What is Digg?240 Comments
- Reclinatron, on 10/12/2007, -43/+252"We would never deny a child their religious expression," he said. "What she has become, however, is a distraction."
So much for protecting the rights of the minority. He better lose his job over this. - TVisdoG, on 10/12/2007, -18/+211I wasn't raised with any exposure to Catholicism, and I remember finding it very distracting the first time I noticed a bunch of people with ashes on their foreheads in school. I wonder what would have happened to the administrators at my school if they'd sent all those kids home for distracting me.
- BarriedaleNick, on 10/12/2007, -4/+124@KyleGoetz
"a premeditated, knee-jerk reaction from her father."
One or the other but not both... - Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -9/+98@gizza: Easter is most definitely a Christian holiday to remember Peter the Rabbit, the one true pope, appointed by Jesus Christ himself who died in Iraq trying to save Christmas and Santa Claus or have you forgotten about all that? He died in Iraq for your Christmas!
- TVisdoG, on 10/12/2007, -15/+93@Admirabumblebee: The majority of the population would agree with kicking a kid out of school for wearing a cross? We have a huge portion of the population that wants to force public school students to recite Christian prayers in school. I think you'd see more than a minor outcry if a student were kicked out of school for expressing Christian faith.
- 11arrows, on 10/12/2007, -5/+81I support people wearing crosses to school, and it would be incredibly hypocritical not to support this as well. Freedom for everyone or freedom for no one.
- Gizza, on 10/12/2007, -17/+80I'm sure they allow ppl to celebrate christmas at school. I bet they don't even know that that was a Pagan holiday before the Christians stole it. So was Easter.
- Aurra, on 10/12/2007, -1/+63Yeah. That's a great idea. What are we going to do when vampires attack?
- fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+63And right above that quote: "Hanover Community School Superintendent Michael Livovich Jr. said any student who wore a cross on their face to celebrate their Christianity or the Star of David to celebrate being Jewish who refused to take it off also would have been sent home."
I really don't doubt Mr Livovich's sincerity here, it was probably against the school dress code (which, yes, are largely *****). I do think they'd shy away from sending kids home for crosses and stars of David if just to avert the hue and cry. - Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -10/+68@KyleGoetz: "However, Ash Wednesday is a religious practice and is widely recognized as such."
So the legitimacy of a religious practice is based on the number of people who recognize it? If that's the case, then let's ban all religion except for Catholicism since they probably have the most adherents and is thus most legitimate by your reasoning. That's just silly. Since the Protestant reformation and ever more so over time, religion has been a personal matter between the person and his deity or lack of. Who are the teachers to say if her practice is legitimate or not? The Ash Wednesday comparison is apt because it draws an analogy between the school's hypocrisy without it being hinged on any particular religion. To put it another way, ash on someone's face on Ash Wednesday is not all that different from a symbol drawn on someone else's face. The only difference is the religion they are practicing and to discriminate based on that is illegal. - carinishead, on 10/12/2007, -5/+54I hate the fact that religious zealots don't realize that the "mainstream" religions are just as stupid/ridiculous as every other belief no matter how small the following.
- abaddono1, on 10/12/2007, -8/+55"Livovich said he had done some research and found no indication that wearing a pentagram on the face is a part of a person's faith."
dumb ass needs to learn about Google.
"wearing a pentagram on the face is a part of a person's faith" -wikipedia - OneHine, on 10/12/2007, -6/+51I don't think Livovich is incompetent, I think he's lying. It's obvious he's discriminating against non-Christians and now he's desperately relying on others' ignorance and bigotry against non-Christians to keep his job. His "research" isn't based on facts he found, it's simply what he wishes were true.
- abaddono1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+41ban it all or allow it all. tolerate others who are different or seal ourselves up in plastic trash bags so we can't bug each other
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+36And the parent that has his kid go to school with ash on his forehead brainwashes his child less? Just think about that for a minute.
- hikaruzero, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30"He named his child Sky. That is all we need to know about this father."
lol ... that is the most *worthless* comment I have heard all week. Not only does it show your lack of intelligence to be able to even associate the premise with the conclusion (fallacy: non sequitur), but it's an attempt at appealing to some arguably objectionable property of the father in order to support the conclusion that the father is in the wrong when in fact the father's personality has nothing whatsoever to do with the superintendent's decision (fallacy: ad hominem). Continuing, it is an argument designed to appeal to popular support, that simply because he named his child a common but unorthodox name, he must have some objectionable property about him (fallacy: argumentum ad populum).
