digg

Join DiggAbout

Digg Townhall Tonight!
Tune into the live Digg townhall tonight at 5:00pm PST/8:00pm EST.

Death Threats push anti-Qur'an film Fitna offline

radionetherlands.nl — In its place is an official statement by the website saying the film was removed because of very serious threats to staff. The statement speaks of a sad day for freedom of speech but insists that the safety of the website's staff has to come first. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee4_1206625795

show profanity settings
expand all
  • stonebear, on 03/29/2008, -6/+57Freedom of speech alive and well beneath the jolly roger:
    http://www.mininova.org/tor/1278612
    • ojk007, on 03/29/2008, -0/+439mb?
      • milliamp, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Yes, if it is the same film I saw on Google vid it is short (16 mins).
    • funkyjunk3, on 03/29/2008, -1/+13http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-294954647 ...
    • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Very good! We need to keep this film alive on the Internet no matter what happens.

      Now as an aside, Anonymous declared war against Scientology for trying to take down a video, and rightly so. But where is Anonymous now? At least the Scientologists weren't cutting people's heads off! At least when Scientology took the Tom Cruise video down, they did it using the law, instead of death threats.

      Come on Anonymous - we're all waiting for your Declaration of War against Islamic Fundamentalism. And please, no chicken ***** excuses or weasly justifications. Islamic terrorism is 100 times worse than Scientology.
    • pitlord, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Received from http://www.mininova.org/tor/1278612: "This torrent does not exist..."
      -_-
      Sat, 3/29/08 4pm pacific time, U.S.A.
      >.>
      You were saying?
  • roosevans, on 03/29/2008, -4/+81It is disturbing to see "freedom of speech" being threatened by radical Islamists.
    • burkay, on 03/29/2008, -37/+5Is it also disturbing to you that a hate-movie produced by the fascist politicians of Holland is considered as freedom of speech? Do you also consider Hitler's ideas on Jews as freedom of speech?
      • smacksaw, on 03/29/2008, -5/+28People like you are sadly funny. If a politician in Holland is right-wing, you immediately call them fascists.

        So let's get this right: you all are upset about a movie that paints Islam in a negative and inaccurate light, but you're more than happy to call people on the right who are trying to use freedom of speech to open debate "fascists?"

        There's really no middle ground with people on the far edge of the political spectrum like you, is there? You're no better than the people you call fascists. Takes one to know one. Now kindly go ***** yourself.
        • buddypriefert, on 03/29/2008, -3/+8Whew, good comment smacksaw. You did the work for me.
        • provoko, on 03/29/2008, -1/+9well put smacksaw
      • Trat, on 03/29/2008, -1/+8Here you go: http://revolution.muslimpad.com/2008/03/27/congrat ...
        • buddypriefert, on 03/29/2008, -2/+10One of the most humorous things is to watch a Muslim attempt to defend their religion of hate, anger, and fear driven. Cracks me up every time.
        • provoko, on 03/29/2008, -1/+6It's sickening.
        • max420, on 03/29/2008, -1/+2That letter right there is one more reason why Islam should be exterminated. Sure there are non radical muslims, but those radical ones are ***** crazy. Sure, there are radicals in other religions as well, but they never threaten to take over entire continents. Thats just ***** up.
      • cowman, on 03/29/2008, -0/+11Freedom of speech works both ways. The haters get it too.
      • cashman57, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2Which is more hateful, a movie that lasts a few minutes or thousands of muslims being killed by other muslims in the middle east?
        If you want to know what put islam in a bad light you should look at the big picture.It isn't a movie it is suicide bombers. It isn't politicians it is the murder of muslims by muslims because they worship the same thing in a different way.
        Some of the worst crimes against muslims and islam were prepetrated by muslims for islam.
        A 16 minute movie is NOTHING compared to the horrific treatment of muslims at the hands of other muslims.
        But then again life means so little to some of these people it galls me.
        Yes there are GOOD people who are muslims. Not just moderate good. People who care about others and want peace, not death but they seem to be unable to stop this murdering bunch of haters among them.
        I think the problem is bigger than any muslim wants to admit aloud.
    • prisoner24601, on 03/29/2008, -0/+20The way some people think astonishes me. They seem to believe in freedom of speech for those who agree with them, but not those who don't.

      http://digg.com/world_news/Dutch_protesters_agains ...
    • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/29/2008, -1/+11disturbing yes, but certainly not suprising anymore.
    • shaelen, on 03/29/2008, -7/+6What's more disturbing, to me, is that people are nationalist. The fewer nationalists we have on this planet, the fewer wars.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -3/+2The world is my family.
      • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -3/+2then we can have global government that has no allegiance to local needs -- you know, like the 13 American colonies and the British Empire?
      • madoc62, on 03/29/2008, -4/+7No, Shaelen, you've got that entirely backwards. Nationalism isn't the cause of wars, imperialism or Communism is. Nationalist are folks who are proud of their own country and what it has achieved. They like the distinctiveness of their own country and are willing to defend that. There's nothing wrong with that. And that is what Wilders' film is pointing out. The Dutch, as well as the rest of Europe, are being overrun by Islamists - fanatics who share none of the values which have made Western Civilization so worthwhile. Fanatics who are using Western tolerance as a weapon against the West. He's just calling for awareness and a defense of liberal values. That's liberal as in classic liberal thought and principles.
        • shaelen, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1Nationalist aren't only about defending the distinctiveness of their own country, they are also about forcing it upon other countries, too. Example? U.S. invading Iraq on the false pretense of WMD's. Now it's all about "democratizing" the middle east. Pshaw.
    • sk11, on 03/29/2008, -0/+7Ironically, they just prove the point of the film and help it gain more publicity.
    • buddypriefert, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Fitna could have been much worse but human eyes are not meant to see the whole disgusting truth of Islam at one sitting.
  • neocognitism, on 03/29/2008, -65/+15Yay for anti-Islam bigotry and hate!
    • akaz, on 03/29/2008, -21/+29quran = toilet paper
      • neocognitism, on 03/29/2008, -35/+11you = idiot
        • akaz, on 03/29/2008, -8/+19allah = not real :(
          • neocognitism, on 03/29/2008, -16/+4Let's all guess what religion you are. hmmm....
          • akaz, on 03/29/2008, -3/+6atheism is NOT a religion :(
          • DaffyDuck, on 03/29/2008, -6/+1God, Allah, Jesus, Flying Spaghetti Monster = not real.

            There. Better?
          • davharrington, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4At least muslim crusaders have stepped up their level of thinking to a binary way of thinking,,
            ie You don't like murdering people in the name of the pagan illah Allah = Christian
        • rkho, on 03/29/2008, -3/+24neocognism = troll
        • sk11, on 03/29/2008, -1/+5You're right: the quran makes for horrible toilet paper.
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1*anti-Jewish joke about the torah*

            *anti-Christian joke about the bible*
          • Samas11, on 03/30/2008, -1/+5*anti-neocognitism joke about his intelligence*
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1That's almost funny, shill account *****.
      • burkay, on 03/29/2008, -22/+4It is very unfortunate that you exist.
        • dcshiderly, on 03/29/2008, -3/+22What's unfortunate is that you condone a faith that advocates cruelty to others, violence to women, oppression of thought, and outright asshattery. I'm certain that you'll make a ridiculous parallel to Christianity, but there's a difference in a faith that advocates turning the other cheek as a matter of course and a faith that demands the heads be removed from the infidel. It's one thing to have a less-than-one-percent minority that recommends violent acts, and quite another when said violence is mandated by the state.
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1There's branches of Christianity like that, and some Hasidic sects are like that too, depending upon what you had in mind with "cruelty to others"

            How's Rev. Hagee?
        • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -6/+10"...but there's a difference in a faith that advocates turning the other cheek as a matter of course and a faith that demands the heads be removed from the infidel."

