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117 Comments
- camelseye, on 07/13/2009, -9/+19Excellent observation fta--"“The real obstacle to peace is not a Jew building a settlement but the failure of the Palestinians to have a government. Is there a partner on the Palestinian side for peace talks? No.”
Among the Third Way moderates, the Palestinian people can find those who truly desire to build communities. The charities rarely assist these useful projects, and often rather end up funneling the money to assist in destructive propaganda and weapons shipments. - doctordbx, on 07/13/2009, -9/+18The true reason is that the Palestinian's brothers (Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, et al.) are doing little to discourage and much to encourage the perpetuation of the "Jerusalem myth". These people are war torn, battered and bash, have very few real friends, and are constantly being pushed into conflict with Israel by their so called brothers.
If the Arab League was serious about ending conflict, they would open their doors and offer citizenship to all Palestinians and provide them with everything they need to start a new life.
Not going to happen is it? - tzvika613, on 07/14/2009, -1/+10"How many people have actually died of starvation in Gaza?" - Here is a picture of Lauren Booth (Tony Blair's sister-in-law) who was on the first "Blockade Breaking" ships, in a Gaza grocery store in August, 2008
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n7RltmTdk-g/SM6c-NE5wHI/ ...
Here are some other pictures of "starvation" in the Gaza Strip:
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ... - tzvika613, on 07/13/2009, -2/+11The per capita income of the people in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank has decreased since the first Intifada and the isolation of those territories from employment opportunities and business relations between them and Israel.
The standards of the Palestinians in the disputed territories have suffered as a result of the decisions of the Palestinian leadership to initiate the Intifadas.
It is only going to be through increased day-to-day dealings between the Israelis and the Palestinians that the living standards of the Palestinians will improve. And a prospering Palestine living in peace next to Israel will likely lead to an increase in the quality of life for Israelis also.
It may nopt be the responsibility of Israel to raise the standards of the Palestinian people, but it very well may be in Israel's interest if those standards were raised. - tripwire45, on 07/13/2009, -6/+15The Palestinians aren't victimized by Israel. They are victimized by their "authority" (in this case, Fatah and Hamas). It's always been this way. Arafat was one of the most corrupt men who ever lived and the current Palestinian leadership is certainly no better.
- alanocu, on 07/12/2009, -11/+20Gaza on the Mediterranean, with an offshore natural gas resource worth an estimated $4 billion and with Palestinian statehood believed an imminent proposition, should be looking at the brightest possible future. Poverty and hopelessness rack Gaza and the standard explanation by many Arabs and Western media is to depict the Palestinians as in a permanent state of Israeli-inflicted victimhood. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Palestinians are to a large extent responsible for their own misfortunes.
- Deltron03030, on 07/13/2009, -1/+9FYI – there’s extremists on both side. I believe the settlements should stop and I think obamas approach to the situation is a good thing. But its not an “Apartheid Government.” You are completely wrong.
- DreadPirate, on 07/14/2009, -1/+9@Writie - "Don't you think that if Israel accepted the Arab League's offer as a basis for negotiation back in 2000, this issue would be resolved by now and Israeli coastline would be rivalling the Riviera in terms of glamour and wealth?" What about if Arafat had actually accepted Israel's peace offer in 2000, rather than starting the second intifada? That is just as valid a starting point, and actually holds the Palestinians accountable for their actions, something you and many others here on digg refuse to do.
- tomasII, on 07/13/2009, -3/+11And is it not true that other Muslim countries will not accept Palestinian refugees? Doesn't Egypt also prevent free movement of Palestinians. And yet Israel is always the scapegoat.
- DreadPirate, on 07/13/2009, -4/+12The Guardian is far from unbiased when it comes to anything related to Israel...
- tzvika613, on 07/14/2009, -1/+8As a supplement to the pictures of "starvation" in the Gaza Strip - Let it not be said that you can not find a pancake in Gaza:
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/aradestad/PlanetGazaSe ... - wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -3/+10"Why is it the Arab League's responsibility?"
