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157 Comments
- rhesuspieces00, on 10/12/2007, -19/+43yes, but i'm not sure what you expect. the fact that we're slaughtering Iraqis wholesale kind of erodes our moral high ground. we can't exactly go around telling other countries they should behave more ethically.
- V1be, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22China has been doing this for years. Equally as disgusting as these resettlement projects of Tibetans are the resettlement projects of majority Chinese (Han) INTO Tibet. The total Tibetan population was said to be about 6 million 50 years ago (by Tibetan Gov't in Exile), which was cut back severely from refugees escaping and mass murder during cultural revolution (search, 1.2 million Tibetans killed during cultural revolution). There are now an estimated 12 million total people living in Tibet. Majority Chinese outnumber Tibetans in their own land about 2: 1. This has been aided by the recently completed Qinghai-Tibet railroad (made by Tibetans at low wage) that solidified Chinese control over Tibet and has been used to transport majority Chinese into Tibet to setup businesses and homes. This has effectively made Tibetans second class citizens in Tibet itself. It also requires Tibetans to learn Chinese language - now from birth - so that they can compete in the Tibetan job market with Chinese business owners. When language is lost, with it goes a culture. Further, the Chinese Government is building airports and tourist lines in Tibet to relegate Tibet to a place of "cultural interest" rather than the homeland of an entire peoples as it has been for thousands of years. I am consistently ashamed at the lack of action on the International community's part with regards to Tibet and other Chinese minorities (20 million Mongolians, Uighur, and 53 smaller minorities).
(Check my profile number 1 for an article on the concerns that the U.S. takes up with China...they seem to forgo some of the more important concerns to meet their economic and terrorism agendas...also my website. I work with Students for a Free Tibet Int'l.) - zweben, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25Because money is more important to the government than human rights.
- EntropyMan, on 10/12/2007, -7/+29what @rhesus said is true, plus if America was doing this kind of thing, we'd call the Tibetians "Native Americans."
This is one good reason why we always have to keep the moral high ground. We can't claim to fight for freedom and democracy around the world (if you think we should) when we have such a lousy record ourselves.
That said, I personally want to see Tibet free immediately. But the Dalai Lama is incredibly wise when he says that the way that will happen is when China swallows Tibet, realizes what it's done, and is transformed in the process. Having the US or anyone impose our proclaimed but unbacked values will not change China, or free Tibet. Only a more Tibetian China can. - kenvsryu, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22China is our friend. They can destroy the environment and disregard human rights just as long they keep our investments safe and North Korea at bay.
- Osjpr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21This is reprehensible.
- Hazardc, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19It's a good thing we're "helping" people who didn't want our help when there's stuff like Tibet and Darfur going on in the world.
- funknjunk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I'll take one
- swrostmore, on 10/12/2007, -8/+20This is disgusting. China is doing everything short of genocide to take over the Tibetan territory. They even deposed the next Dalai Lama in favor of a Chinese diplomat's son. Even though Buddhists believe in nonviolence, you can only push people so far before they strap on a suicide belt.
- rnwen2750, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16They have been committing genocide too. Buddhist monks and other followers are being hunted down.
- SlayerKid99, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Resettle? Isn't that what the German's told the Jews, Gypsies, and various other groups before they loaded them onto trains and took them for death?
- merle2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13So you are saying we shouldn't criticize because we did this ourselves in the past? While I agree we did things worse than this, we have realized those actions were wrong. I think we are perfectly justified in speaking out against this action just like we are justified in speaking out against slavery and segregation.
- coldphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11They call it mandate of heaven.
- JasonCox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Welcome to the real world folks. Life aint fair. The Chinese have tanks and jets and the Tibetans have goats. You do the math.
- Y0tsuya, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@yongke
So China's only getting its turn, right? Assuming that the U.S. destroyed 100 animal species, the Chinese can destroy only 50 and still claim they're nicer than the Americans. It's only fair that China gets to destroy a few of its own, so butt out! - PrivateGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@sn3098
I took a full year of Tibet studies. Twelve full books + and all before you were ever even born. Are you telling me I was lied to? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"sleepyness: Didn't the incoming Americans do the same to the Native Americans? Hypocrites (assuming you are an American). If you're European, think about the colonization days, it was just as bad and probably worse than what the Chinese are doing today."
