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- highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -14/+54In case no one figured it out, most Christian sects, especially Catholicism set impossibly restrictive limitations on living a good life.
In order to be a "good Christian," according to my 7 years of Catholic schooling, you had to never have sex until marriage, never be intoxicated in any way, never have sex just for fun, shun people of differing ideologies, never crave what you don't have , etc...
Impossible or unrealistic-at-best.
It never surprised me that when people who actually listen to those commands snapped, they find them molesting children or in a hotel room with male hookers and meth. It's the result of holding human, fallible people to an impossibly divine standard.
Atheism was a huge liberation for me. - rsHoratio, on 05/17/2009, -3/+21People who are narrow-minded follow the bible to the letter and seem to skip the important parts. Not to preach too much here but people seem to forget Christ's biggest message was forgiveness and love your neighbor. "Who is my neighbor?" "EVERYONE is your neighbor" and we was even including the Romans at the time who were butchering the Jews on a daily basis. I still believe and have faith in the Catholic Church, even though its not everything I wish it was. The church was built on martyrs and now its built on doctrines. Too bad JPII isn't still alive.
- dhughes, on 05/17/2009, -3/+18 Except for the "never be intoxicated" part I agree, I can't say I've ever heard a Catholic person shun a drink, or two, or three.
But yeah I grew up Catholic and went to Church or more precise I was told to go since I was "obligated" to go. Meanwhile it seemed some of my friends parents were either enlightened enough or just didn't care if they went, so at about age 18 most of them stopped going to Church.
The only reason anyone is there is because they are born into it and forced to go by intimidation, you can't just say you're not going, it would be like saying you're getting a sex change, changing your skin colour to green and moving to Mars - your parents couldn't even comprehend it, there's no debate.
It's like a sport, it's not just that you're Catholic but it's you against the other religions and other sects of Christianity. More than that it's your Church against the other Churches and worse than that it's your seat at your Church because you always sit there. People seem to treat it like a sport, us against them.
I truly believe going to Church to 99% of people means that one hour when you sit and try to appear better than everyone else on the other side of the Church walls. Then as they leave it's back to the usual bigotry. - Munk3y, on 05/17/2009, -8/+19There are a lot of elitists out there in the world in various groups of people and the Catholic Church is no different. Ice Cube said it best back when he did real rap "The church ain't nothing but a fashion show".
I'm a Christian but I just read the bible on my own and stuff. That's the only way to do it nowadays, IMO. - richirwin, on 05/17/2009, -3/+1254% of Catholics voted for the pro-choice candidate.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/08056 ...
If the Catholic church is going to hold "life issues" as the yardstick as to who is a good Catholic and maybe even to the point of deciding who can actually BE a Catholic (Douglas Kmiec, cited in the article as "conservative Catholic legal scholar and Reagan administration lawyer" was denied communion because of his support of Barack Obama) then the Catholic church is looking at losing over half of its membership.
That's a lot dues walking out the door. - inactive, on 05/17/2009, -2/+9Some religious people, (Catholics included) think that performing rituals is all a person has to do to be faithful. Rituals are meaningless unless you are living the tenets of your faith in the real world.
Sorry, but you might as well not go to church if your a *****-heal in real life. - GavinZac, on 05/17/2009, -2/+8They are, exactly, Catholic doctrine. I was taught them in school here in Ireland for 14 years.
- IHaveCrayons, on 05/17/2009, -2/+8All that matters for Christians is that you actively try and hope to eventually follow truly the teachings of Jesus. A "real" Catholic is a Catholic who also follows the outline of the Catechism... that's all.
- highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -0/+6I didn't say that was a reason to be an Atheist.
I just said being free of that oppressive guilt was one of the many enlightening things about my realization that God probably doesn't exist. Take it or leave it.
It was also surprising given all the Catholics that told me Atheism results in purposeless despair. - seanayb, on 05/17/2009, -1/+6This article is kind of *****.
"a sectarian and divisive culture that classic Catholicism has always rejected"? On the contrary, Jesus himself said he comes "not to send peace, but a sword". "For I am come," he goes on, "to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law" (Matthew 10:34-35).
What the article seems to be getting at is that we should put our ideological differences aside and have a big group hug of unity.
Strength through unity
Unity through faith
Ring a bell?
Any, and I mean ANY forfeiture of ideological convinction in favor of fuzzy happy unity is utter cowardice and completely immoral. The Post itself admits that Catholics are favoring assimilation over the "fear of losing their faith in the nation's melting pot".
