What is Digg?224 Comments
- dagnabbit, on 10/11/2007, -12/+190The reason the press reports on the US using torture is that it is newsworthy. To quote Glenn Greenwald at Salon.com,
"The reason that it is news that the U.S. tortures, but not news that Al Qaeda does, is because Al Qaeda is a barbaric and savage terrorist group which operates with no limits, whereas the U.S. is supposed to be something different than that. Isn't it amazing that one even needs to point that out?"
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/06/01/al_qaeda/index.html - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -9/+141I cannot understood why men of rank would promote torture knowing it will authorize enemies' recourse and may justify their acts of greater inhumane abuse. WW II allied military leaders knew better.
The ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden Rule" is a fundamental moral principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, which simply means "treat others as you would like to be treated."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity - Junkyarddawg, on 10/11/2007, -18/+132@caponumen: You're upset at *the press* for reporting torture?! How retarded are you?
- nblsavage, on 10/11/2007, -10/+79I've said it once and I'll say it again...we're supposed to be the good guys dammit! The fact that Bush and his cronies actually endorse crap like this makes me weep for our country. It's better we risk danger and stand for our principles than to abandon them for the illusion of safety.
- Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -14/+63And once again, we have to explain it to the dunderheads.
The U.S. (or anyone purporting to be the good guys) torturing = news.
The bad guys torturing = expected. - leontes, on 10/11/2007, -11/+60But the reason it's deplorable is not because the nazi's also did it. It's deplorable because it's disgusting and embrassing and wrong. The Nazi's some pretty neat things too. I wouldn't want someone to say, no public transportation cause the Nazi's did it!
- Visnik, on 10/11/2007, -8/+47"Comparing someone to the Nazis is pretty lame.. they killed roughly 10 Million people.. let's not go overboard."
What you are failing to see or understand is when the caparison is made; it is done so because there is a path to those "10 Million". The Nazi party started in 1920, ended in 1945, events happened to get to the end result of the Nazi Regime of 1945, and people compare events from the 25 year period to current events because you take certain steps to get to an end result. All that is being said when comparisons are made is simply this. "It has been done before by X group (this case the Nazi's) and it resulted in this_______. We as Americans should be educated and vigilant to not let history repeat it's self". So please go read a history book and pay special attention to the space between the lines. - thenativeraver, on 10/11/2007, -6/+33@dildooreilly
Once again, the caps-lock key shows exactly how intelligent the poster really is. - an0nymous, on 10/11/2007, -10/+36These same "techniques" got Nazis sentenced to death at the War Crimes trials. Interestingly, the defenses they used are identical to those used by Yoo to justify the exact same activities.
- esotericguy, on 10/11/2007, -34/+56Well, Bush’s grandfather WAS the banker to the NAZI party… Maybe he brought back some manuals?
- gutistg, on 10/11/2007, -4/+26Torture is always a bad thing, no exceptions.
- Aidenag, on 10/11/2007, -2/+24Here is the original article that covered this topic, Sadly, nobody at digg cares a bout middle-man rules anymore :(
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html
This one even has more info - CannedMango, on 10/11/2007, -4/+25That's an interesting scenario you just made up to justify anything you want to, eh plato?
- parax, on 10/11/2007, -10/+31I dislike Bush and the whole torture problem we currently have. However, the transcription from the Dvorak title to the Digg title of the article is inflammatory.
Dvorak title: "Nazi 'enhanced interrogation' techniques are the same ones used by the Bush administration?"
Digg title: "Nazi 'enhanced interrogation' techniques exact same as Bush's"
Drop the question mark and insert the word "exact" and it becomes a ridiculous assertion that needs point-by-point proof. - Terr01, on 10/11/2007, -5/+25@mc7winkle:
"Comparing someone to a Nazi is so childish especially when there is very little semblance. I haven't seen a reported million casualties from any of these conflicts in the middle east combined."
You're missing the point. The point is not death toll. The angle of comparison is "interrogation techniques". If I say "Apples and Oranges are both sweet", then it actually makes no sense to respond: "Last I checked, they were different colors", since that's not what was being compared. - bloqmon, on 10/11/2007, -4/+24There is no way to win an occupation.
