What is Digg?156 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -14/+153Isn't it amazing that the Pope can just make an entire realm of non-existence disappear?
- datter, on 10/12/2007, -33/+81Organized religion is retarded, but whatever floats their collective boats.
- decepticrat, on 10/12/2007, -10/+43@imperium2000
As I asked in my description, What do you think will happen to the billions upon billions who've already been *condemned* to limbo, now that it no longer exists?
And, LMAO @ the very idea of making an entire realm of *non-existence* disappear! - OneHine, on 10/12/2007, -8/+39So just what prompted this change? Did the Vatican's paranormal scientists suddenly uncover new data which disproved their old hypothesis? Or maybe they found an error in earlier analysis of the afterlife? Or maybe, just maybe, the whole concept of Limbo is completely unsupported by any facts whatsoever and the Catholic Church's belief in Limbo in the first place was silly and irrational from the start. Perhaps this current decision is motivated purely by the need to make people more comfortable with Catholicism and thus attract them to the church.
Which brings up the obvious question: how long until Hell is also officially declared to not exist? After all, it has no more evidence in favor of it than Limbo did. - dshPls, on 10/12/2007, -10/+41It's like the question:
What happened to all the people before Jesus died for everyone? They couldn't be saved, and didn't know to pray to the christian god. - timbellomo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24It was never really part of Catholic doctrine, but rather a "theological hypothesis." It hasn't been taught for quite some time.
- eradicator, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25Getting rid of Limbo?! How low can you go?
- OneHine, on 10/12/2007, -6/+25The same way the decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. First you make up something, then you declare it God's Word, then you discriminate against those who believe differently.
It may not sound impressive now, but it worked better in Medieval times when Church and State intermingled and you really could burn people at the stake for being heretics. - mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21This is dumb. The entire idea of limbo has been if you will always been in limbo. It has never really been a church teaching and has been put down many times. This is just the Pope clarifying that it is not true and that God's mercy is too great to have a Limbo.
Edit: Oh yeah Catholics are Christians. And the first Christians at that. Don't get me started. *Cough* above comment *cough* - Jennifurret, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15While I always thought the belief that unbaptized children had no chance of getting into heaven was sort of cruel, how do they actually go about figuring this out? Did they just sit around thinking really hard? You can't like, research dead babies and ask them where they actually went (assuming there is a heaven and hell, which I don't personally believe). Not that you can prove anything religious through research anyway...
- Rapter09, on 10/12/2007, -13/+25What's wrong with them not being able to redefine their beliefs? Everything. It's not science. It's faith. The Good Book was written, and doesn't change. God or Jesus didn't come back down and say "Oh shoot, guys! I'm sorry! I totally fudged up that part of the book. Totally totally sorry about that Limbo thing.. you can forget about it. I'm sorry. Gosh. I feel like such a doofus."
Scientists redefine scientific theories because new data becomes available; Scientists want their theories to be disproved and advanced upon. Science changes always as we learn more about the world around us, and the universe that we inhabit; Religion doesn't, or at least shouldn't, otherwise the whole book becomes false and open to constant changes, which means if the book is constantly changing by mortal hands... then it's not really a holy book, is it? - volvinator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Oh, those zany Catholics. What's next? The Pope will try to tell us that ingesting the Sacrament is LITERALLY eating of the flesh of Chr.....oh dear science...
- littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -11/+22See this is the problem with Organized Religion. Dogma!
Stuff that isn't even in The Bible. - mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"Unedited"
LOL! Dude you know Martin Luther picked and chose books of the Old Testament? You know that the "Apocrypha" was actually the Jewish Torah that was in use during Jesus' time? Oh yeah, Martin Luther went back and added and changed elements of the New Testament to say that salvation did not require good works? So whose is really "unedited"? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Souls supposedly can't be destroyed and it can't go up to heaven without being baptized...where else could a soul go? Down?
- hipnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@bebop: "Being as how the pope is the representative of god and without error, this poses a problem. Since the previous popes were "wrong" about this limbo it means that a pope can be fallible, which can really make you question anything he says about anything."
The Catholic concept of infallibility does not extend to everything any pope has ever said, but only to official proclamations regarding core doctrines: such as the divinity of Jesus, or the fact that he died for our sins. If the pope makes an offhanded comments that jelly donuts taste great, that does not automatically become infallible Catholic doctrine -- although I do believe that the taste of jelly donuts is proof of God's divine love. - RedHerringHack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Could it be (GASP) that they're just making it all up as they go along?
- hipnerd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"What happened to all the people before Jesus died for everyone? They couldn't be saved, and didn't know to pray to the christian god."
Well, that is actually covered in Christian theology.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
After dying and being resurrected in the spirit, Jesus went to "Abraham's Bosom" and led all the righteous dead into heaven, which I am sure they appreciated.
Limbo was never official Catholic Dogma, but rather a debated theological concept that has existed for centuries but has steadily lost favor in religious thought since the middle ages. It was never fully endorsed or completely dismissed by the Catholic Church, and it was never a core belief of Catholicism or any other Christian faith that I am aware of.