Good job, way to completely disregard the purpose of the brain. Three fallacies in a single sentence! If I was an idiot, I would be impressed at your rate of *****. - TEMM, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25What kind of steak works best against a vampire? Ribeye or Porterhouse?
- cruzlee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23And yet another contender for the "Confusing Title Award 2007".
- bahamutxd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24"The student, Sky Holeman, was sent home for a second day on Wednesday, this time for having more than one pentagram on her face, Livovich said."
I think the extra one was too much - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23heh wonder what would happen to people who still consider the swastika to be a revered symbol.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24Eh, Paganism has been around for thousands and thousands of years. Christianity is just a passing fad.
- redfernjon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23I'm a pagan and I'm the treasurer of the pagan society at my university. I prefer not to make overt displays of my religious beliefs (though I make no secret of it) and the society doesn't push anything in people's faces either.
However, if one religious group is allowed to wear religious symbols on their face in school, then all should be. If she wishes to display her faith like that, then that is her choice. Regardless of how wrong the superintendent's research was, it shouldn't matter - even if it wasn't customary to wear pentagrams on your face if that is her belief then she should have the same rights as everyone else to express it. - redfernjon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19therealhustler-
Though I realise it's no absolute measure of intelligence, I'm currently studying for a doctorate. I've also gained my religious beliefs after years of careful thought and research, which is ongoing. I recognise that my beliefs may not be right, nor are they absolute. However, in the very least the 'pagan gods' I pay attention to could represent different emotional/psychological parts of myself, even if they didn't exist externally. Religious belief doesn't make people stupid, but blind belief does. - jstevewhite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20I'm absolutely amazed by the number of people who claim to know the requirements of the 'pagan faith'. C'mon, people, let's not be asinine. Pagan is, according to dictionary.com, a person who observes a polytheistic religion, or a person who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew (or, last but not least, a hedonistic or irreligious person). Hindus are pagan; they put colored dots on their foreheads. Would he send them home? Does he know the requirements of their faith?
Not to mention that Neo-Pagans - a much more appropriate appellation for the young lady in question - are people adhering to NEW pagan religions, or RECONSTRUCTED pagan religions. Wicca is a Neo-Pagan religion, and there are as many flavors of wiccan 'faith requirements' as there are HPS-es (High Priestess = HPS, High Priest = HP). Gardenarian - Gerald Gardener invented Wicca in the thirties from scraps and fragments of aboriginal European religions, mixed with a liberal dose of imagination and a few bits of general popular occultism, with a thread of poorly-researched anthropology in there for flavor. It immediately split off.
I do, in fact, know HPS-es that require coven members to wear visible marks on the "High Days". I know HPS-es that require coven members to get certain tattoos. I also know HPS-es that believe both of those practices to be heresy and absolutely incorrect.
The long and the short is this: For this man (and the various diggers who've done similar) to claim that he (or they) *know* the requirements of this girl's faith is arrogance and evidence of ignorance. To pretend that one type of religious marking (Ash Wednesday) is acceptable, but another is unacceptable, is frank and obvious discrimination. The same kind that I've seen all my working life. OF COURSE, after they slap down the one that's different, there's the "Ok, we've gotta enforce this on everyone now" - but there's an obvious and inevitable reluctance in the follow through when it applies to people of "acceptable" and "common" belief. Many times I've seen this scenario: Walk the cube farm, and see many portraits of Jesus en travail, or Mother Mary looking benevolent, or Crosses of resin embedded in small stone bases, or angel pictures, you-name-it. Then the strange chick (or dude) on the end hangs a pentagram over the monitor, or draws a veve on the whiteboard, or puts up one of those cool mandala posters - or for that matter, simply explains why he's got a white candle and a black candle on the desk, or what the holly and oak leaves mean that are pinned to the cube wall. Then Mrs. Grundy complains to her boss that there's a godless heathen speaking blasphemy (that's a real quote, mind you) in *her very aisle*, and on Good Friday, to add insult to injury! So, knowing that the ineluctable Mrs. Grundy will be inconsolable and vocal if he doesn't "Do Something", he discusses things with his HR rep, and then pronounces the company policy, enforced now for the first time - "No overt religious symbolism is allowed in the cubes. This may include posters, screen savers, icons, idols, physical representation..." you get the picture.