Don't be a nationalistic fool. Just because other nations have done so doesn't make it any more humane. CHINA SUCKS on its own. It doesn't need comparison.
Oh and no, I'm neither American nor European
And you're comparing China to 'primitive' US/ Europe. If that's not insulting, I don't know what is - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12So sad.
i highly recommend the movie "Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion"
China needs to get its priorities straight. Tibet does not belong to China, it never did. People should let it be. Those people are only happy because they don't let things like oppression get them down. - nwvanport, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14Free Tibet!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Chinese Manifest Destiny?
- V1be, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1613937,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
"China will pass the United States as the world's biggest source of greenhouse gases this year, an official with the International Energy Agency said.China had been forecast to surpass the U.S. in 2010, but its sizzling economic growth has pushed the date forward, the IEA's chief economist, Fatih Birol, said in Tuesday's Wall Street Journal...China is a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol on reducing greenhouse gasses, but is exempt from its restrictions because it is a developing country."
Sorry, China is in effect the biggest polluter, considering the RATE of their pollution growth, their lack of attention to the matter, and probably the inaccuracy of reports regarding their pollution from their oft-lying government in the first place. - rnwen2750, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Uh, yes they are.
- V1be, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Read your history books again.
While it is true that Tibet was occupied and invaded several times, it was never by the Chinese. China says that they have ruled the region since the 1200s, but in the 1200s, it was the Mongols who invaded. The Tibetans entered into a “priest-patron” relationship with the Mongols, but it was not domination. Tibet was still independent.
Later in the 1700s, the Qing dynasty took over Tibet, but once again, the Qing dynasty was Manchu, or from Manchuria, and not Chinese. Chinese used to hate the Manchus. This dynasty abdicated in 1912, when the Republic of China was formed. That same year, Chinese troops in Tibet ceded and left the country, and the 13th Dalai Lama proclaimed independence.
Neither Mongolians nor Manchus are ethnically Chinese, and have never been, so to say that Tibet has been part of China for that long is a complete farce, unless Western Europe and the Middle East are also counted as part of China now. The Mongols, as you may know, had the largest contiguous empire in the history of the world. Check out this map of the spread of the Mongolian empire:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Mongol_Empire_map.gif - jasg, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13This is nothing new, china is doing this to get military advantage over India and possibly take away Arunachal Pradesh(may be more) away from India.
china attacked India on Oct 10 1962 when then prime minister of India Nehru(first PM of independent India) was calling Chinese as brothers, invasion from china was totally un expected.
china justified their action by stating that they perceived India to be a threat(which was clearly wrong)
in Nov 1962 china declared unilateral cease fire only after causing severe damage to newly born friendly India and that too after US sent its warships to bay of bengal on request of India.
since then non violent India turned into a pragmatic India, put Defence & military as its # 1 priority and grown into a worlds 3rd largest military and now has a great air force & navy.
ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino_indian_war - V1be, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Source your information...
The Mongolian empire was converted to Buddhism by Tibet's first Dalai Lama. Look up Mongol empire or history of Tibet in Wikipedia. China did not exist until the last hundred years.
Plus, the Buddhism that came to Tibet is unique. King Song Tsen Gampo of Tibet first had Buddhist texts translated into their native language. Padmasambhava was then brought in from India to spread Buddhism there. It became a mix between the native Bon religion, strands of Mahayana, and Tibetan culture. The gap between Chinese Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism is too large and cannot be explained in the way that you have described it, and Tibet was also isolated for a long time because of its geographical location. - rlh1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Seems pretty strange that all these people are saying that the Americans can not condemn other's atrocities because we have had our own. I guess since all nations have committed atrocities, we should all be blind to wrongs in the world?