- Drahkar, on 10/11/2007, -2/+22The worst part of Torture is that its been proven to be a fairly inaccurate means of gaining information. Tortured individuals will often make up information and admit to anything just to make the torture stop. It was one of the main reasons outside of the inhumanity of it for the Geneva Convention to ban it. You could very well end up torturing an innocent, getting a full confession and having it all turn out to be false and the person just said it to make the torture stop.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -2/+16Erhöhte Befragung is German for enhanced interrogation. Verschärfte Vernehmung means Intensified Hearing.
- thenativeraver, on 10/11/2007, -5/+19Stop trying to sell us stuff, spammer.
- ColdDimSum, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15We're not talking about how you win a war, we're talking about how you treat prisoners of war which is a VASTLY different thing.
Furthermore, even if you don't care how those prisoners are treated; I bet you damn well will care when these same laws that you were sold to "protect" you are then turned against you -- and blind and ignorant belief that they will not is exactly what will enable those in power to do so. It's happened time and time again throughout history.
"PADME: So this is how liberty dies, to the sound of thunderous applause" -- and that is EXACTLY how it happens. - Ramble, on 10/11/2007, -5/+17It's written into your constitution that you should bear arms (and fight an illegal government).
It's about time you should do that. - CannedMango, on 10/11/2007, -6/+17You are insinuating that torturing terrorists frightens them and saves schoolchildren. It's a nice black and white scenario you paint there, but if you buy into it then you are right in line with Bush taking complex arguments and over-simplifying them. If you want to wave the threat of harm to schoolchildren as your defense for using torture then go live in your fantasy world. Where I come from, human compassion still means something and there is a strong belief that you can never overcome your enemies by becoming them.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -4/+15Torture is a crime.
Torture is always wrong.
This is not a debate. - CannedMango, on 10/11/2007, -6/+17How is emulating the Nazi party a bad thing? Is that a serious question?
- ICSU, on 10/11/2007, -7/+18If you really think that abortion = child execution ... get laid.
- Terr01, on 10/11/2007, -3/+14@plato: Yes, I agree. I'd rather have frightened terrorists (assuming they were meekly frightened) than dead schoolkids.
Sure. I agree. Who wouldnt?
But just saying it is a slogan, not an argument. If you want to actually have some shred of logic connecting those two, you'll need to work a heck of a lot harder than that. Hell, most of the people we "interrogate" are never even charged with a crime. They are *suspects*, nothing more, nothing less.
Shouldn't we be saying "I'd rather have tortured suspects than potentially endangered schoolkids"? Even then, you're implying that not torturing means putting children in danger, with no kind of real evidence to support it.
Short answer: Yeah, you have a point, but it's a meaningless point. - an0nymous, on 10/11/2007, -12/+23No- Godwin's law does not apply.
This is an honest comparison, not a hysterical conflation.
Here's the real article btw: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html - ICSU, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12Can you say anything if you just ask?
Old trick that question mark. - nblsavage, on 10/11/2007, -5/+14@dasluvaluva, if it means selling out all those who died to protect the principles that our country was built on then maybe this war isn't worth winning.
- dasluvaluva, on 10/11/2007, -6/+14"WW II allied military leaders knew better."
Right, because "Blood & Guts" Patton would've never tolerated torture against the enemy. /sarcasm
"We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we're going to rip out their living Goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun ***** by the bushel-*****-basket. War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!" - NeuterGWbush, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10How about Rummy admitting to crushing a little boys testes in front of his parents, is that Torture?
How many have died because of the Torture?
How many remember the soldier that shot herself after working a couple of weeks at abu ghraib?
What drove her, an experienced interrogator, to kill herself, if she did? Her family wonder.
Most of the troops on the ground wouldn't rat out a fellow for abuse, their words not mine.
Hate makes people do what they wouldn't do, if it wasn't for the hate.
