What is Digg?115 Comments
- nfulton, on 10/12/2007, -13/+51$ Spent On Iraq War: 400,000,000,000
US Soliders Disabled: 150,000
US Soldiers Killed: 3000
IRAQI'S Killed 600,000+ (est by Lancet Medical Journal who interviewd doctors in Iraq which seems a more accurate source than US or Iraqi governments )
Iraqi's Fleeing Iraq Every Day 3,000
Being deceived by my president into a war against a country that wasn't a threat to the US when terrorists _who had attacked us_ were on the loose.
Paying people to torture and kill Iraqi's for no good reason
Seeing my nation hopelessly divided and my constitution destroyed
PRICELESS
(When can the trials for "high crimes and misdemeanors" start?) - Djerrid, on 10/12/2007, -5/+40Inaccurate my ass. If you're looking for "relevant context" in a quote, how's this?
"Imbascini said he amputated the genitals of one or two men every day." - Eliminator, on 10/12/2007, -6/+37I respect the people serving out country, but Iraq was not threatening my freedom to express myself.
- sufferwell, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33I have PTSD and I can assure you it's truly disabling,
to live a normal day is impossible, one flashback of a traumatic experience and your curled up in a fetal position under a table or in a corner.
Therapy can be expensive and if you cannot afford it you're lost...
Just speaking about it is causing me stress
This war is messing up peoples lives severely - silenceHR, on 10/12/2007, -7/+33"Agree, title is lame. Of course people will apply for 'free' money when all one has to do is say they've been traumatized."
you are ***** moron. i am not american i am certainly don't support war in Iraq, but those men need help. noone wants to have PTSD...
war in my country ended over a decade ago and our vets are still committing suicides due to PTSD. my ex's father can't get out of bed without 5 different pills... and so on...
you should be ***** ashamed. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21If any homeless Iraq vets are reading this, and located within commuting distance of Patrick AFB, I've got a spare bedroom here waiting for you. Thank you all for your service.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -11/+29I just met a Marine who did 2 tours of Iraq in Falliujah. Has PTSD, saw a lot of messed up stuff. It's a terrible thing all this happened for nothing.
- nfulton, on 10/12/2007, -6/+23You are insane if you think waging a war against a country that was NEVER a threat to us based on lies (as Downing Street Memos demonstrate and as Powell has now admitted) is worth disabling 150,000 US soldiers, killing 3000 more, and killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's.
That's like saying "Well SURE I burned my neighbors house down, and it was kind of my fault, and I kind of did it on purpose, but it ONLY killed lots of people in my family and in their family too." - raskalz, on 10/12/2007, -13/+29And who is going to give mental/physical care for millions of people in Iraq, who are living in total hell?
- nfulton, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18Yeah, that TOTALLY makes sense.
Don't talk about why these men were injured
Don't try to prevent more injuries
Don't prosecute the guys who got them injured
Just "support the troops"
Screw that. I support the troops by demanding they come home and demanding the bastards that got them hurt tried, convicted, jailed for life. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15I'm not joking or beng dramatic either. Shoot me an email to zap -at- zaphodforpresident -dot- com to work out the details.
- raskalz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16@Jeveran
so it is ok to invade other country, destroy the infrastructure, leave millions of people in misery, and it is not US problem? - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13"It's just unwinnable if the people you try to liberate just can't take the ball."
Can't take the ball?!
650,000 civilians dead because we felt like playing ball over there...
They didn't ask for the ball... They have asked us to take our ball and go home... Begged us at this point....
Are you seriously blaming the Iraqi people for the nightmare we brought to their country? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11@pleasejustdie I saw the video of American soldiers shooting unarmed and wounded people rather than take them to the hospital. It was on youtube at one time, probably on liveleak now. So how many Iraqis get the "He's dead now" treatment?
- kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11650,000 Iraqi dead is currently the only statisticly supported number out there.