          I wonder who has more casualties in Iraq and afganistan, us or them.
          • cygnus2112, on 03/29/2008, -2/+18Muslim on Muslim violence has far "out-killed" anything that any "foreigner" has or will do in that region.
          • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -12/+1wrong again
          • neocognitism, on 03/29/2008, -14/+2Yeah leave it to us Christians to kill huge amounts of us living in foreign countries -- WWI, WWII....
          • cygnus2112, on 03/29/2008, -1/+12Christianity had as much to do with WWI and WWII as ballcaps have to do with testicular cancer.
          • davharrington, on 03/29/2008, -1/+5Wasn't it a muslim that started WW1?
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -6/+4Your an *****, (but I lol'ed).
      • vanzan, on 03/29/2008, -8/+4akaz= 12 yo at most
      • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -14/+3your just jelous that unlike christians, islam has preserved its book and religion
        • cashman57, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4Really? why are there different sects then? Sunni shiite sufi, all three different forms of that religion. Which one "preserved" it? A mummy is well preserved too but it does not make it useful. Look at what you have preserved. An intolerant unchanging 7th century cult that is the most hated religion in the world today. It is not able to cope with the reality of change because the authors of that book indicated it was the final word But then it split into pieces as soon as mohammed died. Do you preserve something by breaking it into pieces? Is a 1400 year old book even relevant today? If you are going to properly observe the book wouldn't you have to pretend bathrooms don't exist? So, explain how something broken is preserved?
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1Actually by numbers, Islam is the second most loved religion. We all know what the most reviled major religion is in the world today, not by me at all, but by the world you were talking about.
    • weeFred, on 03/29/2008, -1/+23It's freedom of speech, the same freedom that allows you to come on here and spout your ***** day after day. We don't agree with it, but we have to put up with it.
      • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1By We you mean the six or seven Little Green ***** who are paid to come on here and shill? You don't have to read it, I ignore what you say mostly, I just make fun of how wrong and hateful it is.
        • weeFred, on 03/30/2008, -1/+4Is that how you justify yourself? Pretending that everybody that disagrees with you is on the payroll? Anybody can do that.... yeah your on the muslim payroll.. it's most likely not true, but it's on the same level as your arguement. (if this comment doesn't make sense, don't blame me, it's friday night and i've been out on the piss, and i'm very worse for wear)
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -3/+1don't comment when drunk on political topics, lest ye be judged for your grammar, spelling, and punctuation.
          • Samas11, on 03/30/2008, -1/+5To neocognitism-shut up and stop posting your crap in this comments section. People ceased caring what you think 15 of your poorly argued comments ago.
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1***** off Samas11, nobody wanted to hear your whining and pussy-ass threats before they came out of your mouth. Go find a friend and stop griefing us with your existence. I'll be commenting here, but you need to stop right now before you embarrass you and your family any further.

            Now shoo.
    • pitlord, on 03/29/2008, -1/+7You disgrace Israel and Jews everywhere by using the Israeli flag as your avatar.
      • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -5/+1You disgrace Israel and Jews everywhere by hijacking the terms "pro-Israel," "anti-Israel," and "antisemitic," in order to support the extremist views of the minority Shas and Likud parties in Israel. You say you represent Israel when your views are in direct opposition to the vast majority will of Israel. The fact is YOU are far more anti-Israel than you are accusing me of, and I am in solidarity with the majority of Israelis, and I am therefore pro-Israel. You are a shill account using antisemite, who is a traitor to America, and a traitor to Israel. You're a chickenhawk warmonger, and everybody knows it. You might even be one of those completely insane Christian Zionists Cult members, and therefore you insult and defile every real Christian on the planet.

        I use the Israeli flag as my avatar to celebrate what Israel wants to be, not what you and your lying deceitful cadre want to do to her. Israel is a wonderful place, and I wish her peace and prosperity, but mainly deliverance from the likes of you, spreading your hate on our dime, as soon as possible.

        So ***** off pitlord, or LoneRanger, or whichever scumbag you are. You are the abject height of hypocrisy.
        • suheez, on 03/30/2008, -4/+0Free Palestine from the Jews that thirst and starve the people to death! Allahu Akbar!
          • neocognitism, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1Uh no, not what you are saying provocateur shill, ***** off.
  • studdenfadden, on 03/29/2008, -8/+50How could anyone feel threatened by someone who adheres to the religion of peace?
    • provoko, on 03/29/2008, -7/+7When those people make death threats.
      • studdenfadden, on 03/29/2008, -0/+16Sarcasm is hard for some people to understand.
    • chicagospur, on 03/29/2008, -0/+21"It's the religion of peace and we will kill anyone who says it isn't."
    • faithfreedom, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2ROP (tm) is a misnomer.
  • truspect0r, on 03/29/2008, -4/+7Yay for free advertising!
  • suprbad, on 03/29/2008, -10/+4Will Piratebay pull the movie? Awaiting their response here: http://thepiratebay.org/legal
    • ComstockGordon, on 03/29/2008, -2/+3Uh.. seeing how that page links to legal threats that have nothing to do with this then the answer is probably no.
  • akaz, on 03/29/2008, -5/+11step 1. islam
    step 2. ???
  • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -26/+7Mabey I'm just not getting it, but whats the purpose of an anti-quran film?
    Is it similar to an anti-bible film or anti-jewish film?
    • elvenseven, on 03/29/2008, -5/+31. Controversy
      2. ???
      3. Profit!
    • diggrnumber1, on 03/29/2008, -0/+11perhaps, but this has now become a free speech issue
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -7/+4I dont think its okay to make death threats and such either. But the submission title says Anti-quran movie. I'm not sure I support an anti-anybody movie. And what kind of reaction did they expect from attacking someones religion anyway?
        • weeFred, on 03/29/2008, -0/+15Why is it not ok to make an anti anybody movie? Is religion exempt from criticism just because it's religion? If hitler or stalin or mao had called their ideology religion would that make it ok?
    • banmaster, on 03/29/2008, -1/+17Well how about you watch it, at least up to the point where it graphs the numbers of muslim/Islamists that call Europe home over the past 2 decades.
      Anyone who doesn't think the numbers are alarming has their head stuck firmly in the sand. Possibly next to the body from where it was removed because of some stupid violation of Sharia law.
      • dcshiderly, on 03/29/2008, -0/+17And we here in the 'States think we have a problem with Mexican nationals immigrating illegally. At least our problem is half the size of Europe's, and ours don't try to burn down all the cities in the southwest if someone insults the pope or Catholicism.
        • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10I can't remember the last time I had to worry about an illegal immigrant walking into the club/bar with a bomb.
        • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10Screen your immigrants better. Who let all the nutballs in?
          • davharrington, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4For ONCE I'd like to see a western country who leaves it up to the people to decide what culture comes in and completely assimilates their identity, at least give them a choice FFS.
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -2/+2Why would islamic zealots want to move to europe? I'm not sayin I dont believe it, it just seems kind of bizarre.
        But then why would you address an immigration problem by attacking the quran?
        • StGhurka, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1Economic opportunity, they're refugees from wars or maybe their current residence is just a *****-hole. When you've got a choice between depressed, war-torn Africa and safe, stable Europe, where would you live? Religious zealots would probably want the same things you and I want while they're waiting for their chance to go on a murderous rampage.
    • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -1/+7The purpose of the film is to wake people up that the battle between radical Islamists and the rest of civilization won't end until they win or die. You can't ignore them and pretend there is no battle. They are fighting and they will win unless we stop them.
  • Blackflower, on 03/29/2008, -3/+36I'm sorry but if everyone just folds and gives up when religious extremists threaten them, that will just embolden the extremists to think that intimidation is a legitimate and effective course of action, and it isn't. Totally pathetic, ***** religion.
    • prisoner24601, on 03/29/2008, -3/+6Don't lump all us theists in with these guys. http://digg.com/world_news/Dutch_protesters_agains ...
      • jaznova, on 03/29/2008, -4/+2yeah, actually, don't pretend that most theistic traditions don't have a dirty dirty past (and present). I understand the need to have tools to interface with the universe, but these kinds of mass manipulation are well understood by your masters
        • StGhurka, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4"don't pretend that most theistic traditions don't have a dirty dirty past (and present)."

          He didn't.
    • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -16/+2people have no right to insult the quran, it is turly offensive and racist
      if i made fun of stephan hawkings book god delusion you ppl would have a fit
      • cygnus2112, on 03/29/2008, -1/+12People make fun of Stephen Hawkings all the time. The difference is, millions of astronomers don't take to the streets and start burning effigies, posters, and start randomly killing those who joked about his wheelchair.

        Well, and the simple fact that noone has used Stephen Hawking as justification to mass slaughter other human beings. (Yet.)
      • Jawoodyablowme, on 03/29/2008, -1/+7Religion is not a race. You are the racist.
        I have a right to insult any Goddamn thing I want.
        Where's God, by the way? Why is He sitting around doing nothing?
        God = Santa Claus = Easter Bunny = Tooth Fairy = Odin = Zeus = Apollo ...
      • mjoethvitnir, on 03/29/2008, -1/+9Richard Dawkins wrote The God Delusion, not Stephen Hawkins.