Even worse, the author means to draw an insubstantial distinction between so-called "conservative" Catholics and, well, some other ethereal sect of Catholicism that doesn't even merit being named. "Fellow Catholics", "American Catholics", but never the obvious counterpart to their conservative rivals ("liberal Catholics"! duh)--that would be, dare I say it, fair. There isn't some Catholic Gradient against which a person is held to see what shade and value he or she merits. Catholicism is a very precisely articulated and published (and even inexpensive) set of beliefs and practices. If x, y, and z, then Catholic. There isn't some kind of interpretative fuzziness here. God forbid some villainous "conservative Catholic" take his "fellow Catholic"'s creeds and vows of initiation at the meaning of the words therein. - pinchduck, on 05/17/2009, -0/+4Most of the Latinos coming into the United States are both Catholic and pro-immigration. I think you're view of the "Real Catholic" is in much need of an overhaul.
- dhughes, on 05/17/2009, -0/+4 It doesn't matter either way for Catholics, divorce is not an option, divorce to a devout Catholic pretty much means divorce from the Church fellow parishioners.
- birch25, on 05/17/2009, -1/+5They are doctrine although the idea is that you will break these rules and need God/Jesus to save your soul. Everyone who doesn't share your religion commits these sins as well and they go to hell because Jesus doesn't save them.
Of course I pulled my head out of my ass about 5 years ago and am now an atheist and I'm a much better person for it. - eric0213, on 05/17/2009, -0/+4The Catholic church doesn't advocate shunning other religions. Maybe pre-Vatican II, but not any more. They even say that people of other religions (e.g. Jewish, Muslim) will go to heaven.
- TheNik, on 05/17/2009, -0/+4Pfft - what do the _Irish_ know about being Catholic!? /s
- highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -1/+5I was taught that sex must always allow for procreation, which is one KEY purpose for marriage.
Hence the fierce opposition to birth-control of any form. Also, one member of a couple deciding they don't want children is grounds for an annulment.
Sex is for the making of babies, never just for pleasure, according to teaching.
Too bad those policies fill Catholic countries with STDs, unwanted orphans, and criminalized abortions.
/sigh - inactive, on 05/18/2009, -0/+3Church history is full of all sorts of forfeitures or ideology for the sake of unity. Start in Nicaea and work your way forward, you will discover that there have been all sorts of alterations to dogma through the years for a variety of reasons.
- RainyDayNinja, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3I see we're moving straight to personal ridicule. For a second there, I thought you might actually have a rational argument for your viewpoint.
- emitemirp, on 05/18/2009, -0/+3Ideologies change through the centuries. The Catholic church, as locdogg mentioned, has changed its ideologies through ecumenical councils: see Council of Trent, First Vatican Council, Second Vatican Council, etc. These councils put ideological divisions aside and created a standard of ideologies. The Catholic church has evolved throughout the centuries. So to state that "ANY forfeiture of ideological convinction in favor of fuzzy happy unity is utter cowardice and completely immoral" is completely non-sense and does not follow Catholic history. So please get of your soapbox.
"If x, y, and z, then Catholic." Seriously? Are you a Catholic because you dogmatically follow every single tenant from the Vatican? Do you really follow every single tenant? I bet you don't. So stop being a hypocrite. - seanayb, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3dugg up
- gcnaddict, on 05/17/2009, -1/+4It's funny that you should mention being pro-Israel: the government of Iran and the Vatican are engaged in more backroom talks and are generally more amicable with each other. Hell, it's the Vatican which convinced Iran to diffuse a number of international crises that Iran's extremist leaders decided to start.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1687 ... - Rantus, on 06/11/2009, -1/+4So let me get this straight: All the enlightened Atheists here had no choice but to convert because the terrible Catholic Church (or any religion) was just ruining their lives by making them feel guilty about being a scumbag.
Cry me a river. If you think that religion makes people evil then you've been horribly misguided. - Bloodwine, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3@dhughes, Divorce may not be an option, but Annulment is fine. It's not as hard to get an Annulment these days. You basically get annuled then divorced.
Trust me, there are workarounds for everything! - M1911A1, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3Are you me, dhughes?
- XtheXlanternX, on 05/17/2009, -3/+6Catholicism, along with the rest of organized religions, perverts and distorts the fundamentally good teachings of its prophets. Nearly anyone can agree with most of the things that Jesus of Nazareth taught: love your neighbor, love above all things, forgive those who hurt you, etc. Catholicism has taken these good and honorable teachings and turned them into a bunch of requirements for living. I don't remember Jesus of Nazareth talking about ostracizing and discriminating against homosexuals. I don't remember Jesus of Nazareth teaching about birth control, anti-intellectualism, or any of the other polarizing and divisive beliefs of the modern major religions. These organizations need to be seen for what they are: self-serving and corrupt. They have allowed themselves to stray from the basic tenets and have successfully bastardized and ruined what could have been a good thing.
- Bloodwine, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3@dhughes, as someone who was raised Catholic (not Agnostic), I never came across anti-Protestant, anti-Jew, or anti-Muslim teachings or sermons.