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health's peer reviewed, scientific study (oct 06): http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1012/dailyUpdate.html
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=FA0E16FF3B540C728DDDA90994DE404482
I'd love to see other peer-reviewed, scientific studies on Iraqi casualties (really!). If you think the numbers are wrong lets see what you've got. (per ethergnat.) - nfulton, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Yep
- baltimoretim, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10This is only one of the many reasons we Americans should oppose the current Bush/McCain "surge" plan that will put 30,000 more soldiers in the line of fire. Support your troops: bring them home. And for a start, don't send any more into that meat grinder.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@seanrbaker
So... because you reference a government website, it MUST only contain hard facts yes? Oh, like the ones about WMDs in Iraq that used to float around? - tkcom, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10one word comes to mind: disposable
- Leadhyena, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"152,669 veterans filed disability claims after fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan."
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war, 153,303 were wounded in Vietnam. I mean, wow. - paladin144, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@xen0blue:
I think the point of that comment was to point out how much companies like Halliburton have gained from the War. Meanwhile, our soldiers pay the costs. Doesn't seem fair to me, but then again I'm not a corporatist.
edit: looks like I was scooped by a guy named beotch. Charming. :-) I agree, but I don't know if ***** a few pennies will help. "Trickle down economics" always sounded like getting pissed on by rich folk to me. - neuropsychguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I sure hope you are trolling and don't really believe that.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"his is not the subject to bash our administation at the expense of our soldiers"
Equating our soldiers with the government and its corporate backers is a fascist sentiment. Our solders swear an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, not a king. And they fight to protect our freedom as citizens to hold our government accountable for its actions.
Trying to silence political dissent by accusing critics of our policies of not supporting the troops is utterly inconsistent with the very values they are supposed to defend.
Not to mention the fact that a majority of the troops themselves oppose the war. I guess they are traitors, too who don't support themselves? - glmory, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3sometimes true, sometimes not. When I graduated high school in the spring of 2001 it looked like the world would be at peace and joining the military was a safe way to spend a few years. Anyone who joined then really had no choice but to go to iraq. Should they refuse to go they would at the very least be put in jail.
- bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I'm saying this because it is the reality of the situation, and it's imperative that we don't forget it:
The Military-Industrial Complex
It's time we said no... The world would be a lot better off (and the USA will economically be a lot better off) developing energy and medicinal research than continuing this absurd and publically costly (though corporately profitable) money shuffling and war mongering. - Benzido, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Screw supporting the troops. I support human life. It sucks that 3000 troops died, but it sucks 200 times more that 600,000 Iraqis have died. On average, each troop has killed 200 Iraqis. Even on the most conservative estimates, each troop has killed on average 50 Iraqis. Most of those Iraqis are civilians. It is nothing less than a disaster and I don't think we should support any part of it, either the Iraqi deaths or the US deaths.
I don't think the troops should be punished for the decisions of the commanders, and I know that most troops join up in a good-faith effort to protect their country. But this meme, 'I support the troops' is always meant to shut out criticism of the war and the way it is undertaken. - seanrbaker, on 10/12/2007, -21/+24The disrespect being shown these guys is disgusting... that their sacrifice is being so perverted to serve a mindset is disturbing. I frankly find it a little funny that we're worried that 150,000 returning troops filed for disability... especially when that's ~100,000 MORE than the number who've even been injured in the GWOT (http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/amwars.pdf). For those not familiar, that link is called a source document, one which includes actual facts, not heart-wrenching anecdotes of incidents which reduce our ability to judge rationally what we're reading [for more on this, see Scientific American or do a Google Scholar search for information about emotion's impact on our decisions].
...
Back to the facts, YES, lots of soldiers have been hurt serving in Iraq - 50,000+ as of Sept 30 '06, but what this article is ignoring is how many soldiers with existing disabilities got out (many retired) during this same period. If you can find historical records (again /source documents/), you will likely find that in any given year something like 100,000+ retirees / separated servicemembers file similar disability claims. That these veterans happened to have also served in Iraq / Afghanistan is NOT CONNECTED to their current condition; it is coincidental to it (and props to them for having stuck it out with their condition[s] while downrange).
And again, YES, there have been a number of amputees coming back from OEF/OIF, but for one: they are receiving (literally) world-renowned care from the best in the field; and two: the 1,502 100% disabled veterans are by and large NOT amputees. In many cases, they're 20+ year veterans who have destroyed their knees and hurt their backs such that they "can't" (from a medical advice perspective) work a job requiring manual labor. Many (if not most) of these will go on to lead what you would consider to be a very normal and successful second career in the civilian sector.