900,000 Jews were expelled from the Arab countries after 1948. The total area of privately held land that they have to abandon is 5 times the area of Israel. Israel absorbed 600,000 of them, and today they and their descendants account for about half of all Israeli Jews. None of them live in refugee camps today.
There is no Jewish refugee problem today, because Israel absorbed them. Yet second and third generation of the Palestinian refugees are still living in refugee camps in Lebanon and other Arab countries. They are not granted citizenship, and are not given the same rights as those of the local populations, despite having lived there for generations. The only country that has granted citizenship to the Palestinian refugees within its borders was Jordan.
In 1948 the armies of 5 Arab states invaded Israel with the intent of "throwing the Jews into the sea", and divided up whatever land they could capture among themselves. As a result of this war, stared by the Arab states, two groups became refugees: 750,000 Palestinian Arabs and 900,000 Jews from Arab countries. The Arab League has never accepted any responsibility neither for the Jews it expelled, nor for integrating the Palestinian refugees into the states where they ended up. I guess the Arab League is not responsible for anything then, right? - tzvika613, on 07/14/2009, -1/+8Okay, all joking aside - are there any figures from a party that is not affiliated to either Israel or the PA (or Fatah or Hamas) that gives hard figures on starvation and/or malnutrition in the Gaza Strip?
- wpi97, on 07/14/2009, -1/+8"I think we will also find that other members of the int'l community have had contact with Hamas, but not openly."
So, you assertion that they are not talking to Hamas is wrong. The problem is not the unwillingness of Israel or the international community to talk to Hamas, the problem is Hamas being a terrorist groups, which commits mass murder of civilians as a matter of policy, and which refuses to accept Israel's existence even in principle.
"It might be inflammatory, but the parallels between taking civilian populations herding them into a space and then locking them down are strong, particularly when heavy guns are turned on them."
There are no parallels at all. Jews on German-occupied territories were rounded up and herded into the ghettos. The Arabs in Gaza were not.
Jews who were herded into the ghettos were unarmed civilians, who committed no crime. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and armed terrorist group, which deliberately tries to murder Israeli civilians, and which oppresses its own people.
The Nazis created the ghettos as a part of a campaign of extermination of Jews, Gypsies, and other "untermenschen". Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza in response to suicide bombings, shooting attacks, and rocket and mortar bombardment of its towns.
The Jews in the ghettos were dying by the thousands of disease and starvation, and were eventually deported to extermination camps, where millions more died. As far as I know nobody has died of starvation in Gaza, and no extermination of its people has taken place. What did take place, were military strikes on military targets, which, regrettably by inevitably, result in innocent bystanders getting killed.
Do you not see the difference between rounding up civilians based on their ethnicity for extermination and between blockading a hostile territory from which rockets rain on your towns? Damn right, I am offended!
"Concerning supplies, Israel is obliged by its own blockade to ensure supplies as did the Allies to Germany and Japan. It's a strange corner to have painted oneself into."
...huh? What in the world are you talking about? The US was obliged to supply Japan after Pearl Harbor?
The US and the Allies did supply West Germany and Japan _after_ they surrendered, not while the war was going on. And the war between Gaza and Israel is certainly still going on. And there is one side in this war which can stop it at any time. Guess which one it is. - wpi97, on 07/14/2009, -1/+8"I don't see the "rewards" for Palestinians. "
By rewards I mean the attention of the media, the international pressure on Israel, and the international aid to the Palestinians.
You said that Tibet has gained nothing by moderation, and you have a point. There is very little media coverage of the Chinese occupation of Tibet, there is virtually no international pressure on China to end its occupation of Tibet, and there is virtually no international aid going to Tibet.
Also consider the fact that Tibet was actually an independent country before it was occupied, while Gaza or the West Bank have never been independent. These were territories captured from Egypt and Jordan respectively, who had no intention of granting them independence. IMHO, the Tibetans have a much stronger claim to self-determination than the Palestinians do.
"Last time I looked the "international community" was still refusing to talk to Hamas, implicitly supporting the Gaza Ghetto and financing Israel's military."