You have beaten your wife, you can not criticize me while I beat mine,....good logic. - EntropyMan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@Y0tsuya, Yes, China swallowed Tibet years ago. But China pretends nothing happened.
The main thing that has to change is China's own internal awareness of what they did and are doing. I'm hopeful that just like in this country, Chinese consciousness will increase over time (esp. with the internet), as will their appreciation of the Tibetian culture they're stamping out. - zeebusboy, on 10/12/2007, -8/+15I'm going to put this bluntly:
***** China. - V1be, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Detritus,
When America kills 40 million civilians, come tell me.
( http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Mao ) - V1be, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Bud, I'm not trying to say that the U.S.'s pollution is OK, and nobody will deny it, rather that China's is worse. At least we are building savvy consumers in America, and we have a competitive not-state run economy that will eventually force companies to adapt cleaner policies.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@hazardc
Yea, but Tibet and Dafur doesn't have oil thought. Iraq does. - taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8The Chinese long had a foreign ambassador to Tibet. Tell me, how can you have a foreign ambassador to your own country?
- taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8The Iraq war is egg on the face of America for sure, and I do not support it and protested it before we went.
China has killed in the millions already. They have been doing this in Tibet (and Mongolia) for half a century. - nanboya, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I've been to Lhasa to watch a sky burial in 1986 if that counts for anything. Shame about what China is doing to that beautiful country and culture.
- socceranfdude, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8lakeshorebaby
clearly you are completely out of touch with politics and ideology. You are completely wrong when you suggest that Ron Paul,a FREE TRADE libertarian would suddenly cut ties with China because of what China is doing domestically. My guess is that some of the criticism here is coming from the same people who went after the Bush Administration for interfering with Iraq's domestic politics and invading that country. Why should we then be so concerned about China? With all do respect, China will eventually learn from its mistakes. The Chinese Communist Party will not be in power in the next 15 years, I guarantee all of you. But, keep in mind that the same Chinese government we are so critical of is the same Chinese government that has lifted 100 million people from poverty...something no country on the face of this planet has been able to accomplish. You may go after free trade, you may criticize Mr. Bush for maintaining trade with China but until you stop shopping at Wal-Mart, you won't have much affect. I agree with all of you that this is indeed a very dispicable act, but threatening global stability with trade sanctions is probably not a much better idea. The bigger problem with all of this of course, is the United Nations. It is rather difficult to bring much attention to atrocities like those in Darfur or Tibet when you have countries like China and Russia standing in the way. For the record, I am under the impression that many here wish to blame the US government for these matters. I would like to remind all of you that of the world governments, our country is the only country that recognizes that a genocide is taking place in the Darfur. In fact, the UN will only call that atrocity a "tragedy of grave proportions." The declaration of genocide took place under the Bush Administration under former Secretary of State Colin Powell who visted the region early in Administration. Further, last year when the UN world food program cut food supplies to the Darfur region, the President signed an executive order tripling emergency funds to the region and authorizing five US Navy Vessels to begin distributing emergency relief supplies. These events didn't make the headlines, and though much more needs to be done, I assure you, our government isn't as evil as we often make it out to be. Iraq is a surely a disaster, and more reason not to get to touch with China. Trust me, it is a good thing, a very good thing that our President is friendly with China. He is doing so against a very anti-China Congress, very active anti-China lobby, and very anti-China vice president who suggested military action after the 2001 EP3 crisis. The opposite of being friendly with China threatens the possibility of war. I'd much rather be on the other side. China will eventually reverse itself with Tibet but patience is a must. - V1be, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@rlegions
That's a staple of China. If you are referring to their "Special Economic Zones," then yes, there is a limited amount of economic freedom, but do a simple search for "state run" and "China" and you'll see just how many industries are run by the CCP. It extends from oil to healthcare to media. The media is a big part of it. If the media is state-run, which it is in China, and they wish to keep poor environmental policies of its constituents hidden from the public, as they do of course, then you will not see the same type of invisible hand at work there as there in free market countries. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9How are we still trading with them?