Now it doesn't matter if they did or didn't the world thinks otherwise! So any US person can be tortured by another government and you can't stand the high ground anymore. - bloqmon, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11jgtg
Are you honestly saying that dropping two nuclear devices on Japan is a success? I bet you also believe that "they will follow us home." Who in this war has the funds and the wherewithall to "follow" anyone anywhere? Certainly not the people who are using decades old AK-47s and home-made explosives.
And before you suggest that I am a "nutjob liberal who hates America and the troops" allow me to say that I want the troops to come home for their sake. They are losing their lives over questionable motives and we do not need to keep them in harm's way. The Iraqi people do not want us there any longer, so why should we stay? We are strong-arming our foreign policy onto them.
Using violence to spread our "democracy" is no better than Al-Queda spreading their radical form of Jihadism through violence. Hamurabi would be immensely proud of the "eye for an eye" style of war-mongering. We have done nothing but tarnish our once decent image of a grand and civilized country and continuing to support this type of action will only make the hate of us grow and will most certainly blowback at some point in the future. - TDEdigg, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9Do you think nearly freezing a man to death, who then needs medical attention to keep him alive, and then freezing him to near death again, repeat repeat repeat, is torture or not?
- bg785, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10yo i just have to respond to everyone who says it is childish to compare current nations to nazi germany, your wrong. really what did we learn from nazi germany if not to realize that any country can go down the fascist path!!! and it is our DUTY as citizens to constantly compare our country with past countries like nazi germany to make sure we DONT make the same MISTAKE. if you ignore history and continually say, " that will never happen to us." you are living in a fantasy world and do no think using facts but by using belief.
- MacintoshSauce, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9Wilkommen zu Nazi America. Ihre Papier, bitte!
- there, on 10/11/2007, -5/+11 Few people on this world sympathize with radical jihadists but many rightwingers appear to be at war with ALL muslims. But it seems even some well meaning moderates have not clued into the idea it really isn't that absurd to draw comparisons between Nazis and current neo-conservatives any more.
The evidence.
- advocate torture (Regardless the political doublespeak, pretty well everyone else does see it as breaking the Geneva convention)
- create secret prisons (wtf? Why do they need to be secret?)
- blame "liberals" for everything under the sun (Nazi's hated them too)
- seem to be trying to undermine the UN (Nazi Germany was very keen on undermining the League of Nations)
- are preparing camps for an "emergency" (Need I explain this one?)
- are changing laws to put the president in charge in case of an "emergency" (Has anyone heard what happened after the Reichstag fire?)
- unilaterally invade and threaten other countries (Austria, the Rhineland, ...)
- babble excessively about "superior german interests"... uhmmm "superior American interests" (with flags and eagles waving in the background of a great deal of television programming)
- are obsessed with painting themselves as part of some quasi-mystical elite (what was Aryanism if not about establishing the Nazis as elites?)
- start removing our rights by A. spying on us B. at least in principle... stripping us of habeas corpus
- seem to have a religious stereotype in their gun sights that they tend to refer to as "parasites" (check out Goebbels speeches on Jewish people)
- have a tour-de-force of propagandists on TV and radio that have nightly moralistic rants marginalizing some group (particularily Muslims)
- openly entertain preemptive nuclear war that could kill tens if not hundreds of millions (possibly becoming the new gold standard of evil since the Naz's managed "only" 40 million or so)
This is all just my imagination?
Take a good look at this video (which I found displayed on the first page of conservative political section of Youtube (and read the comments of support). At 2:55 of the video the person who made the video has a countdown where he implies he is willing to nuke ALL Muslims (countdown of Muslim population down to zero) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXW7mWPmkc
Ahem..... sorry but is it so outrageous to think some of you are racist homicidal maniacs considering genocide after viewing a video like this? Are we supposed to wait until the nukes leave their silos to say something? Don't be stupid mofos and think if one nuke goes off that many others might not follow.
You know some of us remember the words "never again". Those words apply to everyone. There is no honor or bravery in pushing a button and murdering hundreds of millions of innocent men, woman and children. Morals aren't always a convenience but that's what defines a brave good person over a cowardly evil one. - fastfood15, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8Lets avoid blogspam. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9"The issue of torture is not black and white."