You should look again. Some members of the "international community", like Syira, Iran, or Russia do talk to Hamas. And do you really find it strange that a government of a civilized nation may refuse to talk to a group of thugs who brainwash teenagers into blowing up pizzerias full of people?
I also find your comparison of Gaza to a ghetto extremely offensive. The Arabs of Gaza were not forcibly herded there for extermination. Gaza is a de facto independent territory, ruled by a terrorist group which is waging a war against Israel, and committing war crimes by deliberately targeting its civilians. Despite that Israel keeps supplying food and fuel to the population of Gaza. I don't recall the US supplying Japan or Britain supplying Germany during WWII.
Over 100,000 people died in the Warsaw Ghetto of disease and starvation even before the mass deportations to the death camps began. How many people have actually died of starvation in Gaza? - wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -1/+8"What has Tibetan moderation brought them?"
Clear conscience? Good karma?
On the other hand, what has Palestinian extremism brought them? The first intifada was largely non-violent. That resulted in the Oslo accords, the establishment of Palestinian self-rule, and a very real prospect of independence. The wave of Palestinian terrorism that followed resulted in the mess we see today.
But you are right about one thing, terrorism is the reason why the Palestinian cause makes front page news, while the Tibetan cause does not. It is very sad indeed that the "international community" rewards mass murder and completely ignores peaceful resistance. - foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -3/+10There is something to what you say. But no, the choice was not taken away from them. They made their choice and the nations of the word made theirs - not to deal with a government of thugs and terrorists, which is perfectly within their right. With this, the Palestinian electorate supposedly learned an important lesson: there are consequences to the choices one makes. Leading to the second lesson of democracy: if you don't agree with the government you have, change it. If you don't, then you're tacitly agreeing with the choices that government makes.
Yes, a democratically elected government reflects the choice of the people. And being democratically elected does not mean that you can do whatever you damn well please in the community of nations, like for example act as a child throwing tantrums. Something is expected as a quid-pro-quo in order to be recognized, and that something is good behavior.
Pass the waffles. - DreadPirate, on 07/13/2009, -6/+12sunsetprojects - I notice you also seem to have forgotten how when Israel withdrew from Gaza, one of the first uses the new territory was put to was as a launching platform for more rockets into Israel. Funny how that little detail always manages to escape your recollection...
- neozion, on 07/13/2009, -4/+10IMHO, the writer is a pragmatic. And most of the bleeding hearts here do not believe, or perhaps, avoid pragmatism. We all know that for 60 years, that conflict has resulted in great pain. For BOTH opponents. Yes, I assure you. Israelis also bleed blood and lose members of their family. But this author, as well as myself, choose not to dwell on things past.
Is it really more important to you bleeding hearts to be on the "victims" side and have an eternal david vs goliath (oh the irony) sympathizers sect that is simply obsolete to the resolution of this conflict? Or would you rather work on a long term solution? - foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -2/+8You going off the rail so soon? DreadPirate asked, clearly: "Name one "moderate" Palestinian leader of the last 40 years."
See there? "Palestinian leader". If you ask me "name the pope" and I say "Fungalicious McTyre the Thurd", yes, I gave you a name. but I did not name the pope. See how it works?
He was the President of the Al-Quds University. He is a peace activist. Does that make him a Palestinian leader? No, I don't think so. Otherwise we'd surely have heard of his moderate influence in the Palestinian political process.
Hopefully by now you have cooled down and untwisted the knot in your underwear of choice.
Btw: Yossi Sarid, for years head of the Meretz left wing party, doesn't seem to be on record calling Palestinians terrorists. He was the head of a major political party, a parlamentarian, at times a minister in the cabinet. That's, let me see...a leader. Not a president of a university. Or a one-time "PLO representative". His partner in left, Shulamit Aloni, I believe, is another example of someone that doesn't call Palestinians terrorists. Also a head of a political party, parlamentarian and at times a minister in the cabinet. I believe Benny Begin as well didn't like to call Palestinians terrorists, but I may be wrong there - he may well have done it at some point or another. But it might be worth exploring. - Stevanoski, on 07/13/2009, -7/+13Arafat was one of the worst mobster God Father types that could have ever been foisted upon Palestinians. Nice to see his Capo's have not let Arafat's lessons go to waste.
- foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -2/+7He was also demoted from the position by Arafat less than a year later. So ?
He is a peace activist. Not a Palestinian leader. - wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -2/+7"Removing the settlements from Gaza has derailed any chances for peace under the facade that Israel is taking the first steps while they desperately search for a peace partner."
Do you even understand what you are writing? - tzvika613, on 07/13/2009, -2/+7Democratic elections do not by themselves make for a democratic society or a civil society. (They are one of the ingredients, among which are independent press, independent trade unions, independent associations.) Wait until there have been a few democratic elections in which power shifts to opposing parties.
- wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -3/+8"Palestinians are being treated like a lower people by the israelis and it is a bit sicking."
Not true. There are 1.2 million Israeli Arabs who have Israeli citizenship and who have the same rights as all Israeli citizens, minus the responsibility of serving in the Army. The West Bank, on the other hand is a _disputed territory_ under Israeli military rule, and its Arab residents are not Israeli citizens.
This is totally different from South Africa, where the majority of citizens had limited rights because of the color of their skin.
You have to decide here. Either the Palestinians in the West Bank want Israeli citizenship, in which case the West Bank becomes a part of Israel, or they want independence, in which case they cannot have Israeli citizenship. You can't have both.
And Gaza has been de facto independent and completely free of Jews since 2005. - brimister, on 07/13/2009, -3/+8@quarando
We label Palestinian resistance as terrorism because it is terrorism. They don't fight with soldiers and uniforms, they put guns in childrens hands. They don't target military installations, they blow up night clubs and commuter buses, and more recently, fire unguided missiles into civilian populations without any regard for where they fall. That is the definition of terrorism. The only goal is to produce a constant state of fear among the civilian population to bring about political change.
When the Palestinian people can raise a government who can gather the will of the Palestinian people, end the fringe group strangle hold over political maneuver, and bring about a diplomatic approach with genuine good-will toward a peaceful resolution, then the 'resistance' can be legitmized (and the Palestinian people will have self-determination, and a partner for economic and other prosperities). The current goals, however, destruction of a more powerful neighbor, breeding a new generation of hatred and destruction and utter inability to compromise on ANY points toward peace will only yield the current situation. Isolation and Occupation when necessary.
And believe me, no one in Israel wants to spend their tax dollars and send their sons to occupy a foreign territory, but they see it as an absolute necessity given the power vacuum that exists there. - foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -4/+9He said leader. Not an activist.
- wpi97, on 07/14/2009, -1/+6@MrShreddington
The Palestinian Arabs who stayed in Israel are called Israeli Arabs. There are about 1.2 million of them, and they have Israeli citizenship and all the same rights as all other Israeli citizens. The only Israeli law that treats them differently is the one that exempts them from military service.
On the other hand, the Arabs living in Gaza and the Judea and Samaria (aka the West Bank) are not Israeli citizens, because these areas were placed under Israeli military rule after they were captured from Egypt and Jordan in the Six Day War of 1967. These areas, except for Jerusalem, were never formally annexed by Israel. Instead following the Six Day War Israel offered a land-for-peace deal to the Arab states, which was flatly rejected by the conference of the Arab League in Khartoum.
The fact is that the Palestinians in the West Bank could have lived freely, i. e. not under Israeli rule if their leadership did not pass up multiple opportunities for independence.
Gaza has been de facto independent since 2005, when Israel withdrew its forces and forcibly evicted its citizens from there. Unfortunately, after gaining control of the area, Hamas has chosen to turn it into a launching pad for attacks against Israeli civilians, instead of building infrastructure to improve the lives of their people.