        And if you criticise The God Delusion it's probably because you don't understand it, but even so noone would threaten to murder you and your family for what you have to say about it.
      • weeFred, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8I've never heard of anybody being killed or even threatened for insulting the god delusion or brief history. People have every right to debate/insult any ideology they want, would you say hating nazis was racist too? they're all just ideologies, but some think they are above insult because they call themselves religions.
      • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -6/+2"Where's God, by the way? Why is He sitting around doing nothing? " god is doing nothing? god is doing everything, he controls reality. and your reality is a godless one. and my reality is im going to die and go to heaven.
        • weeFred, on 03/29/2008, -1/+6Prove it.
          • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -3/+1the fact that we dont understand the universe proves there is a god
          • DaffyDuck, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3The fact that you wrote that comment proves you are an idiot. Not understanding something is not proof of anything other than we haven't figured it out yet.
          • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -2/+1the fact is we havent figured anything out about the universe and never will until your dead.....idiot
          • DaffyDuck, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2We've figured out a lot about the universe. Since you have your head buried in the sand you would never know it though.
          • afterlife23, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1we know little bits here and there, but we will never know the complete truth until death...thats why i believe in god.
      • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2You have a mental illness.
    • Deveak, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2You mean ***** them, not everyone that is religious uses violence or shoves their beliefs down your throat, just the jerks and they get all the attention. Some of us just keep to ourselves.
  • burkay, on 03/29/2008, -26/+7As long as insulting a race or a religion is part of "freedom of speech", threats and protests will be part of the "religion of peace".
    There is a vast amount of difference between "being free" and "hurting others". If all muslims were terrorists... actually if 1 percent of all muslims were terrorists I could "tolerate" this hate-movie. But with hundreds of millions of innocent muslim that will be prejudiced because of this movie, there is no way this piece of junk can be accepted as freedom.
    • diggrnumber1, on 03/29/2008, -1/+25freedom of speech is more important than freedom of religion. it is in fact a prerequisite to freedom of religion, as we can't have freedom of religion without freedom of speech.
      • burkay, on 03/29/2008, -16/+2so, we must first insult each other's religion so that we can learn how to tolerate each other's religion?
        • diggrnumber1, on 03/29/2008, -0/+11read the constitution. it's called the first amendment.
          • burkay, on 03/30/2008, -1/+1well it is "your" constitution. my constitution does not allow me to insult a religion or race causing civil disorder and provocating minorities.
    • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/29/2008, -2/+13by threats and protests you mean murder and bombs.

      If 1% of muslims were terrorists that would be 10,000,000 terrorists, so if there were 10,000,000 terrorists you'd then acknowledge there's an extremism problem? That's tender.
    • mannajar, on 03/29/2008, -1/+10The fanatic crazies WITHIN Islam are the ones who insult the religion and who create prejudice against innocent muslims. The film only documents this phenomenon.

      And your response? You attack free speech and the very people who expose this rot! You seem to want to keep it hushed up!! (Which in effect protects the fantaic crazies.) I think you should thank the film-makers for bringing greater exposure and awareness to this intolerable situation. Now *that* would be an admirable response from the muslim community. Instead we get *death threats*.
      • novaculus, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8Exactly correct. The size of the elephant in the room is monstrous. Apparently so-called "moderate, peaceful" Muslims are so offended by a movie that quotes the Qura'n while graphically displaying the horrific handiwork of their fellow Muslims that their protests are heard around the world. Yet they apparently feel no such insult or disrespect to their religion when Islamist terrorists actually commit mass murder in the name of their "peaceful" religion, judging by the sound of silence with which so-called "moderate, peaceful" Muslims respond to Islamist acts of terror and mass murder.

        So to "moderate, peaceful" Muslims a movie critical of terrorist murderers and the source of their inspiration is worthy of worldwide condemnation and suppression, even punishment (off with his head!). The terrorists themselves, and their acts of terror, not so much. The magnitude of the moral inversion staggers the rational mind. (Irrational minds remain oblivious.)
    • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10It's not a hate movie. It's a very objective look at the reality of Islam. Take another look. It's not propaganda.
    • pitlord, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5Muslims spread more insults and hate against other races and religions than any other group in history. Even the Nazis could learn a few lessons about spreading lies and hate from these people.
      -_-
      • Stevanoski, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3Also, if it was not for Israel unifying their hatred they would be at constant war with each other.
  • hollyminkowski, on 03/29/2008, -2/+10There are some nutty lines in the Old Testament (Torah) but at least no one has taken them seriously and acted in accordance ..at least not since the Middle Ages.
    • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -11/+2I challange you to point out one nutty thing wriiten in the quran
      • cygnus2112, on 03/29/2008, -1/+14"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives." Surat Mohammed:4

        8:12-13,17 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

        2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.

        9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

        47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

        62:6 Say: "O ye that stand on Judaism! If ye think that ye are friends to God, to the exclusion of (other) men, then express your desire for Death, if ye are truthful!"

        5:36 The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

        etc etc..
        • Schpariel, on 03/29/2008, -7/+2You're just taking these verses out of context, Troll harder.

          8:12-16:
          When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment. That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 8:12-16)

          Hence when read in its textual context the verse is referring to smiting in the time of BATTLE.

          [2:216] Fighting may be imposed on you, even though you dislike it. But you may dislike something which is good for you, and you may like something which is bad for you. GOD knows while you do not know.

          9:5 - "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush." Quran 9:5

          According to Muslim historian At- Tabari the above verse was revealed for a few sick pagans who converted to Islam not for all pagans or non-Muslims. The prophet recommended them to live in a valley in North of Medina where the climate is beneficial for their health and asked his shepherd to care of them. After recovering, they killed him and his herd and mutilated his body then runaway. God commended to Muslims to punish these perpetrators.

          47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. (Yusuf Ali Translation, Quran 47:4)

          62:6 & 62:7 Say (O Muhammad): O ye who are Jews! If ye claim that ye are favored of Allah apart from (all) mankind, then long for death if ye are truthful. But they will never long for it because of all that their own hands have sent before, and Allah is Aware of evil-doers.

          This one is also taken out of context, 62:6 & 62:7 should be quoted together

          5:36 - As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.

          Oh and the last one isn't 5:36, 5:36 is this:
          As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.
          • cygnus2112, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8They're not taken out of context. Your illustration of more of the text only makes the beliefs even more scary and nutty.
          • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -0/+6"a few sick pagans"
            And how many billions is that?
        • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -6/+1call me cruel but those are my favorite verses. if you believe the concept of one god the quran makes perfect sense and athiest can't deny this fact
          • cygnus2112, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4In most people's beliefs, slaughter of human beings is not God's work. Even the majority of Christians and Muslims gloss over those parts of the holy texts as if they didn't exist or if they're embarrassed by the brutality caused by righteous zealotry in the history of their chosen religion.

            Not that I'm advocating atheism. Some of the worst atrocities have been committed by godless demagogs like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. But even then, it can be related to forms of organized religion, can't it?
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4You fail.
    • Wacer, on 03/29/2008, -3/+9Th Islams have two different books of the quran. They overlap each other but one was written before the other. The book of Mecca and the other of Medina. One is way more violent than the other. Since they say Muhammad can't be wrong, both are correct. Dual divinity. It's OK to talk peace and it's OK to blow up your neighborhood grocery store without guilt at the same time.
      Imagine having two sets of laws that contradict each other, in parts. No wonder they never get anywhere.
      • cowman, on 03/29/2008, -3/+6Umm wrong. There is only 1 book. The Mecca and Medina thing is used to identify when and where the surahs were "revealed" to the prophet. It's a method of categorization. The Meccan surahs were mostly "revealed" during the early part of Muhammad's prophethood when Muslims have to live and practice in secret. The Medinan(?) surahs were "revealed" after his move to from Mecca to Medina where he started laying the foundations of a Muslim Nation. The characteristics of these two types of surahs tend to reflect the different needs of the religion/nation during different phases of its development.
    • Rizmaster, on 03/29/2008, -1/+3Because there's nobody out there who quotes Leviticus anymore to prove any kind of point about gay people or anything even remotely like that.

      /sarcasm
  • funkyjunk3, on 03/29/2008, -2/+30Available on Google Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-294954647 ...

    May not last for long though.
  • ComstockGordon, on 03/29/2008, -6/+9To be honest Thieu clip on liveleak didn't bring anything new to the table. George Bush and "the war on terror" have been subversively propagating anti-Islamic messages for nearly eight years now. This video just cut straight to the point.
    • genericcynic, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3The message is quite obvious. BUT the sources are mostly from the Quran and Mid East TV. Most media in the Mid East are censored (or state controlled), so the content are supported by states...