I genuinely feel bad for everyone killed during these operations and want only the best for all the rest affected (injured, PTSD, etc.), but this down-with-Bush-save-the-soldiers-ignore-the-facts BS racket has got to stop. These guys made sacrifices for your freedom to express yourself, but please, give them enough respect for what they did to stick to the facts and stop twisting every number you find. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -3/+62beotch,
I am an uncompromising opponent of the War in Iraq and our policies there, and, as a pacifist, I promote alternatives to military service for young people who want to make a difference. I also am appalled by the horrors and abuses that have occurred in this conflict. As a four-year veteran of the Israeli military (even though I am a US citizen), I have seen first-hand how ugly, futile and counter-productive war is, and I deal with the personal psychic toll of my experiences every day, even twenty five years after my service.
However, it is quite true that our medical personnel in the US military care for the wounded regardless of what side they are on; this is a long, honorable tradition of those who join to heal war's wounds, and it does no one any good to mix the brutality of some soldiers up with the selfless sacrifice of doctors, nurses, EMTs and other health professionals who operate under difficult conditions and often save the lives of the very people who fire directly upon them.
There is little light in the dark of battle, but medical personnel provide what they can, as humanely and fairly as they are able - and US military field medical personnel are among the best and most humane in the world.
We have a lot to answer for, and many things that make me embarrassed to be an American these days, but the actions of our medics on the battlefield is not one of them.
Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You don't cure hate with more hate. Only someone who has never experienced war first-hand, on either side, as a participant or victim, would ever characterize what modern high-velocity weaponry does to human flesh as 'little cuts and bruises", nor what the horrors of combat do to the human psyche as "whining".
Two wrongs do not make a right. As a strong, unequivocal opponent to this war, and as a veteran opposed to all wars, I never forget that every casualty, no matter what side of the rifle they were on, is someone's son or daughter, husband or wife, sister or brother, friend or lover.
War is the enemy, and old men who send young men and women off to foreign lands to fight them for their mendacious goals. All soldiers are also personally responsible for how they behave in war.
It is too bad so many here have been indoctrinated in Christian binary thinking, where everything is black and white, Good vs. Evil, Us vs. Them. It is possible to do terrible things and still deserve compassion when suffering; and it is nobler to care for all than to rub one's hands in glee when the "bad guys" flesh is ripped and they bleed the same color blood as the good guys do.
Funny that I don't need a religion in order to have a heart, and that so many self-righteous patriots and Christians fail to find theirs amidst the pontificating. - paladin144, on 10/12/2007, -11/+14@seanrbaker:
You are a well spoken psychopath, Mr. Baker. Kudos for doing your best to defend your dear buddy George from all those meanies like Cindy Sheehan. How dare they have a peaceful ideology?!! What gives them the right to speak out against tyranny?!! Oh, right, that damn First Amendment thing. Well, we'll soon be rid of that, won't we, Mr. Baker. Your buddy Bush will make sure of that.
Using examples (inflated? probably. visceral? definitely.) to prove the point that this war is insane and pointless is apparently not okay with you. Yet literally sacrificing their bodies and their lives in order to wage this psychotic war is just ***** great, eh? Well ***** you, psychopath. I've had enough of your fascist *****, and I will not be cowed by the likes of you.
Meanwhile, I was reading the article and I almost puked my ***** guts out when I got to this paragraph:
"I walk into the operating room and the general surgeons are doing their work and there is the body of this Navy SEAL, which is a physical specimen to behold," he told IPS. "And his abdomen is open, they're exploring both intestines. He's missing both legs below the knee, one arm is blown off, he's got incisions on his thighs to relieve the pressure on the parts of the legs that are hopefully gonna survive and there's genital injuries, and you just want to cry."
I don't have words.
Well, okay, I had words a while ago. I wrote an insane, drooling, ***** of a rant about the Iraq War and other, related insanity. Check it out here if you are as pissed as I am: http://weblog.timoregan.com/2006/12/i-cant-*****-wait-until-world-ends.html
I hope most of you are able to see that people like Mr. Baker are scared, no terrified! of the truth, because the truth is that this war is a colossal waste of human life. And what have we gained from it? NOTHING. But Mr. Baker's buddy Bush gained a lot from it, didn't he? Managed to get reelected because of it. Well, I'm sure the SEAL on the operating table will take great solace from that fact. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5The point is that those two companies have benefited greatly by usurping the will of the people, so the least they could do is ***** a few pennies down.