So even though the policy is after-wards evenly enforced, it's still discriminatory, because it wasn't triggered by anything but the 'unacceptable' demonstration of faith. - Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -7/+25"Livovich said that was different, however, because it is part of a person's faith. Livovich said he had done some research and found no indication that wearing a pentagram on the face is a part of a person's faith.
"If it was a part of her faith that everyone of her faith does this on May Day, then I would say our apologies to the child and the parent," he said. "But that isn't the case here."
What kind of BS is that? So he's suddenly the expert on HER religion? Is there a goverment certification panel for religions and their practices? Oh wait! That's illegal and very much against the spirit of religious tolerance in the US! This dude probably fits more at home in China where they actually do certify religions than he does in the US. - etnlIcarus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19I fail to see how it not being a, "common practice", changes anything. Maui's very commonly tattoo their faces as a symbol of status and lineage and it's no more distracting than any of the crucifixes I see hanging around people's necks on a daily basis.
- osbjmg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18What is that difference?
- nick111, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Pagan Symbols?
***** easter eggs are pagan symbols.
I mean really... do you really think that christmas doesn't have FAR more pagan symbols in it than Christian ones? All of these Christian festivals were deliberately superimposed over pagan ones - there was a huge row in the early church when Jesus birthday was moved to Dec 25 - the people advocating it were smeared as being "pagan"... but it was simply a lot easier to spread christianity if it wasn't at odds with older customs. - John0877, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20youre apparently allowed to express your religious beliefs as long as you believe what the majority believe or atleast the people in power believe, else you face ridicule or suspension or expulsion.
its sad that this country was founded on the freedom of religion and now its being done awya with slowly. - laserblazer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17hdtvdust,
So now we know you're not only an imbecile, but a bigot to boot.
You're so ambitious! - shanealeslie, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19 My family is wiccan (pagan), and nowhere, in any of the teachings have I come across a requirement to wear a pentacle drawn on the face on May first (Beltane, or the first day of summer). There is actually little structure to the process of worship in wiccan/pagan tradition - most practitioners that I've met are of the type called 'Solitary Practitioners' - they have created a set of beliefs and practices on their own, or adapted them from some other source. This girl may have decided that the wearing of the pentacle would be one of her expressions of faith, but that was her decision.
Alternately... I have however noticed that there are as many (if not more) poser-pagans than actual believing/practicing pagans - and drawing a pentacle on ones face when going to school would probably be considered a 'cool' way of drawing attention to ones self, and getting to be the 'oppressed minority' for a change; Goth is the new black don'cha know. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15The Byzantine empire spread Christianity by mixing Roman gods(paganism) with Christian idols in order to sway everyone over to Christianity. It was the conservative country folk who didn't buy that new Christian stuff. Back then a good ol' boy believed in the power of Zeus, not that hippy Christian city slicker mumbo jumbo. I love history.
- Drahkar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16As someone who has been a part of several of the groups that the father said they were a part of and having known people within those groups I can say that the religion does not require a person to Celebrate May 1st by marking their face. While it is practice by some individuals its nothing more than people painting a four leaf clover on their cheek for St Patrick's day. Its not a religious requirement for it to be marked there. And having run classes I can tell you from first hand experience how distracting and disruptive having things painted on their face can be to a class.
So in all honesty I probably would have done the same as him. Its not mandated by the faith as a requirement. Its not even mentioned as a normal means of celebrating it. As such its nothing more than a personal way of saying 'This is whats going on' And I don't doubt if it wasn't something mandated by the faith he probably would send people home on Ash Friday too.
I don't think this is right. If a person wants to celebrate their religion in such a way they should be able to, but its a mark of the religious intolerance out there with how disruptive having anything of that sort on your body can be. - omnithought, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14@rivetgeek
actually, technically, the word "pagan" means "country dweller" just as "heathen" means "of the heather".
A bit of history:
When Christianity first started to spread, it was the royalty that adopted it, while the "common folk" stayed with their old religions. They were considered hicks, and the terms pagan and heathen reflected this. It was derogatory in a sort of "Oh, those silly country dwelling peasants and their quaint old ways. Silly pagans!"