      Go ahead, be more upset by the Dutch movie than by e.g. antisemitism literally inspired by Nazi Germany, which is quite common in the Muslim world. (Reprints of e.g. Protocols of Zion/Mein Kampf, etc, etc.)
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1The kiss-of-death for radical Islamists is being strongly anti-semitic more than anything else. Now that the Jews have their own country there is no way Muslims will be able to dominate the world.
      • genericcynic, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2Huh? I can't understand what you write?

        My point was that the MAINSTREAM media was horrbily antisemitic in muslim countries (and it is preached in mosques even in the west).

        Complaining about anti islamic movies It is like KKK members complaining about white trash-jokes.
  • funkyjunk3, on 03/29/2008, -2/+6http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)

  • 3rdDay, on 03/29/2008, -1/+25This is sad. I watched most of the film yesterday and to be honest didn't think much of it, it didn't really have much to say except that Islam and terrorism are sometimes linked and took 17 minutes to say that. The fact that LiveLeak had to take it down due to threats is disturbing. I didn't particularly agree with the film, but the makers have freedom of speech and freedom of press so they can both comment and distribute their content as they see fit. If someone disagrees with what they say then the answer to the films makers is criticism and dialogue, not threats and violence.
    • provoko, on 03/29/2008, -1/+6Extremely disturbing. It's called abusing the fear terrorism has instlled in mind of all westeners and even other muslims.
    • indicas, on 03/29/2008, -5/+6I agree. I'm not defending the actions described in the video but you can make such a movie about nearly any religion with the same results. This came off as purely anti-Islamic propaganda, a snuff film.
      • notveryoriginal, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5If you're going to talk about the problems with Islam then it will sound "anti-Islamic". Snuff? Please. Democracy is anti Islamic.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+6It's not propaganda. It's all factual. None of it is opinion. It's all real.
      • novaculus, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3"...you can make such a movie about nearly any religion with the same results."

        Staggering ignorance and stupidity. Name one other religion whose followers have committed even a tiny fraction of the terrorist violence and murder committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. Choose any Bible verses you want, regardless of whether they are used as justification for terror in the modern world. Where will you get the footage of Christian atrocities to match those of the Islamist terrorists?

        Place your hands, palms upright, on your shoulders. Push really, really hard with your hands and strain to move your bowels. If suddenly you can see and hear, and smell something besides your own *****, you will have succeeded in removing your head from your ass.
  • diggrnumber1, on 03/29/2008, -3/+14the forces of suppression have won out against free speech. by shunning free speech, the extremists that have sent the death threats may have unintentionally hurt their own cause. if the nazi hatemongers that made this film hadn't gotten this publicity, nobody would ever take them seriously. thus, by attacking free speech, they are unintentionally supporting increased anti-islamic sentiment. they have increased their divide with the West.
    • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5They haven't increased their divide with the West, they have only made it more visible. That was the point of the film, by the way. Everybody wants to pretend Islamic radicals are not the threat they they are. Their goal is to take over every nation on earth. And they are willing to die for their cause. And more importantly, they don't care who dies with them. Be it Muslim women and children or Christians.
    • pitlord, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1You don't get it, do you?
      ><
      THE MUSLIM TERRORISTS ARE THE NAZIS!
      -_-
      If you even understood the definition of fascism and nazism and islamism you'd understand the comparison and you'd stop calling a free speech capitalist a "nazi."
      o.o
      Besides, you seem to think that the enemy cares what the western, secular world thinks about them and that they are "unintentionally" increasing their divide with the west. They DON'T want to be our "friends."
      -_-
      Don't you libtards get it yet?
      ><
      They want to kill YOU and rape your girls and women.

  • treelovinhippie, on 03/29/2008, -1/+45The people threatening obviously have no idea how the Internet works.

    Here's a play-by-play that might be useful:

    1) Once something is uploaded on the Internet, it will NEVER be fully removed.
    2) Marketing 101 >>> Any publicity is good publicity.
    3) So to put 2 and 2 together: If you threaten the makers of content online, then others become intrigued as to why and what the controversy is... so they find it wherever it is still hiding online, download it, and watch it.
    4) The more you threaten, the more publicity it gets, the more views it gets, the more dissent against those threatening.

    Simple stuff peoples.
    • JohnFlux, on 03/29/2008, -0/+6Indeed. The film sounds pretty crap, tbh, and is only 17 minutes long. But now I pretty much have to download it to see what the controversy is about :)
    • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1Nice summation.

      Marketing can be a non-violent force for good.

      As far as I am concerned, the sooner the world matures beyond the influence of all of these Bronze Age Cults, the better.
  • BobbyMC, on 07/21/2008, -3/+7Pussies. Nothing worse.
    • diggrnumber1, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1i support free speech, but i don't blame them for taking it down. what would you do if you were in fear of dying because of some you barely even heard of?
    • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2Here is the radical Muslim point of view clearly stated so there can be no doubt.
      To Geert,
      Verily, our religion will stay the same till the Day of Judgment. We are happy that there are people like you to expose themselves to the wrath of Allah. We are also happy because it makes us comfortable knowing that there are true enemies of Islaam as Allah has mentioned in the Qur’aan.
      We are not interested in condemning this or condemning that, but we are interested in letting you know that Islaam will dominate all of Europe, including your hometown, and the Jizyah will be established upon your Country, leaving all of the disbelievers in humiliation until they come to Islaam. Let us remind that there are thousands of Muslims living near you; so always expect the unexpected.
      Near the end of your film, you wrote,
      For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses in the Qur’an.
      This statement of yours proves a verse in the Qur’aan:
      And never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their Millah (way of life/form of religion). (2:120)
      So by Allah’s grace, He has shown us another practical example of a Kaafir (i.e., that would be you Geert) who will never be pleased with the Muslims until we follow their form of religion.
      By Allah, the only thing that we will tear is your heart, the heart of democracy, and the heart of those who fight the Muslims. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) promises dominance, and so we too promise dominance. And how will you be O Geert, when Prophet Jesus returns to earth from the heavens and destroys Christianity and wages Jihaad against the world successfully?
      That time is coming very soon.
      You also said,
      The Government insists that you respect Islam, but Islam has no respect for you.
      One can write volumes on this, but in short: Islaam doesn’t respect the disbelieving Governments.
      You said,
      Islam wants to rule, submit, and seeks to destroy our western civilization.
      Correct.
      Just as your civilization seeks to destroy ours, our civilization seeks to devastate yours. Take a guess as to when we’ll stop.
      You wrote,
      Now the Islamic ideology has to be defeated.
      As long as this world exists, you can never destroy the Islaamic ideology; and our ideology is meant for expansion.
      You wrote,
      Stop Islamisization, Defend our Freedom.
      We say: stop democracy, and defend your basic human rights.
      But we don’t hate you for your freedoms as we don’t consider those freedoms. We hate you for your disbelief and defiance.
      So keep warning, and we too will keep warning. Islaam denounces Democracy, Islaam denounces Christians and Jews, Islaam denounces the corruption of the disbelievers upon the earth, and Islaam is coming to crush the armies of disbelief and smash the false governments and religions of the world to bring humanity from darkness into light.
      Although we hate you for the sake of Allah and pray for your destruction, we are happy that you made this film because no matter how negative the disbelievers try to portray Islaam, in the end, it is Islaam that spreads far and wide. The media in America did its best to portray Islaam as an evil religion after the 9/11 attacks, but just look to how many thousands of people accepted Islaam after the invasion. So Islaam will spread all over Europe, and we will win in the end and we will humiliate you in the end.
      Congratulations Geert. Your movie has created more Mujaahideen amongst the Muslims.
      • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1Wow. Imagine what it's like in this guy's skull, day to day! To be so filled with hate that you can't see straight. That's one definition of Hell.

        Another would be to be subject to the whims of crazies like him. These maniacs will not be happy until all of us live as slaves in the hell on Earth he has sworn to create.

        Very sad. But it will never happen. And the crazier these Bronze Age Fantasy Warriors get, the easier it is to catch them.

        So, knock yourself out CoolWind. At the rate you're going, soon you will be doing multiple life-sentences in solitary confinement in a prison run by the very western democracies you despise. And that's if you're lucky.

        We're not afraid of you.
  • tricks574, on 03/29/2008, -1/+10Freedom of speech is not contradictory to hate or insult, death threats are contradictory to peace. Reacting harsher than almost any other religious group does when being insulted is contradictory to being a peaceful religion. People come out with films not only insulting Christianity but going so far as to debunk its events and yet they do have to fear for their life, yet Islam is the religion of peace? I understand it is probably a horrible film that unfairly portrays a religion, and I understand that most Muslims are peaceful people, but that does not change the fact that this group of people were intimidated into giving up their right to free speech, and no matter how peaceful most Muslims are, there are people who will use that religion to further their own goals. As kowtowing to these demands only advances their power over not just ourselves but the people they oppress.