The irony is that there was no need to fight for the dream of living in their homeland. They could have been living in their own state for the past 61 years by simply accepting the UN partition plan of 1948. - MacParrot, on 07/13/2009, -4/+9It's more along the lines of accept what is. Israel isn't going away. It's time to move on from pushing the Jews into the sea and move to build lives for the sake of your children. Turn a blind eye to the mistakes made by both sides in the past and move to actually creating a partnership with those who want to help but a still afraid of the sins of the past from both the Jews and the Palestinians.
The radical leaders of Islam do not have your best interests at heart but wish to continue to use you as cannon fodder against those they are too afraid of to confront directly - camelseye, on 07/14/2009, -0/+5Moderate Palestinian leader--
Salam Fayed ???
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/18/1953 ...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/1 ...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/842272.html - markgl, on 07/13/2009, -6/+11Good article. Makes sense that if they cannot get their own system inline then nothing can ever be accomplished.
- foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -1/+6Victims that don't accept their part in the problem remain just that. Victims.
The sooner the Palestinians notice that nothing will change without them changing, the better.
I place responsibility, and you in your platitude-filled world only see blame.
Too bad. With your approach, nothing will ever change. - fxmulder, on 07/13/2009, -1/+6Its a shame that there are so many people who don't like Israel, and would want them to fail. I just don't understand it? And they bury you. How can we fix something when it seems everyone wants Israel to fail?
- DreadPirate, on 07/13/2009, -4/+9Oldhick - So you're okay with Egypt restricting the travel of the Palestinians just as much as Israel does? Tell me, do the words double standard mean anything to you?
- wpi97, on 07/14/2009, -1/+5"Equal rights for "Arab Israelis"... good one. "
Yes, it is a good one. Israeli Arabs live in Israel, own houses, businesses, attend universities, vote and get elected into public offices. They are represented in all levels of the government, the judiciary, and the parliament.
This does not mean there is no discrimination or resentment. But there is equality under the law for all Israeli citizens, and when anyone's rights are violated there are numerous human rights groups ready to take up their cause.
"And now suddenly the Arab League was the representative leadership of the Palestinians during the 60's and had the authority and the right to make their choices for them?"
In 1948 the UN passed a partition plan to create a Jewish and Arab states in what was left of the British Mandate Palestine, after the purely Arab state of Jordan was carved out. Immediately after that the armies of 5 Arab states: Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq invaded the newly independent Israel.
As a result, 750,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees. The vast majority of them left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier, because they were told to get out of the way by the invading Arab armies. So, yes the Arab states are responsible for the fact that there are Palestinian refugees and for the fact that Palestinian Arabs do not have a state.
And if you want to talk about the 1960's, I hate to break it to you, but there was no Arab state of Palestine at that time. Or ever. Between 1948 and 1967 Gaza and the West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan respectively. So yes, the governments of Egypt and Jordan were effectively the leadership of the Palestinians during the 60's.
"The solution has NEVER been for them to just go somewhere else. "
No, it has not. The two-state solution was proposed, even mandated, back in 1948. Too bad the Palestinian leadership and the Arab states rejected it and started a war with the expressed purpose of throwing the Jews into the sea. Too bad the Arab league flatly refused to negotiate in 1967, which may have resulted in the territories going back to Egypt and Jordan. Too bad Arafat refused an offer of statehood in 2000. An nothing in the last 1, 5, 10, or 60 years changes that. - inactive, on 07/16/2009, -0/+4beautifulady stated "what purpose is served by the withholding of food supplies?" This purposely makes it sound as if Israel is barring food from Gaza.
Of course Israel has to search sacks of food.
The sneaky back-stabbing Palestinians already use marked ambulances to smuggle weapons and move terrorists around (war crime).
They already deliberately move their own women and children into the line of fire for propaganda purposes (war crime).
They dig tunnels to sneak into Israel and kidnap teen citizen-soldiers (war crime).
Why would they think twice about smuggling weapons in with food? - camelseye, on 07/14/2009, -2/+6"a prospering Palestine living in peace next to Israel " Dream on!