Eventually, Christianity started to be spread by force and anything not Christian was deemed Satanic. Then the words pagan and heathen took on a more sinister meaning and became equated with that which is Satanic. "Other" and "Satanic" became one and the same. Unfortunately, the misuse of these words made pagan and heathen interchangeable with both "other" and "Satanic".
Due to this twisting of these words, a lot of people now think that "pagan" means "anything not Christian".
Hope this helps. - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Crosses can only tmporarily stop the weak, novice vampires. Anyone who's been a vampire for 1+ century will bitchslap that cross off your kneck with ease. If you really care about protecting yourself you need to step up to steaks and UV based weapons.
- meetthescott, on 10/12/2007, -13/+24The militant mob atheism on digg is depressing, and it's evidenced nowhere better than here. Before you start accusing me of being an imaginary-friend-having lunatic moron, I'm an agnostic atheist. This story is just another example of ridiculously misleading headline reporting being exacerbated by an inflammatory quote selection on the Digg submission, as well as people not RTFA.
My impression of the situation (having RTFA), is that a comparison between this and Ash Wednesday is completely inappropriate. The superintendent saw a kid with face paint on. He researched the situation (supposedly), found that it is not a religious practice, and sent the kid home for being a distraction. Having ash on one's forehead on Ash Wednesday, whether you like Christianity or not, is obviously a religious practice. This kid's actions are more like going to school with meatballs drawn on your face and claiming that it's a celebration of your church, that of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: just because it's RELATED to your religion does not make it a religious practice. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I should have said Jupiter, not Zeus. Jupiter is the Roman's equivilant of the Greek Zeus.
- warriorscot, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15There is no difference between wearing a symbol and painting it on your face.
I would also like to know how the guy researched this, there are so many forms of paganism and it was suppressed for so long there isnt allot of information out there on all its many derivative religions. And painting your face is something allot of religions do and is a common pagan practice at least in allot of its branches. - Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15@fantasticflan: "I really don't doubt Mr Livovich's sincerity here, it was probably against the school dress code (which, yes, are largely *****). I do think they'd shy away from sending kids home for crosses and stars of David if just to avert the hue and cry."
Yeah I would like to see him try and not appear hypocritical. All the evangelicals will be so up in arms he will be lynched and Fox News will be there to cover it and denounce him as a liberal. He picked on a "pagan" religion because he knew he can get away with it. It's the same reason minorities and nerds get picked on. There's not enough of them to give you trouble. That man is a bully. - tazx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@satanatnmtedu re "agnostic atheist":
Agnosticism and atheism are orthogonal, and certainly not exclusive. Agnosticism is a position that god's existence is unknowable. Atheism is the lack of belief in god(s). An agnostic theist believes in god, but recognizes there is no evidence for it; an agnostic atheist doesn't believe, but likewise holds there's no evidence against it.
Atheism is NOT necessarily "knowing there is no god". "A" - without, "theos" - belief in god. Lack of belief is all that is required. "Strong atheism" or "positive atheism" is the philosophical position that god does not exist, but that is a subset of atheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Strong_vs._weak - AussiePagan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I'm a pagan, a Pantheistic Neo-Pagan, if we want to get all anal about terminology.
The Pentacle of the face, "Standard Practice", no. But -NOTHING- is standard practice in (Neo)paganism. Paganism doesn't require you to accept an ancient book of myth's as unquestionable fact, abstain from certain foods, dress in a particular way, force your beliefs onto others, or hate those of a different sexual orientation than yourself.
The heart of paganism is finding and making your own connection to the Divine, and accepting that other's have found their own, unique, paths to the Divine. This over acceptance does lead to the impression that anything goes in paganism, which is partly right; we believe is the -meaning- behind the symbols/religious observances, not the symbols/religious observances themselves that are important.
The Pentacle, due to Wicca's influence on paganism, has become the most widely used pagan symbol. If she believes marking her face with that symbol is an appropriate way of honoring her religion, so be it.
Would you stop a Hindu from wearing their red dot (Can't remember its name) on their forehead ? - IceZZ, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12And Christianity was made up by some old coot monks. Yippee. All religions were invented.
- laserblazer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Slowly?
- HigherLogic, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20It doesn't belong anywhere actually...