    Whether or not you agree with this film, it is apparent that there are people exploiting peoples belief in Islam to do harm to others, and they will continue to do so until someone stands up to them. Not stands up militarily,as these people have warped and twisted the Islamic culture into something that cannot be defeated by military strength. We have to stand up by showing that these tactics will not work, and show that we will not bend to their will. A man only has the rights he is willing and able to protect, and one of the most important rights is the right to express yourself as you see fit.
    • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Why not actually watch the video before commenting on it?
  • Trojan, on 03/29/2008, -22/+9Buried for inciting cultural hatred and violence. Remember folks, there are a billion Muslims on Earth. The vast majority want to go about their daily lives without violence and political strife. Don't be immensely ignorant and take the imagery in this film somehow representative of the entire culture.

    And if you think that video wasn't racist xenophobic propaganda, I could show you some Nazi videos speculating on the number of Jews in Germany etc.
    • buddypriefert, on 03/29/2008, -5/+6Don't be blinded by the past and wake up to the present pal.
    • Wacer, on 03/29/2008, -3/+4Buried your comment for the being another typical user that has to use the anti-hatred, anti-violence, anti-do-anything-about-anything comments that will not solve a thing. Are you also against freedom of speech and freedoms in general.
    • KlogereEndGrim, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2If I find a random muslim and insults his faith, I bet he will get violent with me. I speak from personal experience.
      I do not find this to be the general reaction from other religions.
    • Idiggapony, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Do your Nazi videos also show German Jews blowing up trains, flying planes into buildings, and beheading people?

      Did the Jews respond to the showing of these videos by threatening to murder everyone in the countries from which they originated?
  • FMWatkins, on 03/29/2008, -9/+31Islam contains commands to wage war on non-Muslims and believes it's faith is not only superior to others, but MUST come to dominate the world. Sure, it contains 'nice' bits but they are outweighed by the calls to religious imperialism and conquest.

    I've studied the Koran and it's full of sh*t. Other religions aren't much better, but Islam is the worst I've come across.
    As others have said, this is a free speech issue. Free speech is superior to religion. Indeed, the idea of free speech is getting opinions and theories out in the public forum, so they can be debated openly and fairly (without intimidation and disinfo).

    http://www.reformislam.org/
    http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

    One would only want to silence debate on an issue if those people have something to hide. This happened in the UK on Channel 4 with a 'debate' about those Danish cartoons. At the end there was a poll. The majority voted for showing the images.

    Channel 4 declined.
    • kkiram, on 03/29/2008, -9/+5you've 'studied' the koran? you've actually read the koran? or did you just read about it online? because i'm sure everything you read online is reliable. especially hate sites. Yea. I'm sure they're all reliable and are no where near biased. Gotta love them haters. Always full of reliable information. I'm pretty sure they all have a PHD in theology or at least have studied the Koran (or whatever subject of choice) extensively.
      • cathpah, on 03/29/2008, -1/+2well put. I actually did study Islam and the Quran in college at University of Wisconsin as a Religious Studies major, and while it may have it's faults...I wouldn't say that it's any more faulted than either of the other 2 Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Judaism). While I can't claim to have read the entire Quran, I can say that I've read many large chunks of it, and obviously that would be the most contraversial/important.

        Where you get your information changes a lot of things. Hate/Ignorant/Fear sites don't really count as credible research.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5make many assumptions?
      • novaculus, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5I have read the qura'n, and studied Islam. It is inaccurate to refer to Islam as a religion. Islam is the totalitarian ideology of a 7th century warlord, specifically designed to consolidate and expand his empire. The first paragraph of FM's comment is accurate.

        So what next? Claiming, as the racist Arab supremacists do, that one cannot understand the Qura'n unless fluent in classical Arabic? Bring it on, kkiram. Explain to us why FM's assessment is wrong.
    • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -8/+6anyone who belive what you said is an idiot. the quran does not say that. muslims lived side by side with jews and christians for thousands of years. the quran tells you to destroy those that actively fight your religion.
      • yiffzer, on 03/29/2008, -5/+3Very true. FMWatkins is seriously an ignorant idiot.
      • carpespasm, on 03/29/2008, -2/+6First, not thousands of years, not even 2000 years. Second, it's true that there have been times where Christians and Jews were allowed to live in Muslim areas, but this was often only because they were seen as following the same god, and often they had to pay some extra tax for not being Muslim. Lets not forget about the crusades, which weren't the highlight of religious tolerance by either faith fighting.
      • sk11, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8Re: carpespasm
        Jews and christians were only allowed to live there because they submitted to islamic rule. They were forced to pay a special tax to the muslims, that's why they were left alone.
      • novaculus, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5"anyone who belive what you said is an idiot. the quran does not say that. muslims lived side by side with jews and christians for thousands of years. the quran tells you to destroy those that actively fight your religion."

        Mind-boggling mendacity or staggering culpable ignorance. I say the former: you are a bald-faced liar.

        "Jews and christians were only allowed to live there because they submitted to islamic rule. They were forced to pay a special tax to the muslims, that's why they were left alone."

        Actually, they were barely tolerated, and subjected to regular acts of humiliation and violence, unable to access Islamic courts to redress injustices and crimes, prohibited from building churches or even repairing existing ones. For example, while collecting the jizyah, the Muslim tax collector was required to humiliate and assault the Christian or Jewish dhimmi, to forcibly remind them of their subjugation:

        ""the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck." Al-Zamakhshari

    • Schpariel, on 03/29/2008, -8/+3So reformislam.org and themiddleeastnow.com/ _musnazi.html_ are reliable and unbiased sources for backing up your argument?
      Where did you study the Qura'n? at FOX news? You don't even know Arabic to study the Qur'an in the first place!
      • notveryoriginal, on 03/29/2008, -0/+7Hehheh. Some love to say that you cannot study the Koran unless you speak Arabic. Funny stuff. Muslims say that all the time. A tired argument.
        • Stevanoski, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2I agree with your post 100%. However, I have had friends point out that the Koran they have does not mention the beheading etc. of infidels. It is my understanding the Koran shipped to the States is different from the one the Muslims use in the rest of the world. Have you heard the same or am I completely off on this one.
  • DavidGX, on 03/29/2008, -10/+11All religions suck. This one included.
  • knight666, on 03/29/2008, -9/+10I'm going to go with my dad here:
    "If people are going to respond violently to Fitna, that just means Wilders was right. And that's scary."

    ***** you Wilders, you media whore.
    • Wacer, on 03/29/2008, -1/+12You contradict yourself. If your going with your dad and Wilders was right then why do you bash Wilders? What a retarded statement.
  • zivarik, on 03/29/2008, -5/+2watch it here:

    http://digg.com/world_news/Fitna_the_movie_an_anti ...
    • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -3/+5It sucked. A pretty corny propaganda piece IMO.
      It reminded me of one of those Nazi films but not as well made.
  • NonLeftistDiggr, on 03/29/2008, -5/+26Muslims aren't showing up in Europe just to try to get a better life and live peacefully on their own, but thanks for the feel good comment propaganda none the less. There are wide spread problems with a lot of them not making any effort to integrate into the societies they join, meanwhile taking advantage of the career and/or generous state entitlement opportunities offered there, and very gradually force muslim customs on the local population/culture/government. Incrementalism is rarely recognized.

    It is different in America (why I don't know), because there are many muslims, they are well integrated, take education seriously, and don't try to disproportionately shift the culture..... or murder people very often over print.
    • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -8/+9Tighten up the borders and kick out the bad apples.
      This "film" was just obvious hate propaganda that only serves to throw gas on the fire.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5If you feel hate when you see this movie, don't blame it on the movie. There's no hate in there. It's all in you.
    • provoko, on 03/29/2008, -2/+6The Muslims here in America are pretty cool. Except there was that one story a while ago on the news about Muslim women forcing this Ivy leauge school in giving them special women only hours. I thought that was strange.