- yougene, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The Chinese Communist Party seriously needs to re-evaluate their world view. This is what happens when the coldness of formulas and systems overtakes the warmth of humanity, of being.
- taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10@sleepyness
I personally cant be held responsible for the genocide that occurred when the white man colonized (committed genocide) the North American Continent. Some of my ancestors were on both sides of that horrible tragedy. America itself can come to terms with the moral contradictions that have occurred in her shores (slavery, genocide, manifest destiny, freedom of life, the Constitution) in the past, but only by a more responsible future.
Yes we are committing tragedies in Iraq and around the world. But all of this doesn't make the Chinese government right. The Chinese are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing here and in Mongolia. A flaw in the history of America or Europe doesn't make the Chinese government pure by committing apartheid in Tibet. The Europeans and Americans who buy their cheap goods are wrong to do so and to support such a vile action. The Chinese Government is wrong to commit the action.
Governments of mankind are not governing. We are all members of failed states. No leader has stepped forward to end this and lead us into a future of peace. The world is too busy focusing on Money, Oil, Sex and Power.
When you find peace in your heart, your world will be a better place. - ShrimpCrackers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@rlegions
12 entire textbooks are more than what most course studies require.
In addition its obvious (from rlegions other responses here) that 12 books are more than the sum of you have been reading about the history of Tibet, America, and Europe. How come every site and forum that mentions China always magnets a bunch of Chinese Communist Party apologists. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"Pretty much the same thing can be said for Iraqi insurgence. "
Iraqi insurgents aren't up against the Chinese army. I don't think the Chinese army is going to make much of an effort distinguishing civilians from insurgents. They'll just keep killing people until the enemy violence stops. - KDX200rider, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5And unfortunately every product we buy that was "made in China" supports this activity.
- sleepyness, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12Didn't the incoming Americans do the same to the Native Americans? Hypocrites (assuming you are an American). If you're European, think about the colonization days, it was just as bad and probably worse than what the Chinese are doing today.
- PrivateGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I see the Chinese government's just as mean as ever to their people. Oh wait a minute These are Tibetans. My bad.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4God dammit China, god dammit. When did China do things just to be evil? Next they're going to mandate that all babies be given biomechanical enhancements to make them 30ft tall walking super mechs that terrorize and kill other, non-biomechanical babies.
- legatus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5How dare you inject reason, common sense and worst of all facts to this board.
Kudos - ibookfast, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3FTR, Nixon opened the doors to China way back when. Money and control are what the Elite only care about. Human rights, a quaint, annoying notion for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Nixon_visit_to_China
also from the Wiki on GHW Bush "Ford appointed Bush to be Chief of the U.S. Liaison Office in the People's Republic of China" I also noticed when checking out "Only Nixon could go to China" a political catch phrase, the example they provided was quite interesting... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_in_China_%28phrase%29
- DDarkfire, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@polymorphist
Awesome, using wikipedia as a source. Slavery is more like what the chinese are doing to the Tibetan. - mandarin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Booo.... State sponsored successor? Screw that!
- ShrimpCrackers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Its also the Chinese version of the "White Man's Burden".
Many Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Apologists will simply say that any atrocities their beloved party does is necessary and besides, the US or X Country has done the said atrocities before. Then they'll say its necessary to bring "China as a whole" forward. The thing is, there are other methods and there is no indication what-so-ever that Tibet could not have progressed beyond what it is today without China's intervention. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and even the Tibetans were better off than the average Chinese before any Chinese government took them over. Of course they all have advanced since then but the apologist assumption is that any advance couldn't have been made without the CCP, KMT, etc.
But keep in mind, its almost culture to teach Asian children from birth a certain world view. Case in point: ask most Chinese Americans what they think about democracy. Then ask them what they think about democracy in China (you'll almost certainly get the opposite reaction). Then ask what they think about Tibetan Independence, Uyghur Freedom, Inner Mongolian equality, or Taiwan Independence; you'll be lucky if you're still friends. -
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