Granted, I was born in 1977 so I pretty much grew up in the era of the Vatican II, which was quite different than the old ways. No more priests with their back to you during mass. No more Latin. Many things were also tweaked to be more inviting and tolerant.
If anything, Catholics are some of the least fundamentalist Christians (at least in the U.S.) - gospe1337, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3I have never heard an anti-non-catholic sermon in what I can remember of my 24-years of life.
- Bloodwine, on 05/17/2009, -0/+3The Bible is more of a guide, a collection of stories. Only ***** crazy people take the Bible literally.
I can maybe cut a Christian some slack if he strictly follows the original Bible, which I am not sure even exists any more. What fundamentalist Christians follow now is the translated King James version. First, a lot of languages do not have 1:1 word mappings, so you know some words and phrases were approximated during translation. Sometime subtle variances can result in different meanings. Not to mention that most people are fallable and prone to putting their own ideologies and slants on their work, so you really have to wonder how accurate to the source material the King James version really is. - highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -1/+3Your experience is extremely similar to mine.
A note on the intoxication thing:
There's obviously a divide between what you're told to do and what actually happens. The priest teaching a class on morality told everyone that ingesting alcohol wasn't a sin, but being drunk was a crime against the body, which belonged to God.
Given, this guy probably drank like a ***** fish. But that didn't stop him from teaching 1000 kids per year that intoxication was a sin...which bolsters my previous point :D - MikeyTwit, on 05/17/2009, -0/+2+1
What you said! - akphidelt, on 05/17/2009, -16/+18Notre Dame sucks
- diggdiggerid, on 05/17/2009, -1/+3Good point regarding translation. I have also heard that the so-called "virgin" birth really had nothing to do with virginity in the usual sense.
- rsHoratio, on 05/17/2009, -1/+3I think you are confusing catholics with protestants.
- timewarp424, on 05/17/2009, -2/+4Believe what you want as far as religion goes, but to think the faith has been corrupted or stained by extremists is far from the Truth. Refer to one of the oldest moral decrees that Christians and Jews abide by.
Atheists avert your eyes... (I kid)
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children
to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.
These commandments have guided Christians and Jews since their beginning. And, as far as any thing I perceive as being projected by modern religions, it's nothing compared to the essence of these moral teachings. In fact, most priests/rabbis/whatever attempt to try to fit these ideas into a society that has "corrupted" or strayed far from these points. To think religion has gotten more conservative is absurd. Society has become far more liberal. If anything, religions are attempting to become more liberal to cater to their new demographic. - dhughes, on 05/17/2009, -2/+3We're all mindless drones, isn't that the idea?
FYI I was determined not to be one of those bitter ex-Catholics, more of a live and let live kind of attitude but the farther you get the madder you are over wasted time. - Bloodwine, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Blargh, I meant to say "now Agnostic", not "not Agnostic". I fail at proofreading.
- KublaiKhan, on 05/17/2009, -1/+2Not to start some kind of pissing contest here - "*I* know Catholicism better than *you* know it!" - but my knowledge of the Church comes from a university education partially devoted to the topic, not to Catholic elementary and high schools. Primary Catholic education is notoriously harsh and hard-line, and often reflects an outdated "version" of Catholicism rather than the latest ideas and teachings. I went to public schools throughout childhood, but I know from firsthand observation that the men and women who teach in Catholic schools - and nuns especially, strangely enough - are of the sort who think the Church was a hundred times better before Vatican II. So, take that for what it's worth.
birch25 - No, you seem to have Catholicism entangled with some other Christian sect. "Everyone who doesn't share your religion [...] goes to hell" is a decidedly un-Catholic thought.
And if becoming atheist made you a better person than you were as a theist, I'd consider that a personal issue rather than an issue with the Church. I don't see many things in Catholicism or most other Christian churches that could in any way prevent or obstruct you from being a "good person." I have to wonder what made you such a terrible person when you were a Christian, and what your conversion experience did to change that. - briLo, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Personally I hold my friends to a higher standard regardless of their religious or non religious affiliations. They are my friends because they stand for what they believe in, and our friendship is not and will not be affected by ones choice.
Obviously you and I are not friends as you're attempt at humor was a ***** one. - dhughes, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1 But the Holy See is not *your* Church it's the head office, nobody listens to it unless they send the Bishop to scold you.
- highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -1/+2Only a tiny fraction of people with Catholic education receive any of it on the university level, as you have. Perhaps things are dramatically different there.
The vast majority are indoctrinated at the Primary level, which you have pointed out is very hard-line, harsh, and favors pre-Vatican-II practice.
Your view of Catholic teaching, as more tolerant and modern, would be ideal...except I don't think that's what the majority of Catholics get.