      You come into a country to live in their laws and customs, you don't change them, you RESPECT them. I wouldn't go to Japn or India and change every custom to my own or force them to have my laws from back home.
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Every muslim I've met in america has been cool. Some of them were really nice. I worked with a bunch of them at a gas station when I was 15. The boss was an ***** but it didn't have anything to do with him being muslim.
      • walruspanzer, on 03/29/2008, -2/+1I saw a plane full of people gasp in absolute horror at the sight of a late-boarding Iraqi man. During the same trip, I saw a TSA security guard take an entire Muslim family and pat them down and trifle through all of their bags and took absolutely EVERYTHING out... in front of everyone. Most Muslims that I talk to try to lie low during American flights. I'd say that most just try to get by and radical fundamentalism, like all religions, has created negativity towards the Islamic faith.
    • genericcynic, on 03/29/2008, -2/+2I'd guess that USA/Canada are better integrating and handling people with different cultures; it is what they do since their start! A big influence might be the left-leaning states in Europe, which means harder job market.
      • madoc62, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Bingo! He gets it in one! Europe, in general, does a piss-poor job of assimilating foreigners. In particular, assimilating the foreigners it brings in to do its labor. They want the Arabs to come into Europe, spend the bulk of their working lives laboring there for relatively chicken feed wages, and then quietly go back to their mother countries so the Euros don't have to pay for them in their old age. Assimilating these "guest laborers" is not usually part of the deal. Thus, they're always on the outside and are effectively kept down, economically. No wonder then, that the Arabs in Europe wind up sticking to their own ways and want to inflict them on the rest of Europe. Throw in the vastly higher Arab birth rates in Europe and it's not gonna be to much longer before they'll be able to outvote Europeans at their own game.
        The way around this? Stop Arab immigration into Europe and assimilate the Arabs already there. Stop treating them as essentially second class citizens and allow them to earn a full and equal membership in a society of _European_ culture, not Sharia/ Muslim/ Arab culture.
        Of course, for this to happen there'd have to be some huge changes in how Europe runs things economically - i.e. it'd have to essentially ditch the Socialism its been addicted to for over a century now - so that's probably not gonna happen.
        Instead, the Arabs will keep immigrating, keep unassimilating and eventually will become such a threat that the Europeans will need to do something dire about it. Whether they'll do this in time to save Europe from becoming a caliphate is an open question. And whether that direness will invoke the relatively mild Konzentrationslagers or something worse is also an open question.
    • Wacer, on 03/29/2008, -6/+6In America, socialism as not taken hold yet. As soon as the Democrats and (peace, love, flowers) people get a hold of the system, it will be steer towards a handout for the pawns to be in place. When there are enough of them, they want to overtake the system. Too bad the women, gays, other religions don't speak out about this because this type of system will make their lives a living hell.
    • sk11, on 03/29/2008, -2/+3That's because Americans frighten them. If muslims were as vocal in the US as they are in Europe, they'd get shot dead!
      • madoc62, on 03/29/2008, -1/+3No, it's because American culture does a bang-up job of assimilating its immigrants while Europe does a piss-poor job of that. As they become "Americanized" they no longer feel the outsider and they realize the greater benefits of doing things "our" way and the disadvantages in continuing to do things their way. That kinda takes the heat out of wanting to recreate "the old country" in their new one. That's the advantage of assimilation and the Europeans have never been to good at that. Which is why so many of them wound up over here.
        • sk11, on 03/30/2008, -1/+1Oh you mean like Malcolm X and the nation of islam? Yes, they were so pleased with how great they were treated. I'm sure they fully embraced their Americaness and were completely indifferent to their African roots, right? Yup, no calls for a separate America for African-Americans. Relations between ethnic communities in America are just peachy, no race riots or anything nasty like that, huh?
          /sarcasm
          • madoc62, on 03/30/2008, -1/+2Sk,
            Never said we were perfect but we do manage to do a heckuvalot better at it than the Europeans. You'll also note that most such "separatist" groups here in the US are extremely marginalized and out on the fringe. Over in Europe? It's a different deal. Just ask most French about how well things are going with their banlieues.
  • provoko, on 03/29/2008, -2/+13So sad. Threatening good people that have nothing to do with the movie.

    We should start making death threats against Muslims who criticize other people and religions, and I know a lot of them, I've seen their videos.
    • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -2/+3We should start to threaten muslims? I thought we were already blowing them away like hotcakes in Iraq.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4No. They are blowing each other away in Iraq. Shiites and Sunnis can't even live next door to each other. Religion of Peace - NOT!
    • steeeeve, on 03/29/2008, -2/+0That would make you an enemy of free speech too.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2Making death threats does not fall under freedom of speech.
        • steeeeve, on 03/29/2008, -0/+0Did you read the post i replied to?
          A little hint:
          "We should start making death threats against Muslims who criticize other people and religions"
          That was, what i replied to
  • homersaysdoh, on 03/29/2008, -12/+15***** Muslims, they are worse than Scientology IMO. I would LOVE to see anon go after these assholes.
    • afterlife23, on 03/29/2008, -9/+7your head will be cut off straight away
      • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2Some people could conclude that you just threatened homersaysdoh with getting his head cut off. Are you sure that's the impression you want to leave?

        You also created the impression that you believe cutting people's heads off is ok. It's not. Not ever.

        Listen, the tide has turned on all of this intimidation crap. Some people might have been afraid initially, but you can't kill us all. You can't even kill .001% of us.

        We hunt down and arrest our own killers - we get them all eventually, and they are even harder to find than a screaming Mullah, believe me. We are very good at this. Western police forces will eventually hunt every last one of you Islamo-fascists down using 21st century technology, and eventually, we will remove you people from the system. We will make Islam a religion of peace whether you like it or not. Just like secular-humanist democracies did with Christianity. You can count on it.

        With all of your ranting and threats, you have immunized us against intimidation. You can cow a web-site, but that's nothing - they curl up their toes at the slightest provocation. But threatening individuals, and governments, and democracy itself, that's another thing.

        We are not afraid of you anymore. You have exhausted our patience. Your own book tells you we are long-suffering. Well, that's over. We have terror fatigue now. So, if you break our laws, you threaten our governments, you try to harm us... our law-enforcement institutions will come for you. They will come for you because we will send them. And when they get you, you will spend the rest of your lives in prison. And then your faith will be tested, you will see.
        • DeltaFyr, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1This was clearly sarcasm. Your long winded reply was wasted, but thanks; I had a laugh. Knowing that I'm being protected by constant spying makes me sleep well at night.
    • ZeroFive1, on 03/29/2008, -1/+3Yeah, except Islam isn't a money making scam, unless you call giving 5% of your income to poor people a money making scam.
      • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2hahahah you don't think some of those imams have Swiss bank accounts????
        you might want to google that...
      • homersaysdoh, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3It is not the scam thing that pisses me off so much as it is the silencing of something that they find "offensive".
        Honestly I am offended by the Quoran but I would in no way try to silence muslims over it. It is called freedom of speech. ***** off it you have a problem with it.
      • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1How naive are you? Islamo-fascism is fueled by men like Mullahs who crave religious power over others. Just because they aren't obviously paid in money with paper receipts doesn't change that fact.

        The fundamental rationale for ALL religious organizations, especially the Bronze Age Cults is power through social control. And in that regard, money is just a form of currency. Islam is about maintaining power and social order, keeping it concentrated in the hands of men. From the craziest lazy-eyed psycho-Mullahs, right down to the man in the street who forces his wife to stay in the house for the term of her natural life.

        So now explain to me how the Bronze Age Cults like Islam are not brutal scams worthy of the attention of Anonymous?
  • vanzan, on 03/29/2008, -18/+11I am a Muslim and I feel deeply offended by this movie because it is filled with bigotry, hatred and negative stereotypes of 1.3 Billion Muslims.
    It really stinks when I see those double standards here and in reddit.

    I wonder what would the response be if the movie was doing the same to gays, or shouting N words about Black people or praising Hitler for the Holocaust.

    I remember in Egypt they produced a movie about the crimes of Jews and it was shut down because Anti-Defamation League (a Jewish organization) which is located in the US managed to convince the world that it was spreading anti-semtism and every bought it. But when something against Islam is produced, everyone reaches to grab it and applaud freedom of speech for spreading it.

    These double standards are what cause most Muslims to despise the west.
    • Jawoodyablowme, on 03/29/2008, -10/+18And how many Jews rioted and murdered folks because of that movie?
      None.
      "I wonder what would the response be if the movie was doing the same to gays, or shouting N words about Black people or praising Hitler for the Holocaust."
      Peaceful protests.

      Pointing at others and saying that they would react the same way (when they haven't) is not an argument, excuse, or any justification what so ever for violent behavior.