- kaskarn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Ok that's pretty bad stuff. As a citizen of a small country I however hope that if World War III starts and a crazy dictator invades any huge free area, the US won't stay out of it and will help the free world instead of isolating itself because of the prospect of high casualties.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Dugg down for poorly-disguised Evangelical propaganda.
Filling soldiers' heads full of ***** isn't going to help them.
Why is it European militaries don't have these religious problems? - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2So let me get this straight, "Sinai", you claim to have as a friend a con-man and liar who is supposedly bilking the government out of large sums of money and robbing them of resources needed to help genuinely damaged soldiers?
And this says what, exactly, about the credibility of someone who has friends like this? We should believe someone with values like yours why, exactly?
Spread your manure somewhere else, buddy. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm sorry, who should be held to account for this if not the current Administration?
Let me guess, you want us to blame....Bill Clinton. No, no, wait for it.....Jimmy Carter. Yeah, it's all Carter's fault. - littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6HEY! What are you all talking about! The Decider CARES about our Troops! And so do the Multinational Corporations that form The Military Industrial Complex! I'm sure ALL of these men and women will get all the help they need! ....... NOT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdvTN1PI-sM - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2mclumber1, I am an American, and was commenting on the people in my country, including most of the war's defenders here, who call themselves "Christians" and talk a lot about "Christian values" as the foundation of America, and then hypocritically show how little they follow the principles of Jesus.
It is odd for you to suggest that, when talking about American policy regarding the war in Iraq, that you would expect me to launch a tirade against Muslim hypocrisy. There is plenty of that, and I have commented extensively about it when appropriate, using Saudi Arabia's brutal regime as an example of a religious state governed by religious law, and its medieval punishments - ironically, a government the US supports and whose behavior it condones.
You are just another knee-jerk apologists for all things Christian and hater of all things Muslim, and rather than deal with the actual issue we are talking about, you just lurk around so that whenever anyone says a critical word about Christianity, you can try to change the subject to Islam.
Your type is all over the Ellison submissions, telling everyone how, in Muslim countries, a Christian would not be able to swear in on a Bible - seemingly suggesting that we adopt the same authoritarian, discriminatory policies here.
I don't understand the logic of those who put the "support the troops" magnets (made in China, BTW) on their gas-guzzling SUVs, and then complain about our civil liberties and talk about how liberals would be round up and shot in a Muslim fundamentalist nation. It almost sounds like you wish we had that kind of government here, only a Christian flavor.
We are talking here about American soldiers, American policy, and American social attitudes. Whining about "why don't you diss the Ayrabs" just makes you sound like a racist. - glmory, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Now that the upper classes have abandoned the military, it is almost certainly true.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yes, my point was that Halliburton and the rest of the war profiteers are making a fortune, an illegal one in some cases, yet they feel no need to help the troops that did the fighting for them. I mean, at least help those 1,000 homeless vets get back on their feet?
- paladin144, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5@DogHumpsMonkey
***** you for calling me a hypocrite when I never said or implied that any sort of distortion was okay. You're damn right distortions and lies got us into Iraq, and I conceded that these numbers sound inflated, but where is ABSOLUTE PROOF that these numbers are false? You and the other Bush apologists (easily identifiable because they start out, "I'm not a big fan of Bush..." and then proceed to attack anyone who disagrees with him) are obviously trying to discredit these numbers, but you haven't succeeded yet. If you have proof, I would love to see it.
I love how you attack me for daring to mention Cindy Sheehan's name. As if it isn't ***** relevant, you piece of *****. Go on, defend the war and the president, but don't hide behind the idea of accuracy in reporting. If you're a goddamn neocon, just say so. I know you and seanrbaker are not just concerned citizens, hoping to heal the world and promote constructive discourse. Your first sentence was "Are you off your ***** meds?" and then proceeded to call me a hypocrite with NO proof. No, you're serving a hidden agenda. That much is obvious.