They will still be spending most of their money on propaganda and weapons if Hamas or Fatah are in power. They will be sitting beside Israel--closer than ever to Tel Aviv too--hosting others who wants to revel in the proximity with them...and planning and carrying out attacks.
Look, I have nothing against the Palestinian people. I have cried for them. They are pawns used by those who hate Israel. Many of them are just normal people who want to live their lives. Money needs to be spent spreading truth among them, building communities, offering ways to help them live among and alongside Israeli Jews in peace. I hate to be a prophet of doom, but peace does not lie in giving them a separate country. The Palestinian people need to help root out the violent, murderous members of their society and focus on building and clean water and sewage...etc.
Yes, Israel should have been/should be building their communities in Israel not in Palestine. - foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -1/+5"I'm not sure how a civilian population is supposed to change the government in Gaza" - shall we go over the number of successful (in the sense of effecting a change of government) popular revolutions along history?
"Incidentally, I don't believe individuals are tacitly responsible for their government" - what you personally believe is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Democracy as a form of government makes provision for the people to wrestle control of a government if they feel it ceases to represent their best interests. Not doing so is partly an admission of agreement, therefore.
"Glad" to see you've abandoned your brief journey into reality and went back to your usual platitudes. At least you're consistent. - TetchyTony, on 07/13/2009, -6/+10A few years back, I was a guest of Israelis, and was much impressed - not least by their security. Years before, my family were part of the occupation of Arabs. They cleverly tried to knife my father in uniform, but stopped at once when they saw my mother was pregnant (with my brother) - I saw it all. This is a frightful clash of different civilizations. Do not comment unless you have been there.
- wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -4/+8" As long as there is no unified leadership there could be no peace."
I would add that as long as there is no unified leadership willing to peacefully coexist with Israel, there can be no peace. - wpi97, on 07/14/2009, -1/+5Millions of Palestinians have already been living in various Arab countries for generations. Most of the people living in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, etc. who call themselves Palestinians have never actually set foot in West Bank, Gaza, or Israel.
For example, in Lebanon the Palestinians are effectively confined to the refugee camps. They are not granted citizenship, they are barred from holding many jobs and from getting education, and they are forced to live in poverty. If they had already lived there for generations, why not give them Lebanese citizenship and absorb them into the Lebanese society?
Here's a side note for comparison. After capturing the West Bank in 1967 Israel has built 7 universities there. There were none before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank#Higher_educ ...
Israel absorbed 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries, and neither they nor their descendants are living in refugee camps today. Why couldn't the Arab states have done the same for their Palestinian brethren? Why is it that the Arab states are much more comfortable sending money to the families of suicide bombers, rewarding mass murder, than actually helping Palestinians build better lives for themselves?
By the way, are you aware that Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have expelled all Palestinians living within their borders in 1991, because their leaders supported Saddam Hussein? Most of these Palestinians ended up in Iraq, where they are facing persecution now, from their fellow Iraqi Arabs. - wpi97, on 07/15/2009, -1/+5"It's still a prison that is under total Israeli control, whether by sea, air or land."
First, Gaza is not under Israeli control. Otherwise the presence of Hamas there and the rockets flying into Israeli civilian populations would be very hard to explain.
Second, Israel imposed the blockade on Gaza in response to Hamas rocket attacks attacks and cross-border raids, like the one in which Gilad Shalit was captured, who by the way is still being held without access to the Red Cross in violation of international law.
The sequence of events is very clear here. Israel left Gaza. Hamas took it over and launched a wave of attacks against Israel. Israel imposed a blockade. Get it?
"They parted with those settlements because it was politically expedient for them "
Forcibly removing 8,000 of their own citizens, causing a rift in their own society, and putting southern Israeli towns in the path of Hamas rockets was "politically expedient"? You, sir, are delusional.
"...which continue to grow despite international condemnation and being just plain illegal."
Are you saying that Israelis living in the West Bank are not allowed to have children? As far as the legality of the settlements, where did you get your law degree, if I may ask?