And I've only shared my thoughts on Catholic teaching/practice as I have experienced them. Don't pretend to know anything about me or "what made [me] a terrible person." Judge not, lest ye be judged, yhadda yhadda. - diggdiggerid, on 05/17/2009, -2/+3That's because they don't follow the Bible. They cherry pick whatever they like and have essentially created their own religion BASED on it. Same goes for most sects of Christianity except fundamentalists and while I vehemently disagree with them, at least they actually believe their own BS. I'm all for love and acceptance, but don't tell you you believe Conan the Barbarian is the word of god and simultaneously say that he preaches against murder.
- thatiswhy, on 05/18/2009, -0/+1As a devoted Catholic I don’t get why the author of this article thinks that the Church and its members always saw things eye to eye. In the first century Paul had a disagreement on the requirement of circumcision with some of the members of the early Church. When there is a disagreement the members of the Church must look to Doctrine, the Catechism, the Magisterium and the Pope. This is one of the strengths of the Church, when there is a disagreement there is a defined and time tested method of resolving conflict. With human nature and Ego some may choose to disobey the teachings of the Church, but no one is forcing anyone to be Catholic. I understand if there is something in the traditions or in the actions of some of the members that a person might not agree with, and try their best to work within the Church to try to bring about change; there is nothing wrong with that, but to ignore Church teachings like it does not exist is not the way to go about things.
As for those who say living up to the standards the Church teaches is impossible; that’s why there are the Sacraments to help us on our journey in life. Is living the Catholic faith easy? As someone who is trying my best to, no it is hard but when I look to Christ and the Apostles and the Martyrs; their lives wasn’t easy. Some of them suffered horrifying deaths because of their faith. When life gives me the choice of the pleasure of vice or the pain of virtue I try my best to choose the latter. Not because it is the best choice to bring happiness to my temporary earthly life, or it is the most logical choice in the eyes of man, no; it’s because it is what my God ask of me and all of his followers. I know most of the people in this site will not agree with my views but all I can try and do is to let you see it through my eyes the best way I can. - highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Once again, there is a huge divide between doctrine and practice.
While the doctrine has changed to allow people of other religions respect and saying they can go to heaven, the priests still educated the parish and students that anyone who had encountered the gospel and not converted to Christianity was probably damned.
Also, there is incredible pressure to not marry non-Catholics or even associate with religions who held different beliefs about eucharist...after all, you need to eat the flesh of Jesus to go to heaven, not "symbolic" bread.
Vatican II changed a lot of the doctrine ON PAPER, but in practice, the old ways carry on. - GavinZac, on 05/19/2009, -0/+1gospe1337, do you live somewhere where catholics are a minority? give catholics a majority and the feeling they can say anything they like, and they will start the bigotry. I've heard plenty of sermons about how terrible the protestants in northern Ireland are and how they can say or do anything they like but they're burning in hell regardless.
- highlymodified, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1I could cite each in the Catholic catechism, but obviously your mind is irrecoverably fixed to assume I'm unreasonable.
- inactive, on 05/18/2009, -0/+1It's very hard when your mom makes you go to church on Sunday and sometimes that just makes you so angry you have to complain on the internet about it.
- KublaiKhan, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1I think it's fair to say that there may be a rift between official Catholic doctrine and local Catholic practice. There are definitely parishes that are more liberal than others, there are definitely parishes that are more old-fashioned than others, etc. So, while the "home office" in Rome may *officially* promulgate certain positions, there's very little recourse to enforce that all Catholic educators faithfully proclaim those positions. Personal biases exist even in priests, nuns, and other Catholic teachers.
I do think the "majority of Catholics" are relatively tolerant and modern - at least in America. Case in point, they were a major factor in electing Obama. And, if you ask me, that's a good thing; I didn't vote for Obama, and I am very much against the Democrats' pro-choice party line, but I think in most other ways I am politically liberal, and most American Catholics are the same way.
That "what made you such a terrible person" comment was aimed at birch25, because he said he's a much better person since becoming an atheist. I hardly meant to judge him - I just have to wonder what obstacles the Church created that prevented him from becoming such a good person when he was a member. - RainyDayNinja, on 05/17/2009, -2/+3You have to be "stupid and/or insane" to believe that a fetus is a baby? Are you kidding me? Why don't you enlighten us and point out where the magical line is that separates a "glob of cells" from a human being? It's one thing if you want to argue that another person is wrong in his/her view, but to insist that they're an idiot or insane for holding that view is what we call "intolerance."
And are you claiming that homosexuals have no free will? I don't doubt that some people are genetically predisposed toward homosexuality, just as others are genetically predisposed to obesity, violence, or alcoholism. Just because someone suffers a temptation doesn't mean they have to act on it. Now I'm sure I'm not going to convince anyone here that homosexuality is wrong, and I don't intend to. But don't throw around this argument that "homosexuality isn't a choice," because defining morality by what's easy is just silly. - seanayb, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1That is a generalizing account of Catholicism that assumes the worst interpretation of what we explicitly believe and say.
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