- reed311, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8If someone gets "distracted" because of a ***** symbol on someones face then that's their own problem. What are they going to do? Sit there and stare at their face for hours on end? This is simply an excuse to discriminate against a non-popular religion. They did the same thing in my high school when I was younger. Some kids started a Jesus Club after school to meet in our tax payer classrooms. Other kids wanted to start a Satan Club to prove Christian Hypocrisy. And guess what? The Principal wouldn't allow the club. The kids got a lawyer and because of that the Jesus Club had to stop meeting because the principal would not allow a Satan Club.
- zdislaw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Last time I saw someone with an easter egg painted on their face was at my 2nd grade daughters school right before easter.
- fluxingtontheIV, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@abbadono1
ok, i can go that route too. from the wikipedia article on pentagram
"Many Neopagans, especially Wiccans, use the pentagram as a symbol of faith similar to the Christian cross or the Jewish Star of David. It is not, however, a universal symbol for Neopaganism, and is rarely used by Reconstructionists."
It also does not state anywhere about writing it on the face. However, wearing jewelry showing it is a different matter. But there is no religious significance to writing it on ones face stated in the article.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram - Ginnungagap, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Greetings All,
I am the father of the girl in question. I have been a member of the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids for over 10 years. I have done lots of study into religions and how i came to be a pagan. How many christians actually walk the path of jesus? If they truly did they would be practicing Judaism. One of the possible theories on the death of jesus was the he was crucified for being a magi. So how come christians don't study the cabala the Jewish system of mysticism that jesus knew. How many christians know who Enoch was? Jesus sure seemed to preach alot of things from the book of Enoch. How many christians know that Solomon was a magi and summoned spirits to do his bidding? How many christians know that the angel Shatain translates into english as the devils advocate, and that this was the angel that spoke to god on the behalf of man. So wouldn't that mean man is the devil and evil only lies in the hearts of men. Also according to the bible the only people god created were the hebrews, and my point is then I do not exist because I am a white european decent, asains do not exist, nor do any of the native peoples of the americas and Australia. The old testament has no mention of the americas, Australia, antartica, so how did noah know to go across the very large and diverse contants and gather 2 of every animal? Please get an education and learn from observation of science, because its based on what we learn from what we see and reason out. Follow like blind sheep if you like. It will only lead to another burning time, or the bloody wars between the catholics and protestants, or like the war raging now between ***** and sunni. Seem to me that people that worship just one god and put stock in a book of 2000+year old stories written to describe a perceived universe for their intelligence level at the time, cant even get along with each other. Judge not lest ye be judged? Let us not forget who were the main force to spread christianity, The Roman Empire! The romans had alot of fun killing christians until the first christian roman emperor, what happened then, oh yeah they began killing pagans. Once the Roman Emperor became A Pope, then things got much worse for the pagan peoples of Europe. Christians find it so easy to attack western paganism,but how come they don't attack eastern paganism which would be the Hindus, Shinto and Buddhists? Is it because India has a billion people and are a nuclear power? Is it because we fear the Chinese communist government more then their religious belief of ancestor worship?
Well if you feel that paganism is wrong then march your happy little buts to Egypt and tear down all the ancient pagan monuments and see how far that gets you. Go to central and south america and try to destroy the ruins of the Aztecs, Incas, and Myans and see how fast them latin american christians cut you down in a blaze of gun fire.
And one last thing pagans don't believe in Satan, only a christian can believe in the existence of satan. And the idea of hell was stolen from the Norse Helhiem which is ruled over by Hel the Queen of the dead. Hel in the norse language means hidden place. Don't follow blindly educate yourself on what it is you are putting your faith into. You might just be surprised on what you might find.
Thank you for listening to my rantings,
Ginnungagap Ovate of the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids - grve, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10xtian bigot, theres no difference between wearing cross necklaces, having symbols tattooed/painted
equality and freedom for all, not only for conformist clones. - ksponge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7What would he say if it was a newly created religion? Is that not allowed? It could be a common personal practice for how she.... worships whatever she chooses to worship. I'm an atheist, but the logic here is flawed. She should be allowed to worship however she chooses as long as it does not cause physical harm to others or ACTIVELY distract from their schooling (say chanting during classes?). This guy should go bye bye. However, most people are pretty slow when I take a look at them, so my view is probably in the minority.
-
Show 51 - 100 of 233 discussions
Check out the new & improved 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is