finance, etc? the aim of the british and american education systems is not to build experts at the undergrad level, or to wash out people as unfit. that happens at the graduate level.

    i personally find it distressing that so many people seem to know bupkis about history, business, and geography. i would argue that in most professions, these are more important than math.
  • deadhead05, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4My TA is Chinese, a Chem Graduate Student and he cannot do simple math at the University of Wisconsin Madison, he also cannot speak or understand English.
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