      No one has yet mentioned TIbet, as far as I can see. The Dali Lama told his people to stop the violence or he would resign as head of state. Period. He is the only religious leader that I have ever herd of doing that. He actually acted like a peace loving leader of a peace loving religion. That's how you _prove_ to the World the values that you hold dear.
      I haven't seen nor heard of any Islamic religious leader making that sort of strong statement. Yes, there have been weakly worded letters from some Muslim leaders, but nothing with any teeth.
      Sorry, until I see Islam do what the Tibetans did, I will consider the Muslim world to be a bunch of phonies.
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -10/+2What movie did the muslims riot and murder people at?
        The jews would never riot and murder because they'd send america in to do the dirty work.
        "The Dali Lama told his people to stop the violence or he would resign as head of state. Period. "
        And how did that work out for him?
        "Sorry, until I see Islam do what the Tibetans did, I will consider the Muslim world to be a bunch of phonies."
        So until they start acting like some guy you heard about they're phonies?
        So who else isn't a phony, other than the dali lama of course in your estimation?
        Isreal?
      • vanzan, on 03/29/2008, -8/+3"And how many Jews rioted and murdered folks because of that movie?"
        They don't need to, all they have to do is call on their propaganda and you know as everyone else knows that everyone will listen to them. On the other hand, Muslims are ignored and this keeps building up and up until some people react in a way that no true Muslim would agree to.

        "I haven't seen nor heard of any Islamic religious leader making that sort of strong statement"
        Oh Boy, on what Planet are you living my Friend.
        Quit living on FOX as your only resource for info about Islam and Muslims, Please.

        FYI the US is using the Tibet as pressure against China, so you will see all of the Western media voicing every move and word coming out of there. But when it comes to issues in the Middle East you wont see much, if any.
        "Sorry, until I see Islam do what the Tibetans did, I will consider the Muslim world to be a bunch of phonies."
        Muslims don't need your apology. I suggest you stick to stories about Busta Rhymes and monkeys riding dirt bikes. That should be compatible with how your brain operates.
    • Zerstoren, on 03/29/2008, -4/+13I'm Jewish and I have no problem with anti jewish propaganda. Free speech and all. People should be able to disagree with anything. It's just when it turns violent is when the problems start.
    • genericcynic, on 03/29/2008, -5/+6"praising Hitler for the Holocaust."

      What a fun coincidence! There ARE quotes from muslims in the movie praising the holocaust... (Note that most media are state controlled in the Mid East, so it isn't just individual opinions.)

      But seriously, you are a hypocrite. Read up on the Mid East and "Protocols of Zion" on Wikipedia, for instance. This movie is nothing.
      • vanzan, on 03/29/2008, -6/+4"But seriously, you are a hypocrite. Read up on the Mid East and "Protocols of Zion" on Wikipedia, for instance. This movie is nothing."

        I will gladly call you an ignorant because you did not bother to read the Quran, Instead you opted to take things out of context and generalize your opinion. That is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.

        If you read the Quran then you have the right to compare what's in the movie to what's in it. But if you watch it then make your opinion, and back another opinion of yours to an article in Wikipedia!!
        • genericcynic, on 03/29/2008, -3/+2And I call you a brainless flamer... my comment was relevant to what I commented on, yours were not.

          I just noted that there are many times worse antisemitism in the muslim world, based in religion AND copied from Nazi Germany, then any anti islamic arguments you can find in mainstream media. Google: Iran Frankfurt books
    • Wacer, on 03/29/2008, -4/+11What about Islam threatening the Pope? What about thinking that your religion is so great that people can justify destroying part of New York because non Muslims where on Saudi soil? What about Muslims building a mosque next to the Vatican in Italy and non Muslims can't even go to Mecca. Why can't the Christians build a Cathedral next to the center of Mecca? I am sure you don't have answers because it is biased.
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -3/+3"What about Islam threatening the Pope?"
        The whole religion threatened the pope?
      • vanzan, on 03/29/2008, -5/+6Saudi King just came from a visit with the Pope that is considered to be historical.
        The Saudi King just made an initiative to call for understanding between religions which is stemming from the core of Islam. Where is this in Digg?

        • sk11, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4Is that the same country where carrying non-muslim religious books, or worshipping other religions can get you arrested, ARRESTED? I've heard Mugabe claim to be a good man and the Chinese government to be concerned with human rights, but somehow people remain sceptical. Perhaps actions speak far louder than words. If the Saudi king truly cares about other religions, then his country would at least not criminalise them.
        • adrianmonk, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1Anyone can submit an article to Digg. There is nothing stopping you from doing so.

          Don't expect Digg to give it fair treatment, though. Digg readers are not neutral. Any religion is likely to get criticism, not just Islam.
      • ZeroFive1, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5Saudi Arabia has strict laws for going into their country. Really, the only way to get in is to 1. Be related to someone who lives there/works in the oil industry and 2. Pilgrimage.
    • muuhgnoo, on 03/29/2008, -4/+12When you start to be offended by your violent fellow muslim brothers who kill and mutilate in the name of your religion, as much as you are by a stupid 15min movie which looks like some kid did it (poorly) in MS Movie Maker, then we can talk. Until that, just ***** the hell off.

      He, although a right wing, has every right to make such a film undwer out western constitutions, but your violent fellow muslim brothers do not have the right to make death threats because of it. Until you realize killing for islam is *****, there is really nothing out cultures can talk about.
      • Schpariel, on 03/29/2008, -7/+3When you start to be offended by your violent fellow American brothers who kill and mutilate in the name of your country (In Iraq), then we can talk. Until that, just ***** the hell off.
        • carpespasm, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3I've been offended by it since it's start, the civilian death toll in Iraq is appalling and the US is going to deal with this for years to come. Our leadership should be in jail for lying to start a war. Also, we should be able to talk even though we have differing opinions. How else are we supposed to understand where each other is coming from? Not communicating and trying to uncover the truth is what's gotten us where we are already.
          • vanzan, on 03/29/2008, -4/+4"we should be able to talk even though we have differing opinions"
            carperpasm, if you read the Quran. You will find that all of it is presented as dialogue. So, the core of Islam is actually based on understanding and talking things over with those who are different in belief.

            Did you know that tens of Muslim scholars went to the Denmark right after the cartoons and started a huge convention that was open to everyone. The aim of the convention was to start a talk about those offensive cartoons and try to understand each other. It was a failure because the media did not even bother to cover it, thus no one hearing about it.
            So saying that the majority Muslims are not trying to deal with this in a civilize manner is complete Bull crap.

            It will be unfair that I view all Americans based on what Bush is doing. So don't judge us based on a movie or based on actions by 1% of Muslims or based on things that are out of contexts.
          • genericcynic, on 03/30/2008, -0/+0The only muslims I know are from an Asian country. They don't describe that their religious education encouraged questioning like that, at all. (Rather the opposite, in fact.)
        • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -2/+3WTF???
          digg is 90% "Iraq is a genocide" etc etc.
          There are even posts here from Americans decrying "zionism" -- do you not read the very posts you are criticizing?
          (that was rhetorical)
          please!

        • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -3/+3By far, most of the deaths in Iraq are caused by Muslims. Muslims kill Americans (some of whom are Muslim) and Muslims kill and torture and mutilate Muslims who are their neighbors. Don't blame it on America. We deposed Saddam Hussein in hopes of making things better. But it turns out Muslims hate each other as much as they hate Jews and Christians. That's not our fault.
    • steeeeve, on 03/29/2008, -1/+6The response would be tons of ridicule and angry comments, NOT death threats or violence.
    • KlogereEndGrim, on 03/29/2008, -2/+9Your beloved prophet was a theiving, murdering warlord married to an underage girl.
      Such a person should be punished, not looked up to. Your religion is dangerous and unacceptable.
    • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8@ vanzan

      You forgot the second part of your post where you DENOUNCE the Muslims shown in the video.

      THAT is the problem.
  • mrjoanofarc, on 03/29/2008, -3/+14All these bashing comments against the film... why can't we watch it and make up our own minds? Why say, "No. You cannot see this." That's not a free world. And threaten the safety of others? Utterly uncivil.
    • mrjoanofarc, on 03/29/2008, -1/+5Just got finished watching it... not that great of a film at all. There's a major mistake being made in this film: not separating radical-extremist from peaceful Islam. Instead watch the documentary "Obsession" for a much better dissection of the former. Also, most of "Fitna"'s radicalist footage was taken directly FROM "Obsession." Overall, this is a film by one Netherlander who's afraid of his country getting overrun by Muslims. Naturally it makes sense to be scared of ppl who want to kill you if you don't convert to their religion. However, I'm pretty sure most of the 54 million Muslims in Europe are the non-radical kind. Geert is implying they're ALL dangerous.
      • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4There was no point/counterpoint to it. It was a one sided rant. I'm sure the subject would be much more interesting in a better film.
        "Obsession" sounds interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.
      • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Not all Muslims are dangerous. How does that change anything? Do you think it will somehow prevent radical Muslims from taking over in Holland?
  • nullcodes, on 03/29/2008, -2/+8Its easy to rile up the ignorant masses. All of whom are insulting their claimed religion even worse than any film by showing off their own stupidity.