Yes it is. Torture is always wrong. This isn't a debatable point. - 3tcp, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8bury plz
- TDEdigg, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8That's not what the article is doing you maroon.
It is saying that interrogation techniques that the CIA are currently using were first used by the Nazis. When they did exactly what we are doing now, we deemed it to be a war crime and executed those who used them. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -5/+11I'll stop comparing the American right wing with Nazis if they'll stop acting like Nazis.
- CannedMango, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9@EntropyMan
If you've got information to share on how others can also help to get Bush impeached, please post it. - TDEdigg, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8If the police in your town were using these techniques you would be rioting in the streets, stop pretending its OK if we do it to 'them'.
Should your town police be allowed to torture a suspect in a child abduction case? - EntropyMan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+8@cannedmango, two things need to happen. First, Speaker Pelosi needs to understand that she won't be re-elected in 2008 if she doesn't change her mind. That's up to SF residents to enforce. But if you know any, help them make it clear. The constituents of 17+ Republican Senators also need to convince their Senators to abandon this President to the Rule of Law. That can happen over the summer break. If one GOP Senator even whispers impeachment in public, the house of cards will start to fall. Seventeen (perhaps 18) is all it takes.
@ramble, not going to happen. We haven't even tried passive resistance. If it gets to that, and people are hurt by the government during peaceful protests, then some might start to talk about stronger measures. But I'll always opt for passive resistance, because the alternative is worse than Bush -- some other despot is bound to rise to power. - mikeyeah, on 10/11/2007, -3/+8@caponumen
"The main reason the so called "press" has leaked and heavily reported on the on going torture by the USG is to instill fear in the American public."
If you want to know who is instilling fear in the American public, I'll give you a clue: they work in a white house. - nblsavage, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7Welcome to my blocklist you racist *****
- Visnik, on 10/11/2007, -11/+16{ "Comparing someone to the Nazis is pretty lame.. they killed roughly 10 Million people.. let's not go overboard."
“The Nazi's killed 12 million civilians. Not to mention 7.5 million Russians, 3 million of their own soldiers and I can't even remember the amount of the other allied powers. Comparing someone to a Nazi is so childish especially when there is very little semblance. I haven't seen a reported million casualties from any of these conflicts in the middle east combined.”
“it is so sad we live in a world where Nazi and Hitler are thrown around in loose comparisons
unless you lived through that period of time, a time when nearly every able-bodied person in the free world had to support the cause to stop Hitler, you need to STFU with the Hitler comparisons.”
“People who try to equate things happening these days to what the nazi's did have no sense of reality. Some things could be similar and pointing out that we're heading into fascism is one thing but you're an ass hole if you imply that the atrocities committed by the nazis are now being committed by the US government. Individual similarities do not mean duplication of everything bad about nazi's is currently present in the united states.” }
What you all are failing to see or understand is when the caparison is made; it is done so because there is a path to those "10 Million". The Nazi party started in 1920, ended in 1945, events happened to get to the end result of the Nazi Regime of 1945, and people compare events from the 25 year period to current events because you take certain steps to get to an end result. All that is being said when comparisons are made is simply this. "It has been done before by X group (this case the Nazi's) and it resulted in this_______. We as Americans should be educated and vigilant to not let history repeat it's self". So please go read a history book and pay special attention to the space between the lines.
Sorry for the duplicate post, but it applies to more then just one, I wanted to include everyone. - EntropyMan, on 10/11/2007, -12/+17What are you talking about? Some of us are trying to get them impeached. And if all else fails, there are next steps that don't even involve any violence, at least not by us.
- obliviousfool, on 10/11/2007, -3/+8A lot of people in this thread have completely missed the point.
We torture people and we call it "enhanced interrogation."
The nazis tortured people and they called it "enhanced interrogation."
The point is not the torture, but the euphemism. The nazis were able to carry out their heinous crimes (in part) because they were able to carefully control language and ideas. We are doing the same thing. That is the point. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -5/+10How sad is it when the American right wing tries to justify torture by pissing on Vince Foster's grave one more time?
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