"Israeli settlements on the West Bank beyond the Green Line border are considered by some legal scholars to be illegal under international law.[66][67][68][69] Other legal scholars[70] including Julius Stone,[71] have argued that the settlements are legal under international law, on a number of different grounds." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank#Settlements ...
There seems to be a bit of a disagreement of the subject among the experts. - DreadPirate, on 07/13/2009, -6/+10Name one "moderate" Palestinian leader of the last 40 years. Just one that at one time or another hasn't called for "Death to Jews" or "Death to Israel" and then we can discuss what Israel has or has not done to them.
- foopirata, on 07/13/2009, -1/+5Oh, and....Google is a lovely thing:
http://digg.com/world_news/Israel_Mounts_Third_Day ... - "...with Hamas since January 2006, when it was democratically elected on a political platform. "
http://digg.com/world_news/UN_People_in_Gaza_Are_N ... - "...to join forces with the hardline yet democratically-elected Hamas"
Your words. - wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -5/+9"Any nation or people that is supressed is going to ignore the moderate voice and move to extremes"
Really? Then why are the Tibetans not blowing up buses full of people in Beijing? Unlike Palestine, Tibet was actually a country, and it has been occupied by China for about half a century.
"there is not room for moderation for the palestinian, the ocupation and the further alienation of a whole people only discourages the moderate voice."
Then why has Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 only lead to more violence against Israeli civilians?
"The only chance israel has to win end the violence would be to raise the stands or the palestinian people up to that of its would people, like it or not this is an occupation, and alienating people is not going to win their sympathy."
So how exactly would this work? Israel has to ignore the attacks on its civilians while building up the Palestinian infrastructure?
Don't you think that when Israel left Gaza, that would have been a good time for the Palestinians there to start building a better life for themselves, instead of firing rockets into Israeli towns? Think how much international aid would have been pored into Gaza, if only Hamas hasn't turned it into a launching pad for rockets?
Don't you think that if Arafat had agreed to Barak's offer of independence in 2000, and actually managed this state well, the Palestinians could have been much better off today? The proposed Palestinian state included Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus! If the Palestinians gave up violence and stared building hotels, roads, and restaurants, they could have been richer than the UAE from tourism alone.
I don't believe it is up to Israel to raise the "stands" of the Palestinians. I think it is up to themselves to realize that peaceful coexistence is more profitable than blowing up pizzerias full of people, and to start working to build better lives for themselves. - wpi97, on 07/13/2009, -2/+6"This looks like a strategy straight out of Avigdor Leiberman's guide book."
Have you actually read Lieberman's proposals? One thing he got slammed for was a proposal to exchange some parts of Israel proper populated mainly by the Israeli Arabs for some of the areas of the West Bank populated by Israelis. I. e. some settlement blocks in the West Bank become part of Israel, while some parts of Israel populated by Arabs become a part of the Palestinian state? Oh, the horror! \s - Maddoktor2, on 07/13/2009, -3/+7As long as the Hamas Charter calls for the complete and utter destruction of Israel and all the Jews in it, Israel has every right and responsibility to protect its citizens from terrorist organizations like Hamas, and will continue to do so.
That's the starting point - get rid of Hamas, and peace will be possible, but not until then. - DevilInPgh, on 07/13/2009, -8/+12But what caused the fence (wall only applies to 2% of the entire route of the barrier) to be built? Was there one before the Palestinians went on their orgy of terror?
- ml4rocky, on 07/12/2009, -13/+17NO comments yet because there's no reason for a comment. Nobody's asking a question. It's simple. The bad Arabs and the good Arabs fight each other. We already know the answer: If any one of them gets hurt, it will be blamed somehow or other on Israel. So, I'm going back to eat and staying out of the way of fighting Arabs. Please don't blame ME for anything later. Just let them do what they feel like doing. That's so easy. Just be ready for somebody in the Arab press, like the NYT, to ask you an insulting question about why YOU started the fight.
- inactive, on 07/16/2009, -0/+4Please provide link that says that Israel is currently preventing food from entering Gaza.
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