I've hung around these forums a lot, and whenever a story that is incredibly damaging to the Bush administration and the web of lies that keeps us in Iraq, I see a bunch of people like you pop out of the wordwork. First you say how concerned you are for the troops, then you say something like, "We need to put aside the Bush bashing and focus on the real heroes. The troops." Well, WHO THE ***** IS PUTTING THE TROOPS IN DANGER?!! To claim that blaming Bush is not relevant to the discussion is, first of all, insane, and secondly, extremely ***** disingenuous. I can't think of anything MORE relevant than Bush's lies and failures. And, if you're truly concerned about the troops, you'll do everything necessary to get them out of Iraq. We should have never sent them there. And the people responsible need to meet the same fate as Saddam. - siszam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2My son didn't sign up for this. He signed up to defend America not illegally invade a foreign country that did not threaten America. See, Bush lied and lied trying to justify this occupation but can't. Meanwhile soldiers either go to war or go to jail for years. I can't blame the soldiers for doing either. The government broke their side of the contract. If you want to be angry with someone be angry with the government. Imagine signing up for college money and thinking in the remote chance America is invaded you might have to fight, then your president loses his mind. The next thing you know you're being sacrificed for no reason.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2siszam, it is too bad you are an example of someone who ceases to think whenever Christianity is criticized. I did not claim that all Christians support the war, so you erect a straw man in my place. I suggest you devote more attention to holding your fellow Christians to account when they act immorally and unethically, and when they pursue an end-justifies-the-means strategy to promote their religion at the expense of the rest of us. Stop attacking a small minority that has no representation in this country, start paying attention to the overwhelming power fundamentalist Christians are accumulating in this country.
If it distresses you that people like me look all around them and see Christian hypocrisy and hypocritical Christians, perhaps you should look at your brethren and wonder why that is.
Don't preach ***** Jesus to me, I live a more moral and ethical life with greater integrity than any "Christian" I know, and I don't have the cover of someone to "forgive my sins", I am responsible for my own actions. Go clean your own gilded house before you have the hubris to come to the beggars outside the door and criticize us for not bowing down to your corrupt leaders. - Mworthin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Anyone remember how Agent Orange was NOT the cause of all the probs that Nam Vets had upon their return.
Cannon fodder is much less important than huge Halliburton profits...
Same old story folks.
What are you going to do about it? - siszam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You can't compare war to fighting fires. War is almost always avoidable. Unless someone is bombing the U.S. or dropping from planes for hand to hand combat we don't have to go to war. One terrorist attack, which the government allowed if not orchestrated, does not make a reason for war. The answer to thousands dead is not hundreds of thousands more disabled and dead. No sane person would think that way. War should always be a last resort.
- neuropsychguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sinai probably isn't lying. There are a lot more people taking advantage of disability than we would like to believe but they still are a minority. Some people will always try to take advantage of whatever they can.
- Habemus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3According to your own source, the coalition forces are only responsible for 30% of the "650,000" deaths (which is highly inflated due to counting the same person multiple times) with the insurgents responsible for the other 70%. It's like blaming the Allies in WWII for all the deaths in Europe, including the deaths of the Jewish civilians in Auschwitz.
http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html - neuropsychguy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's not hard, you just talk about father-raping and mention "Alice's Restaurant" to the shrink.
- macewan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Bush is truly an American WMD. I thought he was a ***** for being on vacation during 9/11 when he had been briefed about the possibility of such an attach only weeks before. But with Katrina, Corporate give-outs, the Osama hunt going no where and then Iraq. Seriously, this man isn't fit to run a Block Busters store. We went to having money to spare before he took office to being - is it hundreds of billions or more - in debt. Cheney & Rove leaking sensitive data left and right.
I really hope and pray the group that took control today is able to successfully help turn America around. - siszam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2rationalist, for someone with rational in your name you aren't. Not all Christians support the war and using your bigoted hate against Christians to justify your point negates everything you said. Idiot.
- neuropsychguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here are the numbers that should be compared to the Vietnam Statistic: 3,003 dead. 22,565 wounded in action, of which 10,107 were unable to return to duty within 72 hours (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003 ) - these are for U.S. troops.
2,422 of the 3,000 U.S. deaths are from hostile fire. -
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