It seems apparent that many, if not most, Digg readers find religion quaint and religious people to be intolerant of others beliefs. But as I read comments in many of these threads, I am often struck by how intolerant and ill-informed the people attacking religion seem. Straw men arguments and half truths are commonplace. Reasoned arguments supporting religion are often buried, simply because they do not adhere to the dogma of Digg: Religion = Bad. - ubuntuedgy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I feel the need to clarify here. I have studied the Bible intensely (the original 66 books) . Don't really consider myself religious. When you die, you sleep. You don't go anywhere. Judgment of mankind happens at the very end. I don't care about traditional catholicism or anything like that; this is specifically what the Bible says (minus the Apocrypha). Google it and stay away from Catholic sites which have entirely different views sometimes. I'm not knocking anyone's religion, but the unaltered old and new testaments are quite clear that you don't go anywhere at death. You sleep until judgment. Everyone is judged at the same time.
- polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Imperium
It's amazing that they made that world appear. - EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7This can be directly traced to the middle ages, where it was used to influence families to baptize children into the religion and teach them as early as possible. As you can see from the Bible, Baptism (for instance, with John the Baptist) would usually baptize adults (people sentient enough to make their own decision about religion).
Baptizing children helps to indoctrinate a human being before they're sentient enough to choose whether or not they WANT to be part of that indoctrination.
Anyways, I'm glad they moved past that. Ever so slowly, the Catholic church is removing the horrible and illogical decisions they came to in the middle ages due to corrupt leaders hungry for power and influence. They have a long way to go, but every step is important... and the fact that they're making these steps is a good sign that at least some members of the church don't want this nonsense in their religion.
@OneHine
Almost... most of the time, especially in the middle ages, these choices were entirely political, and then explained in the way you describe in order to make it seem like it had religious origin. It's very unfortunate, and ever so slowly being reversed. Perhaps too slowly, but 1000+ years of believing a lot of nonsense created by power mongers is sometimes hard to correct. - mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6A true facet and dogma in the Catholic faith is what he is referring to. It has never really thought to have been trued so much as a possibility since Baptism (In some form since there are several) is required for salvation.
- tsf5000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Religion being done away with entirely.
- cambrown99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I bought some indulgences a few months ago, so I'm good to go.
- cyphin6, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I'm sorry name one reason why organized religion is good for humanity, tell me how that encourages people to think of the possibilities of the universe and want to explore the unknown Religion is old, it is an ideal that was necessary at a certain part of time to help humanity get to this point, the point where the age of science and reasoning will soon become to norm and religion will be known as our "faithful" past, but as civilization grows and becomes for technological advanced Religion will find it's place in society. People now have the ability to think for them selves and survive without the belief in a supernatural being, people now can understand the fact that the universe in unknown and God is no the absolute answer to our existence. Education will be the end of organized religion.
- krellor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Even those in the non fundy pro choice crowd should find that shirt offensive. I'm for pro choice and all, but lets not trivialize the issue with grotesque shirts.
- Sagags, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7umm no they don't have you ever been in a catholic church? they often pass the basket around a second time for the homeless or for donations to other organizations
- Mankal, on 10/27/2007, -3/+8Doesn't this more or less prove the falsehood of religion? I could understand them abandoning the idea of Limbo if say, God came down and was like "Yo guys, just got rid of Limbo. Gotta write it out" but for them to up and go "Ok, we're getting rid of Limbo. Change what you believe everybody!" just kind of takes the whole believe thing and throws it out the window. We are but mere mortals, how do we go about changing something as "other worldly" as limbo unless it doesn't exist?
- ateam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@ thecolor11
You said:
"I don't see what's so wrong with the Catholic church refining their beliefs. Just look at science; we do it all the time. Was light traveling at an infinite speed before we measured it? Did the electron suddenly jump into bound states when we discovered the atom wasn't made of a delicious dessert?"
If the broad studies labeled as "science" were based off an unchanging "holy text," as Catholicism is, then perhaps you'd have a valid point. But, unfortunately, you don't.
I can't help but let my imagination go wild with images of all of those bored-out-of-their-mind souls in Limbo disappearing upon the Pope's decision. So ridiculous... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I go to St. Pedophilius catholic school.
- modian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Harry Belafonte is gonna be pissed!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"Isn't it amazing that the Pope can just make an entire realm of non-existence disappear?"
The Pope clicks the heels of his ruby red slippers together and says
“There’s no place like Limbo. There’s no place like Limbo. There’s no place like Limbo." - jackhole, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4George Carlin was thirty years ahead of the Pope on this one.
- emiliogtz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Could it be a matter of time before they do the same about heaven and hell?
- jdh24, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Well now we have proof that the Pope can't talk to God, like the Church claims. If the Pope could talk to God, they wouldn't have gotten any ideas wrong.
- aresef, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7The inherent irony of this move is so amusing. The unchanging word of God just ain't what it used to be.