    Those people have no clue about freedom of speech, they don't value it as a fundamental right. That type of stuff won't cross their minds. They have been brainwashed to think a certain way. And they get away with being stupid because they are allowed to.
    • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -4/+2"They have been brainwashed to think a certain way. And they get away with being stupid because they are allowed to."

      Lets invade Iraq to fight for our freedom.
  • sk8ordiemofo, on 03/29/2008, -3/+3This is the thing that annoys me about this whole topic, for example in Britain we have the BNP party who want the Qur'an banned, in America you have a lot of videos like this which show these parts of the Qur'an. But the thing is, a lot of the people don't realise that the Bible is just as, if not more violent. You can't hate on one without hating on the other, you christians that hate on Islam are hypocrites.
    • genericcynic, on 03/29/2008, -1/+0Locally (Sweden), some of the few xians seems to try to recruit the Moslems into their political network to get SOME voting weight... ("Social democrat brotherhood")

      A bit scary, even though we pulled the fangs out of our xians many decades ago. Locally, they even skipped the "Hell theory" out of their religion in trying to look less than inhumane.

      All countries have good and bad sides. This is one of the best things here.
    • muuhgnoo, on 03/29/2008, -0/+7Every Hollywood movie and crime novel is also as violent as the Bible and the Quran. The difference is that today people do _not_ get killed because of a Hollywood movie, a crime novel or the Bible, but they _DO_ get killed because of the Quran. Muslims treat their women as *****... because of the Quran. Practically everything that scares me off Muslims and makes me not want to visit a Muslim country ever in my life... is a direct sequence of you worshipping the Quran. In its wholeness, its like an instruction manual for pervert killers.

      If people today would still get killed because of the Bible, all the same also would apply for the Cristians, but they obviously left their religiously motivated killing spree a few hundreds of years ago, while the Muslims seem to be into it with both legs up to their balls. Instead of criticizing the critics like Wilders, you should join them in order to help the Muslims to get out of their collective extremism. Help them get through a catharsis and abandoning the ***** parts of their religion.
    • Edrick, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1I dislike all religion and dogma equally, no hypocrisy here.
    • Idiggapony, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1If the Christian bible is (again) used to justify genocidal violence against peoples whose traditions do not include it, then the perpetrators of these crimes should receive the same treatment that Muslims receive in "Fitna."
  • Moduliz0r, on 03/29/2008, -1/+10How mature, why is it that these people always resort to death threats...
    • robthom, on 03/29/2008, -5/+4I dont know. Assholes.
      Mabey we should invade them next.
    • muuhgnoo, on 03/29/2008, -1/+11They learned it from Muhammed? Where exactly should they come to the conclusion that violence is bad when their major religious figure and prophet was a violent murderer and paedophile himself? How should their leitmotif sound? DDWMWD? (Dont do what Mohammad would do)
    • Iconoclast25, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5Because they are brainwashed by a cult of primitive savagery which is predicated on the use of violence to grow.
  • cowman, on 03/29/2008, -3/+2I just watched it. All in all I gotta say, I'm disappointed. I mean, that's it? Hardly worth getting excited about. Are we sure the makers of this film aren't exaggerating the threats to himself/his company/whatever just to get more views?
    • CoolWind, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3No doubt it's all anti-Muslim propaganda. Probably perpetrated by the CIA.
      • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1???
      • cowman, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Nope, I'm saying the stuff in the video is well... old. And kinda boring to be honest.
  • NemoNowhere, on 03/29/2008, -1/+2Wow, I looked at the title fast and thought it was in reference to the video game "Star Control"!

    (nerd basement dweller)
  • t4m5t3r, on 03/29/2008, -2/+7typical muslims, all peacefull and dignified until you say someting they dont like and they will threaten to KILL YOU, the wrroying thing is that i know "non radical" muslims, and they agree with the "radical" ones, i think we nee dot address the whole sections, thing, i know there obviously violent anf non violent muslims, but i dont see outrage from the non radicals, that because its only us non muslims that get killed so who give as ***** about that? (although i am fully aware that muslim terrorist are pretty much a "myth" made up to scare impresionable americans!)i think all western countries shouold pass a law, if you live in a western country and have a problem with something from that culture then they should A; get over it, or B: be put on a plane and shipped to any muslim country of their chioce!! (or in short ***** right off) And i can garentee you it would all stop because the people in charge of the religion that tell these people what and when to get upset about something wont be able to make all the money they make in western countrys so they wont want to go NEAR a muslim country!! simple fact! (and i know that people will disagree but how many of these guys live in council house, oh yeah, NONE!!!)
    • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -1/+3Well isn't that just like a Jew?
      /sarc
      Do you realize how foolish you sound - grouping a billion (that's with a "B" - think about it) people into the stereotype that you have ?
      • ZeroOrDie, on 03/29/2008, -0/+1It's because hes a typical cracker.
  • ilgaz, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3No wonder the number of seeds exploded ;)
  • Ev3nt372, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5Similar to why the Danish Muhammad cartoon is a popular avatar.
  • nycmac247, on 03/29/2008, -5/+2hatemongering *****.
    I hate monotheism as much as the next person (who doesn't) but the way to "combat" it isn't to demonize people.
    Might be better to say every every every religious text has certain "interesting" passages and what's most important is that we can live together.
    That being said, no matter what a person believes re: who did 9/11 don't you all find it interesting that instead of asking why our government is ass raping us financially with unnecessary / unwinable wars instead we have to get mad at a new "Them," just as the Cold War ended? Are we really so far gone that we're not allowed to talk about context? Even if guys in caves and no ability to fly a Cessna can pull off 9/11 isn't _our reaction_ to 9/11 far more important? Isn't the true measure of a person / a country what he/she/it does when the chips are down? That video looks like it was done by a white trash meth child - yes, I said it.
  • Nudar, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4Dear LiveLeak,

    Live free or die. (motto of new hampshire)
  • angusm, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3I'm not entirely impressed by the people uploading copies of the video to sharing sites and then crying 'Shame' when it gets removed. It's easy to argue for free speech when you're asking other people to take the risks that result from your actions.
    This seems to me to be a perfect use for BitTorrent: if you believe that this is a film that needs to be seen, then host a copy on your own computer. The best aspect of that is that it's truly democratic: you can see at a glance how many people are prepared to take a stand by counting the number of seeders.
    • DulcetTone, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2I think the point is that if the film is ubiquitous and posted on many sites that cannot police evert upload, there is ultimately NO one to threaten. The wind sings the very awkward truths in this little short, and perhaps the frustrated would-be-threateners will contemplate that their desire to threaten others simply proves that they, at least, reflect the content of the irksome film.
  • notveryoriginal, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Islam sucks.
  • mellomeh, on 03/29/2008, -2/+1Anyone who remembers Jerry Springer: The Opera will know that Muslims aren't the only ones who send death threats.
  • Ricemanstm, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4Everyone knows Islam is nothing more than a cult on steroids, created by a goat groping "prophet" who couldn't score in morgue. Hence his creation of an antil woman male dominated religion. It's greatest threat is education, that's why it flourishes in countries where poverty and illiteracy run rampant.
  • namar777, on 03/29/2008, -1/+1Here we go again with the ( anti-muslim ) wave... don't u think that if there was something the muslims would've done, they would've done it 1400 years ago... why wait this long lol....
  • NWVG, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Direct Mirror: http://www.reimaginememories.com/memory/u:20-m:563
    It won't come down from here(I'm one of the owners)

    While the video is graphic and to many very offensive the idea that it should be censored by intimidation is an even more offensive and disturbing idea. The movie should create a debate, and those who are opposed to it should create a movie, essay, etc. of their own to invalidate it's arguments instead of threatening to kill people.
  • xNIBx, on 03/29/2008, -5/+1I can easily make a similar video about christianity which shows radical christians say similar ***** and quote similar crap from the bible. Radical muslims do nothing more than what radical christians did a few centuries ago. The only difference is that now christianity is declining, radical christians have no political power(except in the US) and the "West"(where christianity exists) has evolved into a more civilised place.

    The same thing will happen with islam, assuming you can actually get some peace, prosperity and education over there. For that to happen, foreigners should just stay the ***** out and let those people sort their problems. Iran could have been a very democratic country by now if the "West" let them be and didnt ***** them up all the time.
    • testcase, on 03/29/2008, -0/+2Actually, I think these days it would be tough to find any video where a group of masked Christians hold up a bloody severed head in front of a "Jesus Saves" poster.
      • suheez, on 03/30/2008, -1/+0have you read the first testament? it's a bloodbath.