- Angmar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"The Catholic Church is not Christian"
Catholic are what all other Christians are based off of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Roman_Catholic_Church - grooviekenn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Pick & Choose
Pick & Choose
Amen - cambob76, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6That's what they get for making a bunny rabbit their leader.
- ElwoodHerring, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Oh - and the word you're looking for is "sense", not "since". Don'ty rely on spell checkers - learn English.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Now all we have to do is get them to apologize for ***** little boys, blaming the Jews for the Italians killing christ, and supporting the Nazis running concentration camps in WWII
- EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think the confusion here is caused by the difference between changing a religious interpretation (for example, the view that, due to our religion, we can harm/kill those who don't believe) because reason dictates otherwise and changing the actual state of the religious realm. Let me see if I can explain...
For example, a religion that had two Gods, and then spontaneously decided that one didn't exist and the other was actually a jelly donut would not be a logical religion to believe in. On a whim, they changed the core aspect of the actual belief's realm.
However, take that same example and modify it a bit. Say the leaders of this religion interpreted its texts to mean that you shouldn't eat carrots. Later, the leaders look at the text again and realize that it may not have meant what they thought and decree that carrots were never wrong to eat after all. This religion hasn't been made less believable by this change, as they made an honest mistake in interpretation.
The difference between the two is really in focus. A religion isn't put into question if they change what the FOLLOWER is supposed to do (as long as it's justified). However, changing what they're suppoed to BELIEVE (in this situation, believers are now supposed to recognize that an entire realm of the afterlife doesn't actually exist where before it did) does call it into question. A religion who does the latter needs a really good reason to make such an interpretive change, as they're changing not the actions that the followers should take as a response to their beliefs, but the beliefs itself.
That being said, I personally think it's good that the Catholic church is making this change. It's pretty obvious to those who know Catholic history that "Limbo" was added for entirely nonreligious reasons... so removal of it isn't a fundamental change in what's being believed but a correction on a blatently unsupported belief that no one should have accepted.
But if the above poster wanted to know why athiests find this change dishonest while hoping that religions would change in other aspects, hopefully this helps to explain. - enharmonix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Purgatory and Limbo are not exactly the same thing. Purgatory is where sinners who are not guilty of mortal sins go. It is basically giving your soul a little extra time before Judgment to really make up your mind which side you're on. People in Purgatory can go to Heaven or Hell. Limbo is where unbaptized souls who have *never* sinned go, almost entirely populated by kids who died at or prior to birth without ever doing anything wrong to merit going to Hell, or even Purgatory, but because they weren't baptized, they can't go to Heaven, either, but they have to go somewhere.
So yeah, Limbo seems pretty cruel, esp. for a Church that is anti-abortion (and even anti-contraceptive). Glad to hear them take a position on the subject. - EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5If I may help... Catholics aren't wacked, just influenced by a thousand or more years of deep corruption of the religion by people more interested in power than religion. They are taking steps (like this one) to correct it, but there's a LOT to correct. Like the current discussions between Muslim believers who are attempting to fix the inconsistencies that have brought about groups like Al-Quaeda, Catholics are just beginning to see the level at which the original religion has been modified for the pursuit of power... and it'll take a long time for them to fix, if they can even change the minds of those who believe that which should be changed.
- ElwoodHerring, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yes but...
If the Bible is supposed to be the word of god, and the pope is supposed to be infallible and *knows* what god intends, then surely he should just know? As somebody on this thread said earlier, if this pope is right that means all his predecessors are wrong. If god is so all-powerful then how come he can't get his message across to us miserable humans as to what he is actually all about? Does he really want us to continue fighting and killing each other over what he actually meant by every silly discrepancy that arises? Does he really want us to wage war after bloody war for thousands of years because we can't agree on what he wants of us? If the answer is yes, then he is a malevolent god. If no, then he is not omnipotent, and quite frankly, incompetent. - dBLiSS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@hipnerd
It's hard have a reasonable argument against religion because the people you are arguing with blindly follow and believe it without question to logic or reality. So you'll have to excuse the "ignorance" of the masses. Besides we have to make broad generalizations about particular religions because there are different rules attributed to which ever flavor of Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whichever you claim to blindly following (generally based on your birth place and the local people around you). So yes, please try to excuse the ignorance of the people that decided not blindly follow and believe in what amounts to non-sense and fairy tales. - EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I may have been taught incorrectly, but I was raised Catholic and I was taught that people held in limbo were held until the day of judgement, when they'd only then be judged whether they would go to heaven or hell. It's not quite eternity, but close enough.... but again, I may have been taught incorrectly. Many Catholic families don't really understand the belief, as it depends on the knowledge of who taught you etc... unless you seek out the source documents.
I never bought the idea though, it sounded a bit macabre for a God that wanted to teach us mercy and compassion. - pkulak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4They found overwhelming empirical evidence against it, I suppose.
- greymaxcat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7As a recovering catholic, this stupidity does not surprise me.
- DavidGX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Maybe people would stop hating on christians if they would leave everyone who's not a christian the ***** alone, and keep their beliefs to themselves and out of our courts/government/etc.
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